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Keralabrethren.net: Youth Forum: Costly Marriages and Dowry

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# 00135 :  Costly Marriages and Dowry
I heard of a recent marriage in a Christian family(may be it is not true and I do hope so!) where the dowry handed over was 5.5 crores (4 Crores in cash as 'share', 1 Crore worth of a flat outside India, 0.50 Crore as pocket money. Can we avoid such lavishness (at least the publicity thereof) which pushes up the general market sentiments and (selling/buying) rates and most of the believers suffer (what ever layer of economic status they belong to) Our forefathers looked to God for divine and spiritual blessings, but now many look to the girl's father for earthly riches.
Post by : groom  View Profile    since : 3 Jan 2007


Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 3 Jan 2007 7:25:43 AM Close
Dear brethren in Christ,

Marriage is honourable to all, but this type of mariage is not less than the marriage of Laksmi mittal daughter. It is a pity & shame , when we see that Gods servants starve for food while in Lords vineyard they dont even have enough money to get thier children educated and get them married with the least expenditure. It is a disgrace to we brethren who left everything for Gods glory , but cling on to the worldly riches.
Mathew 19vs 16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

It is a warning from the our Lord Jesus christ mouth.

Yours in Christ
nelnob1

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Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 13 Feb 2007 1:18:06 AM Close
According the Indian laws, a daughter is to be given the fair share of her father's property. Thus if a fair share of the property (cash or kind) is transferred LEGALLY to the daughter in cash or in kind, there is nothing wrong with that.

The legal transfer of property can take place any time after or before the death of parents.

Legal transfer takes place when the property is transferred at the time of marriage just the way it would take place after the death of parents.

In the case "groom" has quoted, he is not sure whether the alleged amount was transferred legally. He does not even know that the alleged amount was transferred. So I suggest two things:

1. Do not be anxious about hearsay
2. Do not worry if it was done according to the laws of the land which allows (and even requires) legal transfer of property to the heirs. Obviously, if a person with millions in property gives a fair share to children, the amount would come to millions and others need not grudge.

Johnson C. Philip

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Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 13 Feb 2007 1:28:11 AM Close
<<Can we avoid such lavishness (at least the publicity thereof) which pushes up the general market sentiments and (selling/buying) rates and most of the believers suffer (what ever layer of economic status they belong to)>>

Keeping things secret is not the solution. That would be like blaming spoons and forks for the fat one is accumulating through overeating.

The problems of "market price" is created not because of publicity but because of prevailing human "greed", and that is the factor which needs to be addressed.

Johnson C. Philip

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Reply by : groom   View Profile   Since : 19 Feb 2007 1:47:32 AM Close
Qoute :
According the Indian laws, a daughter is to be given the fair share of her father's property. Thus if a fair share of the property (cash or kind) is transferred LEGALLY to the daughter in cash or in kind, there is nothing wrong with that.
Unqoute :

I do agree completely with the argument as above. But the demand from either side or out of social compulsions to show things off, especially at or around the juncture of marriage, is what need to be beware of. Personally I am not against the system prevalent amoung our people to part off the girl's share around marriage time. This gives the new family lot of economic security.

But there should be a sense of reasonability in everthing.

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Reply by : bethel   View Profile   Since : 19 Feb 2007 3:17:08 AM Close
Dear Bro drjcp,

"According the Indian laws, a daughter is to be given the fair share of her father's property. Thus if a fair share of the property (cash or kind) is transferred LEGALLY to the daughter in cash or in kind, there is nothing wrong with that".

What you said is absolutely correct and i don't think any christian will have a problem with that i.e.sharing of property owned by the father being transferred legally to daughter it is a very reasonable and appropriate act.The contention is 1)it is rarely actually the share of what the father owns,it exceeds much more than that,many cases father's have to take loans to give away this so called SHARE of the girl.
2)why this share of the father be transferred to the father in law or the son in law.As said in the law it has to be given to the daughter thereafter whatever she does with it is a different issue whether she gives to father in law or her husband.The point is despite of getting the SHARE from her father she does not have any possession on it whatsoever...Thats what the sad reality believing parents face today since it is not the share of the father that he gives away but he meets the demands to give away his daughter to be a wife and daughter in law...

To dear groom

The reference made to the crores given in the thread are exceptional cases where affluent believers give away part of their wealth to their daughters,i think we cannot question that saying it could have been used for lords work or any other good cause because everybody is answerable to God only in individual capacity for the earthly blessings God gives.

In Christ's Love
Jimmi

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Reply by : babugeorge01   View Profile   Since : 19 Feb 2007 5:01:42 AM Close
Dear JCP:

Fully agree with you that a man gives his children their inheretance, in a legal manner, and it is not another's concern how much it is. Be it 5000 or 5 crore.

However, I was wondering about a statement you made... I quote <<The legal transfer of property can take place any time after or BEFORE the death of parents. Legal transfer takes place when the property is transferred AT THE TIME OF MARRIAGE just the way it would take place after the death of parents.>>

Is your statement according to the law of the land or according to the Scriptures? I do not know fully well the law of the land concerning WHEN it is legal to transfer inheretance property to children. However, I believe that the Scriptural teaches POST_MORTEM ONLY.

