KeralaBrethren.net
New User? Register Today!
Registered Users, LOGIN

K E R A L A  B R E T H R E N
General Forum

Forums Home ::
This Message Forum is to discuss spiritual topics only. Please avoid personal or assembly matters.
Let us use this facility for our spiritual enrichment and for bringing glory to our Lord almighty.
Webmasters reserve the right to delete any topic or posting partly or completely from this forum.
View Topics :: :: Post new topic


Keralabrethren.net: General Forum: The offense of John the Baptist

Post Reply
Go to bottom of the page

# 01993 :  The offense of John the Baptist
'Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another ?'
Matt 11:3

John never doubted that Jesus was 'he that should come'.

John was second cousin to Jesus by birth, and would have spent many many days with him during their growing years. Without fail he would have taken note of Jesus' impeccable life. Even when John was in his mother's womb he responded with joy at the arrival of Jesus (who was also in his mother's womb). John grew up a very spiritual person. John was also a very scriptural person. John was great toward God even at his birth. God specifically instructed John that he would know the Messiah when the Holy Ghost descends upon Jesus like a dove. He saw it, and he testified to Israel that Jesus was the Lamb of God.

John never doubted that Jesus was 'he that should come'. Then why such a question?

1 of 3

~ Babu

 

 
 

 

Post by : brobabugeorge  View Profile    since : 23 Jan 2010


Reply by : brobabugeorge   View Profile   Since : 23 Jan 2010 6:06:55 PM Close

 From Jesus' reply we see why John had asked such a question. Jesus concluded his reply by saying, blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me. Matt 11:6. The question was asked because John was offended in Jesus Christ.

So why was John offended in Jesus Christ?

 

According to Jesus' own self introduction, and according to the general belief of Israel as a whole, and John the baptist in particular, the Messiah was anointed of the LORD to preach good tidings unto the meek; to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

John the baptist was bound in prison for speaking against the sin of a ruler. It was natural for him to expect the Messiah to set him at liberty, ... was that not one of his anointed duties? Probably John spoke out boldly against the ruler because of his own assurance that the liberator of captives was around. But for some strange reason that was not happening. Jesus Christ was not living up to John's expectation. So John was offended in Jesus Christ for not delivering him from prison.

Well, then his question should have been 'Why are you not delivering me from prison?'

 

2 of 3

~ Babu

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : brobabugeorge   View Profile   Since : 23 Jan 2010 6:18:36 PM Close

 'Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another ?'

John's question was SARCASM. The implied message was 'you are not behaving like our Messiah. You are not fulfilling your commitment to our nation. Do we look for some one else to do your job? Why am I still in prison? Why don't you deliver me from prison? 

I like the answer that Jesus Christ gave. You see... he listed down the things he was doing as expected of the Messiah, 'Go tell John, The blind receive their sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the poor have the gospel preached to them.' On purpose the Lord left out 'opening of the prison to them that are bound'

This is what our Lord implied by the answer. 'See what all I am doing. And yes, I know you are in prison, but I do what I wish to do. I do not wish to release you from prison. So, are you going to get offended in me?' 

Mark 4:16-17 And these are they which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; and so endure but for a time: afterward, when persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended .

How much better was Job in this department, for when he was persecuted, his wife said unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die. But Job said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil ? 
 
3 of 3
~ Babu

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 26 Jan 2010 3:19:31 PM Close

Dear Babu George,

From the context, Matthew 11:1-15, we learn that John the Baptist did not offend at Christ. Though it is written by many that John was offended at Christ.

Shalom Malekim!!!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : brobabugeorge   View Profile   Since : 27 Jan 2010 3:05:48 PM Close

 Matt 11:6

And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
 
This is the conclusion of the reply that Jesus Christ gave the disciples of John. Can't we imply from this statement that John was offended in Jesus Christ?
 
