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Keralabrethren.net: General Forum: GLITTERING SAREES OR ORNAMENTS ??

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# 01881 :  GLITTERING SAREES OR ORNAMENTS ??

Isn't  ornaments a better solution than showing off with an eye catchy glittering costly saree ??

Post by : shane  View Profile    since : 6 Sep 2009


Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 6 Sep 2009 11:42:11 PM Close

Dear Shane,

Fix your eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. Consider Him, who endured such opposition from sinful men. (Heb 12:2,3)

Christ neither wore glittering clothes nor paraded around in ornaments. If you take your eyes off Jesus, you will definitely get distracted by what others are doing and what they are wearing - glittering sarees and shining ornaments. Once your attention is captured by these things, you will start wondering about them and comparing them to see which is better.

How often do you see a marathon runner wasting time looking at what other runners are wearing? I encourage you to drop this topic and get back to Christ and Him ONLY.

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Reply by : paul_thomas   View Profile   Since : 8 Sep 2009 1:11:54 PM Close

 Dear Shane,

How can ornaments replace the purpose of a saree? Both look good on a woman.

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Reply by : least_of_all   View Profile   Since : 8 Sep 2009 4:42:45 PM Close

 Dear paul_thomas,

I dont think Shane meant to ask whether women should  stop wearing sari at all.    From his plain statement , what I have understood is that his only question was why do we brethren give a big deal about women wearing some jewellery when we ourselves wear wear costly,  flashy & gold imprinted costumes for functions. Eg: Recently an evangelist in central travancore married off his daughter.  The sari worn by the bride was  so flashy and gold imprinted that all the people who came for the wedding had nothing to do but gossip abt the sari and the makeup the whole time.  Is there any right/wrong when it comes to matters like that??  

Dear moses2006,

I totally agree with your views that we should  fix our eyes on Christ our author and finisher of faith. But dont you think we are being hyprocrites when we say that we are strictly against wearing ornaments but in all the special meetings,functions, marriages our women wear all these costly saris and we dont mind at all.  I guess Christ wanted runners to be non-hypocritical as well.  And when people follow this trend, dont you think we are making this issue be re-solved as 'grey' rather than separate it as either black or white ?? which is again showing how pathetic our situation is ?? I think this is not a topic that can be just closed off so easily. Because if a local church thinks that women should not adorn gold or ornaments then the elders should make sure the very reasoning is maintained in all aspects. Else the whole church becomes hypocritical in its actions.  

If i'm right people of CPI (Ceylon Pentecost) wear only white and no ornaments. I guess they are much better off. Atleast they try to maintian what they beleive in.  What we are doing is like allowing a backdoor for people to use because they are not allowed entry through the front door.  All that I'm trying to say is that, if elders decide that gold or ornaments shouldnt be worn then its actual underlying reasoning should be explained to the church and also the same reasoning should be maintained in all aspects of our lives.  And we cant start pointing fingers on anyone when they wear ornaments or gold jewellery.   In this case we are having a hypocritical marathon runner who keeps saying that he is truely a trained & professional runner but comes to run for the race wearing a soccer  spike boots or a pair of trekking boots!!!   

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Reply by : paul_thomas   View Profile   Since : 8 Sep 2009 6:09:26 PM Close

Hi least_of_all,

I understood his question, but just wanted to make it clear, wearing ornaments is not a big deal ! I am sure they will go to heaven too and will be rewarded equally as any other believer. "Kerala Brethren" has issues with ornaments, and I totally agree with what you have to say.

If you go out of kerala and visit any other brethren - say "Karnataka Brethren" or "Andhra Brethren", they have no issues with ornaments at all. I think this topic has been discussed before and also the reason why Kerala brethren chose not to wear ornaments.

But during this time it is completely irrelavent. One of my friend (kerala brethren) got married and had invited couple of his friends (from different backgrounds). The moment they saw the bride and the fact that she did not wear any ornaments they asked - Is he marrying a Pentacostal girl??? The truth is not wearing ornaments does not identity us as brethren and I personally do not want anyone to identify myself with a cult group who teaches that salvation can be lost!

You are right, CPI are far better off than us.

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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 8 Sep 2009 9:19:04 PM Close

Dear 'least_of_all"

You said "But dont you think we are being hyprocrites when we say that we are strictly against wearing ornaments but in all the special meetings,functions, marriages our women wear all these costly saris and we dont mind at all."

Some brethren churches have some in-house legalistic attitudes that look down on those who wear ornaments. There is no biblical mandate that disallows ornaments (btw, ornaments can be made of many kinds of materials, not just gold and silver). My personal opinion, is that this is an area of accountability that each person has with the Lord. Those who wear ornaments and their hearts do not condemn them, are not doing anything wrong (1 John 3:21).

But not everybody can wear ornaments with an unperturbed heart. For some, especially those who are from conservative brethren or pentecostal backgrounds, wearing ornaments bothers their conscience. Their hearts condemn them and if they continue to wear ornaments despite their conscience, then it becomes a sin.

The same goes with expensive clothing. Some have no qualms over ornate gold woven cloths, others only find meaningful worship only in whites. The Lord looks at our heart, which, in a true child of God is very sensitive to the proddings of the Holy Spirit. If your heart does not condemn you, then neither will the Lord (provided, your heart is sensitive to the Lord). If your heart condemns you, then it is most definitely a sin to neglect it. For some people, wearing expensive clothing is acceptable, but ornaments are not acceptable. Such personal preferences often, adopted by a majority can set a legalistic tone for certain churches.

However, since the acceptability of these things are so much within each of us and in our hearts with the Lord, it is unwise to judge others in this matter or approach this issue with legalism. Nevertheless, let us also do everything with love. If I love my fellow brethren, then in consideration of their sensitivities, I don't want to do everything that my heart will allow me to do.

Rom 14:21 - It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, NOR ANY THING whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. If wearing expensive clothes and sparkling jewellary makes my fellow brother or sister to be offended, then I should NOT do it or I should find a different place where such things are accepted. This is the principle of love.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 8 Sep 2009 10:08:54 PM Close

 

Almost hundred years ago, into the land of coconuts
Came a strange unbiblical teaching among the KBs
Get rid of the Jewelries ladies, you will be godlier
Let your men teach women - ‘God hates gold.’
 
Someone asked; what verse Papa?
Oh son! Obedience is better than sacrifice
Just obey your leaders, don’t question
Greater blessings waiting for you!
 
Didn’t Israel bury their ornaments?
But Papa, didn’t they bury the gods while doing so?
Oh son! Obedience is better than sacrifice
Just obey your leaders, don’t question!
 
Papa, Abraham sent gold to Rebekah
And even gave dowry to her, not to Isaac
May I give dowry when I marry?
Oh stupid son! The OT doesn’t apply to us!
 
Papa! Susie - my sister, told me this
She likes to ‘break bread’ in church -
It is okay; but she needs to be baptized first
And never wear any Jewelry, so we please God.
 
Oh Papa! How do we get saved - Susie asked me yesterday
I said I will ask you, the man of all wisdom!
Let her give a testimony in church and get baptized
Not much time to waste, needs to be married off to the Dubai-walla!
 
I read in Revelation - there are streets of gold in heaven
Papa, what would I do then - how will I walk?
God of all creation can give you wooden sandals
And keep you away from the ‘dirty gold’!
 
Oh son! Obedience is better than sacrifice
Just obey your leaders, don’t question!
Is your mother still watching the ‘Serial’ - ah, with no Jewelry!
No wonder - I am left with all your silly questions?
 
Yours truly.

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Reply by : kumbanadan   View Profile   Since : 9 Sep 2009 3:23:35 AM Close

Dear Tom,

Very good piece of satirical poetry! I hope it is your original.

Let me ask you a question ? What was your parent's stand regarding ornaments? Did your mother used to wear ornaments?
If not why?

Regards

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Reply by : samuel.v.j   View Profile   Since : 9 Sep 2009 4:38:36 AM Close

Dear brethren in Christ,

From the originator of this thread till the last brethren who had expressed the views on this thread,Wearing ornament, glittering sarees , golden frame glasses, gold plated watches , big cars , posh houses all depends on each and every individual how much preference we give to that property with respect to our salvation, how much we are  humbling oursleves. 

 First of all , to the best of my knowledge brethren assemblies (verpaddu sabha) in kerala started more than a 100 years ago in the last quarter of the 18th century. And the pentecostal movement in Kerala and India had started in the first quarter of the 19th century and that also a split away from the brethren assemblies during that time(History records it) due to several factors. Its a shame on we beleivers gathering in  Brethren Assembly to be identified as a group of pentecostal, because the world doesnt know who are we now . Because in many fields we have lost our identity. The word of God is silent in wearing or not wearing, every thing should be in modest way the scripture is very much clear about that. Once we were proud that brethren beleivers are very much sound in scriptures , but to the sad fact we are over sound in scriptures, we can quote  verses for all types of justification and some of us are venturing scriptures to find where we can have a loop hole.

We had attained the name Verpettu viswasikal ( today Brethren assembly ) "sahodranmar " by the simplicity and the mentality of sacrificing several things by our early brethren. Sure our early brethren had many shortcomings , we are not eligible to comment on that, because we are perfect in holding the basics of salvation and later part of born again life with the drift of the world in many aspects. We had the identity by abstaining several thing, if we revoke back the properties we had abstained , then it is better we start with a new title rather changing the title which has already established its identity.

 

Yours in Christ

Sam,UAE

 

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Reply by : least_of_all   View Profile   Since : 9 Sep 2009 5:20:22 AM Close

 Dear tomj,

 That was the best piece of scribblings I've read in quiet some time.  If that was your own, my suggestion would be to copyright it.  I'm surely gonna pass this on to my brethren in my church if you don't mind. 

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Reply by : greencard   View Profile   Since : 9 Sep 2009 7:05:12 AM Close

"

<<Oh Papa! How do we get saved - Susie asked me yesterday
I said I will ask you, the man of all wisdom!
Let her give a testimony in church and get baptized
Not much time to waste, needs to be married off to the Dubai-walla! >>
 
Tom, why to the Dubai-walla? More than Dubai America is the promised land where  liberal theology can be easily preached and practised, and Susie can  marry again and again.
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Reply by : sam48   View Profile   Since : 9 Sep 2009 9:11:28 AM Close

Brethren's recognition is without ornaments, more than 100 years if we could follow that pattern,why don't we hold till the end. When Miriam and Aaron fought with Moses,every body knows the aftermath.Take this as a warning for those who ridiculing the leaders, peace to all.

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Reply by : least_of_all   View Profile   Since : 9 Sep 2009 9:38:28 AM Close

 Dear sam48,

I dont understand  where anyone is ridiculing any of the leaders here??  If what my grandfather has told me is true, then I guess Brethren's recognition was not about ornaments but a "life of austerity" that includes any kind of worldy valuables and a life of complete faith.  If you are saying that our grandparents lived only a life without ornaments then I think you need to research abt our KB history once again.  

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 9 Sep 2009 12:02:05 PM Close

 

Dear Kumbanadan & others who commented –
 
Yes. It is an original poem I wrote after reading the thread. Thank you for your positive as well as negative comments. I am sorry I failed to include my name at the end; it is not a purposeful omission.
 
Bro. Kumbanadan – Does it really matter what my mother wore? Does it matter if she wore Sari or ‘Chatta’ or Jewelry? I was ‘commenting’ on an unbiblical prohibition placed on the KB women that came out of a strange sense of ‘reverence’ to God rooted in the form of abstinence. No matter how sincere they were in their expressions, they were wrong to place any such prohibition on the Lord’s people.
 
Brethren – utter disregard to the word of God is done when people of KB refused [or chastised them in many ways and] to receive women into fellowship because they were not convinced of this unbiblical Jewelry prohibition.
 
If something is not in the Bible, how can we defend it?
 
Tom Johns - MI
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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 9 Sep 2009 12:24:53 PM Close

Dear Sam48,

You wrote -

"Brethren's recognition is without ornaments, more than 100 years if we could follow that pattern,why don't we hold till the end. When Miriam and Aaron fought with Moses,every body knows the aftermath.Take this as a warning for those who ridiculing the leaders, peace to all."

