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Keralabrethren.net: Youth Forum: Other Tongue 3

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# 00101 :  Other Tongue 3
Dear Readers, Other Tongue This is in continuation of "Other tongue" posted by Bejoyaranmula and also of "Other Tongue 2." Shalom malekim!!!
Post by : George P. Koshy  View Profile    since : 30 Jan 2006


Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 2:20:05 PM Close
Dear 'Ajax,' Part 1/2

I wrote this on 27 Jan 2006. I appreciate your postings and thought to use it to make my position clear on a debate on any subject and it is applicable to this day. I cannot say about the future. On 30 Nov 2005 18:05:17 ‘sharedconcept’ challenged me for a debate in Kerala. This he did in a manner of ‘progressive revelation’ of speaking in tongue. Why I say it was a progressive revelation? On 30 Nov 2005 00:33:58 he wrote that he would be in Kerala during December and express a desire to meet with me. There was no indication of anything other than just meeting. When I replied in the negative on 30 Nov 2005 10:00:12, then and then only he wrote that the reason to meet me in Kerala was to have a debate, so he “can come out in the open.” The phrase he used was, “In that way we both can come out in the open.” I don’t have to come out in the open, because I am in the open. Only a person who uses a mask has to be unmasked to be in the open. He also added, “I will even pay for the entire expense attached with the debate.” When I wrote that it would be at least $10,000 plus my fee, he is asking me to bear part of the expenses. After writing about my fee, I also wrote that if he is interested, we could have a dialog on 1 Corinthians 14. This was in place of his proposed debate. He has not indicated any interest in a dialog on the scriptures, but is very much interested to establish teachings based on his personal experience. When he is refusing a dialog on the subject in which he was eager to debate, I opened a thread and invited him to join me for a dialog. It is titled, “Speaking In Tongues As Taught In 1 Corinthians.” He has not accepted my invitation, yet. Please allow me to say “no” to your proposal of a debate, also. (You may see that I answered differently to ‘sharedconcept. The later change in my position was written on 30 Jan 2006 and I ask him for a fee, because the debate is for the sole purpose of satisfying his demented ego.)...

(To be cont. part 2/2)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 2:21:08 PM Close
Dear 'Ajax,' Part 2/2

...I am willing to have a dialog with a brother in Christ about the scriptural truths. I will have a debate with an unbeliever or an apostate. If I do, it will be not for money, it is in the defense of my faith, as commanded in the scriptures, for the glory of my Lord and God. Thank you for your offer to pay your mite! I hope you were using a little humor. So I use it in humor.

You asked a few questions on your posting on 26 Jan 2006 19:22:53. Let me address them in brief. This is my answer: When strange doctrines are placed before believers to create confusion and/or deviation from the truth, they are to be answered. That is why I try to give answers on this forum. In answering, I try to take the “high way” (some have accused me of this with sarcasm, already) that is already made known through the Word of God by the Holy Spirit.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 2:23:23 PM Close
Dear 'sharedconcept,'

On 26 Jan 2006 11:17:31 ‘sharedconcept’ wrote, “Who is this elect lady?…Brother GPK, Please do not be so dogmatic about the correct identity of the ‘lady.’” --- In earlier postings to justify the use of a false name, ‘sharedconcept,’ he used the lack of names of the authors of Hebrews and 1 & 2 Kings. When I answered that the lack of name is not the same as using a false name, ‘sharedconcept’ brought in 2 John. My response was: **“On 20 Jan 2006 14:24:55 ‘sharedconcept’ brought 2 John 1 to justify his use of false name. The phrase, “The elder,” is not a pseudonym. It was a personal letter. The “elect lady” knew who wrote that letter and we got its evidence. That is why we call it “The Second Epistle of John.” All these attempts by ‘sharedconcept’ to justify the use of a false name show how he interprets the scriptures. To him, his interpretations are that establishes the scriptures and not the other way around.”** I was addressing the identity of the author of that epistle, because that is the subject of interest. But ‘sharedconcept,’ as usual, changed the inquiry on the identity to the recipient from the author. He brings in ‘scholars’ to prove something that was not addressed in my posting and finds fault with what I wrote. This is a predictable characteristic of people who try to mislead through misrepresentation. They change the subject of discussion using subtlety, hoping the other person can be succumbed to it. I am addressing the identity of the author who is hiding behind a mask being emboldened by the gift of speaking in tongue.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 2:26:19 PM Close
Dear Readers and 'sharedconcept,' Part-1

You asked me about ‘Brethren in Kerala.’ I am not a Brethren, therefore you posed that question to the wrong person. Why can’t you get into a dialog following rules in a dialog on speaking in tongues as seen in 1 Corinthians. You have good reason not to follow rules in any expositions. You will write about the lack of name of authors in books, when your argument was met, you will say that it is not about the author, it is about the reader. When you make false and misleading statements about gifts, as to “gifts to the assembly,” you do not provide scriptures that teach it, but you provide your own explanation using out of context texts.

It is the same ‘sharedconcept’ who is wrote on 12 Jan 2006 21:01:04, “Many people believe that since they have a revelation on one or several matters it naturally must follow that they are correct in all matters or that they have the complete revelation. They shut the door by this act instead of leaving it open. So many of God’s revelations are developmental and not final…” --- From this, I conclude that he believes in an incomplete revelation in the Word of God and he is accusing me of not having an open mind to accept what ‘God revealed something through a believer.’ He asserts that the Brethren assemblies in Kerala are pathetic and dwindling in numbers. Is this true or false, let others who know better reply. Let us consider his position. He claims to speak in tongues, but doesn’t want to be known as one. What is his name? He goes to Brethren Assemblies, even in Kerala, but would not tell that he speaks in tongues, because the subject did not come up. He gives books written by professors of theology on speaking in tongues, but would not reveal that he does speak in tongues. He claims proudly that he is a ‘fourth generation Brethren,’ but is ashamed of his parents and heritage. He claims that he taught about speaking in tongues in Kerala, but refuses to give details regarding the place and dates...

(Cont. part 2)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 2:28:41 PM Close
Dear Readers and 'sharedconcept,' Part-2

...He claims that he speaks to those who are married from Pentecostal families into Brethren, and their conditions are like caged birds. At the same time, he did not spoke to the elders about speaking in tongues. When Sambudhanoor asked about it, he sated that he will do it next time. In proverbs we read that that is the reply of a sluggard – “tomorrow I will do it,” and not one who is working. He challenges others for a debate offering to pay for the “entire expenses,’ and later demands the other person also should bear the expenses. He wrote that Sambudhanoor is a gift to the assembly. When asked about its scriptural accuracy, he replied that it was done with sarcasm. Then he wrote that speaking in tongue is a gift to the assembly. When asked to show that from the scriptures, he wrote on 26 Jan 2006 19:02:23 to establish its scriptural accuracy by the means of rhetoric. He fired a question of rhetoric, “Gifts are given to the individual for what?” Then he quoted 1 Corinthians 14:12. Let me remind him, building the church or assembly is not a gift to the assembly. We should always remember that gifts are from the Holy Spirit to individuals and we receive it as He gives. How is it justifiable for men/women who claim to have the gift of speaking in tongue to misrepresent and misstate about the Word of God? They not only misrepresent and misstate the Word of God, they keep on insisting hoping that some may fall prey to their deceptive techniques. Let me stop this list here, and ask others a question: Is this the quality of a person who speaks in tongues?

Yes, ‘sharedconcept,’ the Lord still adds daily those who are to be saved to the Assembly, the body of Christ, as He did on the early days of the history of the Assembly. The sad thing is that man adds to it, in the local Christian churches, more unsaved than saved. No one is added to the Assembly built by the Lord Jesus Christ, unless God did it. The Holy Spirit does that...

(To be cont. Part-3)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 2:30:46 PM Close
Dear Readers and 'sharedconcept,' Part-3

...This is one of the works of the Holy Spirit on earth, in this dispensation. In Luke 12:32 we read the words that flowed from our Lord’s lips to His disciples about adding to them in connection with the kingdom, “Fear not, little flock, for it has been the good pleasure of your Father to give you the kingdom.” Here the Lord Jesus Christ called them, “Little flock.” He did not call them “mega flock,” as some prefer to be called and known. We are little flock and not mega flock, to be a mixed multitude carrying the tabernacles of Molock and Remphan as the children of Israel did in the wilderness. In the wilderness they were a shadow of things to come. All those happened for our edification and written for our obedience.

On 26 Jan 2006 16:47:09 ‘sharedconcept’ wrote, “…God never said I have already spoken to my people through the Word of God and I will no longer communicating, with them on a one to one basis…” --- No one said God is not communicating with believers or sinners, even in these days. The Holy Spirit does that. He brings demonstration to the world, of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment (John 16:8), as seemed appropriate. It is not a revelation as we read in the scriptures. The Greek word for ‘demonstration’ is ‘elegxei.’ It means ‘convince’ and suppose effect in the person who is convinced. It is the presence of the Holy Spirit and all that He does is what provides this demonstration. Without Him this will not happen. That is why we receive Him when we are saved. When He is in us, we also have the gifts of the Holy Spirit, as we are children of God. The gifts are not provided after a probationary period or till some one laying the hands on another. This teaching is a misrepresentation of what is taught in the scriptures as ‘laying of hands.’ There is no instruction or command of laying of hands to any one to enable another to speak in tongues in the scriptures...

(To be cont. Part-4)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 2:32:32 PM Close
Dear Readers and 'sharedconcept,' Part-4

...It is an invention of man who thinks that he could compel the Holy Spirit to do what He did not do before. They may offer prayers, to show piety. Some may even go on an hunger strike, calling it as fasting like the Pharisee in Luke 18:12.

