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Keralabrethren.net: General Forum: Can a Christian lose salvation?

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# 02166 :  Can a Christian lose salvation?

 

Dear Readers,
“Brethren” as a group believes in Eternal Security. But if I ask some such people, why they think their salvation is secure, some do stumble. Then, when some other  people bring out few verses here and there and start throwing serious doubts in the minds of them. I just happened to receive an email from the web-site “gotquestions.org” and I thought I should post it here. It seemed so timely with all the discussions going here. This is very concise and pointed addressing of this subject. This may not answer everything about it, but it will be a tool any believer should have it ready when questioned about their belief. I stand by what I am quoting, may not be verbatim but in a general sense.  See the quotes.
“Question: "Can a Christian lose salvation?"

Answer:
Before this question is answered, the term “Christian” must be defined. A “Christian” is not a person who has said a prayer, or walked down an aisle, or been raised in a Christian family. While each of these things can be a part of the Christian experience, they are not what “makes” a Christian. A Christian is a person who has, by faith, received and fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9).

So, with this definition in mind, can a Christian lose salvation? Perhaps the best way to answer this crucially important question is to examine what the Bible says occurs at salvation, and to study what losing salvation would therefore entail. Here are a few examples:

A Christian is a new creation. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17). This verse speaks of a person becoming an entirely new creature as a result of being “in Christ.” For a Christian to lose salvation, the new creation would have to be canceled and reversed.

A Christian is redeemed. “For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect” (1 Peter 1:18-19). The word “redeemed” refers to a purchase being made, a price being paid. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have to revoke His purchase that He paid for with the precious blood of Christ.

A Christian is justified. “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1). To “justify” means to “declare righteous.” All those who receive Jesus as Savior are “declared righteous” by God. For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and “un-declare” what He had previously declared.

A Christian is promised eternal life. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Eternal life is a promise of eternity (forever) in heaven with God. God promises, “Believe and you will have eternal life.” For a Christian to lose salvation, eternal life would have to be taken away. If a Christian is promised to live forever, how then can God break this promise by taking away eternal life?

A Christian is guaranteed glorification. “And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified” (Romans 8:30). As we learned in Romans 5:1, justification is declared at the moment of faith. According to Romans 8:30, glorification is guaranteed for all those whom God justifies. Glorification refers to a Christian receiving a perfect resurrection body in heaven. If a Christian can lose salvation, then Romans 8:30 is in error, because God could not guarantee glorification for all those whom He predestines, calls, and justifies.

Many more illustrations of what occurs at salvation could be shared. Even these few make it abundantly clear that a Christian cannot lose salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when we receive Jesus Christ as Savior would be invalidated if salvation could be lost. Salvation cannot be reversed. A Christian cannot be un-newly created. Redemption cannot be undone. Eternal life cannot be lost and still be considered eternal. If a Christian can lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and change His mind—two things that Scripture tells us God never does.

The most frequent objections to the belief that a Christian cannot lose salvation are 1) What about those who are Christians and continually live an immoral lifestyle? 2) What about those who are Christians but later reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem with these two objections is the phrase “who are Christians.” The Bible declares that a true Christian will not live a continually immoral lifestyle (1 John 3:6). The Bible declares that anyone who departs the faith is demonstrating that he never truly was a Christian (1 John 2:19). Therefore, neither objection is valid. Christians do not continually live immoral lifestyles, nor do they reject the faith and deny Christ. Such actions are proof that they were never redeemed.

No, a Christian cannot lose salvation. Nothing can separate a Christian from God’s love (Romans 8:38-39). Nothing can remove a Christian from God’s hand (John 10:28-29). God is both willing and able to guarantee and maintain the salvation He has given us. Jude 24-25, “To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.” [End of quotes.]
Your brother in Christ,
Tom Johns
Post by : tomj  View Profile    since : 15 Jul 2011


Reply by : mithun2   View Profile   Since : 15 Jul 2011 5:12:12 PM Close

Brother Tom J,

 1 John 2:19(NLT) -  These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us.

I have faced questions from many of my friends/colleagues about this verse.  There are certain sins which believers does not have an oppurtunity to regret /ask for forgiveness and come back to fellowship.  An example is SUICIDE.