Just because Bible speaks of judgments do not use those as the rod of discipline in every situation. Please study what took place and what went wrong with Aaron & Moses. Jewish believers of the 1st Century had a much greater argument for insisting on circumcision before the gentiles were received into fellowship than the modern day Jewelry prohibition. I have written enough on this subject here [on KB forum] and I am not planning to repeat.

Dear least-of-all,

Feel free to pass the poem along. I did not simply write that for the fun of it. It is a sad commentary of misplaced priorities.

Tom Johns_MI

 

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Reply by : paul_thomas   View Profile   Since : 9 Sep 2009 1:36:21 PM Close

Dear Tom,

Nice piece of poem, and yes its the sad part of the misplaced priorities with the current kerala brethren, and also like you said I personally know many churches that refused to recieve woman to their fellowship just because they wore ornaments. Its very sad to see these believers go back to where they came from. I am sure these local churches will be held accountable before the Lord for their actions.

~ Paul

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Reply by : shane   View Profile   Since : 9 Sep 2009 2:38:24 PM Close

hello...'least_of_all' !

u r certainly not d least !! u expressd ur views wid crystal clear clarity !!

n tom urs was simple d best sarcastic poem i've ever heard...

fyn... wat i hav 2 say in dis regard is dat if v r perfect followers of jesus v'l pay least importance 2 topics lyk dis n v shud !!

hence proved dat majority f us r not perfect followers n ME CERTAINLY NOT as am d author f dis question .....fyn...so as v already realised dis fact dat v r not up2 d mark lets carry on wid dis topic n find it a satisfactory solution......

in ma opinion

advantages of the rule :

1)   can easily b identified as brethrens(only women)..

2) hav a sound sleep at night n walk wid comfort as dis brethren rule provides u 100% protection 4m thieves !!

but its a matter f fact dat 21st century women hates both !! ( dey neither lyks bein known as brethrens nor want a sound sleep).....

disadvantages of the rule:

1) can easily b mis identified as pentacost, d cosequences of which  all r well aware of....

 a lot more.........................................

thanx 4 ur replies.....

lets be d change v wanna c in dis world !!

wid luv

SHANE GODLY

ALLEPPEY

 

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 9 Sep 2009 2:52:05 PM Close

The Bible uses a woman wearing GLITTERING CLOTHES AND ORNAMENTS to depict apostasy.

Revelation 17:3-5 (King James Version)

 3So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

 4And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

 5And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

1 Peter 3:3-5 (New International Version)

3Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. 5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands,

Keep up the good traditions that our fathers taught us.

Bobby Chacko

 

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Reply by : paul_thomas   View Profile   Since : 9 Sep 2009 3:47:14 PM Close

 Traditions or culture do not have precedence over Biblical truth for a follower of Christ.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 9 Sep 2009 6:42:36 PM Close

 

[I wrote the poem I posted yesterday in a hurry. Some of you responded positively and some negatively. I appreciate those comments. I felt I needed to change parts of it and add some for clarity and flow. There will be lot more to alter if I look closely again. But here is a revised version in the next frame.]
 
Tom Johns_MI
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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 9 Sep 2009 6:54:47 PM Close

 

BLINDLY FOLLOW PAPA’S WAYS!
 
One hundred some years ago, into the land of coconuts
Came a strange unbiblical teaching among the KBs
‘Get rid of the Jewelries ladies’, you will be godlier
Let your men teach women - ‘God hates gold!!’
 
Young Joey asked; what verse Papa?
Oh son! Obedience is better than sacrifice
Just obey your leaders, don’t question
Greater blessings waiting for you!
 
Didn’t Israel bury their ornaments prior to Bethel?
But Papa, didn’t they bury the ‘gods’ while doing so?
Joey, too much probing is simply troublesome,
Blindly follow Papa’s ways; your life will be wholesome.
 
Papa, Abraham sent gold to Rebekah, the bride;
And even gave dowry to her, not to Isaac the Groom!
May I give dowry when I marry my bride?
Oh my silly son! Those verses are not for us!
 
Don’t you know the Psalm; ‘Sons are a gift of the Lord?’
He had dowry in mind when he wrote it for us KB
Daughters are like having a pocket with the hole
Our Susie will burn my Bank account in few years, you will see.
 
But Papa, the Psalmist wrote ‘Children are a gift of the Lord’
So, Susie and I both should be gifts to Mom and Papa, not just ‘sons;’
Son! Wait till you are older to study the Bible –listen to me for now,
Prepare well for the entrance exam! That’s what is needed now.
 
Papa! Susie - my sister, told me this
She likes to ‘break bread’ in church -
It is okay; but she needs to be baptized first
And never wear any Jewelry, so we please God.
 
Oh Papa! How do we get saved? - Susie asked me yesterday;
I said I will ask you Papa, the man of all wisdom!
Give a testimony in church as Alice her cousin did, and get baptized
Without baptism who would marry her? No decent NRI would!
 
I read in Revelation - there are streets of gold in heaven
Papa, what would I do then - how will I walk?
God of all creation will give you wooden sandals
And keep you away from the ‘dirty gold’!
 
 
Is your mother still watching the ‘Serial’ - ah, with no Jewelry!
She looks Angelic by the Plasma Screen, in her glittering Sari!
Before the Cricket game comes on, we need family prayer!
Sure, we need to pray for the ‘hungry Evangelists’ in the N. India!

Yours truly,

Tom Johns_MI

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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 9 Sep 2009 7:58:03 PM Close

Dear Tom J,

While its credible to cite the KB prohibition of ornaments as "excessive unscriptural legalism", the cheap jabs at KB that you have going is really uncalled for (btw, do you even attend a KB church?). The KB forefathers were sincere in saying no to jewellary, booze and worldliness (radio, tv, etc). They did not wake up one day and decide to do things different. At least give them credit for being sincere to the way they interpreted scripture and to their wives for being submissive and obedient to the teachings. Would you agree that the mantra has since changed to this - A "diluted" scriptural interpretation is more palatable, socially more acceptable and offends lesser than an unsubmissive wife?!

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Reply by : joyboy   View Profile   Since : 9 Sep 2009 8:00:01 PM Close

1. Jesus Christ himself uses rings in his parable of the prodigal son.  When hte son returns, the father tells a servant to put a ring on his finger. 
2. God himself tells the israelites to plunder the egyptians of their ornaments upon the exodus.
3. In addition to ornaments, braided hair, costly jewellery are all listed.  Why pick on one, not the others?
4. It's interesting to note that the world defines watches and sunglasses as ornaments also.  These are all considered accessories.  I wonder how many of those condemning the wearing of jewellery wear high costing seikos, citizens or even rolexes.  Also tie pins are ornaments.  Are these all condemned?

Let's be consistent.

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Reply by : kumbanadan   View Profile   Since : 10 Sep 2009 3:11:05 AM Close

In my last posting i have asked the question to tom " What was your parent's stand regarding ornaments? Did your mother used to wear ornaments?" because, i knew his parents  and i have heard his father teaching & preaching many a times for simple life and he was deadly against jewelry as a sign of worldliness. If  Tom can refute this, let him.

I doubt whether Tom identifies himself as a brethren now. In this forum he is trying to misguide people on various teachings by taking a liberal view which is definitely pleasing to many. He is adopting cheap jimmicks to cast mud on brethren who stood for scripture, values & principles.

 

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Reply by : godly277   View Profile   Since : 10 Sep 2009 8:49:00 AM Close

Kerala Brethren are known for not wearing Ornaments. I think it should be like that. Otherwise we should change the name. Let us continue as it is atleast in our outward appearance...!!!

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 10 Sep 2009 9:54:02 AM Close

Dear Kumbanadan

I have asked almost the same question to Tomj in 2004 in "Separation or Segregation" and "Separation and Comprise" threads, even though I do not know his parents.

From his own writing I could understand that he born and brought up in Kerala with separated parents and migrated to USA and adopted western tradition and culture and defending for it.

Ornamentation and ornaments usage is a personal choice as well as it is the choice of the Independent assemblies.

Condemning and accusing fore-fathers separation is a crime.

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Reply by : believer.bible   View Profile   Since : 10 Sep 2009 12:00:58 PM Close

Not wearing ornaments in this day and age has nothing to do with following the values of our forefathers. That is a blatant lie in the light of conveniently ignore that we are perfectly fine with wearing flashy watches, the best branded clothing, big cars and big houses beyond what we need. It fine that we ask our children to give their secular studies and progress preeminence over Bible studies, family values and church activities. Were these also the values our forefathers stood for?

Not wearing ornaments in this day and age has more to do with "Kerala" brethren CULTURE (yes, it is restricted to only KERALITE BRETHREN). It is a cultural practice among Christians in Kerala who identify themselves as "Brethren". Some may be principled in this respect, assemblies may have practices based on these principles for the larger good and that's fine. But making it legalistic without empathy is also a stumbling block.

Mathew 15:1-6

1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free.
Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

 Regards,

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Reply by : hgkl   View Profile   Since : 10 Sep 2009 1:50:59 PM Close

It is interesting to note that whenever activity reduces on this website someone brings up the topic of 'ornaments' or 'tongues'. A goodway to go ahead indeed!  Why would any one need to keep on discussing so vigorously over and over again as to whether 'ornaments' could be worn or not? Bible is restrictive on the usage of 'ornaments' rather than permissive about the usage of 'ornaments'.  Bible does not show liberalism toward wearing ornaments. Bible also says that neither parents are responsible for children's sins, nor are the children responsible for the sins parents. (Deut. 24:16).  There is no point in asking if anyone's parent has used or not used ornaments in their lives.  A preacher once was saying that until you lust afer a woman, appreciating her beauty and talking to her is not a sin. It is the thoughts in the heart of a beliver that matter. Wear or no wear of Jewelry, but be pure in conscience.

How much of quality or quantity of Jewelry on a person would putrilage a person?

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Sep 2009 3:18:24 PM Close
Dear Members of the Forum,
 
I wish to ask those who find fault with me, when I ask for the names of those who post certain kind of writings on this Forum.  They always cite the personal rights of individuals to use pseudonym while making such posts.  On 10 Sep 2009, 'Kumbanadan' asked brother Tom Johns about his father.  I do not see such a defense of the personal rights for Tom Johns, when asked for his father and also about migrating to USA.  I ask, why are you silent?  Don't you think that Tom Johns has the same right as all others have?  Or, is there a double standard?
 
As I do not wish to change the subject of this thread, I will not make another reply to your replies, but I wish to hear from the defenders of personal rights, once.  I hope you will address my questions and not try to hijack this thread.  'Kumbanadan' has already tried to hijack this thread, by asking personal questions about Tom Johns' father.
 
Shalom Malekim!!!.
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Reply by : bet2513   View Profile   Since : 11 Sep 2009 4:30:13 PM Close

This topic has been extensively discussed on this forum I think, and I know the young generation realizes very well, what our forefathers did, and the reason why the brethren in kerala decided to give away with all the luxuries of life and lead a simple "Verpettaa" life which is not the case anymore except for the ornaments part. I am one among those youngsters from Kerala (Mid 20's). I work in a metro city now and go to a non-brethren, local church ever since I left kerala. Given a chance if I have to relocate to a new place I would continue to do the same. Many of my friends from kerala, never goto churches here since they are over and done with the hypocrites in the mid-travancore region.

Now the scene is different. Elders and members in the assembly behave like what "Kumbanadan" does on this forum. Instead of accepting the truth they sought to personal attacks and reasoning. I would say all these "Moopanmaru" can hold on to their center of faith "Kumbanadu" and preach what they want and live exactly the opposite. It was sad to see one family go from our church couple of months back just in the name of ornaments that lead to a bigger fight between the members of the church. They sought to personal attack and it was worse than a market place scene. The new believer couple were sensible enough to leave the church but the bigger fishers out ther from kumbanadu (Pentacostal) fished them up and now they have a very happy and peaceful gathering. 

I would be surprised to the next generation still holding on to the so called "Kerala Brethren" values, and I believe we are more sensible than our previous generation to not fight and split churches in the name of ornaments and wordly materials! Worst part is nobody care what the elders think or talk and so the church values are lost.