On 26 Jan 2006 ‘sharedconcept’ wrote, “Brother GPK, Where does the canonization of the scriptures have anything to do with any of these portions?” Why does he have a fixation with ‘canonization?’ I did not say anything about canonization of the scriptures. The canonization of the scriptures took place way after, may be a few hundred years later, the scriptures were completed as indicated in 1 Corinthians 13:10. In 1 Corinthians 13:10 we read about the cessation of tongues at the completion of the Word of God and not about the canonization of the 66 books in the Bible. The deception of ‘sharedconcept’ is by repeating the word ‘canonization,’ he hopes to lead us away from the real time of the completion of the revelation of the Word of God through the Apostles.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 2:35:27 PM Close
Dear readers and 'sharedconcept,' Part-A

On 26 Jan 2006 18:38:25 ‘sharedconcept’ wrote about 1 Corinthians 13:10 and 12. It shows that he is following the argument of some one who tried to establish speaking in tongue will not cease as in 1 Corinthians 13:10. In order to use 1 Corinthians 13:10, 12 to establish the continuation of speaking in tongue as a gift to individuals, they have to change the meaning of the Greek word ‘teleiw,’ which means ‘to complete’ (KJV translated it as ‘perfect.’). Our Lord used the same word on the cross, when he proclaimed, “It is finished.” It was He who brought the work of salvation to its completion or to its end. When He did that, he told us that he brought it to its finish. In 1 Corinthians 13, we read that when the revelation is brought to its completion, the prophecy and partial knowledge will be done away and the tongue will cease. Those who insist that the revelation is not brought to its completion or perfection, insist that prophecy, partial knowledge, and tongue continue. They say that this ‘perfect’ or ‘completion’ is Lord Jesus Christ and the phrase “which is perfect is come” is about the coming of the Lord. Where is the justification for this interpretation. From the context, it is clear that their interpretation is erroneous and deceiving. In 1 Corinthians 13:8 we read that prophecy will be done away, the tongue shall cease, and the knowledge shall be done away. The prophecy and knowledge shall be done away, and the tongue will cease. ‘Cease’ does not mean ‘will continue,’ as ‘sharedconcept’ wants us to believe. We are asked to read as it is written, then only we can answer the enemy, “it is written.” Why is the difference in telling us that certain gifts will be “done away” (‘kataghthhstai’ = will be abolished), while another one will “cease” (‘pausontai’ = shall cease).

(To be cont. Part-B)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 2:37:25 PM Close
Dear readers and 'sharedconcept,' Part-B

Let us consider ‘prophecy’ and ‘knowledge’ that are to be ‘done away’ or ‘will be abolished.’ In verse 9 we read that both these gifts are in part. When they are brought to an end, completed (perfected in verse 10 in KJV), they will be abolished. That is there will not be any more revelation to give as a prophecy to the children of God. That is what happened in the early days of Christianity when the Holy Spirit inspired the Apostles to complete, bring to an end, of the Word of God for us. When ‘prophecy’ and ‘knowledge’ were completed, the speaking in tongue as a child ceased. The gift of speaking in tongue was not abolished, but ceased. Prophecy is possessed only in the form of inspiration. Knowledge is the reflection of what is prophesied. That makes the knowledge depend upon the prophecy. If we prophesy in part (13:10), the knowledge has to be lesser in part, because of its dependency on prophecy. That makes the completeness of knowledge solely depends on the completeness of the prophecy. When those who speak in tongue say that God “reveals through believers,” they are insisting on the incompleteness of the Word of God. Satan knows that as long as he can convince men that the Word of God is not complete (perfect – LJV), he could mislead many to continue in what God has abolished and ceased.

Apostle Paul tried to use certain illustrations to make us understand the abolishing and ceasing of certain gifts. In 13:11 he used the figure of a child growing into manhood. This was to illustrate the partial knowledge of a child and how it is abolished in a grown man. In 13:12 he used the figure of the image reflected imperfectly and how it changes to a perfect image when one see it face to face. The first was in connection with “now I know in part,” and the second in connection with “then shall I know even as also I am known.”...

(To be cont. Part-C)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 2:39:28 PM Close
Dear readers and 'sharedconcept,' Part-C

...What we know has an imperfection because of our nature, and it will be ‘done away’ or ‘abolished’ only when we come face to face with the true knowledge. When we come to 13:13, the comparison of prophecy, knowledge, and tongue is with faith, hope, and love. Among the three; faith, hope, and love; love is greater, because we know the love of God without a shadow of doubt. It is a complete knowledge and not partial.

In John 17:3 we learn that the knowledge of God and Christ is ‘everlasting life.’ In 1 John 4:7,8 we learn that whoever loves God knows God, and whosoever loves not does not know Him. When we read them together, we realize that the incompleteness of our knowledge is based on the lack of our love to God. The prophecy is brought to completeness, for us. There is no excuse for holding an incomplete knowledge. If we do, it is because we do not love God as we should. We cling on to our ideas and logic to follow alien ‘concepts’ and are eager to be ‘shared.’

On 27 Jan 2006 18:23:50 ‘sharedconcept’ wrote, “Don’t worry about mentioning ‘sharedconcept’ to J.C. Dev. The important thing is to Know where J.C. Dev stands on the topic of spiritual gifts. If you could ask him that question, then it won’t be second hand knowledge.” --- What ‘Sambudhanoor’ asked was what did you say about you speaking in tongues to M.M. Zachariah, elders at the assembly at Kumbanad, and J.C. Dev. You have told us that you did not say about it to M.M. Zachariah and the elders at the assembly, where you claimed to spoke while in India. On the first two you admitted in the negative. You did not give a clear reply about J.C. Dev. It has become a characteristic of yours to make a statement and when asked for information to verify the accuracy, then you hide behind a false name and pretend that you spoke in tongue. You want us to imagine that you spoke in tongue when you were driving, all by yourself...

(To be cont. Part-D)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 2:41:44 PM Close
Dear readers and 'sharedconcept,' Part-D

...At the same time, you admit that the believers in Corinth, before the completion of the Word of God, spoke in tongues in the presence of others and not while they were riding on a horse to the meeting or to work.

On 28 Jan 2006 10:53:20 ‘sharedconcept’ wrote about Romans 8:26, **“The people translated that verse from Greek to English missed it by a mile. According to a noted Greek scholar P.C. Nelson, the correct translation would be “Groaning that couldn’t be uttered in an articulate language.” The bottom line is, only the Holy Spirit can pray a picture perfect prayer.”** --- What is a picture perfect prayer? Where do we read about it in the Word of God. Evidently Paul did not pray a picture perfect prayer, as ‘sharedconcept’ did. That is why he had a thorn in the flesh. Even after praying thrice, he was told it would not be taken away. He has to leave Trophimus sick in Mellitus. Timothy was asked to drink some wine for his stomach problem. Here, in the 21st century, we have ‘sharedconcept,’ who is afraid to write on his own name, wants others to believe that he prays the perfect prayer, while driving his car.

Let us look into the deception he used by citing Mr. P.C. Nelson, a Greek scholar. Since ‘sharedconcept’ quoted only a part of Romans 8:26, I am placing the Greek, English, and an English translation for your consideration: all (but) auto (itself) to (the) Pneuma (Spirit) eperentugxanei (pleads our case) upper (for) hmwn (us) stenagmois (with groaning) alalhtois (unutterable). The literal translation is, “but the Spirit itself makes intercession with groaning which cannot be uttered.” There is no justification in adding “in an articulate language” as P.C. Nelson, the Greek scholar, did. He was willfully misleading his followers like ‘sharedconcept’ using this comments as part of the original writings in Greek.

(To be cont. Part-E)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 2:43:16 PM Close
Dear readers and 'sharedconcept,' Part-E

One who follows such a deceptive person also tries to deceive us with his partial, out of context, and misrepresentation of the scriptures. This is what he did on 28 Jan 2006 12:02:30. He wrote, “You MAY be giving thanks well enough (1 Cor. 14:17). Here again, it is mysterious. Paul himself did not know as to how God used this gift according to each and every occasion.” --- Let me quote the whole verse, 1 Cor. 14:17, “”For thou indeed givest thanks well, but the others not edified.” Paul was correcting the believers who claimed to be giving thanks to God, as done by ‘sharedconcept,’ were told that their actions do not edify others. Edification of others was the prime interest of the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 14:17. But to ‘sharedconcept,’ it is speaking in tongue to show off something to others was important. He again misquotes the scriptures according to P.C. Nelson, the Greek scholar.

On the same posting he makes mention of two supposed incidence from his life. Will ‘sharedconcept’ provide information to verify what he writes as his personal experiences. His personal experiences are not revelations from God that are to be added to the Word of God.

The crowning misrepresentation of the scriptures by ‘sharedconcept’ was made on 28 Jan 2006 13:10:47. He wrote, “It took the archangel, Michael to intervene in behalf of Daniel and the victory was secured.” --- What is he writing about? Where did he get this idea? Search the scriptures, you will not find what he wrote. This is how he establishes all his teachings, especially on speaking in tongues. Let me remind ‘sharedconcept’ that he willfully changed the Word of God to establish his unscriptural ideas and claim that they are new revelations in ‘tongue,’ even in the book of Daniel?

