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Keralabrethren.net: Youth Forum: Baptism in the Holy Spirit

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# 00114 :  Baptism in the Holy Spirit
When do you receive the Holy Spirit? I think most if not all of us can agree that the moment you accept Christ as your personal Savior the Holy Spirit takes up His residence in your heart (Galatians 4:6; I Corinthians 3:16; and, 6:19). From the Spirit will come the strength to live a Christ-centered life. So what is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit? The New Testament actually talks about four different Baptisms. One, the Baptism with water unto repentance (John the Baptist – Matt. 3:11a; Acts 19:4). Two, the Baptism with water; identifying with Christ (disciples – Matt. 28:18-20, Rom. 6:3,4). Three, the Baptism into the Body of Christ (Holy Spirit – I Corinthians 12:13). Four, the Baptism with the Holy Spirit (Jesus - Matt. 3:11; John 1:33; Acts 2:32-33). I cannot understand that if we believed in the first three, then why can’t we believe in the last one? Is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit necessary? For salvation, no because we are justified by faith. What are the benefits of receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit? A greater love and understanding of God’s Word, a greater desire to pray and an ability to pray, a greater desire for holiness and Christ likeness, a holy boldness to witness, a deeper lover for the brethren, a yearning compassion for the lost, and overflowing “joy in the Holy Spirit”, and times of refreshing. http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week935/cover.html “there are between 400 and 600 million Pentecostals and Charismatics in diverse congregations around the globe. Most are considered part of the broad category of "evangelical." But Pentecostals emphasize the individual experience of the Holy Spirit manifested in "gifts" such as speaking in tongues, healing the sick, casting out demons, and prophesying, and an enthusiastic style of praise and singing that is being adopted even in non-Pentecostal churches.” No where does it say in the Bible that people will stop healing in the name of Jesus, cast out demons in the name of Jesus, etc. God Bless!
Post by : bthomas  View Profile    since : 7 Jun 2006


Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 8 Jun 2006 7:36:00 AM Close
Dear 'bthomas,'

We have discussed about baptism with the Holy Spirit in various threads, before. I request you to read them.

About your question, "No where does it say in the Bible that people will stop healing in the name of Jesus, cast out demons in the name of Jesus, etc." --- As the Holy Spirit helps, the sick are healed and demons are cast out, even today. In this connection, along with the claims and practices of Pentecostals and Charismatics, please allow me to ask, expecting an answer for this question: Where in the scriptures we read that healing the sick and casting out demons are the primary functions of preaching the gospel? I don't see that in the Book of Acts of the Apostles or in any of the epistles. I wait to hear the answers, with scriptural references.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : bthomas   View Profile   Since : 8 Jun 2006 5:50:11 PM Close
"Where in the scriptures we read that healing the sick and casting out demons are the primary functions of preaching the gospel?"

Preaching the gospel is to spread the good news of Christ.

Healing in the name of Jesus is just a tool and not a primary function of preaching the gospel.

Luke 9:1-2
Jesus Sends Out the Twelve
1When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.

Luke 10:1, 9, 17
1After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.
9Heal the sick who are there and tell them, 'The kingdom of God is near you.'
17The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name."

People all over the world are getting healed by having faith in Jesus Christ. People are getting healed of cancer, of AIDS, etc.

Many people ask me, hey there are these guys who people go to, to get healed. I say, no these people are healed because they had the faith in Christ and not because of these preachers. No one knows what is inside the heart of the preachers, only God does. So we can’t say because a person who has a healing ministry is “great”, because the healing is done by Jesus Christ the healer, because the people have faith in Him.

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Reply by : bthomas   View Profile   Since : 8 Jun 2006 5:54:57 PM Close
"We have discussed about baptism with the Holy Spirit in various threads, before. I request you to read them."

I tried reading some of it. I feel you guys are just making it complicated. It is very simple; it is an experience that is experienced by millions of Christians today, across denominations. No where in the Bible does it say that the experience that was experienced by our Apostle fathers has stopped.

God Bless!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 9 Jun 2006 10:33:41 AM Close
Dear 'bthomas,'

Your two postings show that you are confounding the 'Kingdom' and the "assembly." In the kingdom there are more than the family. In the family only the children who are adopted in the Only Begotten of the Father are there. In 1 Corinthians (where we read about the Corinthians practice of giving prominence to speaking in tongues, and other manifestation of what they considered of the Spirit) Apostle Paul wrote, "We preach Christ crucified." He did not write, "we preach healing the sick and casting out of demon." It is the addition of modern day 50th Day people, the Pentecostals and Charismatics.

Well, no one should think that which is revealed by God is to take a secondary place compared to human teachings. You must study the scriptures and it should be done with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : emmanuel1   View Profile   Since : 10 Jun 2006 1:27:18 AM Close
Dear 'bthomas',
Can you please define 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit'......
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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 16 Jun 2006 1:01:18 AM Close
Dear Brothers,
I believe in second experience of the Holy Spirit.
http://www.awmi.net/extra/article/holy_spirit
God Bless
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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 16 Jun 2006 7:42:23 AM Close
Dear Br.,
May I give some explanation regarding Baptism. This is not to argue and defeat somebody else, but just to express what I experienced and biblically convinced. If anybody has got a different opinion,I do not intent to oppose it but this is just for your thought.

Baptism in water means immersed in water. Same like water Baptism, Holyspirit Baptism is immersing in Holy spirit. We can be filled with water by drinking and also we can immerse in water. Same like we can be get filled in Holy spirit and immersed in Holyspirit. You may say, Holyspirit is an Individual and it is not possible to have Baptism. But Word of God clearly says, difference between both expressions (filling & Baptism) and it is as follows:

1. Where ever Baptism in the Holy spirit mentioned in the word of God it is clearly mentioned as Holy spirit came “UPON” them. Ref: Act 1:8, 2:3, 2:17, 8:16, 10:44, 19:6. (KJV)
2. Another expression mentioned is “Filled with Holy Spirit”. Acts: 2:4, 4:8, 4:31,6:5, 7:55,9:17, 11:24, 13:9, 13:52. (KJV)etc

It is a common experience to every believer to be filled with the Holy Spirit when they hear the word of God/when they stand to preach eg.4: 8, 4: 31 (everybody filled with) etc.

As a believer who is convinced of Baptism in the Holyspirit, - let me explain to you it is a sad thing to have unnecessary argument on this subject. Word of God says when Holy Spirit COME UPON YOU, you will get power …Acts 1:8. Baptism will give you power to be his witnesses. I am not against somebody suggests "I have power and a witness now" let their faith guids them. But if you need a ministry in Acts, you must get Baptism of the Holy Spirit.This is the same ministry about Jesus/Peter/Paul etc in Acts 10:38 etc.

Unless you get a revelation from the Word of God about Baptism rather believe in your traditional belief, it is rather difficult to understand. If you are a truth seeker and open hearted God will guide you.

I explained this not as an argument and I do not intend to do so.

GOD BLES

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Reply by : bthomas   View Profile   Since : 16 Jun 2006 9:43:01 AM Close
Thank you brother sajimaniyatt.

God Bless!

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 16 Jun 2006 10:35:15 PM Close
Dear Br.,
In order to avoid confusion, let me explain further:
1. During Born Again experience Holy Spirit comes into us (COMES INTO US)
2. When hearing word of God or preaching etc (God fills with the Holy spirit)
3.Baptism in the Holy Spirit is HOLY SPIRIT COMES UPON US (I explained it UPON in my earlier posting). This means we are get baptised in the Holy Spirit.

Le me explain further- It is like a glass having water, glass filled with water, and glass immersed in water.

This convinced me biblically about Baptism in the Holy Ghost which is needed for life which Jesus Said in Acts 1:9 - you will receive POWER FROM HOLY SPIRIT.

GOD BLESS

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 18 Jun 2006 5:53:43 AM Close
Dear All,
(Copy of message regarding cessation of tongues)
May I explain to something about the tongues. So, why is there so much debate over this issue of Baptism in the Holyspirit, Gift of the spirit like tongues etc? The sad truth is that denial of the ministry and power of the Holy Spirit is a CONVENIENT theology. Believing that miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit don’t operate today excuses powerless living. If it’s true that the Holy Spirit is still willing to move as in biblical times (and it is true), then there is no excuse for living lives so far removed from the victory portrayed in God’s Word.

The number one reason people resist the ministry of the Holy Spirit is because it exposes the lack of power in their lives. And once exposed, it demands a change. In an attempt to avoid responsibility for change, they change the Scriptures instead of themselves. Of course, it’s not that blatant, but there is a predisposition against the ministry of the Holy Spirit, so the Scripture is twisted to support their views.I am not experiencing the gifts and power of God therefore it do not exists.

Fake notes are so much in every currency means that there is a true currency. Since there is fake currency I cannot claim that there is no real currency.

No one wants to admit that their lives are the result of their choices and actions. It’s appealing to think that someone else is at fault for their messed up lives. Sadly, the lack of personal responsibility in our society has crept into the attitudes of the churches and hence open your hearts to God ask for God to the truth rather than hiding the face from truth.

This is my understanding and NOT AN ARGUEMENT against anybody else discussion.

GOD BLESS.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 19 Jun 2006 7:51:15 AM Close
There are a lot of fake currency denominations in 10, 50, and 100. We call all of them fake and have no value.

What do 'sajimaniyatt' consider as 'Baptism with the Holy Spirit?' I just want to know what is fake and what is real.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 19 Jun 2006 8:21:18 AM Close
Dear Br.
I already explained above in 16th june postings above (2- postings).

So many bible teachers claims that other tongues etc speaking by other groups are fake. Nobody make Rs 25/- fake currency and even if made anybody knows (no need much education) it is fake.

God Bless

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 19 Jun 2006 4:02:29 PM Close
Baptism in Holy Spirit is 'Baptism by Holy Spirit'. How can it be fake. Real is real. How can be Holy Spirit 'fake'. Holy Spirit is not fake. It is from God. There is no fake baptism in holy spirit.

God Help.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 19 Jun 2006 4:07:12 PM Close
That money is man made. Holy Spirit is not man made. We cannot make it. Holy Spirit came down from heaven.

God bless.

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 20 Jun 2006 6:10:42 AM Close
I mentioned in my positing of Fake currency, is not about Baptism in the Holy Spirt, but about Gifts such as speaking in tongues etc.

Satan's clever idea is to bring duplicates or false gifts in the church through his agents, so that somebody else can easily claim that all are fake. This is nothing to do with Baptism.

1 Cori 13: 9 and 10
Some people have interpreted the "that which is perfect" of this verse as being the completed Bible. This has led them to believe that the gifts of the Spirit spoken of here (i.e. prophecy and tongues) have ceased. Although God's Word is perfect (Ps. 19:7), that cannot be the "perfect thing" that is spoken of here.