One thing I really appreciate about my cousins in US, they got to these english chapels, less "kerala brethren" people, good teachers and leaders in the church and so they atleast learn good values and principals in life. The sad part about kerala brethren is that the church no more plays a role in a youngster's life. Its a place of boreddum on sundays, with the moopanmarus in the same old designated chairs and the whole breaking of bread is ochestrated. Its so predictable that you know who is going to pray/sing/preach and who is going to snore at what time.

Now to "Kumbanadan" - I am not replying for Tom, but what do you think is so great about being identified as "BRETHREN"?  Many of us (about myself and my friends in college) feel ashamed to introduce ourselves as brethren in colleges and schools - reason, no one knows what brethren is or we have a bad name somewhere or like someone said here, everyone thinks we are penthecost. I always call myself a Christian without a denomination tag and that actually gives me an opening to tell the truth in the Bible, since others ask why no denomination.

Now to what my parents preached/teached and practiced. They did what they wanted to, does that mean the same mistakes should be carried on??? You talked about "he was deadly against jewelry as a sign of worldliness". Do you think jewelry is what shows the sign of worldliness these days???? If you think the same so be it. Nothing can change your mindset and I don't think joyboy,pal, tom and others here are being liberal, they are telling the truth.

If you stand up to the true values of "Kerala Brethren" and the commandments given to you by the brethren forefathers, can you refute what joyboy has to say on point number 4???????

Wake up! things have changed a lot around. Ornaments are the least expensive considering the ornaments/accessories that is loaded in the Skoda/ Camry/Benz of the moopans in my church.

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Reply by : hgkl   View Profile   Since : 11 Sep 2009 4:34:08 PM Close


Unfortunately you are reading too much into the writing of 'Kumbanadan', who seems to be more inclined toward asserting that not-wearing Jewelry should be our desire, rather than wearing Jewelry. While showing his intentions he could not tolerate Tom J's writing in a satirical form.  If any one truly discerns what that satire is,  it is neither a poem nor based on any ideologies. It is a composure of miscellaneous thoughts at random.   It was prose,  which he divided into stanzas of four lines each, to make it appear like a poem.   A poem should have a sense of rhythmic balance.  These elements are lacking in his so-called poem.  It was Tom J's personal choice, and he went beyond comprehension to start a new thread and take undue advantage of this issue to come out as a sacrificed lamb!  I am neither supporting 'Kumbanadan' nor condemning Tom Jones, but they are my own views.

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Reply by : paul_thomas   View Profile   Since : 11 Sep 2009 4:49:38 PM Close

" Greencard" - More susies are getting married again and again in India these days not in America. Sad part is all Dubai wallas have to goto India to get married :)

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 11 Sep 2009 5:03:55 PM Close

Dear hgkl,

You may want to check out the definitions of 'prose poems.'  Here is an interesting one --

'an impossible amalgamation of lyric poetry, anecdote, fairy tale, allegory, joke, journal entry, and many other kinds of prose. Prose poems are the culinary equivalent of peasant dishes, like paella and gumbo, which bring together a great variety of ingredients and flavors, and which in the end, thanks to the art of the cook, somehow blend. Except, the parallel is not exact. Prose poetry does not follow a recipe. The dishes it concocts are unpredictable and often vary from poem to poem.'
_____________________________

Am I a sacrificed lamb? Except for the few gray hair, there is no resemblence..

Tom Johns_MI

 

 

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Reply by : hgkl   View Profile   Since : 11 Sep 2009 5:24:37 PM Close

 

Dear Tom,

Prose poetry should have written prose, that is to say, it should be a hybrid form that should combine poetry and prose.  The poem, which you want to define as prose poetry should have rhythm, rhyme, repetition, assonance, consonance, and imagery. Except for imagery none of the elements are present in your so-called poem.

You did not reply to 'believer-bible' in the right form about pre-destination.  You made it sensational, emotional. Many times you make your writing so.  You take political mileage out from many discussions. God bless your gray hair with lot of experience in this field.
 

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 11 Sep 2009 5:39:02 PM Close

Based on the following scriptures is the following statement valid - “Christianity is a religion of the heart; it is not a religion of conformity”?

Luke 6:43-45 (New International Version)

A Tree and Its Fruit

 43"No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.

While wearing jewelry or a watch as a necessity is not a sin; excess decoration in order to get attraction will lead to sin – the same sin by which Lucifer fell.

Ezekiel 28:17 (King James Version)

 17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

It leads to the violation of the first set of commandments (we tend to love ourselves more than God):

Mark 12:28-30 (King James Version)

 28And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

 29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

 30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Bobby Chacko

 

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 11 Sep 2009 5:46:16 PM Close

Dear hgkl,

[This will be the last posting related to the 'prose poems.']

More precise web definition –“ Prose poetry is usually considered a form of poetry written in prose that breaks some of the normal rules associated with prose discourse, for heightened imagery or emotional effect.”

Also, FYI.. I used to teach College students in the 70s, Shakespeare, Wordsworth, Shelly, Keats, Milton etc. I am familiar with meter, rhyme, imagery and various ingredients. I am / was not a ‘fan’ of rigidity found in the poems of old. So, I purposely wrote the way I wrote what I wrote. But thank you for pointing out the ‘errors’ based on the rigidity standards established in the Victorian and Renaissance Era. [Please end this discussion here.]

Tom Johns_MI

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Reply by : hgkl   View Profile   Since : 11 Sep 2009 8:00:07 PM Close

Not for anymore discussion.  The plsamist had a comfortable drift from the rigidity of Victorian era.

 

Psalm 93

 1The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.
 2Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting. 
 3The floods have lifted up, O LORD, the floods have lifted up their voice; the floods lift up their waves. 
 4The LORD on high is mightier than the noise of many waters, yea, than the mighty waves of the sea. 
 5Thy testimonies are very sure: holiness becometh thine house, O LORD, for ever.

Another example of prose poetry:

 

"The Song of Despair"
By Pablo Neruda

The memory of you emerges from the night around me.
The river mingles its stubborn lament with the sea.

Deserted like the wharves at dawn.
It is the hour of departure, oh deserted one!

Cold flower heads are raining over my heart.
Oh pit of debris, fierce cave of the shipwrecked.

In you the wars and the flights accumulated.
From you the wings of the song birds rose.

You swallowed everything, like distance.
Like the sea, like time.  In you everything sank!

It was the happy hour of assault and the kiss.
The hour of the spell that blazed like a lighthouse.

Pilot's dread, fury of a blind diver,
turbulent drunkenness of love, in you everything sank!

In the childhood of mist my soul, winged and wounded.
Lost discoverer, in you everything sank!

You girdled sorrow, you clung to desire,
sadness stunned you, in you everything sank!

I made the wall of shadow draw back,
beyond desire and act, I walked on.

Oh flesh, my own flesh, woman whom I loved and lost,
I summon you in the moist hour, I raise my song to you.

Like a jar you housed the infinite tenderness,
and the infinite oblivion shattered you like a jar.

There was the black solitude of the islands,
and there, woman of love, your arms took me in.

There were thirst and hunger, and you were the fruit.
There were grief and the ruins, and you were the miracle.

Ah woman, I do not know how you could contain me
in the earth of your soul, in the cross of your arms!

How terrible and brief was my desire of you!
How difficult and drunken, how tensed and avid.

Cemetery of kisses, there is still fire in your tombs,
still the fruited boughs burn, pecked at my birds.

Oh the bitten mouth, oh the kissed limbs,
oh the hungering teeth, oh the entwined bodies.

Oh the mad coupling of hope and force
in which we merged and despaired.

And the tenderness, light as water and as flour.
And the word scarcely begun on the lips.

This was my destiny and in it was the voyage of my longing,
and in it my longing fell, in you everything sank!

Oh pit of debris, everything fell into you,
what sorrow did you not express, in what sorrow are you not drowned!

From billow to billow you still called and sang.
Standing like a sailor in the prow of a vessel.

You still flowered in songs, you still broke in currents.
Oh pit of debris, open and bitter well.

Pale blind diver, luckless slinger,
lost discoverer, in you everything sank!

It is the hour of departure, the hard cold hour
which the night fastens to all the timetables.

The rustling belt of the sea girdles the shore.
Cold stars heave up, black birds migrate.

Deserted like the wharves at dawn.
Only the tremulous shadow twists in my hands.

Oh farther than everything.  Oh farther than everything.

It is the hour of departure.  Oh abandoned one!

 

 

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Reply by : paul_thomas   View Profile   Since : 11 Sep 2009 8:27:38 PM Close

 I read Br. Tom's personal posting and I appreciate your openess on this forum unlike others with fake IDs trying to criticize others. 

To bet2513 - I can understand where you are coming from, and your attitude. It is not just yours but a majority of youths from the 'kerala brethren' background. It is sad to see them drift apart from the fellowship with believers, especially in places like Bangalore and Chennai. Since you know the truth and the mistakes of your elders and church leadership, pray for them and for a change in their hearts or for a new leadership, I am sure you will find a way.

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Reply by : kumbanadan   View Profile   Since : 14 Sep 2009 9:13:31 AM Close

Brethren in kerala are very comfortable with out ornaments. If any body wants to wear, let them.
In this forum  Tom J always attacks kerala brethren and their teachings at what ever oportunity he gets. He does it with a  vengeant attitude. He is more guided by his hatred for kerala brethren than his stand for scripture.
In the present thread you can read from his cheap poetry in the first post that rather than defending his views on the basis of scripture, he is attacking the kerala brethren fathers and ridiculing them in the most heinous manner. Since he has his roots in kerala and his parents stood for the same priciples which he is now attacking, I enquired about that. I dont think i have done anything wrong in doing so.
If people wants to wear ornaments, let them. But trying to induce this in to the churches in kerala is in vain. A few in kerala have tried that in the past, but they have miserably failed and  had to leave for "greener pastures" or retract and keep quiet. From Tom's poetry itself, a hundred years ago we followed this teaching when we came to the truth and we still hold it tight.
 

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 14 Sep 2009 1:10:20 PM Close

 

Dear Bro. Kumbanadan,
 
God is my witness; I have no hatred or lack of compassion for my KB. In fact I care a lot for my fellow KB, and particularly the KB youth.
 
When you say ‘if anybody wants wear [Jewelry] let them’, are you saying you would baptize them and wholeheartedly embrace them in your fellowship without removing the Jewelry? If you do, we both stand for the same principle.
 
Please read ‘bet2513’ posting.
 
Tom Johns_MI
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Reply by : bet2513   View Profile   Since : 14 Sep 2009 2:43:22 PM Close

 Kumbanadan - "A few in kerala have tried that in the past, but they have miserably failed and  had to leave for "greener pastures" or retract and keep quiet" - this shows the exact attitude and the failure of Kerala brethren. Hope these churches will still have some members left in the coming years if our Lord's coming tarrys.

BTW - could you please explain how did they fail? Did the elders bully them? or did they beat them up black and blue? Or put them down in front of the church? If someone had to leave a church in the name of ornaments the Elders will be held accountable in the presence of God. Our present day elders think highly of themselves, and never even thinks about accountability or responsibilities.

Also "and we still hold it tight" - if wonder if KB.net had an option to put up an opinion poll link on this site. We could randomly see the count of the nimber of "We"'s who hold on to it.

Benoy

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Reply by : paul_thomas   View Profile   Since : 14 Sep 2009 6:47:56 PM Close

Dear 'Kumbanadan',

ornament

Noun
1. anything that adorns someone or something; decoration: the room's only ornament was a dim, oily picture of the Holy Family
2. decorations collectively: he had no watch, nor ornament of any kind
3. a small decorative object: I hit a garden ornament while parking

Do the men in your church wear costly watches? like imported from the Gulf or US? Do they wear belts instead of a rope or a thread to tighten their trousers? Why do you simply beat around the bush when you know time has changed and these days KBs are spending money like it will never finish for house/clothes/car/property/beauty parlours etc... is there a point in jewelery alone now?

What do you mean by "kerala brethren and their teachings " ? is it above the teachings of the Bible, and if you are saying KBs are the only true Christians ever on earth then you are completely WRONG!

