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Keralabrethren.net: Youth Forum: Fornication

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# 00112 :  Fornication
As we have heard that most of the young believers fall prey to fornication. but i have a doubt on this term when can we actually say that one has done fornication???How about this scenario..I know someone who has practised the same in his Christian life..This guy old enuf to get married & met a girl who too is old enuf to get married (both believers.They quickly informed their parents about the same who in return fixed their engagement & fixed the marriage date too.But during their courtship they were physically intimate & had sex & now they are happily married too.The question is what they did during their courtship, can that be terme as "Fornication"?? since they were comitted to each other?? Waiting for response
Post by : godschosen  View Profile    since : 18 May 2006


Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 18 May 2006 8:17:19 AM Close
Did we discuss a similar case before?

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : anubjohn   View Profile   Since : 18 May 2006 9:54:45 AM Close
Fornication is sex before marriage (pre marital sex). There are enough of verses in the Bible which explicitly states that it is a sin and that too a very grave sin. Just because your frien seem to be happily married now that doesn't justify that sin. Love doesn't make sex alright. Sex whether it is between two people who love each other (going to get married or not) or between 2 strangersis equally sinful in the eyes of God.
You wrote that they were committed to each other even before marriage. What does that commitment mean? Do you mean to say that that so called commitment is equally binding as a marriage commmitment. If that was so, then if they had split up during the period of courtship they would have to divorce each other (go through all such procedures) before they marry anyone else. Yopu see a marriage commitment is so much more serious, greater, binding and holy than a shallow commitment that you refer to here.
do you think this couple would have had sex secretly? Do you think the boy would have taken the girl into his room for the night when their parents or some believers were sitting there? Why not? A husband would never be afraid of taking his wife into his room at any time of the day no matter who is present.
Sex is a very respectable act and a very holy act. God wants the people involved to enjoy it to the fullest extent whcih he has planned. That is why he has laid down certain principles and boundaries. When we step over those boundaries He has laid we sin.
Thos couple may seem to be happily married. But let me tell you, if they have not admitted their mistake and repented of it they are not in fellowship with God (even though they may appear to be). Sexual sins are so grave and has very serious consequences and this we see in the life of David. MAy be you should lovingly confront them baout this after having studied on this subject and being convinced by God.
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Reply by : godschosen   View Profile   Since : 18 May 2006 10:44:55 PM Close
Hi..Thanx for the reply..by the Br.George Koshy..Atleast i haven't discussed this before as i'm a new user..&
Response to the posting by anubjohn:

"Fornication is sex before marriage (pre marital sex)."
Would be great if you showed that from scripture or the dictionary.
The words translated fornication:
OT: zanah (Strong's no H02181)
and
NT: porneia (Strong's no G4202):
If you see the Strong's definitions, you see that both refer to virtually all kinds of sexual immorality: listed as one of the meanings is fornication.
So then, what is fornication?
"Sexual intercourse between partners who are not married to each other." (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language)
This raises the question: What is marriage?
I'm only interseted in the Biblical definition:
"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." - Gen 2:24
There are 3 elements:
1) Leaving: Your parents aren't the closest persons on earth to you any more
2) Cleaving: You love the person. (Obviously) he/she has replaced your parents as the closest person on earth
3) One flesh: Physical intimacy.
What's missing from God's definition is the "wedding celebration" which includes calling lots of people, saying repeat after me vows, and spending half your life savings on renting a hall and feeding hundreds of people. Let's be frank and honest. God did not institute these things. These are merely traditions to which God does not object (eg Jesus went for the Cana wedding)
How important is the commitment?
WHAT GOD SAYS:
"What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." - Mr 10:9 (God does not approve of "splitting up" once you've fulfilled all the above 3 conditions)
WHAT GOD DOES NOT SAY:
"The commitment is made "serious, greater, binding and holy" by repeating it in front of so many people".

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Reply by : godschosen   View Profile   Since : 18 May 2006 10:48:47 PM Close
(continued...)
What do we get from all this? If two people decide that they are meant for each other (elements 1 and 2) and then have sex (element 3), in God's sight they are married.
If one of them backs off (perhaps taking advantage of the fact that no one else knows about the whole thing), he/she is committing adultery.
An example of marriage: Isaac and Rebekah
WHAT GOD DOES NOT SAY:
"Abraham called all his friends. Melchizedek solemnised the wedding ceremony" (For all you know, Abraham must have done that - atleast having a feast was part of that culture as Laban would later indicate. My point is that God does not bother to mention it)
WHAT GOD SAYS:
"And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah’s tent [knowing that God wanted her for him - read the context], and took Rebekah, AND SHE BECAME HIS WIFE" - Ge 24:67 (Emphasis added)
It is commitment and sex that make up God's definition of marriage, not a wedding ceremony. Also don't forget the legal formalities! God expects us to respect the laws of the land (when they don't go against His ways - Rom 13:1, Acts 5:29)
---BEGIN QUOTE FROM ANUB JOHN-----
do you think this couple would have had sex secretly? Do you think the boy would have taken the girl into his room for the night when their parents or some believers were sitting there? Why not?
-----END QUOTE---------------------
What about our -newly- saved friends from Hindu families who read their Bible secretly at home? Right or wrong is not determined by whom you're willing to do something in front of (believers or unbelievers). God's word determines it.
Having said all this (Don't get me wrong!)
We also have the directive from scripture:
"judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way." (Rom 14:13).Don't do anything (even if it not wrong) if it will cause a problem with your fellow believers. Most believers today are used to weddings. What's the harm in waiting even if you know that you're committed?
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Reply by : godschosen   View Profile   Since : 18 May 2006 10:49:39 PM Close
(continued...)
(and God help you if your commitment needs a large gathering to authenticate it!)