In verse 12, Paul said when that which is perfect is come, we shall see face to face. This is speaking of seeing the Lord face to face, instead of vaguely as though through a dark glass, as it is now. Some might argue that this is speaking in a symbolic sense instead of literally face to face. But the next comparison in the 12th verse says that then (when that which is perfect is come) we shall know all things even as we are also known. There is no other way to interpret that, except to be describing when we stand before the Lord, after this life. Then we will be face to face and know all things even as also we are known.

Verse 8 also says that at the time prophecies fail and tongues cease, knowledge will vanish away. That has to be talking about the next life, or the new heavens and earth, because one of the signs of the end times will be that knowledge shall increase (Dan. 12:4).

So the "that which is perfect" that Paul is speaking of cannot be the Bible. It has to be speaking of either our glorified body, or Jesus at His second coming. Either way, these verses establish that until that which is perfect is come, tongues and prophecy will remain. These are valid gifts today and operating by Church (not by any denomination) all over the world who believes.

God Bless

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 20 Jun 2006 7:14:08 AM Close
1 John 4:2-3
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

THOSE WHO HAVE SPIRIT FROM GOD WILL NOT POSSES ANTICHRIST'S SPIRIT. WRONG SPIRIT IS THOSE WHO DO NOT ACCEPT JESUS CHRIST.

1 John 3:7-9
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Why did Cain killed his brother? Because he belonged to evil one. His actions were according to the evil.
1John 3:1212Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous.

1John 2:15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Antichrists are not our people. They are not from God.
1 John 2:1919They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Lie (evil) doesnot come from truth.
1John 2:27
20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[a] 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.


Cont.... Part 2......


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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 20 Jun 2006 7:32:16 AM Close
Part 2.............

Holy Spirit lives in you....
1John 2:27
27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

THIS VERSE IS VERY IMPORTANT AND IS IN THE BIBLE.

2 Peter 2:20,21 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

I don't know how it is possible to turn away from God if you are sealed with His spirit. One who knew christ and salvation and donot have the filling of holy spirit may fall from faith. Beginers with a changing mind and spirit will fall from faith. Thats why we need completeness. Complete filling of the holy spirit. That is baptism in Holy spirit. Speaking in tonges is an out ward sign showing that that person is speaking to God.

What are they talking about? Mysteries. That is good for him only. If he prophesise, he is speaking to the fellow men for their stengthening, encoragement and comfort. That is a message for him.

1 corinthians 14:2
2For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.[b] 3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

Since that is speaking misteries is from God,(speaking in tonges) cannot be fake. Because we cannot have a fake talk to God in spirit. Only that person knows.

Cont.... Part 3.....

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 20 Jun 2006 7:49:00 AM Close
Part 3....

2 John 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.

We have to find out which teaching is right and which is wrong. From the time of born-again untill death or his second coming we have to study the word of God. Grow in spirit. Continue in his presence. Word of God is our daily food.

Spirit from God and speaking to God cannot be made fake. Because it is not man made. We can not make God's spirit. Because it is from God.
The best question is:
Who question God? Who doubt God?
That is the work of Satan. That is what Satan did in Eden. Devil tempted Jesus. That was allowed by the spirit of God.
Matthew 4:1
1Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.

But in Eden,it is a different story.
Genesis 3:1
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

Devil is crafty. To speak to Eve, he used the words, "really" and "any".

Let me stop here. God's work is not fake. But satan try to take us away from God. I don't think he make his spirit in us.
1john 2:19
19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
1 John 2:16
16For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world.

Sunila.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 20 Jun 2006 8:44:43 AM Close
Dear 'sajimaniyatt,'

When one speaks in faked tongues and justify it falsely using the practice of the believes in Corinth, then it is easy to identify the faking and the fakers. The Corinthians were far away from the real and that is why Paul reminded them that he prefered to speak in few words in a real tongue than a thousand in their faked tongue.

Thank you for explaining the fakeness of the speaking in tongues, these days by certain groups. It helped to understand this practice better.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 20 Jun 2006 8:29:58 PM Close
Gpk,

Nothing fake happened in Corinth. The problem in Corinth was it was not done in a proper and orderly way.

1 Corinthians 14:39-40
39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40Let all things be done decently and in order.

Sunila.


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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 21 Jun 2006 5:31:01 AM Close
I agreed with the above posting and since Corinth was filled with idolatry and immorality etc which crept into the church. Paul tries to answer their various question and hence he asks them to be orderly.

There are two question arises while reading some of the articles.

1) Is tongue still operative.
(most of the above posting claims it ceases then there is no need of checking whether it is fake or real. What is the biblical verse backing it ceassed).

2) If operative is it orderly?
(Some of the postings above claims that the tongues they here now a days are not understandable etc. In order to answer them first of all they must agree that still tongue is operative but most of what claims are fake).

God bless

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 21 Jun 2006 7:25:45 AM Close
'sunilajoseph@aol.com,'

In a previous thread on which you particiapted, I did show what were the wrong practices at Corinth and how Apostel Paul correted them. Speaking in tongues was one of the wrong practices. They "faked," and Apostle Paul wrote in the 14th chapter that if they say a few words in a language that all undertand, even the unbelievers will fall down and say that the God is among them.

It is strange that there are people who want to spread 'fake' signs (according to 'sajimaniyatt' a fake Rs. 25) as real ones among Christians. You don't see this fallacy, because you are among them.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 22 Jun 2006 7:06:50 AM Close
Gpk,

I understand what you are talking about. Let me try to tell you the way i can.

Romans 14:1 1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.

Romans 14:4 and 10
Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.

Romans 14:12-13 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.

Romans 14:19 19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.

Romans 14:22-23 22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

Cont.... Part 2.........

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 22 Jun 2006 7:26:55 AM Close
Part 2......

1 Corinthians 14:6 6Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?

1 corinthians 14:9 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.

1 corinthians 14:11 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me.

SO 1 corinthians 14:13 13For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says.

1 corinthians 14:16 16If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand[a] say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?

MEANING THERE WAS NONE WHO PROPHESYSE (MEANING THER WAS NO ONE WHO INTERPRET WHAT THEY ARE SPEAKING IN TOUNGES. IF IT IS INTERPRETED THE MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH AND THE WHOLE CONGREGATION WILL UNDERSTAND. THE WORD PROPHESY MEANING TO SPEAK AS A MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN. THAT IS FOR THE FELLOW MEN FOR THEIR STRENGTHEING AND COMFORT. NOT LIKE THE PROPHESY THAT 'JESUS WILL BE BORN OF A VIRGIN'.

SO PAUL SAID 1 corinthians 14:19 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

AND

1 corinthians 14:23 23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand[a] or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW THE MEANING. THERE IS NO PROPHET WHO INTERPRET THE LANGUAGE HE SPOKE IN TOUNGES.

cont.... part 3....

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 22 Jun 2006 7:42:08 AM Close
Part 3....

IF THERE IS AN INTERPRETER,

1 corinthians 14:24 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand[a]comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

THEN THE UNBELIEVR WILL UNDERSTAND AND HE WILL BOW DOWN.
BECAUSE HE WAS AN UNBELIEVER OR SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T HAVE THE GIFT OF HOLY SPIRIT, HE COULDN'T UNDERSTAND. THAT IS WHY HE THOUGHT THEY ARE CRAZY. EVERYBODY WAS SPEAKING IN TOUNGES. AND NO INTERPRETER. AND NO BODY UNDERSTAND. WHEN THEY INTERPRET HE UNDERSTAND AND HEAR ABOUT HIMSLEF (HIS SECRETS) AND MYSTERIES FROM GOD AND COME TO KNOW THAT THERE IS A GOD AND HE BOW DOWN.

I think i expressed my self in my words.

So Paul said 1 corinthians 14:19 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

WE CAN DO THAT. Because 1 corinthians 14:13-15 13For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.

Also he said 1 corinthians 14:18 18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

Sunila.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 22 Jun 2006 7:53:04 AM Close
GPK,

Then whta is this all about?

We need somone who speaks to God and somone who interpret. That is needed for our spiritual growth. And it cannot be (it has not-because we are still here) stopped untill the born-again believers are taken with Him.

Sunila.

S

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 22 Jun 2006 8:11:35 AM Close
'sunilajoseph@aol.com,'

Your last posting on 22 Jun 2006 07:53:04, "GPK,

Then whta is this all about?

We need somone who speaks to God and somone who interpret. That is needed for our spiritual growth. And it cannot be (it has not-because we are still here) stopped untill the born-again believers are taken with Him.

Sunila.

S"

Is this one of your IED (Intermittent Explosive Discharges, it is not 'Improvised Explosive Devices as in Iraq)?

About your three part exposition: It is an exposition taking 1 Corinthians 14 out of its context. It's context starts at chapter 11. The 1 Corinthians is written to the saints at Corinth to correct their errors that they practiced. Speaking in some unknown tongues at their gathering and justifying them as God given gift of tongues was condemned by Apsotle Paul. He asked them to speak a few words in a known tongue to glorify God. In the 21st century, Pentecostals like to practice what is not to be practiced, according to 1 Corinthians 14. I am not saying that you should not do it, the Word of God do say that. Even Hindus do a lot of things, even Madan Thullal. They also speak a lot of things under the influence of their 'spirits.' If you do similar things, please do not ask others who follow the scriptures to imitate you. We imitate Apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 11:1) and obeying the command of the Holy Spirit, we speak a few words for the edification of the saints in a known language at our gatherings.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 22 Jun 2006 8:14:12 AM Close
'sunilajoseph@aol.com,'

Your last posting on 22 Jun 2006 07:53:04,
"GPK,

Then whta is this all about?

We need somone who speaks to God and somone who interpret. That is needed for our spiritual growth. And it cannot be (it has not-because we are still here) stopped untill the born-again believers are taken with Him.

Sunila.

S"

Is this one of your IED (Intermittent Explosive Discharges, it is not 'Improvised Explosive Devices' as in Iraq)?