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Reply by : believer.bible   View Profile   Since : 15 Sep 2009 12:14:16 AM Close

Well, atleast it is acknowledged that what is being attacked is not scripture but "kerala brethren and their teachings". I think it is a cultural issue. So it seems to be more of a "upholding culture" vs "living within scriptural boundaries" matter. I think we should agree that giving preeminence to KB teachings over scriptural teachings is not profitable for the sake of the Church as a whole depending on different contexts. Same thing happened among the jews when there was no revelation from God for over 400 years - man made rules and writings became mainstream (Apocrypha and Pharasees)

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 27 Sep 2009 5:44:27 AM Close

 

 Dear believer.bible
 
Will you please explain what is “KB teaching over scriptural teaching?
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Reply by : paul_thomas   View Profile   Since : 28 Sep 2009 6:53:00 PM Close

Dear sambudhanoor,

Let me answer this

From a previous posting - 

"If people wants to wear ornaments, let them. But trying to induce this in to the churches in kerala is in vain. A few in kerala have tried that in the past, but they have miserably failed and  had to leave for "greener pastures" or retract and keep quiet."

 

This is one of the KB teaching that is being discussed here -  that a person cannot be a part of the KB local church if they chose to wear ornaments or are already wearing ornaments ( with very few churches as exceptions). They cannot be baptized/break bread or even get married if they wear ornaments

Hope this clears your doubt.

 

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 29 Sep 2009 11:58:14 AM Close

Dear Paul Thomas

 

Wearing of not wearing the jewelry/ornaments is the personal choice as well as the choice of the independent assembly. In kerala most of the assembly members not use the ornaments, whereas in north india and middle eastern countries there are some who uses but not see any difficulties as propagated in this forum by certain individuals.

 

In the NT there is teaching that not worn with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, then it is not over the scriptural teaching.

 

Some of you said that it is a tradition, above the scriptural teaching etc.

 

By the way wearing jewelry/ornaments is from where is it the NT pattern?

What is the purpose behind that, from where it is originate from?

 

Nobody born with additional fitting of jewelry in their body, but after sometime pierces their body and hangs this perishable metal to beautify.

 

Forefathers separation was genuine in their faith and conduct, that was also depend on their biblical conviction.

 

The deplorable factor is that abusing, condemning, calling names to the forefathers separation, it is the hoppy of some in this forum.

 

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 29 Sep 2009 12:39:17 PM Close

 

Dear Sam B
 
'Nobody born with additional fitting of jewelry in their body' - Are they born with glittering sarees or watches on? YOUR logic behooves you to initiate a 'Nudist Brethren' group! See where such logic takes people to?
 
Tom Johns
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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 29 Sep 2009 1:54:28 PM Close

Dear Tomj

Your nudist attitube of name calling does not require a reply.

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Reply by : mithun2   View Profile   Since : 29 Sep 2009 2:19:45 PM Close

Brother Tom J

I am not clear on why you are criticizing so much on Kerala Brethren over the topic of Wearing Ornaments.  Your justification for wearing ornaments comes by giving examples of wearing costly watches and glittering sarees.  Every country and state has certain culture and traditions and the local churches over there follow certain principles.  If wearing ornaments is clearly allowed in BIBLE (i.e if BIBLE says that believers mush wear ornaments) and the local church prohibts it, then it is a cause of concern.  In this case it is not so.  Elders are allowed by the Lord to take few decisions based on the best intrest of the entire members of the church.  If there are few members in the church believes that it is not good to wear ornaments, then the elders need to consider their interest as well.  A tradition and culture followed by a group of people for over 100 years cannot be changed over night. 

There are local churches in Kerala (very similar to KB doctrines) but allows ornaments.  People like TOM J  (i believe he is from one such local church) who wants Kerla brethren to wear ornaments, would better fit in such churches.   No body from Kerala brethren will come and question why you are wearing ornaments.  But dear TOM J, why do you want to make the Kerala brethren follow your principle(i am not using the word Biblical principle here)?

I am staying at North America and goes to a Bible chapel at my local area.  There are few believers allergic to perfumes and the elders have clearly told every one in the chapel to avoid using any perfumes or deodarants or after shaves on sunday morning before coming to the service.  That is the decison of the elders of this local church and the members have to obey it as long as they are part of this chapel.  If they want to use perfumes, they can move to a different chapel which allows it.  But better not make a rift within a local assembly over topics which are not clearly stated in the Bible(like Ornaments, Perfumes). Leave that to the elders. Let them decide wisely.

 

 

 

 

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Reply by : mithun2   View Profile   Since : 29 Sep 2009 2:45:08 PM Close

Dear Benoy(bet2513)

You wrote -- " one thing I really appreciate about my cousins in US, they got to these english chapels, less "kerala brethren" people, good teachers and leaders in the church and so they atleast learn good values and principals in life."

Being in US or Kerala or a metro city doesn't matter much regarding the good values and principles in life.  I was born and brought up at a place in Central travencore, then moved to two metro cities in South India regarding the Job and then visited atleast 3 different countries(US, Gulf ,Japan) or cultural people and churches. From my experiance, I can tell you that Values and principles of life are not learned first at Church.  They are learned first at our HOME.  The local church will definetly help and nourishes them.  

If you think that going to a US chapel will help you learn good values compared to a KB church, i would say you are wrong.    Both the chapels will help you practice and nourishes good values what you first learned at your HOME.

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Reply by : paul_thomas   View Profile   Since : 29 Sep 2009 6:56:11 PM Close

 Dear Mithun,

I am from a KB church and have almost your background and seen different Christian cultures ( Gulf, Korea, Israel, US and India). In US there is very less cultural influence because most of the people are immigrants (except for churches dominated by KB's where there are exceptions)

--> Could you please explain if it is scriptural to deny a believer baptism/ breaking of the bread  who wears ornaments? Do you think its fair to impose this rule especially on new believers????  I have seen elders denying fellowship to a believer/family who were new to a church and from a poor background just in the name of ornaments. But the elder on the other hand was rich and did show the pride of money in his dress/car/house etc. Do you think its fair??? 

--> A marriage was called off in Kerala . The girl (from a catholic background took a bold step to marry only a believer).The girl wanted to wear an ornament ( a pendant), which was gifted by her grandmother.  The KB church would not conduct the marriage. ( what good are we teaching here to the new believer and their family?) What impression and we giving to the outside world?

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Reply by : mithun2   View Profile   Since : 29 Sep 2009 7:17:12 PM Close

Dear brother Paul,

With all humbleness let me tell you that I won't be able to comment on the acts of an elder of any local assembly.   Elders are appointed by the God and we can only pray about them.  Church is the bride of Lord Jesus Christ and elders are accountable before Him. 

I have no knowledge about the scenario you have pointed out, but I believe the church has godly elders and they have denied fellowship based on some reasons which we are not aware of.(It might not be just because of ornaments).  if you have first hand knowledge about this situation, I would recommend you to talk to the elders of the local assembly see what they think.  These incidents/examples , i would say should be handled by the local assembly elders itself.   Just based on these incidents , we cannot  come to a conclusion that ornaments should be allowed in Kerala Brethren churches. 

The local assembly elders have the authority to say, "we won't conduct a marriage". if it is because of the wrong reason, then they are accountable before the Chief Shephared.  

I have heard about one local assembly which will conduct marriage only if the reception is hosted at the chapel's auditorium.  if the groom/bride wishes to condut their wedding at a bigger place, then the assembly wouldn't conduct it.  But again, i would say that is the decision of the elders of the chapel and we are supposed to obey the shpherds.   God will judge the fairness of the acts of an Elder. we just need to pray about them.

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Reply by : paul_thomas   View Profile   Since : 29 Sep 2009 9:03:35 PM Close

 "Just based on these incidents , we cannot  come to a conclusion that ornaments should be allowed in Kerala Brethren churches." - On what basis, are ornaments banned in KB churches?

Answer: We are just holding on to tradition. It has nothing to do with the scripture and we have become a bunch of hypocrites to the onlookers, with no basis for not wearing oraments but still holding on to other worldly riches be it our house/car /other assets/investments (that includes me too).  We are not living upto the actual reason why we call ourselves "verpadukaru".

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Reply by : believer.bible   View Profile   Since : 30 Sep 2009 12:13:34 AM Close

Dear sambudhunoor,

>>Will you please explain what is “KB teaching over scriptural teaching?

It is when traditional or personal opinion over take scriptural guidelines.

Gladly, from my own assembly experiences and other cases I know of, if I may...

1. You are a less holy person if you go to a church where they wear shoes or slippers inside (I think we've had plenty of discussions on this)

2. Denying baptism, fellowship because of jewellery and even wedding ring. No need to mention this.

3. Marriage: Woman must be younger. Logic presented is that since she is younger, therefore she will be submissive. hmmm.

4. My assembly taught that love marriage is a sin. Full stop.

5. Daughter marries unbeliever. Parents are kicked out of assembly.

6. Dowry  - was very common and a given once upon a time even though it was illegal. I know even that some elders were part of the "negotiating" as early as the 90s. Fortunately this is changed a lot after the mid 90s. So I should not bring this up for these times. Nevertheless, it was very much part of our system and marriages were based on dowry to some extent. Too bad we don't this any longer during this economic crisis :-)

7. KB's dislike for interracial marriage (even between Indians): This I believe has slowly changed only recently (maybe the last six to seven years). But then, it was preached at a major conference few years back and attitude is still prevailent. I meet many Christians from other "races" who just don't understand this.

8. This was funny - some elders did not like children eating the bread and wine after the meeting. I wonder why though.... wish I knew the explanation for that.

Overall, jewellary seems to be the biggest issue following by marriage related stuff. These two can split assemblies.

Regards,

 

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Sep 2009 12:37:43 PM Close

Dear Paul Thomas,

You wrote about a Roman Catholic girl wearing a pendent and because of that her marriage was called-off.   I am not familiar with that incident.  Therefore, I ask the following.  Since it was a pendent from her grandmother, was there an image hanging on it?  One example is a crucifix.  If there was a crucifix, then there is all the justifications for its removal.  Hanging a crucifix is different from preaching the Christ crucified.  If it was some other image, what was it?  There is significance to the image we carry around our neck for others to see.

I hope that I made my point clear.  When there is an image, this becomes a doctrinal issue.  It depends on the image and not on the pendent..

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : kingofskies   View Profile   Since : 30 Sep 2009 1:02:42 PM Close

Can anyone explain why a person has to wear oraments?

What is the perpose of wearing it?

Is it useful in any way?

does wearing it return any good?

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 30 Sep 2009 1:56:13 PM Close

To those asking the purpose of wearing Jewelry ----

I wear a simple 10 kt. gold ring as a sign of being married to my wife. In the society I live in if I don't have a ring it is an utter disregard for my state as being married. It is not a symbol of piety not having a ring. It could be misinterpreted that she and I are separated or going through a divorce.

I like my wife to wear a simple necklace or a bracelet while going out. That is my preference to see her dressed up for certain occasion. Bible speaks of brides being adorned with special clothings and Jewelry. I consider her as my 'bride' and that is the way I, as her husband likes. On what basis a church can deny fellowship with Christ's redeemed? When they do, they are violating scriptural mandates. I am speaking out because you are 'tying a millstone' upon the little ones.

If someone does not want to wear Jewelry fell free not to. Do not flaunt your Jewelry or your Jewelry-lessness in front of God's people. Both are equally wrong.

Why is TOMJ so concerned about this?

If you like to see a scriptural answer please read Col 2:21 "Do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 'do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!', in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?"

I speak out against these 'commandments of men.' I passionately speak out because I like to see inward separation in action rather than the Pharisaical outward separation. The outward separation will make the young believers, who I care a lot about, follow the same path as my generation of believers did - most of us wanted to look good outwardly rather than being genuine and sincere. I was [am] no exception.

Some of you do not like me because I am teaching against these decrees that you issue and I question your umbilical commandments. You don't have an ounce of scripture [upon proper scrutiny] to establish your commandments.