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 2:45:42 PM Close
Dear 'sharedconcept,' Part-I

On 26 Jan 2006 23:22:56 ‘sharedconcept’ quoted a few verses from 1 Corinthians 14 to support his position on speaking in tongues. They were mostly partial quotes of verses to justify his position. If any one look to those verses in its context, then it will become clear that he is using the method that was once used by an atheist to prove that there is no God, using the Bible. He even said that it could be shown at more than one place that it is written in the Bible, “There is no God.” He gave the references as Psalms 14:1 and 53:1. This is how those who try to establish the validity of speaking in tongue use verses from 1 Corinthians 14. As usual with those who insist on speaking in tongues, ‘sharedconcept’ also uses partial quotes, out of context quotes, and misrepresentation of the Word of God to establish his ideas. He leaves out those verses that contradict his position. I asked ‘sharedconcept’ to join me in a dialog on this Forum, but he refuses. At the same time he is asking for a debate (27 Jan 2006 18:36:14 and 19:00:44). It is the same person who told that he will bear all expenses for a debate in India, then wrote that I should also share the expenses? From what he posted on this thread, I deduce that when ‘sharedconcept’ says ‘yea’ it is a ‘nay’ and when he says ‘nay’ it is a ‘nay,’ also. He is speaking in tongue! I suppose!! As I see that there are others who are interested in a debate, let me say this to ‘sharedconcept.’

If you really want a debate, it could be made possible. First you must be willing to do what you promised in the original challenge. You wrote that you would pay for the entire expense. You then changed your position and demanded that I should also bear a part of the expense. You are changing your position on your promises. It is like changing the goal post in a soccer game to avoid goals being scored against you. Is this a good sign of having the gift of speaking in tongue?...

(To be cont. Part-II)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 2:48:05 PM Close
Dear 'sharedconcept,' Part-II

...It could be, if you are writing in tongue on having this debate! I hope it is not. Please send $10,000 (Ten thousand dollars) of your money, not collected from others, to the administrators of this Forum. This act will show that you are interested in a debate.

The original place of the debate was to be in India. I say that it should be Kumbanad, the place of your grandfather and my mother’s uncle. It should be under the auspices of the Brethren Assembly at Kumbanad. I also nominate Mr. M.M. Zachariah as the moderator. I don’t know him personally, but heard him twice and heard of him from others.

If you read my original response to your original challenge for a debate, then you will see that there was fee that was mentioned. My fee is $5,000 (five thousand dollars) per day plus my expenses. This will include my travel time and the day or days of debate. For a starter, the travel time will be six days. This includes the four days of air travel and two days for getting accustomed to the change of time. I need my fee in advance. Any arrangements will be made for my travel, only after the check or draft is cashed and found good for the value written on it. The $10,000 will be used for my travel to India and back. My fee is mine to keep. I have two strategies. First, I will appear in person and make a statement about why this debate is agreed upon and distribute all that you and I wrote about this subject and on this debate. After that I will leave. You could spend the rest of the time as you wish. The second strategy is, I will make the statement and distribute the information as stated before. Then I will participate in the debate from 1 Corinthians about your falsification of the scriptures in the name of the Holy Spirit. To participate this way, I demand an additional 10 days of fee for my preparation, plus the fees for my helpers. That will be an additional $50,000 (fifty thousand), minimum...

(To be cont. Part-III)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 2:49:45 PM Close
Dear 'sharedconcept,' Part-III

...This does not include my helpers’ fees and expenses. Remember, you not only offered to bear the entire expense, but also egotistically claimed your ability to pay. If you prefer the second strategy, then you must pay all fees in advance. I will let you know about the number of people who will help me and the number of days they will be engaged in that process. That will help you to write the check to cover my requirements. As you have shown that you do not fear even to change the scriptures, in the past, I want the money in advance.

You don’t need to make a debate an excuse to make known your identity. I want you to wear a mask while debating and should be known only as ‘sharedconcept.’ This will help you to “come out in the open.”

About the rules of engagement: I will provide the rules of engagement once you agreed to pay the fees and expenses. I hope you will.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 3:08:50 PM Close
Dear GPK,

I offered to pay the expenses of the debate, provided it was going to be held in Kerala. Now that I realize that you live in the United States, what is the purpose of going to KERALA?

After reading your writing for so long, I also realize that, it is a waste of time talking to you.You are simply set in your ways.There is more hope for prostitutes and tax collectors than "Pharasees". Funny, now that you raised your
stake to $50000.00, all along I was right about your intention. With an attitude like yours, I would not want to be 10 miles near you. May God himself be able to give you "Wewaykam".

sharedconcept

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 3:24:27 PM Close
Dear 'sharedconcept,'

I did not raise my stake. When I accepted your challenge, I also wrote that there is a fee and it will be made known later. Now as you want a debate so badly, you wrote about it with "When" and not "If," last week twice. I am stating what I stated before, more clearly. Be a man, don't back away after throwing in the glow as a knight of the past, while bearing a rusted armor.

You proposed Kerala as the site for the debate, so that you can "come out in the open." I am helping you to do that. Make yourself known to your parents, elders in the assembly in Kerala, M.M. Zachariah, J.C. Dev and all those who read your postings. Don't live behind a mask and insist on changing the Word of God. You will never succeed. It is the Word of God.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 5:04:13 PM Close
Dear GPK,

I have never doubted about my manhood. What I am
doubting about is your intention. I have to be very careful with con artists. If you think you are going to make a quick buck from this ordeal, you are dead wrong. About M.M.Zacharia and J.C.Dev, You belong to an another denomiantion. you are not even a Brethern. Isn't it ionic that you came to be the defender of the truth. Sort of like a knight in a shining armour. The Brethrens did not choose you to be their poll bearer. You also talked about me not succeeding because it is the Word of God. Devil already pulled the wool over your eyes and one day when you stand infront of the white throne, then you will realize that you had been misled. In the mean time, with your erroneous doctrine, please don't cause any more havoc into the lives of those innocent people.

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Reply by : ajax   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 6:11:48 PM Close
Dear Bro. ‘George P. Koshy’,

Thank you very much for addressing my concerns. Air Tickets are on sale right now. I think this is the best time to fly to India and come back. You hinted that you needed some helper. Please consider me to carry your luggage for a price, which you may recover and give it to me, so that I can send that amount to poor Christians in Karnataka.

Thank you.

Ajax


Dear Bro. ‘sharedconcept’,

When you have decided to have a debate the money should not be the criterion, considering the fact that you are getting emails from all continents, which shows that you have friends all over the world, from where you can seek help for this debate, and it would be unwise to go back on the gauntlets you have thrown on the field. I wish you victory and defeat to Bro. George P,. Koshy. When you come in your kingdom with all your friends from all the continents please remember me to carry your luggage, free of cost, but if you give tips, I will not be reluctant to accept that, and I promise you that I will buy “Ajax” products and send them across to Brother Mangalam to clean his toilet bowl.

Thank you,

Ajax

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 8:09:22 PM Close
Dear br. Ajax,

I thought mangalam already flushed you out. I am glad you resurfaced again. Thank you for your encouraging words. May God richly bless you.

Sharedconcept

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Reply by : ajax   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 8:27:24 PM Close
Dear Bro. sharedconcept,

Please keep praying in your tongues so that you may win the debate and have sufficient money from all sympathizers from all continents to meet the expenditure of everyone attending the debate. Praying in plain language will not fetch you any answer, please pray in 'tongues'.

Ajax

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 8:30:34 PM Close
Dear brother Ajax,

You are just a johny come lately who happend to poke you nose into this subject. You also mentioned about a possible trip to India? I am
seriously considering about buying you a permanent one way ticket back to karnataka.

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Reply by : beracha   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 11:30:18 PM Close
Good going, it must certainly be “shredded-concept”. The ‘tongue’ has started its work; keep on revving it up to full throttle.
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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 31 Jan 2006 6:26:35 AM Close
Quote:
"Did tongues cease before AD 100? They probably did. The testimony of the New Testament and church history strongly point in this direction. The writer of Hebrews used the past tense when he declared that God had confirmed the apostolic witness with "signs and wonders," "various miracles," and "gifts of the Holy Spirit" (Heb. 2:1-4). Tongues-speaking would certainly come under the category of "signs and wonders." Moreover, church historians have found no evidence of tongues-speaking among the church fathers of the second century. The practice was present only among a few heretical followers of Montanus. And until recent times, tongues-speaking has been unknown among the vast majority of the Lord's people."
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Reply by : samuelphilip   View Profile   Since : 31 Jan 2006 6:36:20 AM Close
Dear : sharedconcept From your quote: on 23 Jan 2006 21:41:04 (Part 1)

“One of God's ways to charge your spirit is through speaking in tongues. Usually languages are given their names based on the countries they came from. For example, English comes from England. Hindi comes from India. And where does tongues comes from? It comes from God. It is heavenly language.

In the above quote you mentioned that “It is Heavenly Language”. Can I know the meaning of some words which I hear from many of our Pentecostal Brothers and Sisters?

DABIDI KAPPADI BODI DARASCOUT (I don’t know the meaning)
RASIYAWUDDIN UL HUCK (may be some Muslim’s name)
I know more words which they are using continuously for all meetings.

Can you prove that this is a Heavenly Language? It is very embarrassment that, these types of meaningless words which Pentecostals are using as “Heavenly Language”.

Pentecostals are saying that, if you have taken the Baptism then wait and pray till such a time (they are called this ceremony as “Kaathiruppu Yogam”) for this Gift then only you will get this “Gift of Tongues”. But now we can see that all Catholic / Jacobite / Marthoma / Church Members and all other Charismatic Movements members also using this “Gift of Tongues” without Baptism and Kaathiruppu Yogam.
1 Corinthians 14:7,8,9,10,11 & 22
If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. THERE ARE DOUBTLESS MANY DIFFERENT LANGUAGES IN THE WORLD, AND NONE IS WITHOUT MEANING, but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me.

next page

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Reply by : samuelphilip   View Profile   Since : 31 Jan 2006 6:36:51 AM Close
Dear : sharedconcept From your quote: on 23 Jan 2006 21:41:04 (Part 2)

“Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign[c] not for unbelievers but for believers”.