About your three part exposition: It is an exposition taking 1 Corinthians 14 out of its context. It's context starts at chapter 11. The 1 Corinthians is written to the saints at Corinth to correct their errors that they practiced. Speaking in some unknown tongues at their gathering and justifying them as God given gift of tongues was condemned by Apsotle Paul. He asked them to speak a few words in a known tongue to glorify God. In the 21st century, Pentecostals like to practice what is not to be practiced, according to 1 Corinthians 14. I am not saying that you should not do it, the Word of God do say that. Even Hindus do a lot of things, even Madan Thullal. They also speak a lot of things under the influence of their 'spirits.' If you do similar things, please do not ask others who follow the scriptures to imitate you. We imitate Apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 11:1) and obeying the command of the Holy Spirit, we speak a few words for the edification of the saints in a known language at our gatherings.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : matt10_8   View Profile   Since : 22 Jun 2006 8:38:54 AM Close
I agree with 'sajimaniyatt' and the explanation (16 June) of the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

When we are baptised in Water we are immersed in the water, we then come out we are no longer being baptised we have been baptised.
Likewise when we are baptised in the Holy Spirit, become immersed/saturated/changed by the Holy spirit.
[Baptised is from the Greek "Baptizo" - The New Testament Greek Lexicon reads "The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped' (bapto) into boiling water and then 'baptised' (baptizo) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change."] (Today we dip repeatedly)
(1Cor12v7-11)"Now to each one the manifestations of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines."
If we turn our back on the Gifts of the Spirit we are like the servant who hid the one talent (See Matthew 25 v 14-29). If we use the gifts and are obedient to the Holy Spirit more will be added. Let Holy Spirit immerse you again and again, you will then become like the pickles, You will be changed into what God want's you to be.
>>>Just my understanding and NOT AN ARGUEMENT.

In Jesus
..D


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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 22 Jun 2006 12:09:52 PM Close
Dear brother "matt10-8"

Your rather strange analogy is not very appropriate. A pickled vegetable has no life and is preserved in its lifeless state by artificial means. It is impregnated with a foreign substance which alters its flavour and removes its natural goodness.

Better to be like a branch of the "true vine" with a constant supply of life giving nourishment coming from the divine source.

My observation is that the obsession that many have, with speaking in tongues, distracts them from occupation with the Lord Jesus Christ, and personal communion with Him, in an attempt to draw attention to themselves. If we examine the scripture carefully it is clear that the need to speak in tongues which existed in the days of the early church no longer exists.

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 22 Jun 2006 7:09:55 PM Close
Gpk,

You don't know the power of holy spirit. That is what we get in holy spirit baptism.

'Mandon thullal' is like 'ottam thullal'. That has no spirit. It is a show bussiness or entertainment. You see 'bhootham erackel' with hindus. That has no spirit either. It is just shouting and beating and jumping up and down. I saw that in movies. They will be tired at the end. They do that for money. Their prophecy is planned. Their is no spirit. If you want to talk about magic. It is also tricks.

Baptism in holy spirit is receiving power from heaven. If somebody doing that ministry for business and fame it won't last long. It depends on what we build. What is the base.

Born-again spirit is just believe in the word of God. It is by faith. When you confessed Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour, your spirit instantly changed. In your spirit you are new and complete. God has already given you everything you need. The rest of your christian life is not learning how to get from Him but rather discovering how to release what He has already placed within.

I have to say God is my provider. He is faithul. If you seek, you will find. In the thread spirit, mind and body, i talked about a sharon pastor who taught me about it by drawing diagrams. I fond a book showing the same diagram and speach. Book is written by Andrew Wommack. Name of the book: Spirit, Soul and Body. I got it from www.awmi.net. I started reading that book. If you want to read it, you will get to know how this subject 'salvation and baptism in holy spirit' works in us.

Sunila.

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Reply by : matt10_8   View Profile   Since : 23 Jun 2006 3:57:33 AM Close
Dear Brother John.

I agree with you that we need the "a constant supply of life giving nourishment coming from the divine source". The analogy is more of an extract from a lexicon explaining the meaning and background of a specific word. IE. Baptism. It is the concept of what it is. I understand this as the process of becoming over time more christlike.

Could anybody tell me when exactly do we get filled with the Holy Spirit? Is it 1>at the point of salvation ie. When we accept that we are sinners and ask Jesus into our lives. Or 2>is it at the moment of Baptism in water? If it's not at the point of baptism why then do we have to be baptised in water if we are already justified AND filled with the Holy Spirit?
or is it 3> Whenever the Holy Spirit has been asked to fill us after the laying on of hands?

Just wondering. The discussion above has prompted some questioning to gain further understanding of this deep topic.

In Love,
David

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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 23 Jun 2006 4:20:45 AM Close
Dear brother David,

We receive the Holy Spirit when we receive Christ as our saviour. The word of God is clear and specific, He does not give His Spirit by measure. If our enjoyment or experience of the Holy Spirit's power is limited it is because of our state rather than any qualification in the extent or quality of the divine Gift.

Baptism is an outward acknowledgement of inward grace. It is a public testimony to a change that has taken place inwardly by accepting Christ as Saviour and Lord, and having thereby received the gift of the Holy Spirit of God. Baptism does not change a person. It is a declaration that the person has been changed by being born again by the grace of God. That declaration is that the baptised person accepts death and resurrection with Christ as God's plan of spiritual rebirth.

As far as the expression "being filled with the Spirit" is concerned, may I suggest that you go to the moderated forum and click on the thread "Filled with the Spirit". I look forward to your conclusion after reading this.

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 23 Jun 2006 6:37:32 AM Close
Dear brethren,

If I may I would like to address Sunila Joseph's last contribution to this thread. There is a certain portion of it that is entirely incomprehensible to me since I do not understand the linguistic quotations she uses in her opening statements. I do not state this as a criticism, merely as a fact. Her references to Hindu religious practises are also beyond my knowledge, and are of no interest.

However when she states that George P. Koshy does not know the power of the Holy Spirit I feel that she is going beyond knowledge of the truth and into the realms of supposition, and at the same time judging a fellow believer without cause. I cannot say anything about the anonymous "sharon pastor" or his diagrams, except to comment that it seems a doubtful method of learning the deep things of God. It is her reference to Andrew Womack which I found interesting.

It would not be right for me to critcise Mr Womack, since it is to his own master he stands or falls. It is right however to examine his doctrine, and so I visited his website. The initial "statement of faith" seems in accordance with scripture generally, but when I went into the information about his "Charis Bible College" I found a statement with which I could not agree.

In the "Doctrinal Statement", under the heading of "Holy Spirit" we read the following:

We believe in the baptism with the Holy Spirit, expressed with speaking in tongues according to Acts 1:8; 2:4; 9:17; 10:44-46; 11:15-16; 19:6. We believe this experience is distinct from, and subsequent to,the new birth, and can be received by faith (Gal.3:2)

What Mr Womack is doing here is to take the experiences of believers in the early days of the christian church, where circumstances and needs were very different from today and transfer them literally to present day ministry. He is also, by inference, investing himself and his colleagues with Apostolic power and authority, by including references to the Holy Spirit being received by the laying on of hands.

[continued]

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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 23 Jun 2006 6:50:17 AM Close
[Continued]

The passage which he cites as his authority [Gal.3:2] refers to receiving the Holy Spirit by accepting Christ's atonement in faith. By wrongly putting an interpretation on this scripture which is clearly not intended, he thereby undermines his own theory.

Now I would ask you to look at Mark 16:17-18. The signs of casting out demons, speaking in tongues, taking up serpents, and immunity to poison are all linked together, along with laying on of hands to heal the sick. Those therefore who profess to evince the manifestation of one of these signs must be able to show all. Consider the implications and ask if the speakers in tongues can, for instance swallow a poisonous draught or "take up a serpent".

The flesh responds to excitement and novelty, the Spirit occupies us with excellence and supremacy of another Man in another world.

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 Jun 2006 7:33:46 AM Close
'sunilajoseph@aol.com,'

On 22 Jun 2006 07:26:55 ‘sunilajoseph@aol.com’ wrote:

“THE WORD PROPHESY MEANING TO SPEAK AS A MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN. THAT IS FOR THE FELLOW MEN FOR THEIR STRENGTHEIN AND COMFORT. NOT LIKE THE PROPHESY THAT JESUS WILL BE BORN OF A VIRGIN.”

Where did you get this explanation? Your explanation is in contradiction to what the Word of God tells us, especially in the New Testament. May be this is a new revelation that was given to you. Any one, especially by one who wants to establish a strange teaching, should not contradict what is revealed in the Word of God by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. That ‘spirit’ of the new revelation needs to be questioned. In Galatians 3:19, 20; 1 Timothy 2:5; and Hebrews 8:6; 9:15; 12:24 the Holy Spirit told us that there is only one Mediator between God and Man, the Man Christ Jesus. Now you say that there are new mediators between God and men. Who are these men? Did they appoint themselves to be equal with the Lord Jesus Christ? Did a group of people appointed them in that capacity by the method of identifying with him/her. This method of identification is by laying their hands on their head. This is an old custom. A sinner was demanded in the law to lay his hand on the sacrificial animal to identify with it in its death. May be some of them have prefixed their names with “Pr.” too? In another thread you explained that this “Pr.” stands for ‘Priest’ or ‘Pastor.’ This new office of the mediators between God and men are very close to the office of the Roman Catholic priests. Now you say that many Pentecostals have the capacity to be mediators between God and men. The Pentecostals are drawing closer and closer towards their Roman Catholic Charismatic cohorts. Is this scriptural?

You are explaining the scriptures like an unbeliever and it is without any fear or respect to the Word of God. Why do you think there are a series of mediators between God and men?

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 Jun 2006 7:43:16 AM Close
'sunilajoseph@aol.com,'

On 22 Jun 2006 19:09:55 you wrote, "'Mandon Thullal' is like 'ottam thullal'. That has no spirit. It is a show bussiness or entertainment."

'Ottam Thullal' is an acting out of the Hindu epics for entertainment. 'Madan Thullal' is an annual celeberation that includes the manifestation of an evil spirit, Madan, on his priest (PUJARI). In that manifestation the Pujari will not eat anything for three days but will be prophesying and doing things that ordinary people may not be able to do. He will even go to the Hindu cremation place and spend time there. The ending of this 'Madan Thullal' is by bathing in boiling water using certain tools made of cocunut tree products.

I wrote this for your information. I did witness these things, when I was young, in India.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : matt10_8   View Profile   Since : 23 Jun 2006 9:38:33 AM Close
Brothers and Sisters

"Did they appoint themselves to be equal with the Lord Jesus Christ?". Quote from Bro. George

I believe that Friends are equals. A friend cannot be higher or lower than his friends.
In John 15v14-15 "You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you."

Whilst we must obey Jesus and do what he commands us we have been declaired His friends by Him.

From my personal experience I share my life experiences with my friends. Things that I would not share with a stranger. Gen 1v5 "When God created human beings, he made them in the likeness of God." Therefore if I have been made in God's image, then surely I have similar characteristics as well?

1Cor2v9-16 > 'However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived— these things God has prepared for those who love him" for God has revealed them to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except that person's own spirit within? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for, "Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.'