Tom Johns _MI

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Reply by : kingofskies   View Profile   Since : 30 Sep 2009 2:17:14 PM Close

 dear Tom Johns _MI,

can you explain what you meant by

"I am speaking out because you are 'tying a millstone' upon the little ones."

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Reply by : paul_thomas   View Profile   Since : 30 Sep 2009 3:11:49 PM Close

 Dear GPK,

It was a pearl necklace and not a pendant. I just got that confirmed. It was a gift and it had no images.

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Reply by : kingofskies   View Profile   Since : 30 Sep 2009 3:18:10 PM Close

 dear Tom Johns _MI,

plz donot misunderstand me.

i am a person who is trying to find out the truth behind this.

and i am not satisfied till now. so i have made these posts.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 30 Sep 2009 3:54:15 PM Close

Dear kingofskies,

My reference to the millstone is a reference to the following passage --

Matt 18:6 [For the sake of context I will quote the 1st 6 verses.

"1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3 and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.

6 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

When we consider these things that are happening in the name of Jewelry, we realize that the Lord is addressing similar issues. Our Lord does not have any kind words for them. Those who are making fun of what I wrote [some appears to be so], please be aware that I am addressing a spiritual issue here.  I am warning those who are chocking the life out of those new believers that the Lord has nothing good to say to you.

Tom Johns _ MI

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Sep 2009 3:59:46 PM Close

Dear brother Paul Thomas,

Thank you for the information.  If it was just a necklace (pearl, gold, or any other) without any image, I do not see any reason for its removal.

The merchant sold all that he had and bought the pearl of great value (Matthew 13:45-46).

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 30 Sep 2009 4:38:06 PM Close

Dear Mithun2,

You wrote - "I am not clear on why you are criticizing so much on Kerala Brethren over the topic of Wearing Ornaments.  Your justification for wearing ornaments comes by giving examples of wearing costly watches and glittering sarees."  If you have read many of my past writings you would not have come to this conclusion.

Please read the posting I made earlier [just above George P Koshy's posting.] You have to recognize the spiritual blindness in these people and realize the extend of damage they cause in the name of Jewelry and external conformities.

Tom Johns - MI

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Reply by : kingofskies   View Profile   Since : 30 Sep 2009 4:47:26 PM Close

dear Tom Johns _ MI,

i do agree with you for the case of new belivers.

but wont it be a little more better if we the existing belivers show them to live a more simpler life.

i am not talking only about jewelry, i am talking about the overall life of a beliver.

i just feel that the life today is becoming to complicated and many belivers are going along with the waves of this world.

its just that i am feeling that many of use are moving away from the true love of christ and going more into the world.

i have come to this conclution after seeing a lot of things.

 

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Reply by : kingofskies   View Profile   Since : 30 Sep 2009 4:49:59 PM Close

 i just feel that having a more simpler life having christ as the center of life will lead to a better and peaceful life that the world cant give.

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 2 Oct 2009 10:41:33 AM Close

 

Dear believer.bible

 

I doubt some exaggeration in your writing. Most of the points you have raised is to be dealt with the local assembly, where you are or were in fellowship with, these are not common everywhere. Most of these are related to practical Christian life which is not a common thing. When say KB, there are 700 or more assemblies in Kerala as well same pattern assemblies in other states as well as in foreign countries.

 

As far as the chappal is concerned I could remember believers using chappal in the convention pandal where the worship service is going on. Whereas in building for the hygienic reason they themselves keep outside, this is not because the assembly is taught.

 

About baptism it is the choice of the independent assembly, it is not common everywhere.   Discouragement of usage of ornaments, as well as ornamentation, costlier dresses etc. is the teaching of the bible.

 

About marriage, there is instruction in the scripture do not yoke with unbelievers, that does not mean the parents need to be expelled, the incident which you said need to be evaluated separately. I know a family whose daughter went for employment in a foreign country where she fell in love with a muslim and married but the parents are still in our fellowship. How the assembly insist the bride should be young, where is the limit, are they suggested age limit?. It is purely the decision of the groom and the parents.

 

As far as dowry is concerned nowadays nobody don’t know who take and give, this is become secret, you and me need to be careful in this matter, Government is banned this system.

 

As far as interracial marriage is concerned, if it is between 2 believers I do not think any rule is there against it. There are families who married to tamil, maharashtrians etc.

 

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Reply by : paul_thomas   View Profile   Since : 2 Oct 2009 1:27:27 PM Close

<QUOTE>When say KB, there are 700 or more assemblies in Kerala as well same pattern assemblies in other states as well as in foreign countries.<QUOTE>

Is this pattern based on the scripture of the man made decisions of the elders based on tradition?

<QUOTE>About baptism it is the choice of the independent assembly, it is not common everywhere.   Discouragement of usage of ornaments, as well as ornamentation, costlier dresses etc. is the teaching of the bible.<QUOTE>

This is were KB fails. The 1st example of baptism in Acts was not done by a local assembly and the elders should not impose tradition over the directions we see in the Bible. You do not see anywhere in the Bible where a person is asked to remove ornaments/not wear ornaments to be baptized/ or to get married? This is imposed by the KB churches WHICH is a man made decision based on TRADITION and not the SCRIPTURE.

It is easy to make a statement that - "This is a decision of the local assembly" - but that does change the fact that tradition is given more importance than scripture in the so called "KB PATTERN". 

I completely agree to your second statement  <Quote>Discouragement of usage of ornaments, as well as ornamentation, costlier dresses etc. is the teaching of the bible.<Quote>

 

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Reply by : wilson609   View Profile   Since : 4 Oct 2009 5:07:57 AM Close

this subject of ornaments has certainly stirred once again activity on the forum,which otherwise was not being frequently visited by many able contributors and its interesting to note the for and against postings.i felt  the urge to present my view on the subject.i wish to confess  that i am just an ordinary believer.i am neither a full time preacher nor a scholor, hence i submit myself for correction from my beloved learned brethren on the forum.

with all due repect and regard to our forefathers in kerala, i feel  they like the early church(who sold everything  to create a common resoucrce from where all could be given help according to the need ) were driven by their initial enthusiasm to shed the ornaments and impose the same on others and to look down upon others who did not do so.i say this since i have'nt found a clear , direct, positive,  command just as the command to observe theLord's table"This do ye in rememberance of me" to shed ornaments.coming to my own experience, once a brother asked me to help sell his ring as he was facing a finacial crisis.when i approached our bank's appraiser i was told that a sizable amount of manufacturing or making charges would be deducted,which the brother could not afford.as an alternative to help the brother i pledged the ring against my name and handed over the market value to that brother and later every month the instalments were deducted form my salary and finally the ring was handed over to me,which i am still wearing it. wearing this has not altered my spiritualily, but i remember an amusing incident.i visited a north indian assembly,where the serving evangelist was from my antive village in kerala.saturday evening the  evangelist with great hesitation came to me and infomed me that with my ring on i will not be able to take part from the table and also it would offend some in the assembly" i said if my ring offends my fellow brother i am ready to remove and removed on the spot and sunday evening as i left the town i wore the ring.i don't feel gulity about wearing it nor i feel guilty about romviong it for a few hours to satisfy my brothrer .

my maternal uncle serving in the Indian army during the fifties, used to enter a barbershop near punalur railway station  and  get his moustache removed first ,since those days people with moustache were not allowed to take part from the table i heard and were treated as rebels.now where is the direct ,positive command not t o sport a moustache ?       

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 5 Oct 2009 5:56:58 AM Close

Dear paul_thomas

 

Are you understand what I wrote, it is very clearly explained that practices are not common everywhere, that means the PATTERN I WROTE IS “DOCTRINAL PATTERN”. Other practices vary from place to place.

 

If the Word of God tells that “not with” and if someone practices that, it come under tradition, what tradition you are following.

 

How do I know what pattern of practices are going in 700 or more assemblies.

 

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Reply by : paul_thomas   View Profile   Since : 5 Oct 2009 2:12:03 PM Close

 So not allowing members of the church to wear ornaments - is that a doctrinal patter? This is one of the traits of the pattern we see in the KB churches.

There are more than 700 churches around the world apart from KB churches, who follow doctrinal patterns.  You think they will be the last in line at heaven's door because they wear ornaments - and God will specially reward all the KB's who don't wear ornaments?

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 6 Oct 2009 6:24:48 AM Close

What are the fundamental doctrines, some are as follows:

 

1.          Only One God

2.         God is a Trinity

3.         Bible is the inspired Word of God.

4.         Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

5.         Creator of this Universe, Human race and all that exists.

6.         Man, (human being) are fallen creature by the sin of Adam and redemption is only through Jesus Christ.

7.         Jesus Christ is the only Mediator and the way to God the Father.

8.         Salvation is Eternal; it is a free gift, by the Grace of God.

9.         Believers' baptism as per our Lord’s ordinance.

 

Most of the assemblies known as brethren follow these fundamental pattern of doctrines.

 

Do you have the information that kb will be rewarded specially and others are the least or vice versa.

 

 

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Reply by : thomas1974   View Profile   Since : 6 Oct 2009 9:17:07 AM Close

hey maybe we should not wear anything that way the white vs striped,jewellery vs no jewellery arguments will be laid to rest ....and we can move on to a more meaningful christain life

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Reply by : beracah   View Profile   Since : 6 Oct 2009 10:45:46 AM Close

This is my view:

The so called separation, seen today, through abstinence is an expression of hatred towards fellow human beings and there is no love for God or obedience to HIM in it, as I see it. By all these the “separated” are attempting to tell God how holy they are. The Lord Jesus Christ was not like separated brethren, in this matter of abstinence, when He was here.

In the place where I work, I have to follow a dress code and it applies to all irrespective of their religious affiliations. I attend church meetings, always, in the same dress I wear in my work place. I eat the same food sitting with non-brethren from the same eatery. No separation. It is the same watch, same spectacle, same hairdo, same perfume, same moustache and beard on weekdays and Sundays for me. On special occasions, I too dress up like my non-separated, non-brethren friends. No difference. I will be continuing like this in future also and I have the Lord’s approval for all these.

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 6 Oct 2009 9:54:00 PM Close

 

When believers are given to "moderate wine" we see "poems" such as the one we see above.

Lord give us your wisdom to distinguish good and evil

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Reply by : paul_thomas   View Profile   Since : 7 Oct 2009 3:12:14 PM Close

 Please explain the latter part of your statement "Wearing of not wearing the jewelry/ornaments is the personal choice as well as the choice of the independent assembly".

 

1) How can this be a choice of the independent assembly. Does the scripture give the assembly the right to impose this rule on the members??

2) Is this also a KB pattern?

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Reply by : mithun2   View Profile   Since : 7 Oct 2009 4:15:03 PM Close

Dear Brother Paul

1) How can this be a choice of the independent assembly. Does the scripture give the assembly the right to impose this rule on the members??

Elders are given the required authority to impose certain restrictions on the matters that are not clearly mentioned in the Bible.They will decide these matters wisely and prayerfully considering every members of that assembly.  I have pointed out examples regarding the restrictions for the usage of perfumes , lipsticks on certain local assemblies in North America. 

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Reply by : sku1   View Profile   Since : 8 Oct 2009 6:05:03 AM Close

EXCESSIVE WEARING OF ORNAMENTS AND FORCED PROHIBITION OF ORNAMENTS ARE UNSCRIPTURAL. BELIEVER MUST HAVE TO SHOW CHRISTIAN TESTIMONY TO OUR SOCIETY AS WELL AS TO GOD.

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Reply by : helpmate4s   View Profile   Since : 8 Oct 2009 11:40:29 AM Close

I have been closely following the discussion, and for once  there is a sensible  answer to the issue. An answer that any one can understand and  put in practice  instead of the usuall " splitting of hairs" over greek word and its equivalent in english. We are to be a witness to the society we live in, and not put a stumbling block for others. The less we focus on this  the better, and use our talents gifts and ability to further the Gospel.

Personally a big thanks to the brothers reply on the subject.

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Reply by : paul_thomas   View Profile   Since : 9 Oct 2009 2:53:34 PM Close

sku1,

I completely agree with you.. and many of our brethren are yet to open their eyes and understand the statement you have made.