As per the Word of God, it is not mentioned anywhere that these type of words are “Heavenly Language”

SO WE CAN CONCLUDE WIHOUT ANY ARGUMENT THAT ONLY NON BELEVERS ARE USING THIS UNKNOWN WORDS.

Psalm 120:2
Save me, O LORD, from lying lips and from deceitful tongues

GOD BLESS ALL OF US

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 31 Jan 2006 9:06:22 AM Close
Dear Sharedconcept

Make sure that the debate will materialize and publish the time date and place well in advance in this web site so that some of us also try to come an attend.

You are on who challenged Bro.GPK for the debate with the traveling expenses to be borne by you.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 31 Jan 2006 10:30:49 AM Close
Dear 'sharedconcept,'

If you have not doubted your manhood, fulfil your promise. Those who speak in tongues have no different rule in the scriptures. That rule is, if you take a vow or a promise, then you must honor it. Without any provocation, you agreed to pay the "entire expense" for a debate. Now select one of the two strategies that I placed before you, and pay the fee and expenses in advance. It is you word. It is your ego that is going to be satisfied, on a debate.

Do you want to engage in a dialog? Then come over to the thread, "“Speaking In Tongues As Taught In 1 Corinthians.” It won't cost you any thing, as a manner of speaking, but you have to follow the rules as placed there. You can defeat me from getting rich, also. Your love of money will be safe to flurish. Be a man. Keep your promise, vow, like Jepthah. Because of that, he was counted among the men of faith in Hebrews 11. He is one of those who stands around us, encouraging us to go forward.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 31 Jan 2006 10:47:33 AM Close
DEar 'sharedconcept,'

I, along with a number of others on this forum, will not stand before the "white throne," as you wrote on 30 Jan 2006 17:04:13. I assume that you are referring to the 'Great White Throne." It appears that you believe that you will. If so, you need to be saved. That is the only way one can avoid that situation. Once you are before that throne, then you will end up in the lake of fire.

In the posting referred before, your writing is very similar to that of 'sunilajoseph@aol.com.' She also wrote similar passages to another saint of God on this Forum. If you do, as she did, then you are an annihilationist. They hold more dangerous teachings against what is revealed in the scriptures by the Holy spirit.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 31 Jan 2006 11:01:46 AM Close
Dear 'Ajax,'

I think I could use your help in the debate without paying more than 1/2 of the air fare. 'Sharedconcept' wrote to you in a posting, "You also mentioned about a possible trip to India? I am seriously considering about buying you a permanent one way ticket back to karnataka." (30 jan 2006 20:30:34). Please take him on his writing. It could reduce my expenses. Please! please! help me by accepting what is under the consideration of 'sharedconcept.'

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 31 Jan 2006 11:07:42 AM Close
Dear 'Ajax,'

I do not think that you are a "Johny come lately," as 'sharedconcept' referred to in an earlier posting of 30 Jan 2006. You are, I consider, a believer in jesus Christ as your personal Savior, Lord, and God. You are brought to that position before God, a child of God, according to the eternal counsel and purpose of God. The hollowness of those who claim to speak in tongue is revealed through such utterences. Those who are proud to be speaking in tongues, do it along with millions of unbelievers. Did you or any one read in any of the postings that the recent phenomenon of speaking in tongues is limited to believers? On the contrary, they derive the validity of their practice by reminding others that it is done by millions of Roman Catholics, Marthomites, Jacobites, Pentecostals, etc. Thus Pentecostals and those who claim to be speaking in tongues are identifying themselves with unbelievers, rather than with saints. Don't be discouraged. Rejoice, because you are counted with the saints and not with the millions of unbelievers who speak in tongues.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 31 Jan 2006 11:22:41 AM Close
Dear GPK,

My manhood is not attached with a money hungry person who keep changing his fees by the minute.
You remind me of those "blade" companies in Kerala. If anything,I am beginning to wonder about your true manhood. A true believer will
will preach the gopel free of charge. I already mentioned those versese on a prior thred. You are a hinderence to those wants to experience the
fullness of what God originally intended. How sad
and unfortunate. Your arguements have been "he said this, they said this" and it never ends. A real man would never stoop to that level. You remind me of those people at Athens sneering at 'resurrrection' becasue it was beyond their
understanding. (Ac.17:32). I see that same pattern in you. The most unfotunate thing about the whole thing is, these so called intellectuals are the biggest stumbling blocks towards the fullness. It was like that then and it is like that now. WIth that being said, I will
no longer be chit chating with you.

Sharedconcept

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 31 Jan 2006 3:16:47 PM Close
Dear 'sharedconcept,'

Let me assure you that I was not "chit chating" with you. I was engaged in a discussion on the word of God with all its seriousness. As usual, you misrepresents what I wrote. My arguements have been 'you said this on this date and time' and this is my answer from the scripture, the Word of God. Now you termed what I wrote from the scriptures as "they said this." It is not what they said, it was what the Holy Spirit said. All believers will say this with reverence that is due to God. You who claims to have the gift of speaking in tongues, do not show that reverence, especially to those words of God and the Holy Spirit. You term it, "they said this."

I did preach the gospel of salvation to you and it was without any charge. Don't you know that we were writing about having a debate on 'Speaking In Tongue?' You might have lost track of it, while writing in tongue and driving! What we were revealing on this forum was not about gospel or preaching of the gospel, but about a debate between you and me on "Speaking in Tongues."

As a man, I will keep my word to meet you in a debate. All you have to do is to keep your word. Will you keep your word?

Is it true that you are declining to debate me on speaking in tongues? I deduced it from what you wrote on 31 Jan 2006 11:22:41, "WIth that being said, I will no longer be chit chating with you." What you wrote on Friday and Saturday made me think that you are eager to have this debate. Now I have to ask 'Ajax' that he cannot be my helper. Please do not drop your idea of giving him a one way ticket to Karnataka.

Are you going to meet me on the other thread, "Speaking in Tongues As Taught in 1 Corinthians?" You should.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : ajax   View Profile   Since : 31 Jan 2006 6:29:40 PM Close
Dear Brother ‘sharedconcept’,

I did not have opportunity to post here, after making my last post yesterday. I thought you are a Pastor of some Pentecostal Church, so I thought, you know more than I do, about the Bible, so I thought of discussing with you, and on last weekend we had discussed about ‘tongues’. (You probably thought it was a “chit-chat” just as you mentioned in your post addressed to George P. Koshy). As for me, I was seriously discussing with you and wanted to learn from you, but unfortunately there was nothing to learn from you; rather I had to teach you, and find your fallacy also, thereafter. I thought of learning from you some thing more from the Scriptures, if you started a new thread, but you did not start new thread. You also mentioned in your recent posts addressed to George P. Koshy, about, ‘white throne’ judgment. I understood how deep you have grown in the knowledge of God. Please be sure, I will be with my Lord at the ‘judgment seat of Christ’ in the mid air, at the time of rapture, and will come back after a ‘seven year period’ to reign literally along my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ you and your colleagues, left behind here on this earth, because you are waiting for ‘white throne’ judgment. I will not be available there, for your information!

I think you have not given up having the debate yet. You can deposit one way air fare to Karnataka, for me, with the administrators of this forum. I will make my own arrangements to come back. Do not worry about it. What did you mean by this sentence?

“I am seriously considering about buying you a permanent one way ticket back to Karnataka”?

Do Air lines offer permanent one way and temporary one way, or temporary two way, or permanent two way tickets? That was interesting tongue indeed.

Thank you,

Ajax

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Reply by : ajax   View Profile   Since : 31 Jan 2006 6:41:12 PM Close
Dear Bro. ‘George P. Koshy’,

Quote:

“I think I could use your help in the debate without paying more than 1/2 of the air fare”.

I thank you brother for that confidence in me and assuring your help in helping me.
Let ‘sharedconcept’ deposit only that much airfare, which he has promised pay, with the administrators of this forum.

Quote:

“I do not think that you are a "Johny come lately," as 'sharedconcept' referred to in an earlier posting of 30 Jan 2006. You are, I consider, a believer in jesus Christ as your personal Savior, Lord, and God. You are brought to that position before God, a child of God, according to the eternal counsel and purpose of God.”

I, too, do not think why I should be considered as “Johnny come lately”. You are right Jesus Christ is my personal Savior and he takes care of me every day, because I cast my burden on HIM.

More over I asked him questions and he voluneered to answer me and failed to prove his stand. I am still waiting for 1/3 of my share from him, which I want to give really to poor Christians, who can not afford to have three meals a day, yet sincerely worhip our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He can send that amount directly to poor Christians, who belong to Pentecostals, if not Brethren, in Karnataka.

Ajax

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 1 Feb 2006 12:58:40 AM Close
Brothr Ajax,

I don't know why you keep interfering in this conversation. Please keep out of it.


Sharedconcept

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 1 Feb 2006 1:23:26 AM Close
Dear GPK,

As I mentioned to you before, If the debate was going to be held at India while I was there, I would have been thrilled. Now you are asking me
to pay close to $100000.00 for you and your
cronies so you all can take that trip together. I am really questioning your judgement.I know you are very close to being an octogenarian. Premature senility is treatable. I hope you will set up an appointment with a doctor. Good luck.