Also

"Walk in wisdom toward them that are without" Col 4:5

Don't do anything that would bring slander to the name of Christ from unbelievers.

These last two criteria (ie stumbling blocks and slander) are issues specific to the situation/people concerned. It is for each couple to prayerfully decide what needs to be done.

The first part of this posting is not situation-specific. It is God's universal directive on marriage. If anyone tries to violate it by having sex and then backing off or trying to have commitment without sex, they incur God's wrath.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 19 May 2006 7:36:42 AM Close
Dear 'godschosen,'

You will see a similar scenario in the thread, "Rare Case." It appears in this Youth Forum.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : johnny_soj   View Profile   Since : 20 May 2006 2:22:10 AM Close
Dear George Koshy!!
I believe the Thread "rare case" has totally different prob altogether. If u read the prob carefully what godschosen has posted u wud find big difference. There the fellow wants to leave the girl after having slept with her. Here both r commited & are about to marry (Just a mere ceremony)as per the above posting by godschosen on what exactly mariage is in the sight of God. I agree with what Gods chosen has said..Its sex that counts as marriage in God's sight. So when they both slept togehter, they got married in God's sight & just that they were waiting for a ceremony to declare to the world that they r married. Unlike in "rare case" thread.There u'll find what that chap was doing is wrong & its a sin in God's sight..I think godschosen has given a very good & a descriptive message on what is fornication & what is marriage..
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Reply by : anubjohn   View Profile   Since : 20 May 2006 2:39:34 AM Close
Iam not a theologian. I don't know how effectively I can put the truth forward to you. Let me give it a try.
Collins Gem Eng. dict. - "fornicate" - "have sexual intercourse w/o being married".
The New American Webster Dict.says "it is to consummate a love affair when not married".
The Oxford , Merriam Webster says it is consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other (could be unmarried people because when it is between a married person with someone other than his spouse it is called adultery in all those dictionaries).
The word fornicate comes from a Latin word "fornix" which is a place where the prostitues did their trade. You get the word brothel and whoredom from this.
In the Scriptures fornication is used in a general way for sexual immorality. But in some places the scripture distinguishes between adultery and fornication. Gal. 5:19,1 Cor. 6:9,Mk7:21, Matt.15:19. Heb. 13:4-" marriage is honorable aomg all and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will Judge".
Again in 1 Cor. 7:2, I think the best word used is in KJV where it says "because of fornication". Apostle Paul is teeling that it is better if pople don't get married but because of the possibility of sexual immorality (fornication)before marriage let each man get married.
All of the commentaries i have read so far do agree that fornication when thus distinguished refers to sex between two unmarried couple.

The Bible very clearly says that sex outside marriage is a violation against God. By the way sin is a sin because it violates the very character or attributes of God.

I think in your post you mentioned that your friend had physical intimacy with his lover before marriage, during their courtship. It seems that knowingly or unknowingly you also did not consider the period of courtship as marriage. I write "period of courtship" because it ends with marriage.

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Reply by : anubjohn   View Profile   Since : 20 May 2006 4:05:03 AM Close
(continued..)

What is marriage?

According to your defn. commitment + sex makes a marriage. The commitment that you talk about is the same thing as love between two people who desires to get married or a mutual understanding that they are meant for each other. That means two people who think they are made for each other, if they have sex they are married. Can I just put it another way? A girl gets married (the traditional way)to someone arranged by her parents. The marriage is consummated but the girl has not yet "in love" with the man - are they married or not according to you? What about another situation where the boy and the girl gets to love each other but the boy being very magnanimous gives the girl some time to know each othe before having sex Are they married in that intermediate period ? Just trying to put some question to make you think. That's all.

I agree true love should be the basis of a marriage. But love alone doesn't make it a marriage. Sex also doesn't make a marriage. Sex consummates a marriage or completes it. If love and sex made a marriage or the commitment only required that the persons concerned love each other then marriage would have been a serial mongamy. My teen years upto my marriage was spent in a community where pre marital sex was very common and a norm for many. At that time none of us including those involved had any doubts about their love for each other. Many of them had even got the consent of their parents to get married after their studies. But sad to say, out of the whole lot, not even a handful of them got married. There were even believers who really thought that their choice was God's will. But it didn't work. They later on either fell in love with someone else and repeated the same story or got married to someone whom they had never been in love before and are living well now. The problem is that the love that we talk about is more often a counterfeit love and not the love that bible talks.

