KeralaBrethren.net
New User? Register Today!
Registered Users, LOGIN

K E R A L A  B R E T H R E N
General Forum

Forums Home ::
This Message Forum is to discuss spiritual topics only. Please avoid personal or assembly matters.
Let us use this facility for our spiritual enrichment and for bringing glory to our Lord almighty.
Webmasters reserve the right to delete any topic or posting partly or completely from this forum.
View Topics :: :: Post new topic


Keralabrethren.net: General Forum: Abundant life

Post Reply
Go to bottom of the page

# 02041 :  Abundant life

Dear friends..if you can please help me with a question I have. In John 10:10 Jesus said - I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. In Matthew 10:39 Jesus said - He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

How can we have the "abundant life" and at the same time "lose it" for Jesus sake. Why these two verses seem to contradict and what does each verse mean? Please share from scripture.

In Christ,

Vinod Mammen.

 

Post by : vinod1  View Profile    since : 6 Jul 2010


Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 6 Jul 2010 2:23:05 PM Close

Dear Vinod Mammen,

If we read Matthew 10:34-42, then we will understand that the context is about becoming martyrs for Christ's sake.  It is about losing the earthly life and not the eternal life that is mentioned in John 10:10.  It is better to read John 10:1-21.

Shalom Malekim!!!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : vinod1   View Profile   Since : 6 Jul 2010 8:44:47 PM Close

Dear George P. Koshy..thank you for your response. I read the passages again and did not find any reference to martyr in Matthew 10:34-42. Also in John 10:1-21 there is no reference to eternal life...perhaps you can explain more your teaching how these two passages refer to what you wrote.

In Christ,

Vinod Mammen.

 

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 7 Jul 2010 12:25:57 PM Close

Dear Vinod Mammen,

That is the verse you quoted, Matthew 10:39.  There we read about losing of this earthly life, not eternal life, in connection with "for my sake."  I asked you to read that verse in its immediate context.  My teaching is that we should start reading the Scriptures in its context as written.   That is the Lord's requirement, as written in Luke 10:26.

Shalom Malekim!!!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 8 Jul 2010 4:10:34 AM Close

Dear Vinod,

Contrary to what Mr Koshy wrote, Mat 10:39 is about taking the cross and following Lord Jesus on a day to day basis. It is not about being a martyr for the Lord (which is an erroneous teaching from Mr. Koshy). To loose one's life for Jesus sake, means to give up the right of choices to Jesus, in deference and obedience to Him. As a result of such obedience, the believer will "loose" opportunities to live and enjoy all the pleasures of this life - which includes the lust of the eyes and the lust of the flesh. If you take the cross and follow Jesus, you will "find that life" in eternity (in rewards). But those who find this life and its pleasures in this life, will loose the ability to find rewards in the afterlife. That is what is meant by the Lord when He said "He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it." It has nothing to do with being a martyr, as you rightly observed.

In John 10:10 the Lord Jesus is not talking only about eternal life. He is also talking about the life now with Him as Savior and Lord. We have the privilege in this life itself to enjoy the abundant life with Him in us. Paul calls this life as "being filled with the Spirit" (Eph 5:18). When we are living such a life (filled with the power of God's Spirit), we will have an abundance of fruits of the Spirit in our life - love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control (Gal 5:22). That is the abundant life that the Lord Jesus has promised to His children. And of course, His promise also includes eternal life.

Matt 10:39 and John 10:10 do not contradict one another as you said. They actually complement one another. Only by giving up loosing our life (i.e. give up our carnal life,  take the cross and following Jesus) can we be filled with the power of the Spirit of God. It is only those who are filled by the Spirit who will enjoy the promised abundant life. So indeed, we have to "loose" our life to get the "abundant life" in Christ.

 

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 8 Jul 2010 12:27:36 PM Close

Dear 'moses2006,'

If you want to contradict me, you may do so.  On the other hand, you should not contradict the Scriptures.  It is the Word of God that is verbally inspired by God.

The following is an example that you contradict the Scriptures to contradict me.  Let me quote Matthew 10:39 from KJV, "He that findeth his life, shall lose it; and he that loseth his life for my sake, shall find it."  The Lord Jesus Christ said about losing ones life for His sake.  Is that martyrdom or daily life?  I say that it is the former, because losing life for the sake of Christ is martyrdom.  Please read the verse in its context, I suggest to read Matthew 10:34-42.  If you do so, then you will realize that the Lord was talking about persecution.

Shalom Malekim!!!  