>>>Cont>>>

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Reply by : matt10_8   View Profile   Since : 23 Jun 2006 9:38:39 AM Close
>>>Cont>>>
In order for this to occur we must have the Holy Spirit resident within us. If we have the Holy Spirit within us are we not then in a position of "Power" through the same spirit. We all know that God is the Same, Yesterday, today and forever.(Hebrews 13:8)

If these scriptures are true (they are in the bible and therefore I will take it as given that they are, then why is there a difference between what was experienced 2000 years ago and today?

We all know that Jesus knew the will of the Father. We all know that the Bible is the Word of God. Therefore, We know that this is true.
(I therefore deduce) Jesus must have had knowledge that what he was saying was going to be recorded by the disciples and become part of the Bible. - With this in mind the original texts of the bible had Past tense, Present Tense and Present Continuose Tense(or Present Perfect), would it be wrong therefore to say that what was "said" and what was recorded within the Holy Word of God (our Bible) is only for that time and not for the present perfect time (ie. now)?
(My Understanding - Not for arguements)
This is what I believe Baptism in the Holy Spirit to be. - Being immersed in Him. The fact that there are or there are not tongues involved becomes imaterial. This debate about tonuges is so far from the point. Are we spirit filled? IF yes then we have been baptised in the Holy Spirit. We should know deep within our souls when the spirit speaks to us whether we are immersed in the Holy Spirit - When the Spirit speaks to us we should also be prepared to step out in faith and action the power that is within us.
[(Acts 1v8 "You will receive Power when the holy spirit comes upon you".) Power = Dunamis This is the same power that raise Jesus from the Dead.]

Just my interpretation and understanding at this stage, I really feel that we should not get hung up on "Tongues" and just let the Holy Spirit work in and through us.

Blessings.
...David

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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 23 Jun 2006 12:09:08 PM Close
Dear brother David [Matt10_8],

You asked three questions in your last post which I sought to answer. You have not acknowledged this or commented upon the answers that I gave. I asked you to read the thread on the moderated forum and specifically comment on it but you appear to have ignored my request. It is not very easy to engage in a profitable discussion when one party does not address the matter in a logical and coherent way. Your last post is vague and lacks any definition as to your understanding of the scriptural truth of the subject.

I am certainly not "hung up on tongues". Your opening analogy about friends being equals does not fit our relationship with Jesus. He is our friend. He is also our God, our Lord, our Master, our Redeemer, our Creator and our Saviour. Does this make us His equals? I sincerely trust that you are not suggesting this as it would be utterly irreverant. I fear, that like your vegetables, you have got yourself into a bit of a pickle!

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 23 Jun 2006 2:11:03 PM Close
Dear All,

It seems that nobody specifically answered my posting on 21 Jun, which I quoting below with some addition.

There are two question arises while reading some of the articles.

1) Is tongue still operative?
(most of the above posting claims it ceases then there is no need of checking whether it is fake or real. What is the biblical verse backing it ceassed?).

2) If operative, is it orderly?
(Some of the postings above claims that the tongues they hear now a days are not understandable etc,. In order to answer them first of all they must agree that still tongue is operative but most of what claims are fake).

God bless

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 23 Jun 2006 8:27:21 PM Close
John Miller,

Quote:We believe this experience is distinct from, and subsequent to,the new birth, and can be received by faith (Gal.3:2)

I think Andrew Wommack is right at his point.i believe in the verse John 16:23-24 ( I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.)

Matthew 21:22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

You must have faith in God that you will receive it. If you do not have holy spirit, seek in prayer, you will get it.

If you are sick pray in faith that you will be healed. James 5:14-16.

Laying hands is to pray for that person. There is nothing special in those hands. They are blessing him and praying in faith that he will receive it.

Sunila.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 23 Jun 2006 8:50:14 PM Close
GPK,

MEDIATE = to settle as an intermediary between parties;reconcile; occupy an intermediate place or position..... That is Jesus.. ...as a high priest.

Mediate = to effect a result or convey a message, gift etc by or as by an intermediary......... That is prophet (one who interpret for the comfort and strengthening of the fellow men). That prophet is the interpreter.

There were other prophets like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel etc...


Sunila.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 23 Jun 2006 9:01:49 PM Close
GPK,

You may be talking about (madan thullal) as a satanic worship or practice. That may be true. I don't know. I never heard of that kind in India. I heard that in usa satanic worshippers are plenty.

There is a God. As we know there is Devil or Satan also. So ofcourse there will be followers of Satan.

But holy spirit which is one of the trinity as we all born again people believe cannot be compared to mandon thullal. If you are a true believer of Jesus Christ you won't be able to say that. Believe it. That is the spirit of God. When we get power of holy spirit we make the devil run. Demon come out of possesed people. That is not like bhootham erackel. That victim may be a mental person after all these harrasement and beating. They will not be healed. Only prayer in faith in Jesus Christ can heal them. It is the power of the word of God.

Sunila.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 23 Jun 2006 9:12:41 PM Close
Sajimaniathu,

I answer to your questions:

1) Is tongue still operative?----------- I believe
Speaking in tongue is still operative.


2)If operative, is it orderly?...... I see it orderly.

Sunila.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 23 Jun 2006 9:21:25 PM Close
Matt10_8,

Quote:Could anybody tell me when exactly do we get filled with the Holy Spirit? Is it 1>at the point of salvation ie. When we accept that we are sinners and ask Jesus into our lives. Or 2>is it at the moment of Baptism in water? If it's not at the point of baptism why then do we have to be baptised in water if we are already justified AND filled with the Holy Spirit?
or is it 3> Whenever the Holy Spirit has been asked to fill us after the laying on of hands?

My answer is experiencing Salvation and baptism in holy spirit is different in each person. I know mine and you know yours. Your way is your way and my way is my way. Don't look around. Look at yourself and God. See how it is and what it is.
Only you can tell how yours is, not me. I can tell how i believed and saved. You don't know me. Even if i say i believe it for somebody elses sake, it may not be true. I may not be born again. That person do not have the gift of holy spirit.

Sunila.

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Reply by : Varghese   View Profile   Since : 23 Jun 2006 10:32:09 PM Close
“If you do not have holy spirit, seek in prayer, you will get it”
sunilajoseph@aol.com 23 Jun 2006 20:27:21

Why would a believer seek to get the Holy Spirit when one already received the Holy Spirit upon Salvation?

Or if a non-believer, the first step is to repent & get saved!

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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 24 Jun 2006 3:06:28 AM Close
Dear readers,

The simplicity of Brother Varghese' contribution exposes the complicated and false arguments of Sunila Joseph. I really feel that this obsession with "speaking in tongues" which are unintelligible to others, and "powers of healing", most of which are demonstrably false, is a tool in the hands of the enemy to divert the believers' attention from occupation with the Lord Jesus Christ.

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 24 Jun 2006 5:03:04 AM Close
Dear sajimaniyatt,

This is in reference to your post on 23 Jun 2006 2:11:03 PM. You pose two questions, whether tongues are operative today, if yes are they being practiced orderly.

1. Tongues have ceased when God set aside Israel as a nation (Rom 11:25). Because tongues are a SIGN for UNBELIEVING Israel. We know "the JEWS require a SIGN" (1 Cor 1:22). When God set them aside as a nation (after Acts 28), then the need for tongues is no longer there.

2. Today's tongues are being practised in a DISORDERLY manner, when compared to the instructions given by Paul to Corinthians when tongues were still operative.

Have you ever wondered why did the Lord use tongues? The first mention of the subject of tongues is not in the New Testament. It goes back to Old Testament. I request you (and others who sincerely desire to know about this) to study Isa 28:11-13 together with 1 Cor 14:21-22. Paul knew the connection between Isa 28 and tongues, and therefore quoted Isa 28 portion in 1 Cor 14.

Isaiah 28:11-12, "For with stammering lips and ANOTHER TONGUE will he speak to this people ... yet they would not hear."

So tongues were a SIGN to the UNBELIEVING Israel (1 Cor 14:22). When the sign is given, they will be blessed if they accept the message, and will stumble (Isa 28:13) if they reject.

Tongues were spoken in the NT in Acts 2:4, Acts 10:46 and Acts 19:6. In these three places, God spoke to the JEWS in ANOTHER tongue in a miraculous way, as a SIGN for the UNBELIEVING Jewish audience. In Acts 2, the tongues were spoken to unbelieving Jews, who later believed, but some mocked. In Acts 10, there were some believing Jews who DID NOT BELIEVE that God will pour out the gift of the Holy Ghost upon Gentiles ALSO (Acts 10:44-45). In Acts 19, tongues were spoken for the sake of Jews, as Jews were present there along with Gentiles (Acts 19:8-10).

The Lord set aside Israel gradually in Acts 13:46, Acts 18:6 and FINALLY in Acts 28:28. And since then tongues have CEASED.

Moses LemuelRaj

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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 24 Jun 2006 5:06:56 AM Close
Dear Readers,

Having read through Sunila Joseph's contributions again, may I point out that in her defence of Andrew Wommack's stated doctrinal beliefs she is in denial of the truth of God's Word. Paul says in Ephesians 1:13-14,"In whom [that is in Christ] also after ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, who is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased pssession, unto the praise of His glory."

This scripture tells us clearly that the each believer is "sealed" with the Holy Spirit when they receive Christ as Saviour. In doing so they become Children of God, according to John 1:13. Furthermore, we find in Romans 8:14-17 that we are Sons of God and Children of God. What is the power for the enjoyment and experience of this amazing truth? It is, according to this passage of the Word, that we are led by the Spirit of God. We are told that we "have received the Spirit of adoption whereby we cry Abba Father." Then we are told that we are actually "heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ" linking on with and explaining the verses I have quoted from Ephesians.

These scriptures underline and confirm Galatians 3:2 which tells us that we "received the Spirit by hearing of faith". When the needy sinner opens his heart to receive Christ, ALL God's blessings in Christ as well as the gift of the indwelling Spirit of God are his, without qualification. The appreciation and enjoyment of these blessings will undoubtedly become richer and fuller in the believer's walk with God, but ALL the blessings of His love are the portion of the newest and simplest believer in Jesus. To suggest that we have to wait for the gift of God's Spirit is to clearly infer that we have to contribute in some way to this experience by our own efforts. Everything that we have in the blessings and purpose of God is "in Christ".

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 24 Jun 2006 7:57:36 PM Close
Quote from J. Miller:"received the Spirit by hearing of faith".

What is hearing faith? That means hearing word of God. We receive the word of God in our heart. After being born again, the rest of your Christian life consists of renewing and releasing.

I menat releasing meaning communicating with God. (philemon 1:6). Communicate = announce, disclose, reveal, make known, release, transfer etc.

That is what we do in prayer and speaking in tounges and interpreting. We pray with spirit and intelligence.