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Reply by : anubjohn   View Profile   Since : 20 May 2006 4:42:40 AM Close
(contd..)
Our marriage is jsut a shadow of that great marriage betwen christ and His church. They are betrothed, the marriage is yet to take place (Rev 19:7)Till then we are being made ready and how are we going to enter that marriage- as a chaste virgin. Does Christ love the church -Oh yes!!! do we love him- yes!! Is there anythignthat is going to separate us- No. But still we are waiting for that marriage to be consummated.
We may not have all the details written in the Word but we can draw out principles from the Word and that is what we ought to practice. IS there a marriage feast. Yes (Rev.19:9). Feast was man's idea or God's? God planned a feast to go with the real marriage even before he instituted our marriage. The word "marriage" in the Bible always talk about a feast or a ceremony. Lord Jesus did mention about those in His parables. A ceremony is needed because marriage is a social event. How each one conduct the feast is his responsibilty and he is accountable.
The marriage of Issac and Rebekah was another beautiful illustration. Issac didn't just take Rebekah to her tent. So many things happend before. Abrahm was involved, Eleazer was involved, Rebekah and her family (I would say the entire house hold) were involved. Of course Melchizedek brought eleazer to her house and blessed the whole event. There was an engagement (Gen 24:51-53), ten after that you see the picture of our marriage in the words Rebekah says before a large gathering "I will go" (vs.58).
Leaving ,cleaving and being one flesh is not a mental exercise. Itan act to be seen by others. Others should know that you have left, they should know whom you have cleaved to.
Christian marriage is a covenant between the parties, in the sight of God, and normally in the presence of the community of the faithful, as witnesses.
You could read Exo.22:16,17 and Deut22:28,29. Sex did not make them married, they were forced to marry because of that. Marriage could be refused by the father.

God bless

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Reply by : johnny_soj   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2006 1:31:39 AM Close
Reply to Anub:
(Read RIGHT THROUGH before replying. My replies begin with a #)
"Iam not a theologian"
# Neither am I. But I endeavor to know and
practise God's truth, not tradition.

#WHAT I AGREE WITH YOU:
Your explanation of what fornication is. You have taken great pains to repeat what I said. I don't think there is anything that I posted that should make you feel that I endorse fornication and do not realize its a sin (Gal 5: 19 and the other verses you quoted)
By the way, are you trying to validate the
"wedding ceremony" using 1 Cor 7:2? It should be
quite clear that Paul is not saying that we should
have wedding ceremonies (As it is, I doubt he would be able to afford a typical brethren style wedding ceremony!!)
What Paul is saying:
Avoid fornication - element 3 (sex) without elements 1 and 2 (leaving and cleaving)
Go for marriage - all 3 elements.
I'm not saying that fornication is the same as
adultery. What I'm saying is that the "wedding
ceremony" is not something that God has ordained to authenticate a marriage.

MY VERDICT ON THE COUPLE MENTIONED:
From the original posting, I understand that they claim to be committed to each other (ie have elements 1 and 2) and also indulged in sex (3), so IN GOD's SIGHT THEY ARE MARRIED! The courtship is over!!
If any of them backs out later, it is adultery. If
any of them claims that there's no love after all
(Amnon style, minus the forcing/incest), it is
fornication, both of which are sin!
"According to your defn. commitment + sex makes a marriage."

# Its not my definition!!!!!!! After taking the trouble to mention the reference!
"....That means two people who think they are made for each other, if they have sex they are
married."

# I don't say so. God says so.

"A girl gets married (the traditional way)to someone arranged by her parents. The marriage is consummated but the girl has not yet "in love" with the man - are they married or not according to you?"

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Reply by : johnny_soj   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2006 1:42:10 AM Close
(continued...)
# According to me?? I have no views on
marriage. I'm only telling you what Gen 2:24 says.
Are they married according to Gen2:24? If they
aprreciate their parents' choice and fulfill steps 1, 2 and 3 then yes. If they despise their parents' choice and refuse to sleep with the other person, or refuse to love him/her, they are not married IN GOD's SIGHT!
"What about another situation where the boy and the girl gets to love each other but the boy being very magnanimous gives the girl some time to know each other before having sex Are they married in that intermediate period ? "
# Why don't you answer the question yourself? Is Gen 2: 24 being fulfilled?
"If love and sex made a marriage or the
commitment only required that the persons concerned love each other then marriage would have been a serial mongamy"
# No it wouldn't. Your statement ignores "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder" - Mt 19:6. There is a permanence in marriage. If you loved and had sex with someone, and then claimed to love and have sex with someone else, that is adultery.