Please clarify

Babu George

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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 19 Feb 2007 5:47:08 AM Close
Dear brethren in Christ,


I do agree to all of your comments, this is a part of the post, let us emphazise on the other side,when thousands of our brethren and lots of Evangelist in a great difficulty makes thier children study and get them a suitable alliance, many are there who dont get alliances because of thier poverty, yet they remain steadfast in thier faith, is it fair in spending such huge amounts for extravaganza for a believer, for a non believer or gentiles, they make thier income through various sources, and I am no one to question the huge income of a believer. Our forefathers left everything for God's glory and now we achieve everything for our own glory.How much perfect are we let us measure ourselves


Yours humbly in Christ
Samuel V.J

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Reply by : anne1   View Profile   Since : 19 Feb 2007 6:02:29 PM Close
Simplicity it seems is a lost trademark along with our forefathers. Our forefathers tried to live simple life & modestly and lived a separated life. It looks like we don’t know how to do that. We desire for bigger houses, most modern things, more expensive cars & it definitely spills over into our marriages. I don’t believe there is anything wrong for parents to share their wealth with their children. But do we really need to show how much we are worth during their marriage? Why does the whole world need to know how much we are worth? Doesn’t it borderline as showing off? Expensive wedding cards (that will be discarded), expensive sarees, and the number of guests only add to show the status of the family. Instead if we could have simple wedding with the closest family & friends and probably save up & share with our children. On the other side with a simple wedding for our children, we can share the extra expense in helping out with another believers wedding will only set an example for our children. If we don’t show them, how are they going to learn the joy of sharing? We talk about spending our eternity with the Lord, but instead of building mansions above we build mansions here.
On the point of dowry, why is there a need to share the wealth of the parents at the time of a daughter’s wedding. We don’t discuss boy’s share for our son’s wedding. That we wait till the end. So why can’t we wait dividing parents wealth equally to both sons & daughters at the end? Then there we won’t be a question of bargaining. Once the money factor is out, hopefully we can enter into a marriage most reverently & holy as it should be. Practicing presence of God in every moment of our lives will help us to make the wisest decisions even though it may not be the most popular one. I think we can dare to be different.
Ann
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Reply by : babugeorge01   View Profile   Since : 23 Feb 2007 2:30:09 AM Close
Dear JCP:

Fully agree with you that a man gives his children their inheretance, in a legal manner, and it is not another's concern how much it is. Be it 5000 or 5 crore.

However, I was wondering about a statement you made... I quote <<The legal transfer of property can take place any time after or BEFORE the death of parents. Legal transfer takes place when the property is transferred AT THE TIME OF MARRIAGE just the way it would take place after the death of parents.>>

Is your statement according to the law of the land or according to the Scriptures? I do not know fully well the law of the land concerning WHEN it is legal to transfer inheretance property to children. However, I believe that the Scriptural teaches POST_MORTEM ONLY.

Please clarify

Babu George

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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 23 Feb 2007 5:31:36 AM Close
Dear brother,

In Luke 15 the father divided his property between the two sons in his lifetime.

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : george.p.alexander   View Profile   Since : 24 Feb 2007 12:53:59 PM Close
Just a verse that crossed my mind:

"An inheritance may be gotten hastily at the beginging; but the end thereof shall not be blessed" - Proverbs 20:21


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Reply by : babugeorge01   View Profile   Since : 25 Feb 2007 10:34:00 PM Close
Dear Brother John Miller:

IT is true that the father in Luke 15, divided his property 'while he was yet alive' and his second son took it.

That is why his father says, at his return... 'This my son was DEAD, and has now returned to life'

Technically, death of the testator is when inheritance is divided. But if inheritance is divided when the testator is yet alive, it means that the relationship is to be deemed dead.

Surely the prodigal son did not DIE in the parable.

You will see the same thing with Abraham. When he wanted the sons of his concubines to 'die' toward him, he gave them their portion of the inheritance 'while he was yet alive' and sent them out of Isaac's way.

So I still believe that a believer should not divide his property while he is yet alive. IT is done post mortem.

Babu George

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Reply by : groom   View Profile   Since : 27 Feb 2007 3:22:44 AM Close
Brethen,

Many have mentioned about the 'LEGAL' transfer of inheritance at the time of marriage and whom are we trying to fool around by mixing it up with 'DOWRY'((It is like diluting SIN by calling it a weaknes!!)

Let us see the legal position at :

THE DOWRY PROHIBITION ACT, 1961

(Act No.28 of 1961)[2Oth May. 1961]


AN ACT TO PROHIBIT THE GIVING OR TAKING OF DOWRY

Be it enacted by Parliament in the Twelfth Year of the Republic of India as follows:

1. SHORT TITLE, EXTENT AND COMMENCEMENT.-(l) This Act maybe called the Dowry Prohibition Act, 1961.

(2) It extends to the whole of India except the State of Jammu and Kashmir.

(3) It shall come into force on such date as the Central Government may, by notification in the Official Gazette, appoint.

2. DEFINITION OF "DOWRY".-ln this Act, "dowry" means any property or valuable security given or agreed to be given either directly or indirectly-

(a) by one party to a marriage to the other party to the marriage; or

(b) by the parents of either party to a marriage or by any other person to either party to the marriage or to any other person;

at or before or any time after the marriage in connection with the marriage of said parties but does not include dower or mahr in the case of persons to whom the Muslim Personal Law (Shariat) applies.

EXPLANATION I Omitted

EXPLANATION II-The expression "valuable security" has the same meaning as in Sec. 30 of the Indian Penal Code (45 of 1860).

continued....