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Reply by : samuelphilip   View Profile   Since : 1 Feb 2006 5:19:26 AM Close
Dear GPK

Sharedconcept’s Attitude is not clear. He just wishes to escape from this serious situation, which he created himself. As far as my knowledge from his support to “Other Tongue”, he is a Pentecostal and he just want to defend Brethren, also he does not think that, his write-up will have to costs something to him!

All answers which he is giving against this topic are in vain only and it is inadequate.

That’s why he is forced to written like this;

Form his last post Br. GPK
“I know you are very close to being an octogenarian. Premature senility is treatable. I hope you will set up an appointment with a doctor. Good luck.”

Dear SharedConcept.

Your above statement is showing that you are not a good believer; you are totally failed to write the answers from the Word of God, I request you to agree your failure and close this issue. Otherwise you have to cooperate with Br. GPK as he mentioned.

God Bless Us
Samuel Philip

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 1 Feb 2006 9:25:29 AM Close
Dear 'sharedconcept,'

On 1 Feb 2006 01:23:26 you wrote, "As I mentioned to you before, If the debate was going to be held at India while I was there, I would have been thrilled. Now you are asking me to pay close to $100000.00 for you and your cronies so you all can take that trip together." --- I don't know how you got the number $100,000. Evidently, you don't understand what you read. Let me enumerate:

The initial payment = $10,000
My fee for travel time = 6 x 5,000 = $30,000
My fee for the day of debate (if only 1 day) = $5,000
The total cost that you have to pay me for the 1st strategy = 5,000 + 30,000 + 10,000 = $45,000.
The expenses at Kumbanad are in addition to this.

If you prefer the second strategy, then you have to add the following:

My 10 days of preparation = $50,000
10 days for my helpers (at least 3) = 3 x 10 x 5,000 = $150,000 (My helpers are equally qualified to stand before my Lord, therefore they are my equal and they should have the same fee. They are NOT my CRONIES as YOU SAID. They are saved by the blood of the Lamb of God and are called the "sons of God" by God the Father. Their Father is my Father and they are my brethren. Our Lord Jesus Christ called us brothers. You call them CRONIES? You are mocking God and not men.)
Their travel expenses = 3 x 10,000 = $30,000
The fee for the day of debate (if only 1 day) for my helpers = 3 x 5,000 = $15,000

Total check we expect from you, if you prefer the second strategy = 45,000 + 50,000 + 150,000 + 30,000 + 15,000= $290,000

Let us add another $25,000 to cover other expenses by the local brethren to arrange and accommodate the crowd and other things. To be added to the 1st strategy, if you prefer that.

The total comes to be about $315,000 (E&OE)

Well, have you heard about the old saying! - NAYARU PIDICHORU PULIVALU. (For those who don’t know: It is the predicament of one who caught the tail of a leopard.)

You said that you would pay for the "entire expenses." Now what do you say?

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 1 Feb 2006 9:33:53 AM Close
Dear 'sharedconcept,'

You are stepping beyond the bounds, when you ask another member to "keep out" of this conversation. You don't own this forum. You are a registered participant. You are expected to follow the terms that you agreed to, when you registered on this forum. You owe an apology to all for asking another registered member to "keep out."

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 1 Feb 2006 9:51:04 AM Close
Dear Samuel Philip,

Thank you for your posting. All 'sharedconcept' has to do is to join me in the dialog on "Speaking in Tongue As Taught in 1 Corinthians." But there we have rules to follow. That is whay he refuses. One who changes the Word of God to establish his preferred doctrines will always refuse to follow rules of engagement. The simple reason is that he is not even revere the Holy Spirit, because he got the gift of speaking in tongues by another person, without a name, identified with him by the laying of hands.

We who have the Holy Spirit, God Himself placing His Finger, sent by our Lord Jesus Christ - the risen, ascended, and glorified - are rejoicing in the Lord. Our Lord Jesus Christ is revealed as the hand of God in Isaiah 53:1-2. It is the Hand of God that is placed over us and with the Fingers of God we are anointed. Some are not, therefore they ask some men to lay their hands on for the sole purpose of speaking in tongue. God placed His Hand on us and anointed us with His Finger and called us 'sons of God.' Apostle Paul wrote, "Rejoice in the Lord, I say, rejoice." We in unison say, "Amen! We do rejoice in the Lord, again and again. Amen! and Amen!!"

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 1 Feb 2006 11:46:41 AM Close
Dear GPK,

You quoted Samuel Philip saying "This shows you are not a good believer". Rev.GPk, You wrote volumes and volumes and majority of it was about
"he said, he said". You painted a very negative
picture about me. In your latest posting, you also increased your debate fee to $315,000. Then you had the nerve to quote an old Malayalam sying
"Nayaru pidichoru pulivalu" I have never considered you to be a real tiger in anything.
In light of the above statement, If I am bad,then you are worse. Teachings such as yours
will make others ineffective towards the things of God. Even generations are led astray. May God himself be able to have mercy upon you.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 2 Feb 2006 8:43:48 AM Close
Dear 'sharedconcept,'

Your posting of 1 Feb 2006 11:46:41 shows how little reverence you have towards God. You elevate men to His level in reverence. Hebrews 12:28, Psalms 11:9; Malachi 1:14 tell us that reverence is only to be attributed to God. Now you use it to a man, when you wrote "Rev.GPk." I object to it and you should delete it with an apology.

If you want to use some prefix in addressing me, then you may follow the practice of your charismatic (with strange tongues and not necessary to be born from above) friends from Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches. You may call me Saint George (St. George, to be short). (Please note: This is a special permission given only to 'sharedconcept' and not to any others) That is scriptural!!!

By the way, I find that there is a new revelation through speaking in tongue. That new revelation is the change of meaning of PULI as 'tiger.' Let me remind you that the old and original Malayalam word PULI stands for 'leopard,' which is member of the cheetah family. But you have a new revelation!

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 2 Feb 2006 9:28:07 AM Close
Out of context note
===================

Quote: "You may call me Saint George (St. George, to be short). (Please note: This is a special permission given only to 'sharedconcept' and not to any others) That is scriptural!!!"

Psalms 106:16, "They envied Moses also in the camp, and AARON THE SAINT of the LORD."

"...called TO BE SAINTS, with ALL that in EVERY PLACE call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord" (1 Cor 12).

God bless.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 2 Feb 2006 9:29:12 AM Close
Dear 'sharedconcept,'

On 2 Feb 2006 08:43:48 you wrote, **"You quoted Samuel Philip saying "This shows you are not a good believer"."** Where did I do this? May be this is one of your new revelations in speaking in tongue! Why are you making such false statements? You have done this very often on this thread and have no intention of changing your behaviour. You should start to tell the truth, even though they say that we cannot teach an old dog new tricks. Is this the spirit that gave you the gift of 'speaking in tongue' that helps you to be a falsifier of facts and statements? The Holy Spirit is not a spirit that compells one to lie, as you do. He restrains us, in our replies to you. For once in your life, try to make truthful statements, at least about what others write and comunicate on this Forum. May be as one who changes even the Word of God, you may do this without any feeling of guilt.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : pc   View Profile   Since : 3 Feb 2006 3:38:58 AM Close
'Puli' stands for lepeord?, that is a new revelation!
Puli stands for tamarind or tamarindo(spanish)or can be used as Kodan Puli/Valan Puli. Ha Ha Ha...
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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 3 Feb 2006 11:53:25 AM Close
Dear 'pc,'

Thank you. Occassionally we need some lighter moments. Let us roll-up our tongues and enjoy the moment. Allow me to stop, so that I can laugh with you. Oh! Oh! Ha! Ha!.....

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : pc   View Profile   Since : 4 Feb 2006 2:56:15 AM Close
I am waiting to see Tongue 4
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Reply by : mats   View Profile   Since : 4 Feb 2006 7:53:55 AM Close
4 GPK & Group
Prophecy, Knowledge, Understanding, and Faith
"If I have the gift of prophecy, and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing" (1 Cor. 13:2)

suits GPK isnt it?

brethren

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Reply by : mats   View Profile   Since : 4 Feb 2006 7:55:42 AM Close
Dear PC

you are waiting to c tongue 4 ?

You will get that very soon......

Brethren

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Reply by : mats   View Profile   Since : 4 Feb 2006 8:03:55 AM Close
Dear sharedconcept

it is of no use to make them understand about tongues.because u can not change their perception but u can pray for them.

many of us were just a reader watching our two brethren fighting pardon me if iam wrong but instead of that why cant we spread the gospel... just examine our hearts wer we really doing that ..... obeying gods commendment

Brethren

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 3 Mar 2006 8:00:24 PM Close
'sharedconcept,'

This is my answer to your posting of 3 March 2006 7:06:31 on the thread "Other Tongue 2." There you wrote, "GPK, You did posted a bill for $315000.00 and it was itamized. I no longer could find it in the thred. Do not deny it. Those who tell lies will be thrown into the lake of fire.

sharedconcept"

You refuse to post on this thread, then imply that I deny what I wrote. That is not Christian like.

What you wrote on 2 Mar 2006 1:43:20 was, "...you posted a bill on the web with $350000." On 3 Mar 2006 7:06:31 you wrote, "You did posted a bill for $315000.00..." Which one is correct? In either case there is an error greater than 10% in your reading comprehension.

Thank you for reminding me, "Those who tell lies will be thrown into the lake of fire," in "Other tongue 2" on 3 Mar 2006 7:06:31. Can you count how many lies you told on the threads connected with "Other Tongue?" On 3 Mar 2006 7:06:31, could we say 'two?'