Dear mithun2,

Your comparison relates to an incident that happened on an aircraft, as a courtesy,peanuts were banned in the fight since someone was allergic to it. Are you comparing the same with the 700+ KB assemblies in kerala and outside.

 

The decision of the chapel you mentioned is a good example how other believers should be ready to adjust for the cause of another believer. At my chapel in NA I have seen other very good practices set by the elders right from youngsters parking their car on the road and walk a bit to the church so that the older members get parking spots near the church. Would you not open and hold the door for a lady/older person next to you? Do you need to be told by the elders about that too?

 

Bible does talk a lot about ornaments in the old testament and new testament, so please do not conclude that this is an unclear subject. Ornaments were being used (and thats why it is pointed out by Paul), and the Bible directs us about its usage and it's priorities in life, but doesn't tell not to stop wearing ornaments.

 

Moreover what is being discussed is the hype created by the KB on the subject of ornaments, when on the other hand none of the elders put a rule on how lavish people spend money on other accessories we dress up with. We shouldn't be just biased and pick on ornaments alone. This is a common KB church pattern and hence being discussed and not an issue with just a single KB church.

 

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Reply by : mithun2   View Profile   Since : 13 Oct 2009 7:11:40 PM Close

Dear Brother Paul,

I do not disagree with you on the statement  "Bible directs us about its usage and it's priorities in life, but doesn't tell not to stop wearing ornaments ".

I also want to mention that at the same time Bible also doesn't instructs us to wear ornaments.  And that's why I was saying that it is upto the decision of elders of each local assembly. it could be 700 or 800 assemblies which doesn't matter, but it is the decision of individual churches. 

The hype is not created by the Kerala Brethren but it is from the so called 'local church' followers.  if some one wants to wear ornaments, feel free to do so and be in fellowship with a local church that allows it. 

You have mentioned about the ban of Peanuts in a airplane, but I want to give the example of hotels that has 'Smoking room' and 'Non smoking room'.  People who want to smoke, let them take Smoking room, and those who don't want let them take 'Non smoking room. if Smoking is banned by law of the land, then we can question about the people who take Smoking room and also question the hotel authorities.Until unless it is banned, we can only advise them and it is upto the decision of each individual.

There are certain public transportaion means on which smoking is prohibited, but at the same time there are transportation means on which no restriction is made.  People who don't want to be around smokers, can take the other transportation means.  And again it is upto the individual.

Recently there are few 'non brethren' individuals in this forum writes against some of the common patterns/practices that KeralaBrethen follows. From reading their post/poems, I think their motive is not to edify the youger generation, but to cause confusion among the children and attract the younger ones to the so called 'local church' group.  

" None of the elders put a rule on how lavish people spend money on other accessories we dress up with" - From my experiance, I know elders & believers of local assemblies who lives modest and simple lives and also advices people to do the same. Let us not generalise this with every one. I also know certain believers who wear ornaments, but not on Sundays.Also I know certain believers who smoke and says Bible doesn't restrict that explicitly. But isn't it better to have us submit all these individual believers in the hands of Lord and let Him judge/reward them accordnigly.

Let us humble ourselves before the mighty one and be faithful in His work.

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Reply by : kumbanadan   View Profile   Since : 14 Oct 2009 3:00:51 AM Close

Dear mithun2

You have said it rightly. Atleast a few people who argue for ornaments as a must in this forum belong to local church and they are not brethren. Some of them have a brethren ancestry, but due to the great enthusiasome for ornaments by the latter generation, they have migrated to local church and other denominations.

 

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Reply by : paul_thomas   View Profile   Since : 14 Oct 2009 8:40:26 PM Close

 Dear Mithun2,

**********************************************************************************************

 

First of all - <Quote> I also want to mention that at the same time Bible also doesn't instructs us to wear ornaments <Quote>

 

 

 

The reason why Paul/Peter speaks about Ornaments -> is because it was being used, and he ( the word of God, inspired by the Holy spirit, written by Paul and Peter) does not instruct, not to wear ornaments. Since it was being used hence the guidance and instruction that it should not take priority in life.

 

 

1 Pet 3:3-5 -> It does instructs wives on the proper usage of Jewelery.

 

Paul writes to Timothy on how women needs to give more importance to Good works, and not spending more time on their outward appearance (this includes jewelery and apparel too).

 

So the Bible does instruct us on the usage of Jewelery.

**************************************************************************************************************************

<Quote> it is upto the decision of elders of each local assembly <Quote>

I agree that the elder of a church is a decision maker too. But his decisions has to be based on the scripture, reasonable and for a cause. Since it is evident that Jewelery was used and Paul and Peter was speaks in that context on how it should be used - doesn't give the authority to the elder/elders of a Church to come up with a doctrine (A member of a KB church cannot wear jewelery) based on patterns and traditions that were being followed.

Read what Kumbanadan had to say - "A few in kerala have tried that in the past, but they have miserably failed and  had to leave for "greener pastures" or retract and keep quiet".

And you have shown the same attitude  - "if some one wants to wear ornaments, feel free to do so and be in fellowship with a local church that allows it. "

Your statement implies ornaments are not allowed in KB churches. Are you basing this on scripture?

This is exactly what is happening in KB churches. What is being imposed here? Is it based on the doctrine? If so could you give me scriptural references or examples in the NT where a church was asked to stop wearing Jewelery?

Not wearing jewelery should be more voluntary on the part of the individual to give more priority to good works than Jewelery, as instructed by Paul and Peter. This is how KB churches formed the pattern, it was a decision of each individual and not imposed by the elders.. Even though Paul specifically talks about women in Timothy's church, this is applicable to men as well. The problem in Timothy's church was with women in the church, so Paul specifically addresses the issue and addresses the women at the church.

So the choice of what a person wears (apparel or jewelery) is not an elder's decision (to ban an individual from a church fellowship if he/she wears jewelery), rather its should be an individual's decision. Else the Holy Spirit would have inspired Paul and Peter to directed this issue to the elders of the church and specifically mentioned - Jewelery is prohibited in churches.

************************************************************************************************************************

<Quote> But isn't it better to have us submit all these individual believers in the hands of Lord and let Him judge/reward them accordnigly <Quote>

You said it right here. Let the Lord decided and judge/reward a person, on his deeds. Whether it be jewelery/apparel/money/time and talents. Why do we create a doctrine out of a pattern and misguide our generation. Let each individual decide what they want.

When a believer's child in school is being asked by his friend- "Why doesn't your mom wear jewelery", let not the answer be "Our church does not allow us to wear jewelery". Hope you got my point

************************************************************************************************************************

I have my roots in a KB church, and in no way involved with a "local church".

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Reply by : paul_thomas   View Profile   Since : 14 Oct 2009 9:09:19 PM Close

 Kumbanadan,

I was wondering where you disappeared for a while. I don't see anyone here saying "ornaments as a must". Are your arguments based on this assumption ? You have not answered couple of my questions yet?

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Reply by : kumbanadan   View Profile   Since : 15 Oct 2009 3:33:20 AM Close

 Paul_thomas, I was away for a while

You wrote on 14th sep

<<Do the men in your church wear costly watches? like imported from the Gulf or US? Do they wear belts instead of a rope or a thread to tighten their trousers? Why do you simply beat around the bush when you know time has changed and these days KBs are spending money like it will never finish for house/clothes/car/property/beauty parlours etc... is there a point in jewelery alone now?

What do you mean by "kerala brethren and their teachings " ? is it above the teachings of the Bible, and if you are saying KBs are the only true Christians ever on earth then you are completely WRONG!>>

Yes, not only men, but women too wear watches to know time. yes we use belt else trousers will fall down and our nakedness will be revealed. But without ornaments nothing will happen. 
Can you tell me of any other group which follow scripture better  than kerala brethren?  In that case I  will join them after examining their teaching.

Kerala brethren are happy without ornaments and trying to impose it through these bulletin boards wont work

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Reply by : bobtitus   View Profile   Since : 15 Oct 2009 1:53:18 PM Close

 I have been reading this thread for a while.To the last point you have made I have to disagree.

Dear Brother, I admire the pride you take to be called a Kerala Brethren.Yes Kerala Brethren teachings and preachings are scriptural I agree with you.

But it is wrong on your part to think that there are no other gatherings that follow scripture like Kerala brethren churches do. 

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Reply by : paul_thomas   View Profile   Since : 15 Oct 2009 3:19:34 PM Close

 Kumbanadan,

Thanks for letting me know what a watch is used for and how the belt holds the trousers from falling down.

This shows your attitude not to admit the traditions you have imposed in the KB churches over scripture. Lets not get to other groups. You yourselves are not following the scripture.  You may be teaching what Paul and Peter preached, but in practice you are not. You or ok with glittering watches and costly dresses and fancy cars and costly houses, but still cling on to the tradition of not wearing ornaments.

If you can give me scriptural reference for your stand on ornaments where the church members are forced not to wear jewelery of any kind, I will agree with you. Like you said, you follow the scripture, so show me from scripture the basis for imposing this doctrine on your church members. 

If you do not have scriptural backing - then lets not go and find another group that follows scripture better the Kerala brethren, even though there are many around the world.

From your previous comment "A few in kerala have tried that in the past, but they have miserably failed and  had to leave for "greener pastures" or retract and keep quiet".

Just FYI - There are KB churches in kerala where believers, especially new believers do wear ornaments and take part in the Lords Table. So please don't generalize.

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Reply by : kumbanadan   View Profile   Since : 15 Oct 2009 5:08:22 PM Close

bobtitus, Why dont you name the group? I want to know.

Paul_thomas,
In this forum, you will find justifications for everything, not only ornaments, there are misplaced scripture verses to quote too:-
- love & premarital sex
-divorce & remarriage (adultery) 
-alcoholism
-Women dressig men's dress
- women preaching
-Children's punishment


If one closely analyze, those who argue are blinded by western culture & materialism

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Reply by : paul_thomas   View Profile   Since : 15 Oct 2009 6:52:33 PM Close

You are not answering my question. I asked you for scriptural backing for the doctrine you believe is right, and that you try to impose in your church, as a kerala brethren teaching.

If you can let me know, else there is no need to point fingers on the other baseless arguments that is happening on this forum. I am not trying to justify something here. I am asking you to justify your statement, based on the scripture which you believe is followed absolutely to the core by the Kerala Brethren churches.

Why do you fail to substantiate your statement based on the scripture? You claim - "Can you tell me of any other group which follow scripture better  than kerala brethren?"

And you practice this, if someone wears ornaments in your church:  "A few in kerala have tried that in the past, but they have miserably failed and  had to leave for "greener pastures" or retract and keep quiet".

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Reply by : kumbanadan   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2009 3:18:32 AM Close

paul_thomas
I  stand by what i said, all those who tried to bring false teachings among Kerala Brethren have miserably failed, time proved that. Ornaments are idolatory.  Read Ex 33:1-6. i go by  the simple meaning of what is written there. 
By the same reason, no one wears ornaments in our church, as simple as that, ornamentalists have other places to go too, why trouble us.
 

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Reply by : paul_thomas   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2009 6:28:00 PM Close

I am not trying bring back the concept of jewelery, nor am I advocating that people in the brethren church should start wearing jewelery. But creating and promoting a false doctrine in the church is wrong... and I think you never read anything about jewelery and the people of Israel past Ex 33. You see references of the women of Israel wearing ornaments after Ex 33, Kings, Chr, Job, Isa.  and Jeremiah too..

Read on:

Jer. 2:30 "In vain I punished your people; they did not respond to correction. Your sword has devoured your prophets like a ravening lion. 31"You of this generation, consider the word of the LORD: "Have I been a desert to Israel or a land of great darkness? Why do my people say, `We are free to roam; we will come to you no more'? 32Does a maiden forget her jewelry, a bride her wedding ornaments? Yet my people have forgotten me, days without number.

Sorry to say brother, but the people of Israel did start wearing jewelery after this incident. So did all the Kings use jewelery , ornaments and precious stones.

You know your stand is wrong just based on the verse you have quoted, and this is how most of the cult groups interpret the Bible and form their own groups. But the for the sake of argument you can hold on to it. I have nothing more to say but God will not spare those who teach false doctrine.