~ Babu
Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 28 Jan 2010 1:34:12 PM Close

Dear Babu,

Why did you stop at verse six of Matthew 11?  Verse seven tells that the Lord Jesus Christ continued His remarks on the subject, after the disciples of John the Baptist were gone.  We should consider at least up to verse 15, for context, as given in the Word of God.

Shalom Malekim!!!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : brobabugeorge   View Profile   Since : 28 Jan 2010 5:45:42 PM Close

 Dear brother Koshy:

I stopped at v6 because that is the end of the answer to John. Well, as suggested by you, I did study up to v15, and I still think that John was offended in Jesus Christ. Could you please share with me, what did you observe in verses 7-15 that made you think otherwise.

~ Babu

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 28 Jan 2010 6:05:43 PM Close

Dear Babu,

If DV, next week.

Shalom Malekim!!!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : greatlybeloved   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2010 1:34:18 AM Close

Brother Babu, 

I always got confused with that passage. Thank you for your exposition, you connected the scriptures well to make sense out of the passage.

It'd be interesting to see brother Koshy's view on this topic.

John.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2010 3:28:08 PM Close

Though Babu's write up on the "offence" of John the Baptist is pretty good, I do not think he is 100% correct in his premise, analysis and conclusion. This can be seen by studying the entire passage. I will wait to hear from Mr. Koshy.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : brobabugeorge   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2010 3:51:45 PM Close

 Dear Moses2006:

Thank you for pointing out that my observations are not 100% correct. As always, I would be only too glad to correct myself, so please take the liberty to show us where I have erred. Brother Koshy will write when he has the time, you need not wait for his feedback... your feedback is equally valued.

~ Babu

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2010 7:46:32 PM Close

Dear Babu,

I did not mean to offend you...I hope we can learn from each other. I would like to hear from Mr. Koshy and only contribute if I have anything new to add.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : brobabugeorge   View Profile   Since : 31 Jan 2010 11:41:44 AM Close

 Hi Moses2006:

Did my posting convey that I was offended? Not at all. 

Let me request once again; since you wrote that you do not think I am fully correct in my conclusions, please offer your observations. You did say that we could learn from each other, but if you are not posting anything, how can I learn from you?

~ Babu

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 2 Feb 2010 9:13:16 PM Close

Dear Babu,

Per your request, here is my explanation. To fully understand this portion in Matt 11, it helps to go back and understand the scope of John's ministry that preceded the Lord's ministry. The best way to do that is by asking questions about what we know about John.

Q: What did John think of himself?
A: As the one who fulfills the prophecy of the one crying out in the desert "Make straight the way of the Lord" (Joh 1:23). His role was to herald the coming Messiah, the Christ that the Jews were awaiting.

Q: How did John interpret this prophecy and his own role?
A: As the person who would prepare Israel for the coming Christ, by pulling them back from being just externally religious to being "fruitful" as the evidence of repentance that Christ was seeking. (Luk 3:8)

Q: In what way would John prepare Israel for Christ?
A: By warning them of what Christ was going to do when He was revealed, to those who are not fruitful in their repentance.

Q: What did John warn Israel of regarding Christ?
A: (Luk 3:16, 17) John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable." So John warned them to be fruitful before Christ comes to purge their nation, gathering His wheat and burning the chaff.

The questions and answers above help us understand John's role as he understood it. When the Lord started His ministry, John expected an immediate fulfillment of the things that he had spoken of regarding Jesus. However, Jesus's ministry did not pan out in the way that John anticipated. Having been jailed for the bold act of criticizing the king, John lay there hoping that Jesus would soon start "laying the axe to the tree, purging by fire and the burning of the chaff" in Israel. However, Jesus never started anything even remotely like what John expected. This "anti-climax" is at the crux of his question to Jesus in Matt 11:3.