"My teen years upto my marriage was spent in a
community where pre marital sex was very common and a norm for many. At that time none of us including those involved had any doubts about their love for each other. Many of them had even got the consent of their parents to get married after their studies. But sad to say, out of the whole lot, not even a handful of them got married. There were even believers who really thought that their choice was God's will. But it didn't work. They later on either fell in love with someone else and repeated the same story or got married to someone whom they had never been in love before and are living well now. The problem is that the love that we talk about is more often a counterfeit love and not the love that bible talks."

# The mistakes that people make, whether in
discerning God's will or ditching the person that
they had sex with (ADULTERY) do not change God's
definition of marriage.

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Reply by : johnny_soj   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2006 1:54:04 AM Close
(continued..)
If you want to know what mariage is, stop looking at your community and start looking at God's word with an open mind.
"The problem is that the love that we talk
about..."
# I hope you're not including me in that "we". I'm not talking about a vague "love" that can disappear after a few years. I'm only talking about "leaving" and "cleaving" by someone who's willing to obey Mt 19:6, not any teenie weenie nonsense.

"IS there a marriage feast. Yes (Rev.19:9). Feast was man's idea or God's?"
Don't make the (stupid) mistake of concluding something about earthly marriage by noticing a feature of the heavenly marriage. On the same grounds, I can argue that earthly bridegrooms should undergo torture before they marry (the heavenly bridegroom did!) Don't you think 1st century AD, when Rev is being written, is a bit late for God to reveal His "idea"?
"The word "marriage" in the Bible always talk about a feast or a ceremony."

# How do you expect me to respond to a
statement like this?
1) Rant at you for lying?
2) Prove to you that I'm not dumb by telling you how many times the word marriage occurs in scripture, how many times feast occurs, and how many times feast actually refers to marriage? The first number is 19, by the way (KJV)
3) Ignore your posting because it contains
this lie?
"A ceremony is needed because marriage is a social event."
"Of course Melchizedek brought eleazer to her house and blessed the whole event."
"Leaving ,cleaving and being one flesh is not a mental exercise. Itan act to be seen by others. Others should know that you have left, they should know whom you have cleaved to."
"Christian marriage is a covenant between the parties, in the sight of God, and normally (YEAH RIGHT!!! BE IT KNOWN TO YOU THAT MY INTEREST DOES NOT LIE IN NORMALCY BUT IN WHAT GOD HAS ORDAINED) in the presence of the community of the faithful, as witnesses."

# Anub, if you want to say stuff, then back it up with scripture. The above 4 statements are not worth responding to.

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Reply by : johnny_soj   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2006 1:59:37 AM Close
(continued..)
If you want to know what mariage is, stop looking at your community and start looking at God's word with an open mind.
"The problem is that the love that we talk
about..."
# I hope you're not including me in that "we". I'm not talking about a vague "love" that can disappear after a few years. I'm only talking about "leaving" and "cleaving" by someone who's willing to obey Mt 19:6, not any teenie weenie nonsense.

"IS there a marriage feast. Yes (Rev.19:9). Feast was man's idea or God's?"
Don't make the (stupid) mistake of concluding something about earthly marriage by noticing a feature of the heavenly marriage. On the same grounds, I can argue that earthly bridegrooms should undergo torture before they marry (the heavenly bridegroom did!) Don't you think 1st century AD, when Rev is being written, is a bit late for God to reveal His "idea"?
"The word "marriage" in the Bible always talk about a feast or a ceremony."

# How do you expect me to respond to a
statement like this?
1) Rant at you for lying?
2) Prove to you that I'm not dumb by telling you how many times the word marriage occurs in scripture, how many times feast occurs, and how many times feast actually refers to marriage? The first number is 19, by the way (KJV)
3) Ignore your posting because it contains
this lie?
"A ceremony is needed because marriage is a social event."
"Of course Melchizedek brought eleazer to her house and blessed the whole event."
"Leaving ,cleaving and being one flesh is not a mental exercise. Itan act to be seen by others. Others should know that you have left, they should know whom you have cleaved to."
"Christian marriage is a covenant between the parties, in the sight of God, and normally (YEAH RIGHT!!! BE IT KNOWN TO YOU THAT MY INTEREST DOES NOT LIE IN NORMALCY BUT IN WHAT GOD HAS ORDAINED) in the presence of the community of the faithful, as witnesses."

# Anub, if you want to say stuff, then back it up with scripture. The above 4 statements are not worth responding to.

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Reply by : johnny_soj   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2006 2:25:08 AM Close
(continued..)
"Lord Jesus did mention about those in His parables."
# He even went for the Cana wedding feast. I had hoped my last posting conveyed the difference between
WHAT GOD HAS ORDAINED
and WHAT GOD ACKNOWLEDES AS EXISTING/DOES NOT OBJECT TO!!!
Please note that I am not saying that wedding ceremonies are wrong. I'm just saying that GOD HAS NOT INSTITUTED THEM!