Let me also say that I did not submit a bill to any one. I helped you to make the budget for your debate. It was an estimate for the budgetting purpose, and not a bill. If it was a bill, it would have sent to you for payment. Istead, I asked you to join me on another thread to discuss about speaking in tongues as taught in 1 Corinthians. It won't cost you anything, other than the time you have to spent.

I hope you will find the posting with my estimates for the debate on this thread. After that, please tell, is that $350,000 or $315,000?

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : tom2   View Profile   Since : 6 Mar 2006 4:43:10 AM Close
dear all

I just want to know the why this concept of tongues is in bible .... then y it is treated as a gift of holy spirit... could any one explain on this...

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 6 Mar 2006 2:16:59 PM Close
Dear 'tom2,'

First of all, the gifts as adminsitered by the Holy Spirit is not a concept. It is a doctrine, teaching, that is in the Word of God. The gifts as an administration by the Holy Spirit is taught in more than one epistle. Please do not make what is given for our edification by God through the Holy Spirit, a concept. It demands respect and revernce from human beings. Satan, the adversary, shivers before it.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : tom2   View Profile   Since : 7 Mar 2006 4:11:47 AM Close
Dear GPK

look i didnt mean to say like that my aplogize

Rgds

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 7 Mar 2006 2:13:10 PM Close
Dear 'tom2,'

In the Word of God we read about "gift of the Holy Spirit" in many places. John 4:10; Acts 2:38; 10:45 are three of them.

About speaking in tongues, the saints at Corinth claimed that they have the gift of speaking in tongues and misused it. Apostle Paul corrected them in the 1st epistle to them. He told them that speaking in tongue will cease. Not only that he also told them, though he speaks in tongue more than any one, he would prefer to speak a few words in a known tongue, because it edifies.

I don't know why certain groups wants to speak in tongues and insist on it.

For detail, please read the thread on this subject in the Moderated Forum.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : mangalam   View Profile   Since : 10 Mar 2006 9:01:06 PM Close
Dear GPK,

What a big disappointment. We were all looking forward to the debate. I was even thinking about taking my vacation during the debate. Do you in your right mind think that anyone would go for a debate worth $315000.00?. I had the opportunity to watch several U.S. Presidential debates and I don't think any of them came up to be $315000.00
When you mentioned that amount, you were actually belittling the intelligence of the very readers. It is good to be assertive and there is a distinction between being assertive and being
obnoxious. Unfortunately, you fall into the latter catogory. As it is, from the look of it,
the debate simply disappeared. What a big disappointment.

Sambudhanoor,

On several occasions, you cheered GPK and said,
"good answer". Cheerleading is unnecessary. Long time ago, I watched a Tarzan movie and there was this thin fellow who carried the trunks on his head. Whenever the lions came, he was the first person to throw the trunks from his head and scream "simba simba. He ran for his life. You remind me of that man.

mangalam


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Reply by : tom2   View Profile   Since : 12 Mar 2006 4:38:10 AM Close
Dear GPK

could you please let us know more about

"the saints at Corinth claimed that they have the gift of speaking in tongues and misused it.

Regards

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 16 Mar 2006 2:00:53 PM Close
Dear 'tom2,'

I have already provided the answer to your request in the thread, “Speaking In Tongues As Taught In 1 Corinthians.” After reading, if you have any question, please let me know, in that thread.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 17 Mar 2006 2:12:37 PM Close
Dear Mangalam,

It was interesting to read ‘Mangalam’s’ posting about his delight in ‘sharedconcept’s’ challenge to have a debate and the disappointment caused by his decision to rescind it. It is still possible to have that debate as in the form of a dialog. But it will not be in the floodlights of “camera rolling” and CD and video making for profit. All ‘sharedconcept’ has to do is to make use of the thread dealing with speaking in tongues as taught in 1 Corinthians. It won’t cost him a penny. (By the way, ‘sharedconcept’ doesn’t know the difference between $315,000 and $350,000. This is the person who challenges others for debate!) If ‘sharedconcept’ wants to have fame as a debater, and fortune by selling CDs and videos, then he has to invest some money in advance. ‘Sharedconcept’ has admitted that he wants to be in front of rolling cameras and selling the CDs and videos world wide was his undisclosed and secret intent, while using the cloak of spiritual manifestations as an excuse as we read in 1 Corinthians 14. If you are disappointed, you have to tell that to ‘sharedconcept.’

Mangalam’s posting shows his ignorance of expenses connected with any debate, especially that of a presidential debate. The expenses are underwritten by certain organizations. There are rules for both sides to follow and they are to be decided in advance after the debates are decided upon. There are logistics and safety concerns to worry about. These and more are parts of planning a debate. It is not like asking to see each other without mentioning about the intent of having a debate. That kind of behavior will not be seen even among atheists. Truthfulness is to be expected from a Christian. Let me close, so I will not be writing more about the unethical, immoral, and unchristian behavior of some in challenging for a debate.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : mangalam   View Profile   Since : 21 Mar 2006 9:43:33 PM Close
Dear GPK,

I have been an impartial observer of the rapport
that took place between you and sharedconcept. The reason for the debate was not to get attention but to present the various view point before others. What makes you think that anybody is trying to make money out of this ordeal?. I sense paranoia in you. You deliberately sabotaged the debate by mentioning $315000.00. This is unheard of in any settings and let alone in a Christian debate. You are suffering from constipation on the brain and diarrhea on the mouth.

mangalam

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Reply by : pc   View Profile   Since : 22 Mar 2006 5:25:32 AM Close
mang
Is there any Greek medicine for constipation of the brain and diarrhea of the mouth??!!
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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 22 Mar 2006 8:00:48 AM Close
Dear Mangalam

My cheering to Bro. GPK is as per my conscious, not only to him but to others also I did, when I see certain postings are good one as per my belief.

As you compared me with some films stars characters, this site is not for the film critics. May be your character may to suite to other film star.

The intention of the webmasters is
“This Message Forum is to discuss spiritual topics only. Please avoid personal or assembly matters. Let us use this facility for our spiritual enrichment and for bringing glory to our Lord almighty”.

As PC is seeking for “Greek medicine for constipation of the brain and diarrhea of the mouth”, he might have already possessed the diseases.

These are unnecessary remarks.

Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt speech proceed out of your mouth, but such as is good for edifying as the need may be, that it may give grace to them that hear.

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Reply by : pc   View Profile   Since : 25 Mar 2006 3:58:35 AM Close

Sabudhanoor,

You made an unnecessary remark and then quoting scriptures.

'he might have already possessed the diseases.''

These are unnecessary remarks.

Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt speech proceed out of your mouth, but such as is good for edifying as the need may be, that it may give grace to them that hear.

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Reply by : his_warrior   View Profile   Since : 26 Mar 2006 3:32:47 PM Close
do we need a different sort of link (say from a brother sitting next to us on sunday) to commmunicate or to worship God?
Speakin in tongues is the fullness(perfection)of Holy Spirit(some say) How?
If it is something like that it would have been a theme of the entire Bible like Salvation by Faith.Dont it?
I hve attended a few sundays with people speaking in tongues.Wat i observed was there is always a pattern.
Something starts very slowly(song or message),then a particular word is repeated n repeated n repeated,clapping gets faster, lill loudly again repeated,then tongue starts ....and interestingly after two sundays i was able to tell wat a particular person is goin to say like(KARA KARA UNGARA) even if i cudnt understand a single word.Then finally clapping n almost shouting they reach a highly energized state..

I am not a Bible scholar but in Scriptures i didnt find example of anyone who reached this sort of stage bcoz of Holy Spirit.

Tongue was given to estabilish the early Church so Gospel can be spread in the world(i think so.I would like to know from Bro George P K about this )
Paul knew this may be misleading so he rightly says..though he speaks in tongue more than any one,he would prefer to speak a few words in a known tongue, because it edifies.(as Bro George P K)wrote.

Now we have a Mediator in heaven who can of course understand any language...
Let one put our denominations behind and look at this..


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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 26 Mar 2006 11:06:12 PM Close
How can we spread gospel by saying in tongues if it is not understood by the person who is next to us?
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Reply by : sincy_varghese   View Profile   Since : 29 Mar 2006 2:51:11 AM Close
I was reading through GPK's and sharedconcpet's argument. Both of them are on an ego ride, and condemning the other to hell. I hope both of them do not end up there near to each other.

GPK, if this is how the truth(your version of) is defended, then jesus never defended the truth. Jesus was always zealous for God and His things, but as Peter says never defended Himself, but left all judgment to the One who judges righteously.

Sharedconcept, The Holy Spirit is primarily Holy, and then tongues. That holiness is not at all evident in your posts. So what is the work of the Hioly Spirit in your life? Just to mnake you speak in tongues? I doubt such an experience. BTW I am also a believer in the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 29 Mar 2006 4:46:14 AM Close
Dear sincy-varghese,

Before you ask the question, please read the previous threads that are related to this one. I never challenged any one for a debate. I refused, but who was the one who was so desirous of it.

Please read the previous two threads and then make your statement.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : sincy_varghese   View Profile   Since : 29 Mar 2006 8:02:29 AM Close
Dear GPK-
For a Christian,it does not really matter who makes the first provocation, it matters whom we serve. The other person may have made the first provocation, but I refuse to go to that level because I serve Jesus Christ - my Master.

As AW Tozer said - albeit about another but related circumstance - that if the criticism against us is true, then we will do good to heed that, but if it is false, ignore it - it cannot harm us.