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 8 Jul 2010 2:41:09 PM Close

Dear Mr. Koshy,

I am only contradicting with you, not with the scriptures. You should read Matt 10:38 before interpreting v39.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 8 Jul 2010 4:49:39 PM Close

Dear 'moses2006,'

How is the Lord's saying "he that loseth his life for my sake, shall find it,"  is daily life?  It is about persecution, including martyrdom, and being with the Lord, as Apostle Paul wrote.  In this verse, the Lord said about those who lose their life "shall find it,." and that losing was for "My sake."  Those who lose their life in this world for His sake shall find their eternal life immediately.  They do not have to wait for the rapture.

You are contradicting the Scriptures, when you deny this truth from the Son..

Shalom Malekim!!!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 8 Jul 2010 5:52:29 PM Close

Dear Mr. Koshy,

You have quoted only a part of the entire verse. You have to consider the entire verse and study in the context of what Jesus just said. The AS WRITTEN (and translated) verse is "He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it."

According to you the last part ("he who loses his life for My sake will find it") is for martyrs who lose their life for Jesus. If so, the what is the meaning of the first part "He who finds his life will lose it"? Is the first part also talking about martyrdom?

 

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 8 Jul 2010 7:38:23 PM Close

Dear 'moses2006' and 'noj,'

Previously I quoted the whole verse.  In the last frame, I quoted the portion under consideration in its context.  The life that is found is the same life he tried to have by what is in Matthew 10:37 and not doing what is in Matthew 10:38.  the persecutors are those who are of his own household (Matthew 10:36).

You should not forget what is written.  It is about 'finding' the life and not receiving it.  Those who try to save his life by denying the Lord will receive their punishment, from the Lord.  Those who lose their life for the sake of the Lord will "find" life that was not found before.  Those who are saved by the Lord know that they have eternal life, but have not seen it.  They will see it only when they are with the Lord.  When they are with the Lord, they will find what they hoped for and believed in faith.

Two examples:  First, Noah did not know anything about rain and flood.  We read this in Hebrews 11.  But he believed what he was told by Jehovah.  When he entered the ark, a type of Christ and was with the Jehovah, the rain came and he saw what he believed in faith.  Noah also saw the flood that he heard from Jehovah and believed without seeing.  Second, Abraham believed God but did not see his seed, his only son.  When the son was born, he saw his seed.  When he saw his seed, he called his "He laughed," Isaac.  There is a 'finding' of what they believed by faith in God's word.

Similarly those who lose their earthly life for His sake will be with the Lord, and will find what they believed.

This is a great comparison between the earthly life and the eternal life.  One is to lose and the other is not to gain at death, but to find at death.

Shalom Malekim!!!. 

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 9 Jul 2010 7:04:28 PM Close

 

Dear ‘noj,’
 
I was expecting this kind of a reply for my posting for some time and you provided it on 9 July 2010. There are reasons for not seeing the Hebrew and Greek words in the reference materials, when you make a partial search. Let me address few of them.
 
First, you are not searching the Scriptures in the original language, but are searching reference works on the Scriptures. These reference works are works of men and should not be treated as equal as or greater than the Scriptures. Surely, they wrote those materials to help a serious student to study the Word of God and not for serious contentious person to mislead others, when they pretend that they know the ancient languages, while they don’t. Therefore, you should read the Scriptures in the original language before you search those reference materials, like Lexicons, to find all the words as written in the Scriptures.
 
When you wrote, “I could not trace many Greek words that you write. It is highly time consuming and is of no Yesterday, I had to spend many hours finding out the Greek words that you write,” you did not provide the words that you searched for. Instead, you gave only a very general statement. Therefore, I could not help you. What ever those words are, please check in the original language as written in the Scriptures and not books on the Scriptures. On the thread, “Lords table and brethren,” I provided the Greek reading of 1 Corinthians 10:17 in answer to your similar question of TOU ENOS ARTOU.
 
Second, on this point, I wish to consider Lexicons, because you mentioned it in your posting. Lexicons give the basic word and within its body of discussion, you may find variations of that word. In order to have all variations, you have to have an unabridged lexicon.
 
Let me try to explain using Malayalam. There are variations to a basic word and for simplicity; I am using the following Malayalam words. VARUKA, VARUNNU, VANNU, VARUM, VARANAM, VANNUKONDEYIRIKKUNNU, VANNIRUNNU, …. There could be some more, but let me limit. A Malayalam lexicon may start with the basic form and may include all variations within its discussion. In order to find a specific variant, you may have to read all of it and not the word that is used to start the discussion on it. We may face a similar situation in a dictionary. If we are using an abridged dictionary, then not all variations will be found in it. Therefore, an unabridged dictionary is preferable.    
 