"There was an engagement (Gen 24:51-53),"
# No there wasn't. I also have a Bible.

"Rebekah says before a large gathering "I will go" (vs.58)"
# Again, the liberty with which you stretch the truth makes me wonder. The "large gathering" that you mention is "her brother and her mother" along with Eleazar! (I don't count other servants that made the trip with Eleazar. It does not say they were present to hear her.)
Did you expect her to run away with Eleazar?! Informing your loved ones about a decision is sensible, loving and God honoring, but it is not the same as a "wedding ceremony"!!
When I claim (from scripture) that God has not instituted the wedding ceremony, I don't mean that we should go about marriage as if we're stealing a cookie!!
"You could read Exo.22:16,17 and Deut22:28,29. Sex did not make them married, they were forced to marry because of that. "
# Did I say that sex makes people married?! (Sigh!) It is only one of 3 elements!! Can't you see that when people fulfill just one element, God indicates that he wants them to fulfill the others as well!!

Marriage could be refused by the father."

# What about polygamy and divorce? Do you endorse these things because God permitted them in the OT? God grant you the wisdom to distinguish between the

"for the hardness of your hearts"

and the

"from the beginning it was not so AND but now I say unto you".

Face scriptural reality, Anub!!

While it is true that

*most cultures have marriage feasts
*God did not object to them
*there is a marriage supper of the lamb
*some people who did not go through a feast mess up their marriage (not to mention those who had grand wed

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Reply by : johnny_soj   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2006 2:26:39 AM Close
(continued..)
who had grand weddings that also end in divorce!)

It is still true that

GOD HAS NOT INSTITUTED THE WEDDING CEREMONY FOR MARRIAGE BETWEEN A MAN AND WOMAN.

He has instituted a lot of other things like passover, day of atonement, etc for which I can find (-large- passages) of scripture where God institutes it.

If you can find a Bible passage where God insitutes a wedding ceremony and prescribes details (the other ceremonies that He instituted have pretty detailed instructions!) then reply to this posting quoting it, and I will admit that I'm wrong and you are right. I will ignore any reply posting of yours if it does not include such a passage. If you are not willing to listen to God's word, there's no way I can convince you.

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Reply by : johnny_soj   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2006 2:29:27 AM Close
Sorry... by the way..i have 2 ids..i was not able to login with the id "godschosen". It gave some error
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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2006 8:39:07 AM Close
Dear Readers, Part-1

To understand the meaning of ‘fornication’ we should consider all occurrences of that word, at least in the New Testament. The Greek word that is translated ‘fornication’ is PORNEIA or PORNOS, from which we have the English word ‘pornography.’ The following is the list of verses where these Greek words appear in the New Testament.

Matthew 5:32 – …whosoever put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, caused her to commit adultery…
Matthew 15:19 -- For out of the heart come forth…fornication …
Matthew 19:9 -- …whosoever put away his wife, not for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery.
Mark 7:21 -- …from within…proceed…fornication…
John 8:41 – We be not born of fornication…
Acts 15:20 -- …that they abstain from…fornication, …
Acts 15:29 -- …that ye abstain … from fornication…
Acts 21:25 -- …only that they keep themselves…from fornication…
Romans 1:29 – Being filled with…fornication, …
1 Corinthians 5:1 -- …that there is fornication among you…
1 Corinthians 5:1 -- …fornication is not so much as named…
1 Corinthians 5:9 -- …not to company with fornicators…
1 Corinthians 5:10 – Yet not altogether with fornicators…
1 Corinthians 5:11 -- …if any man…be a fornicator…
1 Corinthians 6:9 -- …neither fornicators, nor idolators,…
1 Corinthians 6:13 – Now the body is not for fornication…
1 Corinthians 6:18 – Flee fornication.
1 Corinthians 6:18 -- …he that commits fornication sins against his own body.
1 Corinthians 7:2 -- …to avoid fornication…
1 Corinthians 10:8 – Neither let us commit fornication… à Numbers 25:1, 9
2 Corinthians 12:21 -- …have not repented of the…fornication
Galatians 5:19 – Now the works of the flesh…are…fornication…
Ephesians 5:3 – But fornication…let it not be once named…
Colossians 3:5 -- …fornication…inordinate affection…
1 Thessalonians 4:3 -- …that ye should abstain from fornication…

(To be cont. Part-2)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2006 8:40:45 AM Close
Dear Readers, Part-2

Hebrew 12:16 – Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person…
Jude 7 -- …giving themselves over to fornication…
Revelation 2:14 -- …sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication…
Revelation 2:20 -- …she teaches…to commit fornication and eat of idol sacrifices…
Revelation 2:21 -- …space to repent of her fornication…
Revelation 9:21 – Neither repented…of their fornication…
Revelation 14:8 -- …the wine of the wrath of her fornication…
Revelation 17:2 – With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication…
Revelation 17:2 -- …drunk with the wine of her fornication…
Revelation 17:4 -- …abominations and filthiness of her fornication…
Revelation 18:3 -- …the wine of the wrath of her fornication…
Revelation 18:3 -- …the kings of the earth have committed fornication…
Revelation 18:9 – The kings of the earth who have committed fornication with her…
Revelation 19:2 -- …did corrupt the earth with her fornication…