-In Christian Love
-Sincy

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Reply by : wilson609   View Profile   Since : 29 Mar 2006 2:08:32 PM Close
dear sis sincy
when somebody attempts to mislead by preaching their flase doctrines, we are not keep our mouths shut.defending in strong terms is no offence.pl read john chapter2 and see what jesus did v 15.u really sound holier than all others on the forum
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Reply by : his_warrior   View Profile   Since : 29 Mar 2006 7:08:57 PM Close
dear ones in Christ,other tongue was the topic initially but somewhere in the middle money matters and challenging became the theme...defending the truth is right but i dont think that many things said about flights,fees n stuffs was required..
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Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 29 Mar 2006 7:52:55 PM Close
Dear sister Sincy,

Quote,

"The other person may have made the first provocation, but I refuse to go to that level becasue I serve Jesus Christ- my master"

Your comments comes across like very pious and
down to earth. Unfortunately, In light of the Word of God, it tend to contradict. When a person is convinced about their faith being scriptural, he/she has every reason to defend that faith using the Word of God. "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have." (1Pet.3:15)

Apollos was convinced about his faith and he was
not shy about proclaiming it to others. "For he
vigorusly refuted the Jews in PUBLIC DEBATE, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ." (Ac.18:28). I did challenge GPK for a debate and I am not denying that and it is in line with the Word of God.

sharedconcept

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Reply by : his_warrior   View Profile   Since : 30 Mar 2006 9:16:02 PM Close
dear sharedconcept,the context of 1 peter 3 is different.it talks about righteousness,Christ and behavior of a Christian under persecution.

Appolos was eloquent,a Jew,well versed in scriptures,fervent in spirit,spoke and taught accurately (see Acts 18:24-)and for these reasons he "....powerfully confuted the Jews in public showing by the scriptures Jesus was Christ".

And of course any believer SHOULD preach Jesus was Christ. NOT OF ANYTHING WHICH IS ASSUMED FROM FEW VERSES OF SCRIPTURES.

and 1 PETER 3:15 in my Bible says"Always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the HOPE that is in you,yet DO IT WITH GENTLENESS AND REVERENCE"

"I don't know why you keep interfering in this conversation. Please keep out of it."----1 feb sharedconcept

"...for you and your
cronies so you all can take that trip together. I am really questioning your judgement.I know you are very close to being an octogenarian. Premature senility is treatable. I hope you will set up an appointment with a doctor. Good luck."
----1 feb 2006 sharedconcept

Is this the way of telling wats right?together with all those money matters...contradiction right?
benny

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Reply by : matt10_8   View Profile   Since : 4 May 2006 9:01:39 AM Close
My heart cries out for unity. I read the news and see death and distruction, I see wars around the world, human life has become worthless to the vast population of the world and morals have fallen through the floor. This is the reality of our world.

I search the internet for encouragement that there is a better side to the nations of the world. Even here on a "Christian" forum we find two "christians" in arguement and condemnation of each other because of differences in thier faith.

The bible is the living word of God. Why can we not all live in peace and harmony. I am a Christian and whilst I would say that the speaking in tongues yes or no arguement within this forum ranks exteremly low against the arguement of Islam vs Christianity??? Stone me with the virtual stones available by download somewhere on the internet if I'm wrong. I have on many occassions discussed the differences between Islam and Christianity with Muslim colleagues and friends with less venom than has been shown in the above.

Br. GPK : <<About speaking in tongues, the saints at Corinth claimed that they have the gift of speaking in tongues and misused it. Apostle Paul corrected them in the 1st epistle to them. He told them that speaking in tongue will cease. Not only that he also told them, though he speaks in tongue more than any one, he would prefer to speak a few words in a known tongue, because it edifies.>> 7 March - Does this mean that we are going by the words and instructions of Apostle Paul? I though we would only go by what God has instructed??

To come back to the original discussion. Explanations I have been offered over time:
"Tongues is the Groaning of the Holy Spirit on our behalf."
"The gift of Tongues is given to allow the Holy Spirit to intersede on our behalf"

I pray earnestly that no matter the content of a forum post, the type of christian (bretheren / pentecostal / charasmatic etc)involved, we will post in a tollerant manner, correcting in love (that means nicely) where appropriate and agreeing to (cont)

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Reply by : matt10_8   View Profile   Since : 4 May 2006 9:26:56 AM Close
(cont..)
Disagree if agreement isn't possible. Is it not more important to follow the most important commandments?
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and Love your neighbour as yourself. Everything else will fall into place.

Let us focus our attentions on Jesus and not on our own petty differences. We should be worshiping in a single voice our Lord and Saviour.

Let Jesus name be praised.

Blessings
...David

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 8 May 2006 8:46:00 AM Close
'matt10_8,' Part-1

You wrote on 4 May 2006 09:01:39, “The bible is the living word of God.” On the next paragraph you asked me two questions: “Does this mean that we are going by the words and instructions of Apostle Paul? I thought we would only go by what God has instructed?”

The above words as quoted are a testimonial to the inconsistency of your thoughts.

To the first question, my answer is that what we read in the scriptures, irrespective of whom God used to reveal His mind and will is the Word of God. Along with others God used Apostle Paul to provide us His word. The first Epistle to the Corinthians by Paul is part of the Word of God, the scriptures. From your first question I presume that you don’t agree to this. This is contrary to the scriptures.

To the second question, my answer is in the affirmative. Since the epistles are the Word of God, they are the only guide for my faith and conduct along with many on this forum. Since, you don’t consider that the epistles of the apostles are not the Word of God, what do you think or consider as the Word of God? Please answer.

Your explanation on tongue as written by you and appear on the fourth paragraph of your posting needs further explanation. Where did you get these two explanations on tongues? If it was from another man, who was that man – your source? Is the ultimate source of the explanation on tongue rooted in the first epistle of Paul to the Corinthians? If your answer is “Yes,” then how do you justify your two questions, I quoted earlier?

(To be cont. part-2)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 8 May 2006 8:50:09 AM Close
'matt10_8,' Part-2

On your two postings of 4 May 2006 you wrote, “Agreeing to Disagree if agreement isn’t possible. Is it not more important to follow the most important commandments?… Let us focus our attention on Jesus and not on our own petty differences.” --- The “love of God” you wrote on that posting is to be further looked into. It is also written in John 14 more than once that keeping the commandments of the Lord Jesus Christ is the only sign of our love to Him. These are the words of the Lord Jesus Christ on the night in which He was betrayed to His eleven (11) disciples. There is no compromise on what He commanded us and is made clear to us through the teachings (doctrines) of the apostles (Acts 2:42). The discussion on ‘Tongues’ is a major doctrine that is taught by the Holy Spirit through Apostle Paul in the Word of God. Any deviation from that teaching is not ‘petty differences.’ They are will-full distortions of God’s word by men in defiance to the teachings of the Holy Spirit. When such deviations and distortions of truth are propagated and marketed in the name of the Holy Spirit, then they are to be shunned.

Your two questions that are quoted at the beginning of these postings are testimonials to the fact that you are not focusing your attention on the Lord Jesus Christ; on the other hand it is on you.

In the Youth Forum, I placed a few questions of concerns resulted from your postings of 20 Feb 2006 and they still remain unanswered. Such will-full actions of not answering questions are one of the reasons for disunity among many Christians. I hope, you will answer my question from the Youth Form (Feb 2006) on that Forum and on these postings.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : matt10_8   View Profile   Since : 9 May 2006 7:26:02 AM Close
To: George P. Koshy

You are a man who will not engage in polite discussion without ripping anything said into tiny pieces just to prove that you know the scripture better than the next man. I pray that God will soften your heart in the future. I have no intention of visiting this site again as I feel that you are leading the visitors of this site astray. Your insistance of every comment, no sorry every word types having a scriptural reference is annoying to the utmost. You are an arrogant man who I hope has others best interest at heart (though not evidently apparent the me).

I leave after several abusive postings from yourself on topics that you are unable distinguish between general sweeping comments and specific references to a specific topic.

I know that I am filled with the Holy Spirit, I know that I have an intimate relationship with Jesus and I know that through Jesus I have enternal salvation. Beyond that I have no need to argue about the scriptures and yours and my interpretation with you or anybody.

Jesus Christ is my living salvation, redeemer and friend. I feel that it is only right to point out that God is the only one who has a right to judge my opinions. You are not an exception. You are offensive, brash and appear arrogant. I hold no ill wishes against you and wish you well on your walk in the Lord and pray that he will soften your heart to listen to others rather than being focussed on tearing every little comment apart.

There is no need to reply to this post as I will not be returning to comment on your reply. I believe you will no doubt reply if nothing but to take this post apart word for word.

To anyone else who may be brave enought to venture into this post I pray that you will receive the encouragement or insight that you seek.

I apologies if I have caused offense to anybody this is not my intention however will every sentence being analysised and over analysied you tend to get a little fed up and have to in the end walk away.

Bless you.

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Reply by : tjs   View Profile   Since : 9 May 2006 10:46:19 PM Close
Matt and others who are hurt by Bro Geoge P Koshy have to ignore his attitude.It is an old Indian tradtion to trash the people who have a different opinion.You can't convert somebody after insulting that person.Now you know why Chritianity failed in India.George Koshy has head knowldge.He never recognize any one else.Everyone is inferior to him.This is the way I understand after reading his posts.He has no humility and not going to recognize anybody.
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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 10 May 2006 8:13:23 AM Close
Dear Readers,

Please allow me to explain myself in the light of the postins by 'matt10_8' and 'tjs.'

years ago, while studying the scriptures, I came across statements such as "It is written in the scriptures," "have ye not read in the scriptures," etc. or similar to it from the sweet lips of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He was addressing the Pharisees, the religious leaders of His day. The Pharisees were making "tiny points" to give pre-eminence to their ideas and theologies and the Lord corrected them. Now 'matt10_8' writes, "Your insistance of every comment, no sorry every word types having a scriptural reference is annoying to the utmost." Why are the scriptures annoying? Yes, I look into the scriptures and accepts what is said in it and rejects my ideas and that of others. I place them on this forum, hoping those who listen to the Word of God could be helped. If any call this arrogance or unacceptable, then so be it. The Pharisees also said the same thing to the Lord. Certain disciples said that they were "hard saying."