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Reply by : groom   View Profile   Since : 27 Feb 2007 3:25:11 AM Close
....continued from above

3. PENALTY FOR GIVING OR TAKING DOWRY. - If any person, after the commencement of this Act, gives or takes or abets the giving or taking of dowry, he shall be punishable with imprisonment for a term which shall not be less than five years, and with fine which shall not be less than fifteen thousand rupees or the amount of the value of such dowry, whichever is more:

Provided that the Court may, for adequate and special reasons to be recorded in the judgment, impose a sentence of imprisonment for a term of less than five years.

(2) Nothing in sub-section (1) shall apply to or, in relation to,-

(a) presents which are given at the time of a marriage to the bride (without any demand having been made in that behalf):

Provided that such presents are entered in a list maintained in accordance with rule made under this Act;

(b) presents which are given at the time of marriage to the bridegroom (without any demand having been made in that behalf):

Provided that such presents are entered in a list maintained in accordance with the rules made under this Act:

Provided further that where such presents are made by or on behalf of the bride or any person related to the bride, such presents are of a customary nature and the value thereof is not excessive having regard to the financial status of the person by whom, or on whose behalf, such presents are given.

4. PENALTY FOR DEMANDING DOWRY.-If any person demands directly or indirectly, from the parents or other relatives or guardian of a bride or bridegroom, as the case may be, any dowry, he shall be punishable with imprisonment for a term which shall not be less than six months but which may extend to two years and with fine which may extend to ten thousand rupees:

Provided that the Court may, for adequate and special reasons to be mentioned in the judgment, impose a sentence of imprisonment for a term of less than six months.
.......
continued and may be read complete at 'http://www.sudhirlaw.com/DOWRYACT.htm'

peace.

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Reply by : abygeorge   View Profile   Since : 8 Mar 2007 12:16:25 AM Close
Mr. Groom - you can get a copy of "Daivam Urangatha Veedu" - Where a Gulf brother is willing to give a Suitcase full of Money as dowry!
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Reply by : samv   View Profile   Since : 25 Mar 2007 3:51:11 PM Close
Father divided the property doesn't mean that you have to demand dowry. All bretheren, who is posting in this forum, shame on you all! .


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Reply by : Varghese   View Profile   Since : 25 Mar 2007 7:48:12 PM Close
[Quote by ‘samv’] Father divided the property doesn't mean that you have to demand dowry. All bretheren, who is posting in this forum, shame on you all! - [/Quote]

I would highly encourage 'samv' to clarify his statement above. I agree with ‘samv’ on the first sentence. But each one must be allowed to freely share their thoughts. So any emotional outbursts (like the 2nd sentence) are not helpful and would only cause strife. Let us learn to agree to disagree, speaking in love but yet stand on principles.

PS: Please note I am against dowry, which I believe is unscriptural. Any talk of money before marriage throws God’s will out the window. If a parent wishes to divide inheritance for their children, that is absolutely fine as long as such expectations do not determine the outcome of a possible marriage proposal.

God Bless!

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Reply by : ashprudence   View Profile   Since : 2 Apr 2007 6:32:40 AM Close
In my opinion the parents should be more futuristic for their children's well being and provide them the strong foundation required to be independant and stable in the society. Mere lavish extravaganzas and any pompous show should be abstained and they should set a sample of surrealistic survival with bright investments for a profitable future and for nurturing healthy atmosphere. It should not be a mere parental duty but more out of love and the emotion binding the relationship. It could imbibe the same in the offsprings and bring out an overall sense of responsibility and a well knit family affection. Charity should begin at home.
prudence
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Reply by : bob_titus   View Profile   Since : 8 May 2007 5:35:49 PM Close
Hi Bro. Varghese,

I was going through the postings on the matrimonial section sometime back and observed a pattern in most of them.

These are certain specific pre-requisites on the girl or the boy.

Like you said "Any talk of money before marriage throws God’s will out the window" ( I agree with what you have said), but If I replace the word "money" with "Education","Location","Profession" etc doesn't the statement still hold good?. I have seen numerous weddings happening where the parents have already decided that the girl or the boy should be like : a Nurse.. or Engineer, should be from US or UK or Gulf..or the girl should be Fair etc.

After keepin 'n' number of filter criteria (wordly preferences), the girl or the guy is decided and during the marriage cermony a statement is put forward -"It's God's will". Do you think it is right?

Regards
Bob Titus

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 8 May 2007 8:34:07 PM Close
Sorry brothers. We have to talk about everything before marriage. Especially if it is an arranged marriage. Otherwise how do we know "how are they" and what they want? Girl or money? That is the God's way. We pray and decide which groom we want.
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Reply by : bob_titus   View Profile   Since : 8 May 2007 9:02:43 PM Close
Obviously everyone will talk out, to know the other family/bride/grrom better,what they want and the priorities in life. Did anyone deny that in this discussion?
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Reply by : Varghese   View Profile   Since : 11 May 2007 2:49:29 PM Close
Pardon me for my late response.

Bro. Titus’ question raises a good point. In the course of years, we have lost the true meaning of what it means to know God's will in general, especially in marriage. We have our personal agenda and we sometimes sugarcoat our personal preferences to be as from God.

Let’s talk first on why we have preferences?