In Ephesians 5:3 we read that fornication should not be named among us. In Colossians 3:5 we read, “… fornications, evil lusts, and unbridled desire, which is idolatry.” In this verse, the Word of God connects fornication with idolatry. In 1 Corinthians 6:9, Revelation 2:14, and 2:20 we again read a connection between idolatry and fornication. Fornication is also connected with living in wealth and luxury.

In this context, we should consider idolatry. What is idolatry? In Greek an idol is EIDOS, means ‘form.’ EIDOLON means a ‘formling’ – a little form. Every little form is called an EIDOS, idol. ‘Idolatry’ is all attendance and service to and about every idol. Idolatry is not practiced under that name, but it is practiced in a function of worship of Satan. The idolatry replaces the worship of God with that of Satan. People who are called by the name of Christ should not practice it.

(To be cont. Part-3)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2006 8:42:11 AM Close
Dear Readers, Part-3

Similarly, fornication is not practiced under the name of PRONOS or ‘pornography.’ At the same time, it is practiced under a function that is related to ‘making love.’ Fornication replaces making love to ones spouse with that of another person opposite sex. To commit fornication love is not a necessary or sufficient requirement, only a passion that results from lust of the flesh. In fornication the spouse is replaced by one of the opposite sex, as God is replaced by Satan in idolatry. By which both corrupts the earth.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : anubjohn   View Profile   Since : 25 May 2006 7:09:00 AM Close
Dear godschose,

1. The word "gamos" used for marriage, wedding, denotes a ceremony and it's proceedings. You can refer to "Vine's complete expository dict. The word "ceremony" does not mean a big party. It means a an occassion where a formal act takes place. The ceremony was followed by a feast later on.
In the garden of eden when God brought Eve to Adam and gave her to him and when Adam recieved her, that was a ceremony with God as a witness.
I would say that what happened in Rebekah's house was a ceremony. Late you see in Jacob's case, though he loved Rachel he did not just sleep with her but there was a formal ceremony. You read of Samson who saw a girl and told his parents to get her for him. We also read of the term "giving" or "taking" in marriage. That is a ceremony.

In Exo.22:16, where a man finds a woman and lies with her, he is asked to pay the bride price and then she shall be his wife. See it is not the sex perse that has made her his wife. He had to do something more to make him his wife.
This is God's law. God had given His children certain ceremonial and moral laws. In that Law
God never permitted adultery or divorce. He has said that both were an abomination to Him. The punishment for adultery was death (deut 22:22, Lev. 20:10. Later in NT you read Christ saying that moses permitted a certificate of divorce.

Coming to what I wrote about Melchizedek, Melchizedek was a symbol of the Lord jesus (Heb 7:2,3). MAny Bible scholars say that incident were he met Abraham was the appearance of preincarnate Christ. That is why I wrote so because it was God who led Eleazer all the way to Rebekah's house.

Godschosen, your initial post was whether your friends were guilty of fornication. Then you went on to say that since they slept together they are married. And then in your reply to GK you seem to be endorsing and commending that view of yours. You may be able to see better if you stop trying to justify and establish your views. Calm down.

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Reply by : godschosen   View Profile   Since : 26 May 2006 5:53:47 AM Close
Anub..i will once again request u to read through my previous postings. I think u should start reading from my 1st posting onwards..Coz looks like u have either chose to ignore what i have mentioned in my previous postings or u haven't read it carefully..Hence i adjure u to read all my postings right from the start, word by word..Till then i will not reply to any of ur postings..And can u pls stop asking questions which are already answered.Don't ask me what the answer is.I request u to pls go back to my postings & find out the answers to ur questions, for urself..And by the way..i have kept my cool already..i think its u who have lost ur own patience & is being juvenile in replying back to my postings immediately without even reading the postings carefully & without even citing from the Scripture..Grow up Anub & whatever u say pls back it up with scripture (with a proper reference which is clear which states exactly what u say) & don't just assume things while citing from the scripture.May GOD guide u. Thanx...:-)
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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 26 May 2006 8:41:17 AM Close
Dear 'godschosen,'

When I read your postings, I am lost. It is peppered with 'codes,' and I don't know what they stand for. If you could write in English using proper English words, it will be helpful. This is a forum and you should respect that. It requires using proper English words for the benefit of others, not necessary to yourself. It will help. Please take a few more minutes to make yourself understandable to others. That is one of the purposes of communication. If you insist on coding your postings, then I may write something with my understanding, and there is no use of asking me to read your previous postings. I already did that. This may be the case with 'anubjohn.'