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Reply by : thompson   View Profile   Since : 17 Oct 2009 12:12:44 AM Close

 
Some hero keeps this topic burning always with the introduction from a person with an agenda to spoil the minds of those, who have separated with a cause.  Why don't they get away to places, where they can wear jewelry from the top of their head to the toes.  Their ladies wear jewelry; hence they want to support them. 

This hero quotes a verse from the Bible without knowing the context, why that verse is there at that place. Read on hero:

These verses

Isaiah 3:18-25  "In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon, The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers, The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings, The rings, and nose jewels, The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins, The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails. And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty. Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war"

Those verses are directly connected to the verse quoted.
 

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Reply by : bet2513   View Profile   Since : 19 Oct 2009 5:10:37 PM Close

Thompson,

Dont try to be a hero! and your sarcasm is not appreciated by anyone on this forum.

You admit it - <spoil the minds of those, who have separated with a cause>. 

You speak no different than a Roman catholic who is reluctant to hear the truth cos the priest has told so. You know from the bottom of your heart, it is tradition you are clinging on to with no reference from the bible to set such a pattern in the church and not allowing people wearing ornaments to have fellowship in a KB church.

Have it your way, no one has complaints but don't state rubbish stating the pattern is based on the Bible.

Our forefathers did it for a cause, but people do it these days not for any cause and are hypocrites!

Kumbanadan has quoted Ex 33 which is to do with how the people of Israel decided to mourn for their sins and how God is directs them to do so. Not good enough to set a KB church pattern !

 

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Reply by : paul_thomas   View Profile   Since : 19 Oct 2009 7:53:06 PM Close

bet2513,

You said it right. The act of removing the ornaments by the people of Israel that we see in Exodus was an act of mourning. It was not a direction by God to stop using ornaments and this has been mis-quoted by "kumbanadan" here.

Thompson -  I am sorry that your mind is being spoiled, but just ignore this posting if this is troubling your conscience, and I appreciate the cross reference you posted. There are other verses too after Exodus which I have not quoted here, where the people of Israel wore ornaments, jewelery, gold, silver, costly apparel etc. I was just pointing the fact that Bro. kumbanadan still does not have a proper scriptural reference to back up his Orthodox doctrinal stand regarding Jewelery in KB churches and its consequences if someone dares to start wearing jewelery:

"A few in kerala have tried that in the past, but they have miserably failed and  had to leave for "greener pastures" or retract and keep quiet".

Quoting this out-of context verse from Exodus has not explained his stand of jewelery enforced in KB church pattern (atleast his church). Like I said before I know KB churches (in kerala) were jewelery has never been an issue to break bread together.

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Reply by : thampi   View Profile   Since : 17 Dec 2009 8:16:16 PM Close

So Shane, what do you think finally since you started this thread? From what  I read I think ornaments are better than costly glittering sarees.  What do you say?

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Reply by : iype123   View Profile   Since : 28 Dec 2009 12:55:05 PM Close

I belong to the Marthomite church and I would like to comment as did many others but  from a different angle. I am a born again beleiver and have been looking for a Bible believing church in Kerala. The Brethren and Baptists Churches in Kerala ,I beleive, come closer to the real Christianity and I wanted to join one of them. But the problem is, there is no Baptist Church around and the  Brethren assembly  demands removal of ornaments which I and my wife cannot accept. This is not because we love gold or worldly things more than our Lord but because we are not willing to follow an unnecessary man made command - which brings all kinds of burden on a beleiver who lives in a multicultural conservative society . It  can be clearly understood from the Bible that man made rules and regulations take the true spirituality to another level ,that of religiosity ,where beleivers start to please men (or community or group) and be satisfied with the ritualistic observations. Legalism results from  man made do's and dont's and it hinders spiritual growth. It doesn't allow a believer to grow unto the head-Christ. 

Acts 15:28 says "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necssary things that ye abstain from meats offered to idols and from blood and things strangled  from fornication ...."   Apostles didn't want to put any burden on believers by putting them under some old testament abstinences. But here in Kerala, what happens is, beleivers are instructed to follow some laws which came out of some  good intentions of the leaders. Good intentions should not be allowed to be part of the law for a beleiver if those laws put burden on a beleiver. If we study closely we can see that the pharisaical laws were the results of their good intentions and Jesus rebuked them  for their "righteousness". Spiritually speaking ,laws resulting from good intentions will only do more harm than good as  they  divert us from depending on God's amazing grace. Humans tend to observe laws to please God than to depend on His grace which removes all sins.

Some one has asked in this thread the following.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 "Can anyone explain why a person has to wear oraments? What is the purpose of wearing it? Is it useful in any way? Does wearing it return any good?" .

Without being judgemental, let me say that such questions rise from the comfort of being under the slavery of self made bondage. It's just a human psychology. Christ has given us freedom-including freedom from all vain observations. As said earlier , this traditional law creates leaglism which hinders spiritual growth. Wearing ornament (in the proper way) is perfectly normal as it decorates a person (just as a good dress for the right occassion - and it also decorates a person) for which one can see any number of references in the Bible. Or ,Wearing ornaments really do some good ( for the same reason wearing ornaments is portrayed in the Scripture) and not any harm (I repeat,when it's done properly) ; but when it's not done, under compulsion or even willingly,it could create all kinds of unnecessary trouble and pain from around which God doesn't want to happen (Acts 15:28).

Growth should be part of any believer or church. It's not truly Christian to be shackled by some old ritual or tradition for which there is no  scripture  to back it up. We should always be transformed by the renwing of our MIND(Rom.12.2). Detaching ourselves from our good intentions and to move closer to Christ is the sign of real spiritual growth.

Hope someone will be called to make the church grow by the 'renewing of the mind' in this area. May God bless you.

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Reply by : josefeb15   View Profile   Since : 28 Dec 2009 1:08:17 PM Close

"For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment, and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say, "You sit here in a good place," and you say to the poor man, "You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool," ( James 2: 2,3)

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Reply by : paul_thomas   View Profile   Since : 28 Dec 2009 2:39:23 PM Close

Dear iype123,

Your you just said the plain truth, which many believers on this forum cannot see. I am not sure which part of Kerala you are based out of, but I hope you find the right Church. There are many Brethren churches in Kerala that do not have an issue with Ornaments especially in the cities.

 

 

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Reply by : tom_s   View Profile   Since : 28 Dec 2009 4:03:06 PM Close

 iype123,

Thank God for your testimony. As paul_thomas  said there are several Churches that follow New Testament pattern and not the rituals/traditions as some of the KB folks trying to dictate here. They think they are helping God by keeping their rituals/traditions above the Word of God. May God bless you and help to find the right Church.

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Reply by : tom_s   View Profile   Since : 28 Dec 2009 4:07:11 PM Close

thampi  

You said on 17 Dec 2009 8:16:16 PM "From what  I read I think ornaments are better than costly glittering sarees." Is there any reason for your thinking? Or am I unable to understand what you are trying to communicate. I do disagree with this statement. I do not see a Scriptural reason that one is better than the other.

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Reply by : samuel.v.j   View Profile   Since : 29 Dec 2009 7:43:51 AM Close

 

Dear Brethren in Christ,

Let the old year end up with a century mark for this discussion

1 Timothy 2

 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; (Agreed)

 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. (Agreed)

 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (Agreed)

 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (Agreed)

 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (Agreed)

 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (Agreed)

 7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.(Agreed)

 8I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. (Agreed)

 9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;  10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. (Disagree)

 11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. (Agree to some extent)

 12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (Agree to some extent)

 13For Adam was first formed, then Eve. (Nowadays we have a doubt but still Agree)

 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. ( Women dont admit , but still everyone has to agree)

 15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (It is a fate is what women  think nowadays , but still it is agreed)

Just for a smile, not for responses, already we have lots of yes and noes in this thread. No one should be deprived of Baptism and Lords table due to the above reason of the thread , but what should be our priorities as per the scriptures each one should be well aware and lead a spiritual life is what God expects from each one of us.

Wishing you all a prosperous and a Blessed new year

 

Yours in Christ

Sam

 

 

 

 

 

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Reply by : monnie12   View Profile   Since : 29 Dec 2009 7:04:08 PM Close

I went through some of the comments in this thread and  wonder why some cannot see the truth in the Word and yield to it.

The first generation Brethrens in Kerala started this tradition of not wearing ornaments  with a purpose. As a sign of their zeal and commitment  based on their knowledge of the scripture  and also  as a sign for others and as an identity for their community.

But the other generations made it a law and forced this law on their people and now it has become an integral part of their belief system. As the times have changed the above mentioned reasons also have become meaningless.

Were the forefathers right Scripturally?. Sadly,NO. There is not a single verse to prove that ornament is forbiden for Christians.

1Timothy 2:9 is the most quoted verse. Actually this verse doesn't forbid women wearing ornaments. The emphasis is not on wearing ornaments or gold but  it's about how a Christain woman should behave and about her priorities. It's not a verse prohibiting gold or ornaments. Yes,a person with preconceived ideas can read many things into it. If the verse is about  gold and pearl what about other materials women use these days for ornaments?

What about costly dress? Does the KB church which insist against gold ask their brethren  not to wear costly dress?.

This verse is about women , what about men?. What verse prohibits men from wearing gold? Please don't make up verses to fit to your tradition.

If wearing gold is wrong what about other believers outside Kerala who wear ornaments of all kinds? .Remember more than 95% of all believers - in USA,Britain,Australia,Singapore,Germany,Korea.........eveywhere..........................................wear ornaments.  KB are better than all others?.  Don't forget that Brethern movement itself was introduced here and the Word was originally  taught here by others from the Western world where there is no prohibition of gold or ornamants.  KB church cannot escape from answering this.

As iype12 has commented it's a burden on believers with no spiritual benefit whatsoever. It creates  a false sense of spirituality  and  a "holier than thou"  attitude.  And above all,  it denies many an opportunity to grow in Christ by joining the church.

See James 2:2(someone has already quoted this verse). "Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in.....".  It clearly shows there was no issue with  wearing gold in the early churches.

There are many verses which can be used to prove that there was not  any issue with wearing ornamants in the early church . Not only that there are even approvals for wearing gold or ornamants.

Some one asked "Can anyone explain why a person has to wear oraments? What is the purpose of wearing it? Is it useful in any way? Does wearing it return any good?" .He is clearly against Christians wearing ornaments. Please remember it's only normal everywhere for women to wear ornaments and as mentioned earlier more than 95% of the beleievers (outside) Kerala wear ornaments. Biblical women also wore ornamants.  So, women without wearing  ornamants is uncommon.

So the real question from a truth seeker's heart should be about  an uncommon situation which has no Biblical backing. And they should be like  -

 "Can any one expalin why a person NOT to wear ornamants?"

"What is the purpose of NOT wearing it?"

"Is it  (NOT wearing) useful in any way?"

"Does NOT wearing it return any good?"

Tragically in this thread many have quoted verses out of context to 'establish'  their tradition.They put their meaning into those verses. Before doing so they should be willing to listen to the world renowned teachers and learn from them. Don't assume we know better than them all.

Here I am not trying to say that wearing gold or anything is important but I am trying to say that NOT wearing it is not going to make anyone spiritual or holier or biblical. In addition ,it's an unnecessary  heavy burden placed on believers by tradition made by mere human beings.

 

 

 

 

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Reply by : beracah   View Profile   Since : 30 Dec 2009 3:50:17 AM Close

Thank you brothers, iype and monnie.

See the weak, worthless supports on which some build their edifice!!! 

The influence of unscriptural tradition is amazing among all groups of Christians.

None can help such and they will never see God’s TRUTH as it is.

Wishing you all a “Wonderful New Year 2010”,

PTV

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Reply by : thampi   View Profile   Since : 30 Dec 2009 10:16:53 PM Close

tom_s,

Sorry I couldn't get back any earlier. I just went through all the postings and I think there has been enough and more of scriptural references  to prove that "wearing Ornaments" is not prohibited in the Bible for the new testament believers. Paul has directed the usage and priorities of Ornaments, but it cannot be a doctrinal and condemn believers who wear the same, or not allow anyone wearing ornaments to be a member of the church.