1 corinthians 14:14-15 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

James 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

As you renew your mind and believe God's Word, your soul will agree with what is already transpired in your spirit. When your soul comes intoalignment with what it sees in God's spiritual mirror, what is already in your spirit releases in to your soul and body. If your spirit and soul agree, you experience the life of God.

It is take the word and trust in it. You must look in God's mirror and trust the spiritual reality you see.

What is that spiritual reality? Salavtion, Power of holy spirit, Healing through the word of God, peace, prosperity, victory over evil spirit, and joy.

Your body does not control anything. It just goes with the flow of what it sees, tastes, hears, smells, and feels unless otherwise influenced by soul. When your soul agrees with your spirit, the life of God in you will manifest itself in your physical body. You will experience healing, deliverance, anointing, victory, power, joy, prosperity and there is a long list.

cont... part2....

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 24 Jun 2006 8:16:25 PM Close
part 2.....

If your soul doesn't allow you to renew your mind to God's word, the eternal reality in your spirit won't be able to impact the "temporal" reality of your physical relam. All that ressurection life and power just stays locked up inside untill you look into the spiritual mirror long enough to see the real you and release it.

Meaning when you see yourself in the word of God, you begin to change and renew your mind.

In order for your faith to work, you must recognize, believe and aknowledge the good things in you in Christ.

(My wordings from the book: spirit, soul and body).

--------------------------------------------

Varghese,

I pray for my unsaved relatives. Many evangelists pray for unsaved souls. Our conventions in Kerala starts with a prayer for the word of God to work in the hearts and minds of unsaved souls.
That is how the holy spirit work on individuals. We invite the presence of holy spirit to come to the meeting by prayer. We remember the verse that Jesus promised where two or three are gathered His presence (holy spirit) will be there. That is how we invite Him in our life and meetings. You
know the person Jesus Christ is in heaven. Holy spirit is here for Him.

Sunila.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 24 Jun 2006 8:23:09 PM Close
error:We remember the verse that Jesus promised where two or three are gathered His presence (holy spirit) will be there.

Correction:We remember the verse that Jesus promised where two or three are gathered IN JESUS NAME, His presence (holy spirit) will be there.


Sunila.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 24 Jun 2006 9:26:06 PM Close
we have to pray for our spiritual (inner) eyes to be opened.
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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 24 Jun 2006 9:31:57 PM Close
moses,

Is there any bible verse:? "And since then tongues have CEASED." What is the reference in the bible for that sentence?

sunila.

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 25 Jun 2006 5:59:10 AM Close
QUOTE:
".........tongues were spoken for the sake of Jews, as Jews were present there along with Gentiles (Acts 19:8-10)".
"The Lord set aside Israel gradually in Acts 13:46, Acts 18:6 and FINALLY in Acts 28:28. And since then tongues have CEASED."

UNQUOTE:
If this is the way we explain the word of God, someone may even conclude that Jesus came only for JEWS AND HIS LOST SHEEPS.

I couldn't find out any verse in the bible as claimed above that TONGUES HAVE CEASED.

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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 25 Jun 2006 10:01:47 AM Close
Sunila Joseph,

In your customary manner you have completely avoided reading or answering the specfic scriptural truths that I stated in my last post. You attempt to teach without any intelligent and thoughtful use of God's Word. This question may seem harsh, but are there no pentecostal doctrine forums where your beliefs would not be more acceptable? I would not, of course try to say that you should not contribute here, but suggest that if you do, such contributions should be thoughtfully and carefully based on scriptural authority, not on the experiences that you or others claim to have had.

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 25 Jun 2006 11:37:22 AM Close
John Miller,

Your question was: What is the power for the enjoyment and experience of this amazing truth?

You already have the answer.

That is the Spirit of God. God sent forth the Spirit of His son into your heart crying, "Abba, Father" (Gal 4:6, Rom 8:9) That is the spirit of adoption, the spirit who makes us sons and by his power we cry out "Abba, Father".

Your spirit and His spirit merged and became one to create a new person. That is why God's mirror reflects you as righteous, holy and pure.

When a Christian walks like an unbeliver, they get the same result-death. (Physical death and sickness-at the same time they are righteous in born-again spirit).Believers who do not understand and apply the knowledge of God in their lives gravitate toward what you can see, taste, hear, smell and feel. This darkens your understanding. Without spiritual knowledge and understanding, your mind cannot be renewed, and the life of God in your spirit cannot be released. If you donot take the word of God and trust in it, that is ignoring the word of God (eph 4:18). The life of God is still there, but they are alienated from it due to ignorence of spiritual truth.

Many people talk about Him (Jesus), but not every believer experience Him. They must experience God more fully, beyond just head knowledge of Him.

Sunila.

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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 25 Jun 2006 12:02:59 PM Close
Dear Sunila Joseph,

I have discovered a website that would suit your beliefs. Many who are of the same mind as yourself contribute to it. It is called carm.org and I am sure that you would enjoy the talk and discussions that go on there.

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 25 Jun 2006 7:15:24 PM Close
J. Miller,

Do you know whom I have? The one and only God in whom YOU believe. He is the creator of this universe. He is so great and He is the most decent and orderly person than any one of you. Only He accept me and He accepted me. That is all I want.

Your sister in Him,

Sunila.

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 26 Jun 2006 1:01:27 AM Close
Dear sajimaniyatt,

Quote: "If this is the way we explain the word of God, someone may even conclude that Jesus came only for JEWS AND HIS LOST SHEEPS."

Mat 15:24, "But he answered and said, I am NOT sent BUT unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." You cannot escape these plain words from the Lord Himself. He is so clear. He never ministered to Gentiles while He was on this earth, expect in an occasional as this, where the faith of the woman surpassed the dispensational boundaries. She acknowledged her "dog" status and begged for crumbs that would fall from the table. Please read Mat 15:21-28. Also He instructed His disciples not to go to Gentiles, Mat 10:5-6.

But after His resurrection, the Lord told His disciples to go to "ALL nations" (Luke 24:47; Mat 28:19) and "every creature" (Mark 16:15), BEGINNING AT JERUSALEM. But the disciples did not quite understand that Gentiles are included in that "ALL nations" clause, because, Peter learned it only in Acts 10:28,44 (see Acts 11:15-16). There were many Jews scattered in all nations that time (John 7:35). Until Acts 10, there were no Gentiles saved in the strictest sense. Even the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 was a proselyte and had come to worship in Jerusalem.

The Lord made a NATIONAL offer to Israel in Acts capters 2-7. The final message in their head quarters Jerusalem was given thru Stephen. But they rejected the Lord and stoned Stephen. Paul was present there, Acts 7:58. After this rejection, the Lord saved SAMARITANS and an Ethiopian proselyte in Acts 8.

cont'd..

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 26 Jun 2006 1:02:10 AM Close
cont'd...


But before any Gentile was saved in Acts 10, the Lord saved Paul in Acts 9, and said about him, "he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the GENTILES, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15). This is the first CLEAR communication from the Lord about preaching the Lord Jesus Christ among the GENTILES. So Paul was made the "apostle of the Gentiles" (Rom 11:13). Paul said, "Jesus Christ was a minister of the CIRCUMCISION for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy." But about himself he said, "the grace that is given to me of God, That I should be the MINISTER OF JESUS CHRIST TO THE GENTILES" (Rom 15:8-9, 15-16).

Therefore, the "CASTING AWAY" of Israel became the "RECONCILING OF THE WORLD" (Rom 11:15). And now Paul could say, "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus CAME into the world TO SAVE SINNERS; of whom I am chief." (1 Timothy 1:15). Before John wrote John 3:16, He had to write, "He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" (John 1:11-12).

Moses LemuelRaj

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 26 Jun 2006 2:19:29 AM Close
Sunila,

Quote: "Is there any bible verse:? "And since then tongues have CEASED." What is the reference in the bible for that sentence?"

There are Bible verses which say the following things:

1. Tonuges SHALL cease (1 Cor 13:8).
2. Jews require a SIGN (1 Cor 1:22).
3. Tongues are given for a SIGN (1 Cor 14:22) for UNBELIEVING ISRAEL (1 Cor 14:21; Isa 28:11-12).
4. Israel is now "CAST AWAY" until the rapture (Rom 11:15,25).
5. Now there is neither Jew nor Greek (Rom 10:12; Gal 3:28; Col 3:11).
6. So if the very people for which the SIGN was intended are set aside, why do you think tongues will be there around still?
7. Therefore TONGUES HAVE CEASED.

So you have here a SCRIPTURAL PROOF, that tongues have CEASED.

Pentecostals and Charismatics have no clue about this connection between tongues and Israel, even though Paul mentioned it in 1 Cor 14:21-22. They simply ignored to check its cross-reference in Isa 28:11-12.

We can reply to the tongues movement of today, and can say, "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God." Your tongues ain't the power of God. Beware, it is of the DEVIL most of the times.

God bless,

Moses LemuelRaj

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 26 Jun 2006 6:24:28 AM Close
Moses,

I think you are assuming that toungues have ceased based on that translation.

Complete Jewish Bible: Romans 11:15
For if their casting Yeshua aside means reconciliation for the world, what will their accepting him mean? It will be life from the dead.

I checked KJV and malayalam bible. If you read Chaper 11:1-12 very carefully , you will know that the verse 11:15 in Complete Jewish Bible is meaningfull.

Romans 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Romans 11:4 I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.


Let me tell something that i hide from you. Three years back my husband was giving a class for the candidates who were to be baptised. I was with them listening. We went through many references. All children had different versions of bible. One basic important verse related to salvation and water baptism is missing in KJV. I couldn't stand seeing that. With out writting down (looking again) the verse i closed the bible. We were talking about it, writting a note to the publisher about the mistake. All other versions had that verse.

So if you know Greek or Hebrew, check those originals. You will find.

All other verses you have given me in the above post has different thoughts with me.

Sunila.

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 26 Jun 2006 7:33:41 AM Close
Sunila,

Here are TWO versions of Greek for Rom 11:15, and NONE of them have the word IESOUS in them.

Textus Receptus (1894 Scrivener's): "ei gar h apobolh autwn katallagh kosmou tiV h proslhqiV ei mh zwh ek nekrwn."

Westcott-Hort (1881): "ei gar h apobolh autwn katallagh kosmou tiV h proslhmqiV ei mh zwh ek nekrwn."

Where did the "Jewish" bible get Yeshua there in that verse? And which verse about baptism is missing in the KJV? Have you checked Acts 8:37? It is about baptism, it is missing in most other versions, but not in KJV.

BTW, you argument on versions cannot rule out the fact that God has set aside Israel. "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rom 11:25).