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : godschosen   View Profile   Since : 27 May 2006 4:57:53 AM Close
Hello Br.George Koshy..
I do not understand which codes u r talking about?Can u list down the codes that u have come across in my postings..then maybe i can explain.. I have just used some abbreviations which is universally accepted like KJV, O.T, N.T..& in my last posting,i have ended it with a symbol of smile:-)..r u trying to say that these r codes for u?..And by the way i don't think all of my postings r written in greek or latin & its quite visible that the alphabets r in english,readable. i have used plain & simple english to understand, maybe there r some typo errors. But if u claim that there are so called codes which doesn't make u understand the entire posting, then pls list them down,it'll be helpful 4 me to make u understand in a better way, coz i couldn't find any such codes in my postings...Thanx 4 ur co-operation
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Reply by : etoile   View Profile   Since : 27 May 2006 10:30:01 AM Close
dear "godschosen" brother koshy is referring to your americanized (whether you know it or not)typing habits. for instance you use "ur" instead of "your or you're" and "u" for "you" and "pls" for "please" and "r u" for "are you". 'godschosen' it is NOT common for people to completely understand these "codes" that he speaks of, it is not a code to you and i because we are familiar to them, obviously you know american slang very well (just as i do since i am from america), but others on this site may not and so if you could please use correct spelling and grammar it would be a great help. thanks...etoile
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Reply by : noble13   View Profile   Since : 28 May 2006 8:50:55 AM Close
hey godschosen,

Some more 'codes' that you can steer clear of in addition to what etoile has pointed out:

1. You have used 4 instead of For.
2. You have used two different ids in this forum, i.e. 'godschosen' and 'johnny_soj' and have made efforts to clarify that only once, that too after you posted an enormously long reply to anubjohn.

Hope you will take these pointers into consideration while you post next.

cheers
noble

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Reply by : godschosen   View Profile   Since : 29 May 2006 3:09:43 AM Close
Thanks for the feedback..etiole & noble..Anyway there are two reasons why i use abbreviatons.(1) to manage time & c to it that i don't waste much time in typing the whole word that can be denoted by one letter or digit..(2)Because there is a limited space in the dialog box & i wanna submit my entire posting at one go.Hence i use abbreviations.When i type, i type fast & i look on the keyboard for the letters & not on the screen.So i don't know if i have made mistakes.When i have finished typing, i just run over the text & in the process i may skip to amend any extra article or a verb that makes the sentence sound gramatically incorrect.Anyway thanks...I will be more carefully on that part now if it really makes no sense to the readers who find them as codes.But at the same time, can i also hear from the same brother who wrote that i have used codes,does he too mean the same abbreviations as coeds that etiole has mentioned??Also noble, how many times you expect a person to notify the readers that he/she has two ids & both are used by the same person?In your posting you said that "i have put efforts to clarify only once".See when i realized that it may be perplexing to the readers,i immediately brought it to the readers' notice.Anyway thank you for the feedback.I will certainly deem these things before i submit my text..Anyway lets not deviate from the main theme of this thread.
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Reply by : etoile   View Profile   Since : 29 May 2006 10:17:00 AM Close
"godschose" you have an entry in "problems allyouth face" and it fdoesnt have abbreviations and it also is much longer than the one that was "peppered" with codes, so i want to say that you obviously can write with out abbreviations and two that you can write perfectly long responses on one reply and three, if it takes to much more time to press one or two more letters and have everyone understand you than skipping letters and not have everyone understand you, then what youre writing about must not be very important...
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Reply by : samuel_4christ   View Profile   Since : 10 Jul 2006 5:36:36 AM Close
Hi everyone!!
So far i have been a silent reader but this topic is really provoking me to add my understanding by what the scripture says & it is the same as that of godschosen's post on .
By the way, godschosen, i got a little
perplexed afetr reading the dialog between you &
anubjohn, coz you have also used ur another id.Yet i think you should have mentioned that in the beginning itself to avoid confusion.However, good work..your post also has scriptural backing, hence its quite clear from the word of God that all 3 elements constitute marriage in God's sight & not just a mere ceremony in the presence of the public.

Good explanation.

Also George P Koshy also has done a wonderful job of listing down all the verses consisting the word
"fornication" from the scripture which has different meaning in different passages in the scripture.

Sam

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Reply by : samsonjohn2003@yahoo.com   View Profile   Since : 23 Oct 2006 12:19:21 AM Close
hi everybody!
This is a serious issue and bible clearly and simply says that whosoever do sex before marriage does fornication. Thats simple and final.
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Reply by : godschosen   View Profile   Since : 24 Nov 2006 5:23:19 AM Close
Dear samsonjohn..u said "whosoever do sex before marriage does fornication"..Of course its simple & final too..but for that we'll need to understand whats marriage according to you in God's sight?? Is it a mere ceremony??? SO u mean to say indirectly before the ceremony & the fixed date of your marriage if one has sex then he/she have indulged in fornication???
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Reply by : servetus   View Profile   Since : 4 Feb 2007 12:20:12 PM Close
someone clearly is overlooking Isaac's story...
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Reply by : joyboy   View Profile   Since : 5 Feb 2007 4:04:01 PM Close
What does Isaac's story say, that's pertinent to this thread?
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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 7 Feb 2007 12:16:32 PM Close
Dear 'servetus,'

You must read what the Lord Jesus Christ said about this subject from the Gospels.