In fact Jesus knew exactly what was going on in John's mind. In Matt 11, after responding to John's question, Jesus said in v16 and 17 - "But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented." John's message was grave and solemn. He is represented by the children who “sang the dirge and mourned unto you and ye have not lamented". Despite the seriousness of his message, and of his personality, the nation of Israel did not receive the kingdom of heaven. The Lord Jesus, on the other hand did not preach "gloom and doom" like John. His message is represented by "the children who piped and their fellows did not dance". In other words, the nation of Israel neither responded to John solemn message nor did they respond to the Lord's "pipe/dance" approach. Yes, many people in Judea did go out to hear John and be baptized by him, but as a ‘generation’ Israel did not heed the solemn warnings of John or coming running to the overtures of the Lord.

The Lord's allegorical reference to the children singing the dirge and playing the pipe, is clearly a statement of the opposite approaches that He and John took in addressing the same people with essentially the same message. The difference was more than just approach. While John lived in the wilderness, wore camel's hair garment and ate locusts and wild honey, Jesus was a man of the crowds who associated with all, especially the “questionable crowd”. The word that reached John in the prison was exactly what the Lord quoted about Himself - "The Son of man" who "came eating and drinking", “gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners".

This anti-climax was too much for John who lay waiting in prison for Jesus to enter the political arena. While he never doubted Jesus identity, he started doubting Jesus mission. What was this Jesus up to? Where is all the “fire and brimstone” he had predicted? Hence he send his disciples to ask Jesus whether someone else should be expected to completely fulfill all that John had prophesied by the Holy Spirit. The very fact that John send his disciples to Jesus, trusting Him, shows that John never doubted that this Jesus was Himself, the Christ.

In fact John was a great prophet who was eclipsed only by the Son of God. Despite his skepticism of Jesus ministry, he loved the Lord and was ready to decrease, so that Jesus’s ministry would increase. In this stated desire, there is a sense that John anticipated his own death, so that Jesus ministry would not be obstructed by his own. From that perspective, I do not consider that he faulted Jesus for not delivering him from Herod’s prison.

So the premise that John was seeking a deliverance from Jesus does not align with John’s own stated desire. Further, the verse quoted from Isa 61:1 where reference is made of “proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound” is talking completely about spiritual captives and imprisonment by Satan. There is no prophecy that Christ would free political prisoners like John, from captivity.

Certainly, John was taken aback by what he heard about Jesus’s works from prison. The most logical reason is that Jesus approach to ministry was very different from what John himself had done, unlike what he had predicted about Jesus and contrary to what he expected to come true in his lifetime. However, the Lord reply to John’s disciples points to the very works that John doubted, to be His credentials. These were the very works that the Father had entrusted the Son to complete.…works that John himself had never done.

If we mean for the word “offended” to mean “fall back” or “taken back” or “unpleasantly surprised”, then yes, it is correct to say that John was “offended” by Jesus ministry. However, in the modern usage, we mean “offended” to mean “hurt” and “insulted”. If we use these later meanings in the reference, then, by no means was John the Baptist “offended” by the Lord Jesus. Far from being hurt and insulted, John was more than willing to decrease, so that Christ would increase.
 

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : brobabugeorge   View Profile   Since : 3 Feb 2010 2:00:24 AM Close

Thank you Moses2006 for your detailed response. I would agree 100% with all that you have written. However, in your last para you proposed two possible meanings for the word 'offended':

(i) unpleasantly surprised / taken aback / fall back

(ii) insulted / hurt

When Jesus Christ said in Matt 11:6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me. you suggested that it means 'unpleasantly surprised'. If we put this meaning in the statement of Jesus Christ, it would convey this message:

Blessed is he, whosoever shall not be unpleasantly surprised in me.

It does not sound right to me.

... contd

~ Babu

 

 


Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : brobabugeorge   View Profile   Since : 3 Feb 2010 2:08:55 AM Close

I have looked up this word 'offence', 'offend', 'offended' in all its appearances in the Bible and  was able to list down THREE possible meanings this word took based on its context: 

 

1, To trip / to stumble / to failJames 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

2, To be a stumbling block / to cause another to fall into sinful waysMatthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.  Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

3, to annoy, to displease, to cause bitterness / resentment. Prov 18:19 A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city:  Matt 13:20-21 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; ... but when tribulation ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended .

I could not find any scripture where this word would mean taken aback / unpleasantly surprised / fall back. So how did you conclude that 'offend' in Matt 11:6 means this?

~ Babu

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 3 Feb 2010 2:39:57 AM Close

Dear Babu,

From the 3 meanings for 'offend' you offered, which one would you pick for the Lord's reference in Matt 11:6? Please explain your choice. I wait to hear from you.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : brobabugeorge   View Profile   Since : 3 Feb 2010 12:04:33 PM Close

It would be either 1 or 3. I am going by 3 based on the context. John the baptist was annoyed, displeased, and bitter at the Lord Jesus Christ for not releasing him from prison, for not living up to John's expectations of the Messiah. This is the same as one of the meanings provided by you; ie insulted / hurt.

~ Babu

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 3 Feb 2010 1:42:24 PM Close

Dear Babu,

Why do you think John expected Jesus to come and release him from prison? Did John land up in prison for Jesus sake? Did all other prisoners with John, who were unjustly locked up also get "annoyed, displeased, and bitter" at the Lord Jesus Christ for not releasing them all from prison?

 

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 4 Feb 2010 8:09:52 PM Close

 

Dear Babu,
 
The incident we read in Matthew 11:1-19 is stated again in Luke 7:18-35. Some Christians think that John was confused about Jesus being the Messiah and he needed some clarification to that fact from Lord Jesus Christ, his cousin. The above-mentioned Scriptures are the immediate context of the incident of interest.
 
When such an idea is presented, one ought to “search the Scriptures,” as commanded by the Lord Jesus Christ. When we search the scriptures, we should consider all the Scriptures that are available to us on both John the Baptist and the Lord Jesus Christ, them being mentioned together. If we do that, we are considering the whole context of the subject of interest. The immediate context provides us with partial understanding of the incident, while the whole context provides us with a complete and comprehensive understanding of the incident, as God intended for us. If we limit ourselves with only the incident, as we read in Matthew 11:1-6 and Luke 7:18-23, then we are getting only a snap-shot of what the Holy Spirit wanted us to know about that incident, which is still smaller than what is given to us in Matthew 11:1-19 and Luke 7:18-35.
 
I request you to read the following verses before proceeding. If you do not do so, then you are only interested in an intellectual discourse without searching the Scriptures. We should develop the habit of searching the Scriptures to know the revealed will and mind of God. The Scriptures of interest are:
 
Luke 1:5-25 -- Conception of John by Elizabeth
Luke 1:36-45 --Elizabeth and John greeting Mary
Luke 1:46-80 -- Birth of John
Luke 3:2-18 -- John’s preaching and testimony
Matthew 3:1-17; Mark 1:1-11; Luke 3:21-23  – John baptizing Christ
John 1:29-34 -- John’s testimony how God revealed the Son to him
John 1:35-40 -- John losing his disciples to Jesus
Matthew 4:12; Mark 6:14-32 – John cast into prison
Matthew 9:14-17; Mark 2:18-22 -- John’s disciples questions Christ on fasting
Matthew 11:1-6; Luke 7:18-23 – John sent two of his disciples to Christ
Matthew 7:7-19; Luke 7:24-34 – The testimony of Christ about John
Matthew 14:1-13 – Beheading of John
Mark 1:14 -- Christ preaching the kingdom of God after John was put in prison
Matthew 16:1413-20; Mark 8:27-30; Luke 9:18-20 – Peter’s testimony of Christ
Matthew 17:10-13 – Christ’s testimony of John
Matthew 21:23-32; Mark 11:27-33; Luke 20:1-8 – Pharisees were silenced by using John’s baptism
Luke 3:19-20 -- About the imprisonment of John
Luke 5:33-39 – Question about the fasting of John’s disciples
Luke 9:7-10 – Fear of Herod
Luke 11:1 -- John taught his disciples how to pray
Luke 16:16 – The dispensation of laws and the prophets
John 1:6-8 -- God’s testimony about John
John 1:15-28 -- John’s testimony about Jesus
John 3:23-24 – About John baptizing
John 3:25-34 -- John’s testimony, “He must increase, I must decrease.”
John 4:1-2 -- Comparison of the baptisms between that of John and Christ
John 5:32-36 -- The value of John’s witness
John 10:40-41 -- The place of John’s baptism
Acts 1:5, 22; 10:37; 11:16; 13:24-25; 18:25; 19:4 -- Significance of John’s baptism. The testimony of the Holy Spirit as the Paracletes
[Note: This list may not be exhaustive.]
 