1. Compatibility
2. Economic stability
3. Certain geographic desires
4. Peer acceptance
5. Fear of the unknown etc.

God, the best match-maker, forbids a marriage between a believer & a non-believer.
But is that all to it? We tend to see how far we can go w/o falling off the fence.
God's will is not a line. It is a way of life. It is attitudes we must possess before we decide on important issues in life! It is a high calling; an extreme trust that God desires to see from His children.

(Continued in next …….)

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Reply by : Varghese   View Profile   Since : 11 May 2007 2:50:08 PM Close
(Continued from previous …….)

A popular Hymn states – “Tis so sweet to trust in Jesus / Just to take Him at His Word / Just to rest upon His promise / Just to know “thus saith the Lord” / Jesus, Jesus how I trust Him / How I proved Him over & over / Jesus, Jesus, precious Jesus / O for grace to trust Him more”. This is written by a young widow who saw her husband drowning in front of her, then went thru utter poverty, raised her daughter & eventually became a missionary to Africa. She learned what it means to trust in the Lord for her needs!

It is ok to have personal preferences. There is nothing wrong in it. The problem happens when we are caught up in such to a point that it controls us & prevents us from knowing God's will. As I have mentioned earlier, God’s will is not for sale and He does not reveal it to anyone out of curiosity! The question I would ask myself is whether I am prepared to trust in God for all my needs. It is a way of life that we must fully abandon ourselves to. Mathew chp 6 talks against worrying & exhorts us to seek His kingdom first. This is where we start.

The sadness is that after a marriage is settled based on family name, fame & wealth,
a public statement goes out announcing that the marriage is in God's will! The term "God's will" has been used so many times in our circle that it is watered down, so to speak! Then we turn around & wonder as to what went wrong in a broken marriage. Not to mention the many emotionally-divorced marriages in our community, yet staying together. Some we know, many we don’t know.

We must get back to the basics of a godly life!

God Bless!

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 12 May 2007 11:54:15 AM Close
Why should an emotinally-divorced couple stay together? Why one should emotionally divorce? That won't happen, it something else was done properly. A science graduate talk and understand another science graduate more than a history graduate. A person who is in the busssiness field needs a person who is outgoing. A rich person wants a person who knows how to handle money wisely. A pentacostal believer needs a person who beleive in Holy Sprit Baptism. A brethren needs a person who is submissive. Why should one could make their choice according to their status. If they have money they will give to each other, if they don't, they don't have anything to give, so that is not the right match. And if that person finds some money by borrowing from somebody else or receive as a gift, can they live together with that dowery in their whole life? Can they agree to each other in their life long? God doesn't want us to live a foolish life. He wants us to live a wise life. God doesn't want us to sit queitly. He want us to do something. If one wants to do missionary work in their life time, they have to look for one who wants to do it and live a life pattern suits them.

Sunila.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 14 May 2007 7:44:38 AM Close
Dear Sunila Joseph,

Please explain the foloowing quote from your posting. "A pentacostal believer needs a person who beleive in Holy Sprit Baptism. A brethren needs a person who is submissive."

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : mom23   View Profile   Since : 14 May 2007 1:50:49 PM Close
Dear Ms.Sunila...
I read your posting, and I understand the need for figuring out compatability when looking for a spouse, but...

1. You have put emphasis on a person's educational compatibility as a criteria in marriage.
I am so sorry, ma'm, but it is perfectly possible for 2 people to have a meaningful conversation, whatever their educational background might be.

Once the relationship is marriage, I don't think most couples spend their time discussing their college education and background for months and years....but they grow together as a couple and move on... beyond likes/dislikes, interests,etc. to family, spiritual outlooks and growth as a couple etc.
Besides a science graduate can learn a lot about history from his/her spouse and will learn to appreciate a different point of view and open their children's minds too, to possibilities beyond just science or history. That's why there are 2 sides to a coin even though it is technically one coin.
I think God's idea of your "other half" is beyond educational or personality compatability, looks or even wealth. These issues are so trivial and superficial in the long run.
All you mentioned as criteria for deciding a groom are "WANTS" and cannot be classified under "NEEDS".( for eg. "A person who is in the busssiness field needs a person who is outgoing.")

-You "need" a born again believer with a true, faithful relationship with God.
-You "need" a person who loves the Lord with all his/her heart and soul above all.
-You "need" an individual who prays and looks to the Lord's for guidance and is obedient to His will in everything from career to family.
-You "need" a person who will love you and honor you in the way the scriptures mention.

If you find such an individual, nothing else will truly matters because you have peace at home and an environment that enables you to grow and flourish as individuals and as a family in the Lord.Wealth and status are so transient...it maybe here with you today, cannot count on it tomorrow.

Cont....

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Reply by : mom23   View Profile   Since : 14 May 2007 2:05:23 PM Close
2. "Why should one could make their choice according to their status. If they have money they will give to each other, if they don't, they don't have anything to give, so that is not the right match. And if that person finds some money by borrowing from somebody else or receive as a gift, can they live together with that dowery in their whole life? "
I have no idea what this meant. You might have to explain this one.....is it about wealth compatibility???

3. "Emotional divorce".... You need to understand this before commenting on whether it exists or not and understand it in the context in which Bro.Varghese used it. Perhaps he would be the best person to shed light on it to you than me, though I agree with him fully.

"Why should an emotinally-divorced couple stay together?" I thought the reason was pretty clear...mentioned by everyone in various posts..