God has set aside Israel nationally, though some Jews here and there are still getting saved (remnant). But they are a part of the church. They have no special previleges in the church as Jews, for in the church, according to Paul's doctrine, there is neither Jew nor Greek.

Since tongues are given to unbelieving Israel as a SIGN, they have ceased when God has set them aside. The setting aside of Israel has come about gradually, and you can notice it in Acts 13:46, Acts 18:6 and FINALLY in Acts 28:28.

So there are NO TONGUES after Acts 28:28 period.

Moses


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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 26 Jun 2006 8:10:17 AM Close
'matt10_8,'

On 23 Jun 2006 09:38:33 you quoted me as, "'Did they appoint themselves to be equal with the Lord Jesus Christ?'. Quote from Bro. George"

Could you provide the Forum, Thread, Date, and Time of my posting from which you are quoting this? I want to know what I exactly wrote from its context.

This is a request I place for a meaningful dialog, expecially in the light of your thread, "Tollerance and Patience," in the General Forum on 22 Jun 2006. I have placed a reply to you on that thread.

I will be gald to answer your questions on "Filling of the Holy Spirit" after you provide the information I asked for.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 26 Jun 2006 6:20:33 PM Close
Moses,

About tounges, i have to say "i don't know". Because i don't want to argu.

KJV mistake: There is one verse missing from the book. We double checked it on that day. It is in the malayalam bible. We comforted ourselves saying that it is a printing mistake. I didn't note it down. So i don't remember which verse it is.

Did you read Romans 11:1-12. What did you understand with 11:15?

I checked in internet, comparing different versions and the mistakes in them. I couldn't find that missing verse in KJV records.

So i have to say i don't know. Because i don't have proof with me.

Sunila.

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 27 Jun 2006 12:31:42 AM Close
Dear Sunila,

Quote: "Did you read Romans 11:1-12. What did you understand with 11:15?"

I understand from Romans 11, that God did not cast away His people which He FOREKNEW. The remnant of Jews are getting saved even today, and thus are becoming a part of the church. But in the church, there is no difference of Jew and Gentile.

But Israel nationally is BLINDED (Rom 11:7-8; 25), they have "FALLEN" but not for ever (Rom 11:11-12), they are "cast away" to be "received again" in the future (Rom 11:15), they are as olive branches "broken off" (Rom 11:17-24), to be "graffed in" again.

What is your point? Tell me whether God is dealing now with Israel NATIONALLY? Not until the rapture.

Quote: "About tounges, i have to say "i don't know". Because i don't want to argu."

If you don't know, when are you then speaking in tongues? You want to speak in tongues but you don't want to agree they have ceased. When Scriptures are quoted you say you don't want to argue. Should we not hereby conclude that you are wanting to speak in tongues IRRESPECTIVE of what the Scripture says about it? Don't you have regard for Scriptures?

Tongues are given for a sign for unbelieving Israel. When God has set aside Israel, why are you then speaking in tongues? Did not Paul say they will cease?

Moses LemuelRaj


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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 27 Jun 2006 8:57:21 AM Close
'sunilajoseph@aol.com, Part-1

Your, ‘sunilajoseph@aol.com,’ posting on 23 Jun 2006 20:27:21 shows that you do not have the Holy Spirit as we learn from the Word of God. Let me explain: You wrote, “If you do not have holy spirit, seek in prayer, you will get it.” Where do you read this in the Bible? I am not asking what Mr. Womack wrote. If you don’t have the Holy Spirit, then you are not a believer, a child of God. Only a child of God can pray in the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If you don’t have the Holy Spirit, then you are an orphan. If you are an orphan, then you are without the Father. If you are without the Father, you are not a member of His family to call Him, “Abba, Father.” You can call God, “Abba Father” only through or by having the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of adoption. These truth we learn from John 14, Romans 8:14, 15, 13, and 9:4. Since you – ‘sunilajoseph@aol.com,’ don’t know these truths, I have to assume that you are not one of the children. You are an orphan. Orphans do dance as part of their begging. Children ask, guided by the Spirit – sent by the Son, of the Father. None need to dance to please the Father. He gave us the Holy Spirit when He made us His children, that are why we are told that we are born of the Spirit, by the finished work of His Son, our Savior and Lord.

About laying of hands, the Word of God clearly teach us that when one lays his hand on another’s head, then it is an act of identification and not of imparting anything.

(To be cont. Part-2)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 27 Jun 2006 8:59:08 AM Close
'sunilajoseph@aol.com' Part-2,

On 23 Jun 2006 20:50:14 you, ‘sunilajoseph@aol.com,’ wrote, “… That prophet is the interpreter….There were other prophets like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel etc…” This is in answer to my objection about Pentecostal pastors were being called “Mediators” between God and man by you. In your reply, you are talking about “interpreters.” That is not an answer to my inquiry. Why don’t you answer my question that is directly connected with your previous postings that pastors are mediators? In my inquiry, I pointed out that Roman Catholics also teach the same idea about their priests as mediators between God and man. In the Word of God, in 1 Timothy 2 we read that Christ is the only mediator between God and man. That is the office of the Man Christ Jesus. In the 21st century, others take up that office of Jesus Christ by force, as in an act of robbery, and claim that it is a new revelation given to them by speaking in unknown tongues. (I think this is one of the Womackian theories.) :Where did you get this teaching that a man is at equality with the Jesus Christ, in His office? Show from the scriptures. Your IED (Intermittent Explosive Discharges, similar to the IED in Iraq used by insurgents against the people.) is completely baseless and has no support of the scriptures that prophets were mediators between God and men. I ask you to provide support for your teaching on this Forum from the Word of God and not from Mr. Womack. (I request that the Administers of this Forum should take note of this teaching.)

In the first paragraph, you, ‘sunilajoseph@aol.com,’ admitted that you did not know the difference between ‘Madan Thullal’ and “Ottam Thullal.’ But, in an earlier posting you said that they are very similar to the acting of Hindus. Are you writing without knowing what you write? Another IED, I suppose.

(To be cont. Part-3)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 27 Jun 2006 9:01:20 AM Close
'sunilajoseph@aol.com' Part-3,

The last paragraph of that posting you compared ‘dancing before God,’ as you do, to “Madan Thullal.” You wrote, “If you are a true believer of Jesus Christ you won’t be able to say that. Believe it. That is spirit of God.” I do not make dancing before God a requirement in my worship, because it is not in the scriptures. You, ‘sunilajoseph@aol.com,’ do make it a requirement. So is in Madan Thullal. Adding to the Word of God is a sign of the influence of Satan, the Adversary. It is in that Adversary’s spirit that people add to the Word of God, with the intent to lead the unsuspected and unbelieving away from the truth.

On the same paragraph you, ‘sunilajoseph@aol.com,’ wrote about the method of casting out demons by Pentecostals as, “The victim may be mental person after all these harrasement and beating. They will not be healed…” You admit that those poor mentally ill people are harassed and beaten by Pentecostals. Could you, ‘sunilajoseph@aol.com,’ provide scriptural references where the Lord Jesus Christ or any of His apostles harass or beat any demon possessed that were brought to them? If your people harass and beat the poor people to cast out demons, the same way Hindu exorcists perform that function. Please do not claim that it is done in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ? Th8is act is very similar to Madan Thullal and dancing before gods in worship, whom are you imitating? You and your people are not following the Lord Jesus Christ or the Apostle as demanded in 1 Corinthians 11:1. But do perform exorcism as done by the sons of Sceva and we read about their predicament in Acts 19:14-17. (By the way, I also know that the late Dr. V.K. Alexander – a psychiatrist and one who denied all miracles of our Lord, who was the head of the department of Psychology at Union Christian College in Kerala – beating at least one of his patients to cure her. This happened in 1964.)

(To be cont. Part-4)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 27 Jun 2006 9:03:37 AM Close
'sunilajoseph@aol.com' Part-4,

On 23 Jun 2006 21:21:25 you, ‘sunilajoseph@aol.com,’ wrote, “My answer is experiencing Salvation and baptism in holy Spirit is different in each person.” Bu the question was from ‘matt10_8’ and let me quote your quotation from him, “Could anybody tell me when exactly do we get filled with the Holy Spirit?” (Note: There are a few more sentences, which I did not reproduce.) When the question was about the exact time of being filled with the Holy Spirit, your answer is about the baptism with the Holy Spirit and salvation. (A kind of an answer that can be illustrated by a saying in Malayalam, “Ari ethra, payar anjazhi.”) What was the connection? May be another of your IED.

On 24 Jun 2006 19:57:36, 20:16:25, 20:23:09, and 25 Jun 2006 11:37:22 you, ‘sunilajoseph@aol.com,’ introduced another phrase and I wonder about its validity from the scriptures. That phrase is the repeated statements about “God’s spiritual mirror.” Can you, ‘sunilajoseph@aol.com,’ provide where we could see this in the scriptures. I am not asking about a so-called Womackian revelation.

In the posting of 24 Jun 2006 19:57:36 you, ‘sunilajoseph@aol.com,’ wrote, “What is spiritual reality? Salvation, Power of holy Spirit, Healing through the word of God, peace, prosperity, victory over evil spirit, and joy.” Could you, ‘sunilajoseph@aol.com,’ tell me whether Apostle Paul had this spiritual reality? Do the writings of Apostle Paul contradicts your statement in ‘Healing through the word of God?” Of course, it contradicts your assertions. My next question to you is; how prosperous was Apostle Paul?

(To be cont. Part-5)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 27 Jun 2006 9:06:39 AM Close
'sunilajoseph@aol.com' Part-5,

On 24 Jun 2006 20:23:09 you, ‘sunilajoseph@aol.com,’ wrote, “We remember the verse that Jesus promised where two or three are gathered IN JESUS NAME, His presence (holy spirit) will be there.” Through this statement you deny the personal presence of the Lord Jesus Christ when two or three are gathered together in His name as we read in Matthew 18:20. His presence is not the presence of the Holy Spirit. The person of the Son is not the person of the Holy Spirit. Don’t you know this truth? How can you say that you do? You dance before God and beat up demon possessed and misrepresent and misinterpret the Word of God. Let me quote you, “When a Christian walks like an unbeliever, they get the same result-death.” (25 Jun 2006 11:37:22)

On the posting of 25 Jun 2006 11:37:22 you, ‘sunilajoseph@aol.com,’ wrote, “Your spirit and His spirit merged and became one to create a new person. That is why God’s mirror reflects you as righteous, holy and pure.” This is another of your unscriptural rhetoric, an IED. If it is not one of your IED, you should provide support from the scriptures. There is no merging of His spirit with a spirit of man, as you claim.