Third, when people could justify from the Scriptures what they write, they will not find me saying anything against what they write. When I disagree with any, I write what I saw in the Scriptures. I try to use the immediate context as well as all pertaining verses. In order to justify from the Scriptures, we should search the Scriptures. Searching the writings of others, as you wrote “I can depend on many fine articles and literature avaialble as resouces for me,” is not searching the Scriptures. Hearing or reading a sermon is not searching the Scriptures. It is searching the literature. The Jews of Berea heard Apostle Paul and then they went home and searched the Scriptures on what they heard.
 
Fourth, The Scriptures are the Word of God. Being God’s word, the study of it will be time consuming and mind taxing. On the other hand, reading the works of others will not be time consuming or mind taxing. It is just being spoon-fed. When the baby is spoon fed, he is satisfied and content. When that baby grows to be a child and then to an adult, if he/she wants to be spoon-fed, then that is not a sign of healthy growth. There is something wrong with that grown or growing person. I wish we all would start to search the Scriptures, at least in the language in which we are familiar.
 
A final comment: do you know how much time I spent in searching the Scriptures? I search the Scriptures in the original languages, if it is necessary. It is in the hope that I could help at least one of the readers. If it is not a two or three line posting, I write search, then write, then read, then edit, and then spell-check, if necessary. There is a possibility that I may miss the wrong word, spelled correctly. This is done in the hope of helping at least one of my brethren. People who disagree with me may think that they could intimidate me by writing as you did, “Discussing with you will be like confronting an enemy to show excellence in knowlege.”  I do all things as to the Lord (Ephesians 6:7-8; Titus 2:10). In this context, Matthew 10:34-42 is appropriate. In conclusion, when a person does not want to be identified and use initials or pseudonym, that itself indicate that he/she does not want me to greet him/her by the real name. The Scriptures demands, “Greet the friends by name” (3 John 14). That is why I use my name, every one knows me by my name, and when I go to a place, they could recognize me as I write on this Forum. I write with that in my mind, while those who do not use their proper name, do not have to worry about that.
 

Shalom Malekim!!!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 12 Jul 2010 3:09:00 PM Close

Dear Mr. Koshy,

Could you please explain your statement "Those who try to save his life by denying the Lord will receive their punishment, from the Lord." Please clarify what you mean by "denying the Lord" and "punishment from the Lord".

 

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 12 Jul 2010 6:01:04 PM Close

Dear 'moses2006,'

Please read Matthew 10:32-33 and 2 Timothy 2:11-13.

Shalom Malekim!!!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 12 Jul 2010 8:16:27 PM Close

Dear Mr Koshy,

When I asked to you to explain "He who finds his life will lose it" you said "Those who try to save his life by denying the Lord will receive their punishment, from the Lord."

When I asked you to explain "Those who try to save his life by denying the Lord will receive their punishment, from the Lord." you said "Please read Matthew 10:32-33 and 2 Timothy 2:11-13."

So can I take it that you are saying that the sentence "He who finds his life will lose it" is explained by Matthew 10:32-33 and 2 Timothy 2:11-13?

 

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 13 Jul 2010 12:31:56 PM Close

Dear 'moses2006,'

I explained your question on 8 July 2010.  If you have not understood it, you should explain what is hindering you from understanding it.  I thought that the two Scriptures will help you to understand it further, Matthew 10:34-42.  If you still have problem, please make it known in simple language using the verse we are concerned about.  It is the Scripture that we have to understand.  If you have difficulty in understanding the Scriptures, you should make it known by explaining what, where, and why you have difficulty.  Please do so.

Shalom Malekim!!!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 13 Jul 2010 2:07:51 PM Close

Dear Mr. Koshy,

I do not need your help to understand scripture. All I asked for was a clarification on what you are saying. Let me repeat my question:

Are YOU saying that the first part of the verse Matt 10:39 "He who finds his life will lose it" is explained by Matthew 10:32-33 and 2 Timothy 2:11-13?

 

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 14 Jul 2010 6:06:56 PM Close

 

Dear ‘moses2006,’
 
Though you wrote that you do not need my help to understand the Scriptures, the fact is that you do need my help. With that in mind, let us look into Matthew 10 as a whole, briefly, to understand Matthew 10:39, in its context. If we do, then you will understand that 2 Timothy 2:11-13 is an explanation of Matthew 10:32-33 and is connected with Matthew 10:39. You should not take one verse out of its context and establish a theory, but should understand a verse in its context and also in the light of all the revealed verses on that subject.
 