"Why one should emotionally divorce? That won't happen, it something else was done properly."
But , my dear, it does exist ...even though it is a truth we all like not to address at all or convince ourselves it doesn't exist.
So, do read Bro.Varghese's and Bro.Bob Titus's posts...they hit the nail right on the head...much better than I did.
I am looking forward to your explanation for Mr.Koshy's query....

Judy


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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 14 May 2007 5:23:01 PM Close
Dear Judy,
Go ahead. You have good points. But remember all of them are not happily married couple. If you are matured enough to understand the emotionally tough times of your life, you win married life. Otherwise you break apart.

Married life is not as easy as 30 years ago. If it is two people living together alone with 2 or 3 kids and if they are not co-operative and understanding enough in their dealings, it is difficult. You know this generation. How the teanagers are!

It is something different if a Ph.D person marries a pre-degree or B.Sc graduate. An engineer needs an engineer, even if the wife do not have to go to work. A highschool teacher can have a college professor. How about that. Just my opinion.

Married life is not a learning time, it is a living time. Marriage comes after studing everything. They must be matured enough to handle a family life.

Some girls are like this. They marry because they have to marry. After a certain age they are a burden to the parents. And the parents have no money and the girl is not studied enough. No doubt, they look for a groom. The boy's parents ask money. The girl's parents have no money. They borrow some money from others, or church or charity workers give them money. Then the girl and boy are married and living. They may not be happy at all. They are married because their parents agreed with the money and told them to live together. They may not be asked by any anyone, if they like each other. That is happening in India.

Judy I don't know anything about you. If you are married or not and how old are you? I think you understand what I wrote.


George P. Koshy,
I said that in regard to their spirituality.

Sunila.

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Reply by : bob_titus   View Profile   Since : 14 May 2007 6:41:53 PM Close
Hi Sunila,

I assume you are confused with the topic being discussed. I was trying to point out: man decides whom he wants based on his wordly desires and later call it as God's will. That is wrong.

The things that you have discussed about understanding, adjusting, caring, emotional tough times.. these are there in everyones life be it an engineer married to an enginner or a Nurse to a doctor etc. With God's grace everyone can overcome these ups and downs.

I observed that you have written couple of times about the compatibility with respect to money. Times have changed, if you are a Billionaire today.. tomorrow you can be a billion in debt. But if the marriage is not based on the worldly desires then I am sure the couple can over come any hurdles in life with Chirst.!!

Now regards to profession, that has to take the back seat when it comes to marriage. Don;t take me wrong, but that has to be the priority. I have seen emotional distress with people in the same profession: engg with engg ( ego problems, office timings,career competition, location preference by the emloyeers), and kids of doctors gone astray with no one having time to guide them, leaving them all the luxury of life to enjoy them in the way they want to.

These problems crop up, when you give more importance to the profession rather than Chirst and then the family life.!


Regards
Bob Titus

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 16 May 2007 6:17:09 AM Close
Bob Titus,
I understand your point. The topic was giving dowery and costly marriages. My question is what is wrong in giving dowery and costly marriage, if someone can do that. We don't know if those people are giving money to charity also. They may be. The argument here is about some one who asks dowery to some one who doesn't have money. We can solve the problem by giving some money to them as the gift. Why can't we agree with parents looking for professionals.

I have no problem in my marriage regarding money, education or religion. We and our families indiviually prayed for finding the partner for us and we found it. Everything is possible with God. I know this from my working experience. I deal with different kind of people everyday. Different culture, language, color, religion etc. Some times I refuse myself to go forward with certain people even if I don't show it to them. I am comparing myself with other people.

Sunila.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 16 May 2007 6:21:07 AM Close
Bob Titus,
I think for the quality of life an engineer should marry an engineer and a doctor with doctor and because they have enough money wife should stay home and take care of kids and husband. I have seen families like that.

Sunila.

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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 16 May 2007 6:54:19 AM Close
Dear Sr.Sunila in Christ,

Was reading all of your post Just for a smile , dont use the term " DOWRY" legally the term is banned, give and take is going on everywhere, everyone as per thier capabilities, but not DOWRY, if some one has taken dowry, as per the laws of land will be behind bars.


Yours in Christ
Samuel.V.J

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 16 May 2007 5:48:35 PM Close
Samuel.V.J,

If a stranger read this topic and some other topics, we look like saints. Sometimes when I talk to some people, I think why they are talking like garbage. We have to think about our self. Who am I? Am I coming under human standards. Am I thinking the way which is practical? Do we practice what we preach?

Sunila.

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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 17 May 2007 6:11:42 AM Close
Dear sister Judy,

I must commend you on your description of a believer's needs in finding a suitable spouse. Your definition detailed in the four requirements you set out could not be improved upon. All this talk of engineers needing to marry engineers etc., is a lot of nonsense.

In the marriage of Christians both parties must accept that their responsibilities to God come first. After that the most important thing is love and respect for one another. Christ and His church is the supreme example. Paul tells husbands to "love their wives as Christ also loved the church and gave himself for it". The thought there is a love that is prepared to sacrifice everything. He doesn't tell them to spend their time talking about engineering or even tent-making. What a dull existence that would be!

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : mom23   View Profile   Since : 18 May 2007 10:54:58 AM Close
Thank you Mr.John for your kind post.