Moses LemuelRaj has already answered you on your posting of 26 Jun 2006 06:24:28. Let me add to it: It is clear from your writing that you don’t know what is the Jewish Bible. The Jewish Bible contains only the Old Testament, the 39 books from Genesis through Malachi. Ask any Jew, Orthodox or reformed, they will tell you. The Christian Bible contains both the Old Testament and New Testament, the 66 books from Genesis through Revelation. You have a book – which you call “the Jewish Bible” - that has changed the inspired, immutable, and infallible Word of God to the fancy of man’s imaginations and wishes. It is not surprising that you are using it.

(To be cont. part-6)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 27 Jun 2006 9:08:43 AM Close
'sunilajoseph@aol.com' Part-6,

On that posting you also mentioned about a verse that is missing in KJV in connection with baptism. What is that verse? It is missing in yours also, that is why you did not quote it in your posting. It is not in KJV, according to your posting. It is not in your Jewish Bible, because you have no reference to it in the Old Testament. It is not in the Greek. You subscribe to the false claim that the New Testament was written in Hebrew. I say this because you wrote, “So if you know Greek or Hebrew, check those originals.” No one can check Greek in Hebrew or vis-ŕ-vis. Is this a Womackian verse that is missing in KJV?

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 27 Jun 2006 5:27:12 PM Close
Moses,

Let me bother you one more time. How can you say that, Tongues are given for a sign, ONLY for unbelieving Israel? I will say it is for unbelieving PEOPLE (congregation). It is not only for un believing israel (jews) but also for unbelieving gentiles. I agree with you that after born again there is no difference among them, it is only born again believers (members of the church-bride).

How can you say after witnessing those who speak in touges, prophesys and interprete like those who did in Paul's time that that gift of holy spirit is ceased? I think someday somebody will prophesys about you.

I disagree with you that prophesy has ceased. Thats why i don't want to talk to you about that subjcet. You know bible very well and unless a miracle happens you will not change from your belief.

Sunila.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 27 Jun 2006 5:36:41 PM Close
Moses,

I think God is working with all of us now. This is the time He is in action. Changes in Israel is for us also. These days God's eye is on all of us. Our time is near. It is the sign that he is coming soon. That is not for Jews only but also for gentiles. I know, you mean what i say. It is for both believers and unbelievers. Unbelievers see there was a God. They will know something was going on in earth those past days. You know some of us will come to know that people were getting holy spirit baptism.

Sunila.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 27 Jun 2006 5:46:44 PM Close
Gpk,

I agree to agree with you in all the points that you wrote. I didn't read all of it. I will when i get time. But i agree to disagree with you in one point. The person whom you discribed is not me. I am born again and have baptism in Holy Spirit. I wrote taking the words and few sentences from Andrew Wommack's book. I believe it and i experience it.

I have a simple qestion. I think it is appropriate to ask you. I don't want your testimony. For last two years i know you from kbnet. Can you share your experience with us? I know you are a true believer of God and study and write from the bible. Could you share with us your sunday and experiences. I will apreciate that.

Sunila.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 27 Jun 2006 7:28:00 PM Close
Gpk,

Thankyou for leting me know that Dr. V.K. Alexander passed away. I know him personally. I am a student of U.C.College, Alwaye.

Sunila.

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 28 Jun 2006 12:13:08 AM Close
Sunila,

Quote: "How can you say that, Tongues are given for a sign, ONLY for unbelieving Israel? I will say it is for unbelieving PEOPLE (congregation). It is not only for un believing israel (jews) but also for unbelieving gentiles."

What Scriptural backing do you have to assert that the tongues were given as a sign for unbelieving GENTILES also?

We read in 1 Cor 14:21-22, "In the law it is written, With men of OTHER TONGUES and other lips will I speak unto THIS PEOPLE; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are FOR A SIGN, not to them that believe, but TO THEM THAT BELIEVE NOT: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."

Please note Paul is quoting what was written already "IN THE LAW" - Isa 28:11-12. Also note the phrase "THIS people." It occurs in both the passages, 1 Cor 14 and Isa 28. "THIS people" is in reference to Israel. See the words "drunkards of Ephraim" in Isa 28:1. Further, the phrase "THIS people" refers to "this people which is IN JERUSALEM" (Isa 28:14).

This is already fulfilled in Acts 2. God spoke to them (Israel) in ANOTHER tongue, the worderful works of God. When tongues were spoken in Acts 10 and Acts 19, Jews were present, and some matter of their unbelief was being addressed at that time by the Lord.

There is no slightest indication that either Isa 28:11-12 or 1 Cor 14:21-22 refer to Gentiles when it says "THIS people."

Moses LemuelRaj

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 28 Jun 2006 12:29:29 AM Close
Sunila,

Quote: "How can you say after witnessing those who speak in touges, prophesys and interprete like those who did in Paul's time that that gift of holy spirit is ceased? I think someday somebody will prophesys about you."

Our doctrine should NOT be based on people's experiences. Peter described his personal experience to tell people about "the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:16-18). But he does not stop there. He says, "We have also a MORE SURE word of prophecy; whereunto YE DO WELL THAT YE TAKE HEED, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place" (2 Pet 1:19). He tells us that Scripture is "MORE SURE" than his personal, eye-witness acount of his own experience.

Some body will prophesy about me? They are all FALSE PROPHETS. Jeremiah 23:31, "Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use THEIR tongues, and say, HE SAITH."


Moses LemuelRaj

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 28 Jun 2006 6:34:39 AM Close
Moses LemuelRaj,

Quote:What Scriptural backing do you have to assert that the tongues were given as a sign for unbelieving GENTILES also?

My answer is: Acts 10:44-48

There were gentiles also who didn't believe in Christ. Acts 19:23-41. Acts 28:23-24.

The verse 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came MANY to him into his lodging;

That MANY includes Jews and gentiles.

QUOTEur doctrine should NOT be based on people's experiences.

My question: Did you EXPERIENCE salvation in your personal life? That is the spirit of Jesus Christ in you. Don't you want to experience it?

Jeremiah 23:31, "Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use THEIR tongues, and say, HE SAITH."

That word "use their tongues" refers to "using their physical tongue", not spiritual toongue.

You know there are false prophets. They use thier physical tounge and say something in the name of the Lord. I agree with that. Bible says in Acts 5:38-39 (38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.)

God said if this is WORK of men in the name of the Lord it will come to an end. But if it is FROM God you cannot distroy it.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

"Fullness of gentiles com in" meaning "complete curch - bride". Number of people added to the church has completed. That is from Jews and gentile. After that rapture. Untill then blindnes is happened to the rest of Jews who are not born-again. That blindness is true to gentiles also. Because they are not born again. That's were they are blind. They can not see Jesus crucified as the son of God died for their sins.

Your sister in Him.

Sunila.

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 28 Jun 2006 11:48:55 PM Close
Sunila,

1. Remember, the Lord said that He will speak TO Israel in another tongue (Isa 28). He did not say, Israel will speak in another tongue. So, when the Gentiles spoke in tongues in Acts 10:44-46, there were spoken to the Jews present there, who DID NOT BELIEVE until then, that the Gentiles also can receive the Holy Ghost. While those Jews were believers, they were ASTONISHED. Because Peter had earlier told, "the promise is unto YOU, and to YOUR CHILDREN" (Acts 2:39), and the "promise" in the context is the promise of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:33). Those Jews in Acts 10 did not believe Ps 18:49, Deut 32:43, Ps 117:1, Isa 11:10 (compare these verses with Romans 15:9-12). Further, nowhere in Acts 10 do we read that tongues were given as a SIGN to the Gentiles.

2. Your question: Did you EXPERIENCE salvation in your personal life? That is the spirit of Jesus Christ in you. Don't you want to experience it?

1 John 5:13, "These things have I WRITTEN UNTO YOU THAT BELIEVE on the name of the Son of God; THAT YE MAY KNOW that ye HAVE eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Romans 8:16, "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God."

Quote: "That word "use their tongues" refers to "using their physical tongue", not spiritual toongue"

I am talking about the physical tongue, and not as you misunderstood it. What I said was, the false prophets speak with THEIR tongue, and say, HE SAITH. The word is THEIRS, but they say, the LORD SAID IT.

I know that I am saved because IT IS WRITTEN in the word of God. I know that I am saved, and therefore am a child of God because the Holy Spirit bears the witness TO MY SPIRIT. I have received the Holy Spirit at the time I trusted in the Son of God.

cont'd...

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 29 Jun 2006 12:15:02 AM Close
Sunila,

Quote: "That blindness is true to gentiles also. Because they are not born again. That's were they are blind. They can not see Jesus crucified as the son of God died for their sins."

The blindness of Genitles is because of the devil (2 Cor 4:4). But the blindness of Israel is from the Lord.

Romans 11:7-8, "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, GOD HATH GIVEN them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day."

Isaiah 29:10, "For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and HATH CLOSED YOUR EYES: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered."

When Peter preached in Acts, he preached TO ISRAEL. Only once to Gentiles (Acts 10). See what he preached:

Acts 5:30-31, "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for TO GIVE REPENTANCE TO ISRAEL, and forgiveness of sins."

No body are preaching, or should preach today, a NATIONAL message of repentance to Israel. Paul preached the gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24), which is described in 1 Cor 15:1-4. Paul further said, "But though we, or an ANGEL from heaven, preach ANY OTHER GOSPEL unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8). God has stopped dealing with Israel nationally, until the church is rapture. But in tribulation, the "gospel of the kingdom" (Mat 24:14) would be preached, and an ANGEL will preach the "everlasting gospel" (Rev 14:6).

When God set aside Israel, automatically, tongues have ceased. Because TONGUES WERE GIVEN AS A SIGN FOR UNBELIEVING ISRAEL.

Moses LemuelRaj


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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 29 Jun 2006 1:05:43 AM Close
Sunila,

Quote: "Bible says in Acts 5:38-39 (38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.)"

Those words are the words of Dr.Gamaliel, "a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people." Unfortunately, Dr.Gamaliel is WRONG. He compared Jesus Christ with Theudas and Judas (Acts 5:36-37). Not only so, he says that if some thing is the work of men, it will come to nought, as it did in the cases of Theudas and Judas. Now Popes are the work of men. Vatican, and the "holy catholic church" is the work of men. Did it come to nought? Dr.Gamaliel was a SKEPTIC, who wanted TIME to be the judge of things whether they be right or not. What happened to his learning of the Scriptures? If he wanted to know whether Peter's work was of God, then he should have asked how did they came out of the prison (Acts 5:19). If he had asked, then Peter would have replied that an ANGEL has delivered them. Dr.Gamaliel, a PHARISEE, was sharing the podium with Annas the high priest (Acts 4:6), who was of the sect of SADDUCEE. Since Sadducees do not believe in ANGELS, Dr.Gamaliel did not want to offend them. Otherwise, the NATURAL question any man judging the apostles in Acts 5 should be - HOW DID YOU GET OUT OF THE PRISON? Because, the answer would have given them a chance of prosecuting the apostles for JAIL-BREAKING. Neither Annas the high priest (Sadducee), nor Dr.Gamaliel (Pharisee) asked that question. If they did, they would have known that the thing comes from God.