Why do a real Crhistian think that citing scriptures, as 'matt10_8" said, is arrogance? We should remember that revival came when believers acccepted what is written in the Word of God and followed it. They suffered. While being baptized, they got baptized in cow dung mixed water. They were cast out of the churches in which they were brought up. If we want revival, return to the Word of God and cling to it. It is not arrogance, it is obedience and showing of our love to our Lord as He said in John 14. We must have uncompromising love to obey His word and not to please men.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : etoile   View Profile   Since : 10 May 2006 10:46:53 PM Close
it very much saddens me to see all of this bickering. would our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ want us to be so divided? THis is the reason that nonbelievers dont want to have anything to do with Christianity, they see how we vainly act like pharisees and do not see our own faults, and they wonder why they would want to be a part of it. wouldnt it please the purpose of Christ to stand together and show the world how we know how to love instead of bashing each other with unkind words and haughty judgements? we should not be so divided because the body of Christ needs all of its parts to be beneficial and whole, not handicapped, to go reach the world...please stops bickering with eachother and show eachother respect...
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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 10 May 2006 11:55:45 PM Close
Dear Readers,

"But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, IF THOU, BEING A JEW, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, WHY COMPELLEST THOU the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Ga 2:14-16 ).

Those of the words of Paul addressed to Peter. Paul says, he WITHSTOOD Peter to the face (Gal 2:11).

The word of God says, "For there are many UNRULY and VAIN TALKERS and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose MOUTHS MUST BE STOPPED, who subvert whole houses, TEACHING THINGS WHICH THEY OUGHT NOT, for filthy lucre's sake. One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are ALWAYS LIARS, EVIL BEASTS, SLOW BELLIES. This witness IS TRUE. Wherefore REBUKE THEM SHARPLY, that they may be SOUND IN THE FAITH" (Tit 1:10-13). If you get offended these words as Paul wrote it, it is your problem. The word of God saves, and also OFFENDS.

The problem with with today's Christians is that they easily get OFFENDED by the word of God. What is important to them is "unity" "love of God" etc., with out knowing what is the "UNITY of the Spirit" and the "love of God." They have never graduated beyond John 3:16. This kind of behaviour comes because of the ignorance of Scriptures. Do you know what Scripture says, "Now we COMMAND you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye WITHDRAW YOURSELVES from EVERY BROTHER that walketh DISORDERLY, and not after the tradition which he received of us" (2 Thess 3:16). Is that LOVE OF GOD? See what I mean?

cont'd..

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 10 May 2006 11:56:25 PM Close
cont'd from above..

I have not found any thing wrong with Bro.George Koshy's replies to 'matt10_8' (David). David's reactions on 9 May 2006 7:26:02 AM are a result of his ignorance of Scriptures. He openly rejected the teachings of apostle Paul and insisted that he would rather follow God. This is the real pride. The real pride and bad attitude of people is in THEIR ATTITUTE TO THE WORD OF GOD. The word of God is a SWORD. It cuts both ways. It saves people, and it punctures their inflated egos also. People STUMBLE at the word.

Tongues as it is practiced today is a HERETECAL practice, and has no support in the word of God. So my appeal to the youngsters here is to consider the questions asked. Bro.Koshy is asking you some questions. Please answer them. "QUIT YE LIKE MEN" and answer questions. Face the truth. Don't get offended by the Scriptural questions. We have BOW to the authority of the Scriptures. Blaming Bro.Koshy that he is proud, arrogant etc does not get you anywhere. Those of you who want to know the real answer to the questions must participate by giving the Scriptures its place. Then can all matters be discussed and settled.

Sincerely in Christ,

Moses LemuelRaj

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Reply by : wilson609   View Profile   Since : 17 May 2006 11:10:25 AM Close
sunila will u vist the site mentioned below and let us know your exphttp://www.users.on.net/~joeflorence/pente1.htmlert comments pl
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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 18 May 2006 6:59:17 AM Close
wilson609,

I am responding only for you because you asked.
-----------------------

Promise for the LAND for Israel was in OT. After Christ's death the promise for eternal life changed. We all are sinners. Both OT people and NT people. OT people had different way of cleansing sins.

Hebrews Chapter 9 (note the verse 9:9)
Hebrews 10:1-18

Promise for Israel is that they inherit the promised land. That has not changed. Jews with gentiles in NT is the hope of salvation. That is same for both Jews and gentiles.

--------------------------

It is not written in the bible that Holy Spirit is NOT received by laying hands. It IS recorded that they received Holy Spirit by laying hands and praying with faith that they received it as Jesus has promised. It is true that Christ is not on earth now. And it is also true that Holy Spirit is on earth now. That doesn't mean that Holy Spirit is in all wicked and saved ones.

Acts 3:19 repent so that your sins may be erased. Note Acts 3:21 and also James 5:13-18.

The heavens, earth and the creation has to go through God's paln. Each of us has to go through our own path which God lead us to fullfil the revelation. God has a great plan.

Hebrews 7:11-28

Note Hebrews 7:11-12

11If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

That is Jesus Christ and His promise holy spirit.


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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 20 Jun 2006 10:17:45 PM Close
Dear Brs,

I read all the discussions above and I am not just writing something which comes into my mind. Even if how much we discuss and question each other, truth is truth and no body can change it, until God reveals it. While studying church history from few centuries back we can see that there is progress in revelation of the truth in the Word of God, Salvation, Adult Baptism, Baptism in Holy Spirit etc.., Unless God revels it, it is impossible to understand any scripture in its correct meaning.

I studied and brought up in a church with teaching that is against other tongues, and Baptism in Holy Spirit etc till my 30's. I studied this subject thoroughly with various books from Simon Sir and Cherian sir. I debated with my Grandpa (who worked with Simon sir in "VIYOJIDA" sabha and later got Baptism in the Holyspirit and separated) since I was very much convinced of teaching in cessation of tongues etc. While I was arguing this subject he was in his 90's and he said to me "I am not a theologian like others, but God reveled the truth (enlightened) from Word of God which I am knowing now". Eventhough I couldn't understand his words at that time but God revealed the truth and now I am convinced from the word of God and experienced it.

Paul (Saul) heard a long preaching from Stephen about the truth, but Saul was very zelous in his teachings becaus he thought what he knows and studied is the truth. But when God REVEALED him the truth, WHICH IS IN THE WORD OF GOD, he became a different man.

IF WE DISCUSS THIS MATTER FOR YEARS WITH ALL THE AVAILABLE RESOURCES IN THE WORLD, NOTHING GOING TO CHANGE UNLESS YOU OPEN yourselves to get the truth and light in your heart about THIS SUBJECT, and GOD ENLIGHTENS YOU.

MAY GOD BLESS YOU ALL.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 21 Jun 2006 7:42:22 AM Close
Dear 'sajimaniyatt,'

If you study a subject from the scrptures without the help of the Holy Spirit, you will not come to know the truth. If you study about the doctrines to debate with your grandpa or any one else, then you are not obeying the Word of God, but increasing certain ideas. The idea you gained may be wrong too. Your postings on this Forum attest to that. There are no more revelation, as you wrote, from God. It is stated in the Revelation of Jesus Christ. All revelations that are to be given to us are given and we read that fact in the Bible. Human history or the Church history are not revelations, but they are our own admission of our failure before God.

If you are a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, Lord, and God, then you should ask the Holy Spirit to guide you as you read the Word of God. You should study that Word of God with the intension of obeying God with understanding of His will and mind, and not debating with others.

Shalom malekim!!!

PS: Why are you medling with sisters in their Forum?

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 21 Jun 2006 1:22:20 PM Close
During church history some centuries much of the truths were hidden such as Adult Baptism,righteousness through faith, Baptism in the Holy Spirit, etc. We must admit, what ever be the terminology we use, it is revelation or enlightening, or our failure, these truths were hidden for centuries at least partially.

Holy Spirit is the guide and what He taught me, I explained in the above postings, is not debating but explains the truth and I sorry it seems debating to somebody.

I am not interested to involve in unnecssary argument and let Holy Spirit be guidance of all of us.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 22 Jun 2006 7:44:16 AM Close
Dear 'sajimaniyatt,'

On 20 Jun 2006 22:17:45 you wrote, "I debated with my Grandpa (who worked with Simon sir in "VIYOJIDA" sabha and later got Baptism in the Holyspirit and separated)..."

About 15 hours later, On 21 Jun 2006 13:22:20 you wrote, "... is not debating..."

Which one is correct? Is this the same way you interpret the scriptures, especially about "Baptism with the Holy Spirit?"

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 22 Jun 2006 12:30:48 PM Close
I am not interested to debate on any subject except giving my experience. I debated with my granpa, may be due to church background in which I grew in my youth.

I am very much convinced about Baptism in the Holy Spirit other than new born experience based on the infallible... word of God.

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 23 Jun 2006 2:41:28 PM Close
In regards to Baptism I explained it in various thread based on WORD OF GOD.
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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 26 Jun 2006 8:23:12 AM Close
Dear 'sajimaniyatt,'

It appears that in all those, you were wrong and contradicting yourself.

Shalom malekim!!!

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