Dear Sister Sunila,
I apologize for not getting back sooner. I must say, that I understand your point of view on compatability based on education and wealth/status etc. but I am sorry I don't agree with it though, because I feel it is a very secular outlook.
You see selecting a spouse based on his/her spiritual faith & belief, and not just his/her status quo/looks/education, requires us to have a tru faith and trust in God and God's will. That is a scary thought because it means taking that first step into the unknown. But it is a path that will lead you to a union where God allows you to flourish in His eyes (maybe not the world's eyes). So you may or may not have the big house and the big car 5 years down the lane, but you will have peace, love, respect that only God's love can bring into your marriage. And so Yes! they are truly happily married couples.Where as finding security in education/wealth/family as a main prerogative, ("born again/baptized/active in local assembly" as after thoughts)...this is a security we can see and we think we understand & can work with. But it is a false security which doesn't take fruit, in a Godly way, in the long run because the foundation itself is based on worldly security and not faith.
I am sorry, ma'm, but no one can quite "study" marriage. It is a continual learning experience...it grows, just as the 2 individuals in it grow. I mean, are we the same people with exactly the same thoughts at the time of marriage to,say, even 5 years down the lane? No! we grow as individuals, mature as individuals,and so does our marriage. Marriage too matures and changes over time. Maturity in marriage comes from submitting the marriage, yourself and the spouse to God and asking Him to be there in your midst always.God makes us all unique and special in His own way(with different fingerprints to different thought), marriage, too, is unique to each couple. Only God uses each marriage, if we let Him, for His glory.

Cont...

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Reply by : mom23   View Profile   Since : 18 May 2007 11:26:23 AM Close
Cont...

"My question is what is wrong in giving dowery..."
I am sorry like so many of the posts above and a detailed one by "groom" on 27th Feb. which goes clause by clause, it is against the law,it is illegal is what is wrong with it.And to even cloak it under "father's share" in my opinion, is underhanded. Father's share, whatever it might be can also be given at the time of his death, it doesn't have to be at marriage.
"Costly weddings" is personal choice and it doesn't matter whether they give to charity or not. God has provided them with the money, they are answerable only to God on how they use it.

"Married life is not as easy as 30 years ago. If it is two people living together alone with 2 or 3 kids and if they are not co-operative and understanding enough in their dealings, it is difficult. You know this generation. How the teanagers are!"

I felt I must comment on this. I have heard this time and again as an excuse for everything. Why do we believe that life was easy in the past. Here were women working physically from dawn to dusk, never ending, same chores day in and day out. No holidays, no paid vacations, no escapes, no electricity, no dishwashers, no washing machines etc. And not enough education or knowledge to keep up with their educated children, but still leading a fruitful,faithful life.
Today, we have everything to make life easier and we try to gain more but it is at the cost of our relationship with the Lord sometimes...and it is a terrible cost. We give our children the same values...education & status...and we wonder as they grow older..."This generation...The teenagers!!". It is not the teenagers or the generation...it is us, as parents that don't feed them the right values. Kids don't come pre-wired to follow the brethren belief just because they are born into that family. It is a long gruelling, never stopping-for-rest process for training them to be true children of God who will make the right choices when the time comes....nothing to do with any generation.

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Reply by : anne1   View Profile   Since : 18 May 2007 12:23:53 PM Close
Well-written Sis. Judy.

Sis Sunila,
You wrote, “I think for the quality of life an engineer should marry an engineer and a doctor with doctor and because they have enough money wife should stay home and take care of kids and husband. I have seen families like that.”
Sis. I disagree with you on that point. Engineer doesn’t need to marry another engineer for quality of life. For a wife to stay home and raise kids you don’t have to have equal professions. I have seen many families where women raise children while staying at home and I don’t think I can question the quality of their life. And some of the families that I know, the husbands don’t have the greatest job according to the world standards. But they live quite happily & comfortably.
There is a great excuse that in these times that we cannot survive with one income both in India & US. But it is quite possible to do so. The question boils down to our priorities in life. If you define quality of life as having huge houses, expensive cars then you will need more income. But if you can let of go certain luxuries in life, it is quite possible to live comfortabtly on one income and have great quality of life with mothers staying home.
Like every situation in life, even for marriage we need to seek God’s will first. He has promised to add rest of it. God knows who we are and he is the perfect matchmaker. SO he knows whom we should marry & whom we should not. We don’t need to help him in that. Only pray that God will help us realize His perfect will when the time comes. Instead of putting all the conditions in front of him, take a blank a sheet of paper & sign and give it to him. Let Him fill all the conditions & requirements & needs. Like Sis. Judy said it takes great faith to step into the unknown. But when we do the reward and the Joy is the greatest.

Annie

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Reply by : mom23   View Profile   Since : 18 May 2007 3:01:59 PM Close
Thank you sister Annie...good to see another sister with a similar point of view and your points about quality of life were right on the ball.

Judy.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 18 May 2007 8:13:26 PM Close
Judy,
I agree with you in all your points:

1)Must be a believer. Seek God first..... ( I din't say don't seek God first. I was talking about Bretheren and Pentacostal believers).

2) marriage is unique to each couple.

3)costly wedding is personal..... (If you have money you can have it. Then why somebody (viewers) criticize it).This is topic is to criticize.

4) we have to lead children in God's path. Parents have to do it.

----------------
Annie,
I agree with you also. Even if they are not professionals they can live together happily. Measurement of quality of life is not luxury.
I didn't say any word against that. I think you misunderstood me.

I have a question for both of you.