Today, we should not adopt Dr.Gamaliel's philosophy. We have means to determine whether a certain thing is of God, or not. That means is the Scripture. We don't have to wait like Gamaliel and say, if TONGUES were of men, they will come to nought. They are of men. But they won't come to nought. Did Pope come to nought? Did "Evolution" come to nought?

Moses LemuelRaj

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 29 Jun 2006 1:11:19 AM Close
PS: All things that are of men, will EVENTUALLY come to nought one day, latest by the second coming of Jesus Christ our Lord.
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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 29 Jun 2006 7:33:27 AM Close
Moses,

I have nothing to say. Not agreeing or disagreeing. I feel nutral. I have few questions came to mind after reading your post. I want to share with you. Because i don't want to stay with it.

Are you saying Jews didn't say in tonges in Acts? Only through gentiles God spoke to them?
And you are saying gentiles are not speaking in tonges these days. That is something else. Tongues have ceased.

Quote:The blindness of Genitles is because of the devil (2 Cor 4:4). But the blindness of Israel is from the Lord. (I BELIEVE IT, BECAUSE IT IS THE WORD OF GOD).

If it is so, how come some of the jews and gentiles came to faith? Is that the work of holy spirit? Or that REPENTENCE is faith by reading and believing the written word of God only? That means the old nature is not changed.
I know salvation is by hearing faith (word of God). When you hear word of God Holy Spirt work in us and the power come to us (Acts 10:44). That is repentence. Changing old nature.

QUOTE from Sajimaniath (16 jun 06):1. During Born Again experience Holy Spirit comes into us (COMES INTO US)
2. When hearing word of God or preaching etc (God fills with the Holy spirit)
3.Baptism in the Holy Spirit is HOLY SPIRIT COMES UPON US (I explained it UPON in my earlier posting). This means we are get baptised in the Holy Spirit. UNQUOTE...
I ALSO BELIVE THAT.

Do you believe that holy spirit is in earth now? If not what is going on with born-again jews and gentils?

I agree with you, saying All things that are of men, will EVENTUALLY come to nought one day, latest by the second coming of Jesus Christ our Lord.

Your sister in Him.

Sunila.

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 29 Jun 2006 1:15:23 PM Close
Dear Sunila,

Quote: "Are you saying Jews didn't say in tonges in Acts? Only through gentiles God spoke to them?
And you are saying gentiles are not speaking in tonges these days. That is something else. Tongues have ceased."

Acts 2 - Jews spoke in tongues
Acts 10 - Gentiles spoke in tongues
Acts 19 - John's disciples (Jews) spoke in tongues.

The question is not WHO spoke tongues. The question is, TO WHOM were the tongues spoken. In Isa 28, the Lord said He will speak to Israel in another tongue. What I am saying is this.. When tongues are spoken, they were spoken to the Jewish audience present. In all the 3 cases, there were Jewish audience present. In Acts 19, tongues were addressed to the Jews present (see verses 8-10). When tongues are spoken to the Jews, they are spoken as a SIGN (fulfillment of pre-stated Scripture) addressing their unbelief. The result would be acceptance of the Lord, or rejection.

So tongues are intended TO BE SPOKEN TO THE JEWS. Today, God has set aside Jews as a nation. He speaks only to individuals, not as children of Jacob, but as individuals. If they get saved, they do not have any special previleges in the church. Jew and Gentiles are the same in the church. In such a scenario, TO WHOM are the modern day tongues spoken?

Quote: "If it is so, how come some of the jews and gentiles came to faith?"

Romans 11:5, "Even so then at this present time also there is a REMNANT according to the election of grace." So the remnant of the Jews get saved as any other individual would get saved. But there is no Jew/Gentile difference. In Acts 2, 3, 4, and 5, Peter preached to the Jews, a JEWISH message. Read those portions. To day, we preach the same message to the Jew and Gentile. That message is in 1 Cor 15:1-4. We don't preach like Peter did in Acts 5, "Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for TO GIVE REPENTANCE TO ISRAEL.

cont'd..

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 29 Jun 2006 1:25:32 PM Close
Quote: "Do you believe that holy spirit is in earth now? If not what is going on with born-again jews and gentils?"

Of course the Holy Spirit is here on earth, in the believers. But He is not working in believers as Pentecostals suppose.

Moses LemuelRaj

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 29 Jun 2006 8:49:31 PM Close
Moses,

QUOTE:Jew and Gentiles are the same in the church. In such a scenario, TO WHOM are the modern day tongues spoken?

In this modern day, in jewish congregation God is speaking to Jews through prophets(= those who speak in tounges). In the gentile congregation God is speaking to the people who came in there. If it is a mixed (Jews and Gentiles together) congregation, He speak to both parties. That can be to a particular indvidual (can be an unbeliever- he will find there is a living God among them) or to the whole Church (if it is a group of believers). In the congregation there will be believers and non- believers.

Sunila.

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 29 Jun 2006 11:00:27 PM Close
Sunila,

I have repeated several times that in Isa 28 God said He will speak to the people of Israel in another tongue. So did it happen in Acts 2, 10, 19. Where did God say that He will speak to Gentiles in another tongue? Do you have a Scripture to prove?

The word ANOTHER tongue itself proves that it is meant for Israel. ANOTHER tongue would mean, any other tongue, other than HEBREW. Because, normally the Lord would speak to Israel in Hebrew, and send to them Hebrew speaking prophets (Ezek 3:5).

Please don't argue further if you don't have any Scriptural support. I have proved to you conclusively from the Scriptures that the purpose of tongues in the plan of God was unto the Jews, and now that He had set them aside, tongues are no longer spoken. They have ceased, as foreseen by Paul (1 Cor 13).

You should have a ready mind to accept Scripture as truth, and depart from your unscriptural practice of speaking "tongues" (which is gibberish). You should not try to bend the Scripture to suit your beliefs and practices.

Moses

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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 30 Jun 2006 2:47:44 AM Close
Dear brethren in Christ,

It is clear to me that scripture gives us the reason and the actual description of the circumstances in which the gift of tongues was used. At Pentecost a great company of believers and persons seeking after the truth were gathered together. They could not have understood what was being said and taught by the apostles since they could not understand the language. The Spirit of God mysteriously and supernaturally made it possible for all the different races and nationalities present, to hear the word in their own language. Everybody present heard the word clearly translated into their own language or dialect, and their was none of the weird sounding gibberish that is the practise of those who pretend to have the gift of tongues today.

Let me challenge anyone who makes such a claim to go to some remote part of the globe where they cannot speak the native language and there is no interpreter. Let them preach the word and then claim that everyone understands what was said. If they can verify that claim, I will believe that they do have, in truth, the gift of tongues. Otherwise, according to the scriptural pattern, such a one is an imposter.

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 30 Jun 2006 6:22:58 AM Close
Moses,

You didn't prove everything they spoke in tounges during those days, which is not recorded. You know, everything that happened those times is not recorded in the bible.

Thank you anyway. It was nice talking to you.

Sunila.

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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 30 Jun 2006 6:27:13 AM Close
Dear brethrens,
the Pentecostals beleive that the gifts of the Spirit, is the evidence that the Spirit resides in him/her. Is it not? Well the Bible definately say that. Check this out. What does the Bible say- it is the fruit of the Spirit(9-from memory)I think in Galatians 5, isn't it? It tells that the fruit of the Spirit is the evidence of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Why fight over things of which the Bible doesn't talk about.
The Lord in whom the beleivers abides, enable then to bear the fruit of the Spirit.(in the book of John, I forgot the chapet and verse), where Jesus is compared with the true vine.
May the Lord help us to understand His word and walk according to His will, and bear fruit in HIM.
God bless you,
Tinka
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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 30 Jun 2006 6:58:53 AM Close
Dear Sunila,

Quote: "You didn't prove everything they spoke in tounges during those days, which is not recorded. You know, everything that happened those times is not recorded in the bible."

What ever I said was based on what is recorded in the Scripture. And that proves that tongues have ceased. If some one wants to go and base their faith on WHAT IS NOT SAID in the Scripture, it's a free country, they can help themselves.

Sincerely in Christ,

Moses LemuelRaj

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 30 Jun 2006 4:56:56 PM Close
Moses,

Ok, well done. I agree with you. It is my misstake.

Sunila.

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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 3 Jul 2006 7:39:41 AM Close
Dear brothers n sisters in Christ,
One Scripture passage that speacily spoke to me, when I didn't know much of what other Christins thought, specially couldn't beleive that they may beleive in anything other than Scriptures is that-
Titus 3:5, which specifically says that we are saved "through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit"(NKJV). How can anyone have any doubt of things otherwise, after reading this?
Specially I was reading of so many false cults cropping up these days.
May Lord help us to be strong in HIM, and grow in His Spirit as we learn more from His word.
God bless u all,
Tinka
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Reply by : james2   View Profile   Since : 21 Jul 2006 7:36:54 AM Close
Brothers & Sisters in Christ,

Let me know if anyone could tell the language in which a tongue is spoken.

In Christ
James

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 21 Jul 2006 11:53:42 AM Close
Dear James,

The apostles spoke THE WONDERFUL WORKS OF GOD in the languages of "Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, ... Mesopotamia, .. Cappadocia ... Pontus, ... Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, ... Egypt, ... Libya about Cyrene."

This phenomenon is called speaking in TONGUES, because they spoke in "OTHER tongues" (Acts 2:4).

Moses LemuelRaj

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Reply by : james2   View Profile   Since : 24 Jul 2006 7:20:52 AM Close
Dear Moses,
As we know starting from Acts of Apostles that whenever there was a mighty filling or overflowing of the manifestation of Holy Sprit, we read that the believers spoke in New Tongues. As you pointed out, these were 'distinct' languages which other hearers could understand it as another language.
However, the tongues which are heard today are mere 'sounds' which are not languages understood. The argument put by Charismatic believers is that of 'Angelic' Languages. This explanantion of 'Angelic' language bypasses all other Biblical anwsers to an ernest seeker of truth for the Word of God.
I too have heard these spontaneous 'Tongues' but not in one instance have I got the meaning of what is being spoken.
In the Gospel channels too, renowned speakers have intermittant 'Tongue' speaking during Songs, preaching, but it all seems to be Gratifying self (in a spiritual way, of course).

Praise God the Father through the Son Who by the Holy Spirit enables us to praise God continually at all time.

James

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