I tried to arrange the above list chronologically, but you could improve on it. Indeed, it needs improvement.
 
John the Baptist received better testimony than any of us could receive from the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Before we agree with those who say that John was “offended” at Christ for not delivering him from Herod’s prison or some other reason, let us look into the whole information given to us by the Holy Spirit in the God-breathed (inspired) Word of God. That is what I consider as searching the Scriptures as exhorted by the Lord Jesus Christ. We should be slow in casting such stones at those who are held at high esteem by our Triune God (in this case, it is John the Baptist) and made it known to us by His testimonies in His word, the Scriptures.
 
In order to shift the act of being ‘offended’ to John, we have a tendency to overlook what the Lord explained about John in Matthew 11:7-15 and the corresponding verses in Luke 7, but will consider verse 16 onwards. John’s message was not that of ‘gloom and doom’ as some may make it to be. It was a message of judgment from God under the Messiah, if they refuse to turn to God from their ways. It is the same as preaching of salvation. If we read the four Gospels, we come to realize that the Lord Jesus Christ preached about the Judgment that is given to Him by the Father, especially the baptism with fire in the Lake of Fire. He also preached about the salvation from that judgment and the baptism with the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist did that too. The preaching of the good news, the gospel, always contains the message of judgment and salvation from it. John preached about the coming of the Messiah with a winnowing fan to separate the wheat from the chaff, and the burning of the chaff in fire. Salvation is the deliverance from judgment as we read in the last two verses in John 3. We read this again in Romans 1:16-17. “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God” is man’s condition. In Romans 6:23, we read about the wages of sin and also about the act of favor (the gift) of God through Jesus the Messiah, our Lord. Without stating the judgment of God as the condition of man, there is no good news of salvation. John, the man sent from God, was “a burning and a shining lamp” (John 5:35), but “he was not the Light” (John 1:8), therefore he bore the witness concerning the Light (John 1:7).
 
John was the messenger of God, sent by God, as the forerunner of the Son who came to redeem man. He proclaimed what God wanted him to say and received an excellent testimony of approval of the message he delivered. These certificates of testimonies were from the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If any one says that God’s messenger’s message was a message of “gloom and doom,” then it reveals the mindset of that person and not of the nature of the message heard from the messenger of God. God’s message may appear to the world, influenced by Satan, as a message of “gloom and doom,” but to the repenting man it is the message of salvation, the good news, the gospel.  This is what we read throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament. Think about Nineveh in the book of Jonah. No man has the authority to say that God’s message is a message of “gloom and doom.” Remember the fact that John was born by a special decree from God for the express purpose of declaring the presence of the Son among men by stating that He is “the Lamb of God.” John was born to prepare the way for the Lamb of God to begin His mission. That he did, without any deviation from God’s command. On the 21st century, men say that John’s message was a message of “gloom and doom!”
 
I hope that you will study the verses, listed above, and please post what you glean from them. If I missed any, please add those to the list.
 
[Note: I will be away for a few weeks.]
 
Shalom Malekim!!!
Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page


Post reply Here

please login to continue..

Registered Users, Login below:

Username Password
Problem Login?

New User? Register Now

Forgot User Name or Password? Click Here

Go to top of the page

All times are GMT -5 Hours
Forums Home ::
© 2010 Sansnet.com



HOME