Why cannot we agree with parents who has a son(Engg. or Doctor) looking for a bride who is also an Engg. or Doctor? Why are we criticizing them if you agree with the above points? Can they live without other's criticism? Why they are a subject to the public? Can you leave them alone?

-------------
quote from Bob Titus:<<<<<<I assume you are confused with the topic being discussed. I was trying to point out: man decides whom he wants based on his wordly desires and later call it as God's will. That is wrong.>>>>>>>>>

I didn't miss his point. I think it is right if a believer choose his spouse based on his wordly desire and call it is God's will. What do you think? Why it is wrong? Won't God allow a handsome man live with a beautiful woman? Won't God allow an educated boy marry an educated girl? May be that boy or girl or their parents prayed for that. God gave them. But God won't like them dressed half naked and going to worldly movies or living a luxurious life or not taking care of children. We need only what we need for daily life. But that doesn't mean that my spouse must be ugly or uneducated. We can have it. You can have a kanjeepuram saree and a costly suite.

Sunila.

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Reply by : anne1   View Profile   Since : 18 May 2007 10:16:45 PM Close
Sis Sunila,
“I think it is right if a believer choose his spouse based on his worldly desire and call it is God's will”
It is very obvious what is seriously wrong with this statement. A believer chooses his/her spouse according to his worldly desire and then conveniently calls it God’s will. That is what is wrong about it. He/she is choosing a partner according to their desires & conditions and then asking for God’s seal of approval instead of God choosing a partner who would be His perfect will. We choose a spouse for our education; status, wealth, family name, employment, Green card etc. and at the end will call it as God’s will. And this is exactly the reason for many failed marriages among believers.
We call ourselves believers but do not trust God for His provision for marriages. We insist on marrying only Doctors, Eggs, CPAs & nurses. Our motive is not perfect Will of the Lord but worldly desires. This is the reason for criticism.
But how sweet it would be Trust in the Lord for an ideal partner? Do we need to spell out to God about our education, status, family name …. Etc. Doesn’t God know who our ideal partner should be? Do you think we know better than God in choosing a spouse? This is where Faith comes into action. Like Abraham who left for land unknown, just by trusting what God said. Just like how He sends his servant to get a wife for his Son. If we believe God for who he is, then we will have to show it in our practices too.
’Tis so sweet to trust in Jesus,
And to take Him at His Word;
Just to rest upon His promise,
And to know, “Thus says the Lord!”

Annie

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 19 May 2007 7:19:59 AM Close
Annie,
I think you misunderstood me again. You didn't read rest of my writting in the previous posting. Don't you pray to get hightest rank in your college graduation? Is that without studying? Don't you pray for a good husband? Don't you pray for an educated husband? Don't you pray for not to go in debt? Do you get anything without praying? Do you sit quietly, without looking for the answers of your prayer? Overall we pray for what we need in this world. We pray for a job. We cannot sit quietly after praying for not to go in debt and then not going to work. So those high educated boys prayed and studied in their whole life and prayed for a partner of the same kind. God gave them. These are rare cases. Not all of us are not like that. You have to understand that. Then why we ARE NOT HAPPY about other's welfare? Are we jealous? Why can't we accept the fact that God heard their prayers. EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE WITH GOD. If you pray and if GOD WILLING you get the answered. That doesn't mean that we don't have to look for our prayers. We can advertise in the matrimonial column for proffessinals for our children if they deserve.

ARE WE SAYING "it is wrong if a believer choose his spouse based on his worldly desire and call it is God's will” BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE IT.

Sunila.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 19 May 2007 7:24:56 AM Close
Annie,
I am sure the believer didn't say in public that he prayed for his wife and God answered his prayers. He said in one sentence in a polished way that this marriage is God's will.
Sunila.
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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 19 May 2007 7:28:23 AM Close
Annie,
If he didn't pray, I say he is a "liar"
Sunila.
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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 19 May 2007 9:28:53 AM Close
Annie,
What do you mean by "worldly desire".
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Reply by : anne1   View Profile   Since : 20 May 2007 6:48:15 PM Close
There is only one way I can answer all your questions – my personal experience. While growing up, even as a small child, I heard my mom pray for 3 things for her children. She wanted us to accept the Lord as our Savior, she prayed for wisdom & knowledge for them and god-fearing, believing spouse. I never heard her pray for anything specific other than that. Growing up I was taught to pray for God’s will in my life and ask for direction as to where he wanted me to be. Once I realized I have to pray for my future spouse, I was taught to pray for God-fearing, practicing believer that we may raise a family that will honor God, and to keep my future spouse & me pure until we meet.

God answered my mom’s prayer – her children are educated, their spouses are educated & successful and they are walking with the Lord. God answered my prayer too. Gave me success in my education, profession and a believing partner. After marriage, when we couldn’t conceive, I never prayed to God to give us a child. I prayed only if it is in God’s will, if not to show what we are supposed to do with our lives. Miracle of miracles, it happened.

contd....

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Reply by : anne1   View Profile   Since : 20 May 2007 6:48:54 PM Close
What I mean to say is that, I was taught to pray for God’s will for our lives and rest will be added to us. “But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you” (Matthew 6:33). My parents life & my life is a living proof for that. I can honestly tell you I never prayed for success in my education and profession. I never prayed for highest rank, I never prayed to keep me from debt. I only prayed for His will. God did give me success. My parents never advertised for professionals for their children. But God blessed them with the best partners that they can have. I think if we have a blind faith in God to do the best for us and if we seek His will he will do his part for our education, profession & married life. Adam slept while God prepared a mate for him. He didn’t even know Eve was on her way to join him. But God knew what was Adam’s need and he prepared that for Him. He will do the same for us.