On the other hand when I said "I think ornaments are better than costly glittering sarees" - I meant it is better to wear ornaments if you want, than wearing a saree with ornaments and glitters on it, to keep up with the so called "Pattern" as stated by some.

Anyways the last couple of postings by iype, monnie and others just said it right and I have nothing more to add. I hope the moderators don't delete this posting  since it challenges one of the fundamental patterns of the KB churches.

Happy New Year in Advance to everyone!! . Lets rejoice as we get closer to the blessed hope - "It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed."

 

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Reply by : josbr   View Profile   Since : 1 Jan 2010 6:02:59 AM Close

Why we need glittering saris or ornaments?

 

Because “…all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3: 23)

 

Before sin there was no need for saris, ornaments, powder, spray, soap etc.  The first thing Adam and Eve did after sin was that they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.  It became a necessity. God was sympathetic to mans needs to make up for the lost glory. The goodness of God gave discretion to man to cover and adorn as seemed fit to man.

 

The purpose of God is to bring many sons again unto glory. (Heb 2:10) He shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body. (Phili 3:21). Our fashioning with glittering saris and ornaments will then become redundant.

 

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Reply by : ayyopavam   View Profile   Since : 3 Jul 2010 9:00:17 AM Close

see now a days there is no such elder in the whole wold i think.  there  should be some qualification for them. not accademic . it is in gospel. if the moopan hane 50 % of mark atleast v can accept him as a moopam. problom is moopan have no such qualification and he is rooling otheres. that is not good. let moopans b holy then thay rool and make disitions, only v can do is pray for them,

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Reply by : sam75813   View Profile   Since : 3 Jul 2010 11:50:30 AM Close

Dear All,

There has been enough deliberations upon the wearing of ornaments, not wearing it, the costly watches, cars, tvs, acs etc...

Moving away from the madding crowd, let me just stream your thoughts that might have caused these rules (not supported by the Scripture for some, and supported for some). I serve in the IAF and after 18 years of experience, i have something to share to you all.  FIrstly we have umpteen number of rules and regulations covered by voluminous books. We have the Air Force Rules, the AF Regulations the AF Instructions and the DSSR etc & to top it all we have the both the AF Law and the IPC and CrPC that governs all of us int he iAF. But not in a single book does it say " You shall not put your hands in the pocket of your trousers when you address your senior" or " You shall not cross your legs when you sit in front of your seniors" We call these unwritten rules "courtesies". So as in any institution, we do have rules which state do this do that, dont and shall not and cannot but certain things are left to the founding fathers and their successors to decide if they are to create a "courtesy" to ensure discipline in the organization. Standing with your hands in the pocket and crossing your legs when you sit before a senior is considered "insubordinate attitude" and they are required to make juniors understand their place in the organisation, and what respect is to be shown to seniors. I am drawing a comparison between, when the initial days, we dont find a mention of the ornament. But a general mention is there about possessions in the book of Acts, imean the selling of all what they had and "placing it at the Apostles' feet". When we see that situation, it could be possible that Ananias and Sapphiara had much more than others, and did feel the pinch when they had to give it all". The giving of all did not mean they became paupers overnight , it was just to bring in a sense of discipline among the then innocent beleivers a uniformity that could be a binding force as it does in the Defence Services. In the Service we have all irrespective of the rank, the same uniform which not only shows the oness we share, but the camaraderie that arises out of it. This is infact the principle that our Founding Fathers of the much-controversial, non-liberalised KB had adopted. Though "Thou shalt not wear ornaments" is not included as the XIth commandment, yet it seemed common-sense in the founding fathers that wearing ornaments did indeed bring about a feel of worldliness in the group of beleivers who had left everything they had for the Lord. The Bretheren Assembly does not believe in CONFORMATION  but TRANSFORMATION by the renewal of mind. It may be true that with the coming of new-blooded Elders, there has been liberalisation among the Bretheren outside Kerala, but I am proud to say that the Bretheren of the Kerala are respected out through the world for their discipline. Notwithstanding the fact that there could be differneces of opinion among believers, and there could have been splits arising out of those but yet the thread that connects them all is common.. Now why are Bretheren mistaken for Pentecosts. We must be ashamed of ourselves if we have traded our identity for liberalisation. Why are not the Pentecostal believers being mistaken for Brethren.

The Bretheren Believers of the early 18 th century had to bear the ire of the local churches such as Syrian, Jacobite and the RC church. This shedding of ornaments were given voluntarily and sometimes forced as a sign of having nothing to do with the background of that believer beit christian or non christian. This was a new way of life that they adopted and they were proud to show it off... plainly. Now the question I want to pose to TOMJ et al, why are you not proud of the new way of life. You said that if you dont have a ring on your finger, your friends would misunderstand that somethings wrong between your wife and you and that you could be mistaken to be a divorcee...My mother had to face a lot of pains in Tamil Nadu specially in the place where we stayed, in Chennai, where she was understood to be a widow, and also a " wayward lady" because she used to walk with a "man" (my father) on the roads with out a "THAALI" or kungumam on her neck. But i can say proudly that she stood by what she believed and God wiling she'll be completing 64 years this october and she had never felt the need to wear any of those for which she has been ridiculed. On the contrary she used make use of these opportunites when ladies used to ask her to share the Gospel and tell them why she was different from them and Yes Praise God, she has been able to bring a few to the Lord because "she did not wear ornaments". When Jesus commissioned the disciples, to PREACH THE GOSPEL to the four ends of the earth, he dint just mean "SPEAK" he could have also meant to live a life that speaks loudly than words.

 

Now coming to the other rules (that have not Scriptual Backing) We dont clap our hands during our worship, has anybody wondered why??? I used to ask my mother this???/ But I believe that the fathers who then decided to skip this coz this could have been the way the Non-believer used to worship nearby in the temples, yet again the question of a difference.

Not wearing the Footwears in the Chruch.. absolutely out of question.. God'd direct order to Moses " Take off your sandals for the Place you stand is Holy" Please no liberalisation with God's Holiness

Austerity.... not possible... not problem but why extravagance. YOu need a car to travel as a family to the church or other secular places, its hot, you need a Air Conditioner, you need to see time, and you have the means to wear a Rolex/Seiko? Do it... You have the means to afford a Mercedes Benz  please ... do so wearing costly sarees.. what has this to do with ornaments.. you cant compare a saree to an Gold necklace.. you could do without a Necklace if you wnat to but how can you forego a saree if wearing it is required.. this completely speaks of the SPIRITUAL IMMATURITY of Shane.

 

Finally, as Paul exhorts..in Rom 12

1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.

2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Owning a Lavish house, an imported watch or a Costly car cannot be counted as CONFORMATION but as blessings but wearing an ornament is definitely not necessary as much as house or a car or watch could be.. If you have a house, you are said to be blessed to have a roof over your head, the way you build it is within your means that you can afford, and the same applies to the car you own or the watch you buy, some believer would;nt be able to afford even the cheap watches you get in Delhi, but there may be others, who could afford imported ones. If i own a imported car, i am living within my means, i have not asked the church or its believers to sponsor for it. If I have a lavish flat or a house, i have done it within my own resources which i feel is befitting my status, but how does wearing ornaments befit your status, it only makes you one among those people who are non-believers. 

 

Sam Madipakkam

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Reply by : ayyopavam   View Profile   Since : 4 Jul 2010 6:20:06 AM Close

hi bro, v r not using ornaments only cose of our for father . it is not biblical. i dont think our for father only avoid using gold or such thing. they did plenty  of things to identyfy them as a true christian. and now u and me only saying about ornaments. now there is not even the love what thy show to us.if u and me love atleast each other that will be a gospel for non believer. and if u and me love others that will be a gospel for non christians. if u not wearing gold and living like a woldly man how u can say this all. if v r folowing  the word of god then if some one using gold as a ring or chain or any other u cant stop them. becouse of this issue  v r doing sin agaist god. how is ? when i was in dehi i spok gospel to my co workers  (Nurses)  they are very much happy with our upadhesham and all activityes. but they just told me that u peoples  will say remove chain and all. so that they did not come to our church. atleast we should give them a chance to come to god. then after let them do what they need.and the same time we can share the true gospel to them and we can say about why we r not using such things.

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Reply by : paul_thomas   View Profile   Since : 7 Jul 2010 5:41:13 PM Close

 Dear Sam Madipakkam,

 
A Rs300 Saree will serve the same purpose as a Rs 10,000 one. Same goes holds true if the saree is plain or has costly embroidery to look it beautiful. If the intention of not wearing ornaments is to live a simple life, and not give importance to outward appearance, lets apply it everywhere no matter what. If that is not the case, there is no point.
 
Secondly imposing a believer not to wear ornaments, and cutting them off from fellowship, is a cult practice and not a Biblical teaching. People and the church who does this will be accountable to God.
 
There is a general notion among some of our children, that wearing ornaments is a sin!  If someone wears an ornament they look down on them, gossip about it and bring up allegations. Is there any need for all this?
 
My heart goes out to the believers who have left KB churches in the name of ornaments.
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Reply by : eagle   View Profile   Since : 26 Jul 2010 4:04:52 PM Close

 Hi all, 

  I'm new to these forums. Just joined today and this is my first post! 

Ok, So I did a bit of reading on these forums and not surprisingly the most hotly discussed issue here is the issue with ornaments just like in kerala at the moment. Now as an observer, I cant help but smile in irony at the fact that this really minor, tiny, miniscule of an  issue is the biggest debating factor in our assemblies with books written with loads of personal attacks, speeches etc (*Shakes head*). 

Anyways, on topic, (by the way, I'm on no one's side)

I'd like to recount an incident. We are quite close to our neighbours(who are catholic) and since the time I was a kid, I'd usually run to their house to play or invite kids from their house to my place. Being our neighbours for over 30 years now, they understand our customs and "Traditions". Now a few years back, while talking on either side of our compound wall, the aunty there narrated an incident.

Supposedly, our neighbour aunty and her daughter in law went to "Kalyan Silks" showroom in Ernakulam to buy a saree(for those unfamiliar with Kalyan Silks, its a rather  ridiculously large saree shop popular around there). So they started looking at a few sarees with a salesman to assist them when a few ladies from our community (Known to us and our neighbours as well) walked in. Now, while the section my neighbours were looking at had expensive sarees, one of my neighbours pointed at a few sarees with a ton of embroidered work on them and asked the salesperson if she could take a look at them.

The Sales person responded like this "These are very expensive > 20,000 rupees, not for normal people.."  He continued "However, (*pointing with his eyes at our community ladies*), there is this certain group of people who dont wear any kind of jewellery. They're the ones who buy these sarees most with their gulf money.. Inorder to make up for the jewellery perhaps" 

Now, when my neighbours recited this, I burst out laughing (I know, its ironic.. But couldn't help it nevertheless :D). However, bottom-line is, if that's the opinion about us from an outsider..

Not wearing Gold or wearing Gold is a personal thing. However, wearing Gold studded sarees and pure Gold watches(One elder in our assembly used to preach against wearing gold ornaments while wearing a rolex (he says pure gold) watch at the same time) while condeming those who wear a wedding ring or a small necklace and considering them unholy at the same time is Hippocracy.

Sorry for the wall of text. If you're reading this, thanks for reading, and yeah, I'm not on anyone's side here. Still, just had to put this in here..

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Reply by : bochayan   View Profile   Since : 27 Jul 2010 11:15:51 AM Close

Dear Eagle,

your anecdote about your neighbour 's saree buying experieince was hilarious  though sad,  and i enjoyed reading it , As pointed in the threads above by many brethren, if we don't practice what we preach , even the dumbest of unbeliever will see the hypocrisy even without visiting a brethren assembly, a saree might cost 20000 but a rolex(pure gold) costs several lakhs , i have no problem if somebody wears rolex or a 20k saree as long as they don't insist that we call him/her "vervaad/verpattu" people because they are not. 

as a preacher said . our testimony is the "fifth gospel" i:e an unbeliever may not visit an assembly and not hear the word of God, but the way we live our faith in our daily life is the Gospel he will see and as Believers we have that responsibilty to live as followers of Christ.

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