You being a follower of Servetus, may not believe in the divinity of the Son. Then, why are you claiming to be a follower of Christ?

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : job15   View Profile   Since : 8 Feb 2007 7:45:46 AM Close
'servetus' is making use of this forum to propogate his fanciful ideologies when he referred to the following
<<-- women are just here for our use. they are lower than man and are here for our benefit. -->>

There are many guys like these who masquerade as logical thinkers.


Forum users, better be careful of such proponents who read the bible just for their reasoning / gratification and do not heed to anyones' viewpoint.

Job

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 8 Feb 2007 9:16:13 AM Close
Dear 'servetus,'

I am not agravated by Panteists. I live among them.

About the new technology, you are using it to propagate the Satanic theories, which Satan himself is afraid to propagate.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 12 Feb 2007 8:45:01 AM Close
Dear Servetus,

calling a spade a spade is not hatred.

The ideas you have been trying to spread in these fora are definitely satanic -- because they are totally contrary to the Scriptures. Worse, you are tying to contaminate minds-in-formation. It is definitely satanic ideas.

I am sure that Dr. Koshy knows A LOT about Satan. Every child of God should know. However, I am sure that, he DOES NOT know the devil the way you know.

Johnson C. Philip

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 12 Feb 2007 12:21:54 PM Close
Dear 'servetus,'

I know a lot about Satan. It was my Lord who took me out of his influence. It was because my Father loved me so much.

I know what are the theories of Satan. One is to make people to say that there are many gods and quote the verses out of context. You did this.

Another tactic of Satan is to make men align with his former agents like the hsitorical Servetus, who lived dutring the days of John Calvin.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 15 Feb 2007 7:47:15 AM Close
Dear 'servetus,'

I also know that Satan trembles before my God and His word. He likes to approach God's children like me and others on this Forum in the appearance of an angel of light using other human beings. What about you?

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : marcopolo   View Profile   Since : 28 May 2007 5:45:20 AM Close
Like the word gay, it seems that there is enough evidence to clearly show those who study this that the word fornication is the basis for much false doctrine today, because the word did not mean what it does today! The word today means sex before marriage between single people, IT DID NOT mean that when the Holy Spirit wrote the original word in Greek or Hebrew!
Do a search on the true meaning of the word, and for your own sanity please make sure they are speaking from proofs and not from church traditions, that man have tampered with and become man made doctrines rather than the teachings from God.
In a nutshell, fornication does not mean sex between single unmarried people. Do your homework and you will see for yourself.

There is sooo much ignorance and finger pointing today and many of this is based on man made doctrines!

Oh for the light of the TRUTH to shine on these dark ages church traditions that are not based on truth but private interpretation of scripture that Peter warned us about!

So in answer to your question, the two that got married were not committing fornication according to bible truth. And it is that we are really interested in isn't it?

Love and blessings

Marcopolo

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 28 May 2007 9:47:01 AM Close
Hello 'Marcopolo,'

What is the meaning of 'gay?' In Greek the word is LAMPROS, which means 'bright,' and it appears in James 2:3. In KJV, it is translated as 'gay.' Who are these 'bright' people that you inferred to in the beginning of your posting?

Since you indicated about the Hebrew and Greek words for 'fornication,' I invite you to provide them with references and your understanding of it.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : elf_asura   View Profile   Since : 16 Jun 2007 10:30:11 PM Close
CONCERNING CODES LIKE u, ur, 4, etc...
Wait till the SMS generation takes over this discussion board. Doth ye not know all, ye ignorant imbeciles, (I mean this as a joke so don't draw me over the hot coals, okay?)that an entire Bible has now been put out in SMS code for the "now" generation and the "next" generation?
As such there is no longer a Queen's English ...it might be wiser for the "older" Queen's English type of "backwater" Malayalis to realise that the world and languages and language codes have gone far beyond what they studied so hard to become adept at!
Isn't that the Lord's doing?
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Reply by : mom23   View Profile   Since : 18 Jun 2007 9:16:13 PM Close
Dear "elf_asura"...

Really darling! you do need to take a chill-pill!! You are really on a roll here, aren't you? Thrashing anybody and everybody all whilly-nilly!
(Oh! I meant this as a joke too.)

I figure you have some points to make, but going all insulting & patronising on folks won't get ur point across...it just makes them block u out!!

So, just calmly and reasonably state your points/thoughts...u never know people might actually agree with you then. Hope u take this with a dollop of sugar!!

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