P.S. “What do you mean by "worldly desire". Bob Titus will be the best person to describe it. Best way for me to do describe it would be 1 Jn. 2:15-17 “Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.”

Annie

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 20 May 2007 7:24:48 PM Close
Annie,
Good. That is we all do. WE PRAY FOR WHAT WE NEED. When you prayed for a child, you have a baby. That was God's will. Others have different kinds of need. Some people worry about money. They pray, don't let debt come to me. I have heard men praying like that. When your mother was worried about her children's need, she prayed for that. Like that some parents pray for their children to have spouse with same proffession. God answers their prayer also. I have seen couples Engg. & Engg., Doctor & Doctor. So why others have to worry about it. Why they have to look in the matrimo. column and criticize them.

God blessed Abraham. God gave wealth to Lot also. But after a time both of them choose different ways. You know the story of Lot and Abraham. That is the difference. The way of using your talents. If we do not use it in the right way, we will loose it. The wrong act from our part is criticise others. We have to understand that some students (believers)are rank holders . What we get if we are jeleous about them. It is better to take what we have and continue to focus our eyes on Jesus, not at neighbours. Thank God for those who have better surroundings than you and try to bless them. Remember not to criticise others.

Sunila.

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Reply by : mom23   View Profile   Since : 20 May 2007 8:52:53 PM Close
Dear sister Annie,
Thank you for sharing your story about your faith in God's will. It was touching and you are so blessed to have a mom who trusted God so implicitly and prayed for her children's walk with the Lord in the long run. And like you said God, was faithful & did bless you with exactly what you needed,when you needed it. May God continue to bless you.

Dear, dear sister Sunila,
First of all, you had a question for me posted on May 18th,
"Why cannot we agree with parents who has a son(Engg. or Doctor) looking for a bride who is also an Engg. or Doctor? Why are we criticizing them ..... Can you leave them alone? "

I think like wealth, each family's choice of spouse is something only they can decide and they are answerable only to God at the end of the day. You did not understand my point, all I was doing was debating the points you raised. There is a HUGE difference there. I wasn't critisizing anyone, just stating my point of view on what I thought was a priority in choosing a mate. At the end of the day God has given us all free will, we each do what we think is best.

Sister...please, please read and understand the posts before you reply. The point sister Annie was making by the following was...

"when we couldn’t conceive, I never prayed to God to give us a child. I prayed only if it is in God’s will, if not to show what we are supposed to do with our lives....What I mean to say is that, I was taught to pray for God’s will for our lives and rest will be added to us."

that she prayed for God's will to shape her life NOT for her need to be fulfilled in the sense you are talking of. Her whole story was to make that same point, to let God decide the "when" and "how"...not the point or type of prayer you are talking about at all.

I apologize if I came across too bluntly. I never meant that but... it was because I truly felt that you were not even trying to get or understand my point of view as you were so focussed on making yours. Hope you take this in the right spirit. Take care.

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Reply by : anne1   View Profile   Since : 21 May 2007 4:55:40 PM Close
Sis Sunila,
You didn’t get me again. You have to read carefully what I wrote.
“WE PRAY FOR WHAT WE NEED. When you prayed for a child, you have a baby. That was God's will.” – I never prayed for a child for us. What I prayed for is “only if it is in God’s will, if not to show what we are supposed to do with our lives”. Children were a part of God’s will for my life.

“When your mother was worried about her children's need, she prayed for that.” – My mother was not worried about her children. What she prayed for is her desire how her children will grow to be.

“Like that some parents pray for their children to have spouse with same profession. God answer their prayer also.” - Just because somebody prayed like that doesn’t make it right. God sometimes answers such prayers in His permissive will but it may not be His perfect will. Like sis. Judy said “wealth, each family's choice of spouse is something only they can decide and they are answerable only to God at the end of the day.”

Annie

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 21 May 2007 8:47:57 PM Close
Sis. Judy & Annie,
You both are right again. Annie, you and your mother had desire for their own children and so both of you prayed and asked for God's will. I can agree with that way. If you didn't have desire for a child, your never ask God for His will. That word "desire" can be understood as it is a need for something.

From my part, I didn't say, Don't depend on God's desire.

To comment on th initial posting, "groom" said may the story is not true. Even if it is not true, I will say they did something right. Because a wealthy parent passed part of his wealth to his next generation. He didn't wait for something unusual to happen for that. He decided how and when it should be trasfered to his son and daughter. We don't have to say it is worldly. They are keeping their wealth for their own.

Sunila.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 29 May 2007 7:26:53 PM Close
Job 36:11-12
11.If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures. 12But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge.


Proverbs 15:6
6In the house of the righteous is much treasure: but in the revenues of the wicked is trouble.

Proverbs 8:17-18
17I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.18Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.

Matthew 6:33
33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Psalm 35:27
27Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let the LORD be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant.

Proverbs 3:9-10
9Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: 10So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

Ecclesiastes 11:4-6
4He that observeth the wind shall not sow; and he that regardeth the clouds shall not reap. 5As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all. 6In the morning sow thy seed, and in the evening withhold not thine hand: for thou knowest not whether shall prosper, either this or that, or whether they both shall be alike good.

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