Matthew 10 is about the instructions of the Lord to His disciples and not to the unbelieving world. Please read Matthew 10:1 through 11:1. Matthew 10 begins with the calling of the 12 disciples by Christ. Matthew 10:5 onwards tells us that Christ sent them with a charge to preach the gospel of the kingdom of the heavens only to the lost sheep of Israel. Matthew 10:16 onwards tells us that the nature of their behavior was to be as lambs among the wolves. That is the nature of their sending and mission. Matthew 10:21-37 tells us about the persecution that they should expect. They were told that the persecution would start at home, which is again emphasized in verses 34-37. Matthew 10:23-27 tells us about how they should behave when they were persecuted and that was to flee to another city. Their persecution and name-calling were rooted in the hatred of the world towards their Master, Lord Jesus Christ. They were also told that they would be empowered to speak and revelations will be given to them. Matthew 10:28-33 tells us about what the persecutors could do. Their Master has knowledge of the persecution they are to receive, before it happened. He also told them about the blessing associated with their suffering. Matthew 10:34-42 deals with the mindset and actions that should be of the disciples and the reward to those who help them, when persecuted.
 
With this context in mind, let us look into Matthew 10:39, using one example and that example comes from Matthew 10:2-4. Both are in the same chapter. It seems that you ignored this context. From Matthew 10:4, we learn that Judas Iscariot was one of the disciples. He valued his life so much and wanted to save it with much money and comfort, while he was in this world. He stole the money from the purse that was entrusted to him and bought a piece of land. Then he went to the Jewish priests and asked for money to “deliver” Christ, because he knew that they wanted to kill Him. It is same Christ from whom he stole the money to buy the land. (We read about these in other portions of the Gospels.) He thought that he could find comfort of living in the land he bought, and with the money that he received from the priests. He found a way to save his earthly life from the actions of those who wanted to kill his Master and he knew how to receive favors from those persecutors, including money. He decided to deliver his Lord and Master for the comfort of this world. That was how he wanted to save his life. He left the Lord, to save his life, before the institution of the Lord’s Supper, into the night. He went away from the true Light that came into this world to lighten the world and to save sinners. He did not see another light of day. He committed suicide that night after he delivered the Lord and Master and received affirmation that the money that he had in his hand is his and no one will take it from him, including the persecutors. He thought that he saved his life with comfort and money, but lost his life, as written in Matthew 10:39. On the contrary, the eleven with all their shortcomings were with the Lord. They thought that they would lose their life and were afraid of the Jews - in whose mercy Judas Iscariot took refuge - who killed their Lord and Master. However, they took their cross and stood with their Master. Many may find fault with their actions of running away in fear, but they stood with Him. They took their cross and followed their Lord and Master, may be not too close. When they were hiding in fear of the Jews, they heard the words from their Lord and Master, “Peace be unto you” (Luke 24:36). They testified of their Lord and master without the fear of losing their life, on the day they received the power from above. They proclaimed that they have their life and more, the eternal life. We read this also in Matthew 10:39.
 
There are two aspects to the cross. To the world, the cross is what they give to persecute the Disciples of Christ who are called Christians by God. To a Christian, that cross is what is given by God to bear witness of the Son to the unbelieving world that is eager to persecute them, even to kill them. The extent of persecution includes losing ones life as we read in Matthew 10:39. In India, a few people gave their life to witness their Lord and master, even in the 21st century. The instant they were killed by the unbelieving world who is eager to persecute, those believers found their life in Christ being with Him and they enjoy the eternal life that they knew they had but they experienced it only when they are with the Lord. What the Lord told His disciples in Matthew 10:39 is still true to His disciples in the 21st century.
 
You wrote, “When I asked you to explain "Those who try to save his life by denying the Lord will receive their punishment, from the Lord." you said "Please read Matthew 10:32-33 and 2 Timothy 2:11-13." I believe that the denial of the Lord about any person who think that he is doing the Lord’s work, but enriches himself/herself (saved his/her life to live in comfort and luxury) by worldly means, is the greatest punishment that could be received by him/her. Especially, when he/she claims that he/she did wonders for Him and in His name. Please read 2 Timothy 2:11-13, especially verse 12.
 
Shalom Malekim!!!
Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page


Post reply Here

please login to continue..

Registered Users, Login below:

Username Password
Problem Login?

New User? Register Now

Forgot User Name or Password? Click Here

Go to top of the page

All times are GMT -5 Hours
Forums Home ::
© 2010 Sansnet.com



HOME