Can believers suicide ? My answer is 'Yes'. As long as we live in this world,  we are temped to all sortsins.   God only cannot do sin.  

Will believers suicide ?  My answer is 'Probably Not.'

 But it is very hard for me to explain this verse related to the SINS that does not have any oppurtunity to regret and come back to fellowship.  Based on this verse, is it a right to conclude that  'All those who choose to suicide doesn't belong to God'  ?

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 18 Jul 2011 3:06:37 AM Close

Dear Mithun2,

I may elaborate on these later. Due to time constraints it will be brief for now.  

1 John 2:19 –In Vs. 18 we see the ‘Antichrist’ the individual. Then in 19 we see ‘antichrists’ [plural.] This means that these people are the ‘incarnation’ of evil and are working in opposition to God’s plan. They denied Jesus is the Christ.
They are not to be compared to someone who may disagree on issues such as ‘predestination’, security of salvation, pre/ post tribulation rapture, amillennialism, infant baptism [as long as it is NOT done for the removal of ‘inherited sin’ as some denominations teach] speaking in tongue etc. I am not suggesting continuous fellowship with all such people but labeling them as ‘antichrists’ would be too judgmental.[All I am saying here is that some may err on these issues and still be a born again person.]  
But if someone were to add any form of work in order to achieve salvation he/she is an ‘antichrist.’ In essence these are people who denied Jesus Christ and His work on the cross, His grace, His forgiving power. Such people, even if they had interaction and ‘fellowship’ with the rest of the faithful, they would depart the true fellowship either by God’s protective measures for His own or by the godly wisdom of the leaders in the early congregations.
I will write on the question on suicide in few days. For now, let me say that I would be very hesitant to label a person as ‘unredeemed’ [not a born again person] just because he/ she committed suicide. I will explain why.
Your brother in Christ,
Tom Johns           
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Reply by : sathyasnehi   View Profile   Since : 20 Jul 2011 8:59:58 AM Close

Dear Br.Tom Johns, 

I am reproducing below a passage from your original posting:

 

A Christian is redeemed. “For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect” (1 Peter 1:18-19). The word “redeemed” refers to a purchase being made, a price being paid. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have to revoke His purchase that He paid for with the precious blood of Christ.

 

From the above passage, it is understood that a person redeemed is one who has been purchased one i.e., a saved one. Then, in 2 Peter 2:1 we read :

 

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction”.

 

Here I am asking a question with all sincerity, not with any false intention that   

The false teachers mentioned were once bought (purchased) by the Lord. As they now become false teachers, a swift destruction is awaiting them. Also it is said in the following verses that their judgment now of along time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.  Please explain how to understand this.

 

Sathyasnehi

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 20 Jul 2011 2:58:11 PM Close

Dear 'sathyasnehi,'

How did you come to conclude that the false teachers are saved people?

This is a sincere question to find how you deduce that the false teachers are saved people.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 20 Jul 2011 3:23:37 PM Close

Dear Mr Koshy or Tom,

Could either of you comment on Heb 6:4,5 and 6, in regards to the security of salvation - For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Personally for me, I have had a hard time reconciling this verse, with the security of salvation that is clearly taught elsewhere. The difficulty for me is determining whether the peole mentioned as being "enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit" - whether they were previously "saved" or not. If they are not saved, why does it say "if they fall away"?

 

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Reply by : gmat30   View Profile   Since : 20 Jul 2011 4:00:46 PM Close

Bro GPK and Tomj,

Heb 6:4,5 and 6 - as quoted by Moses is also one of those verses which I wanted you to deal with as well.

Thanks

Mathew

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 20 Jul 2011 6:32:45 PM Close

 

Dear Moses & Mathew,
I am going to re-post this from my files with few minor changes. I remember posting this few years ago. If I am not mistaken Bro. Koshy also had posted on this subject before. But I hope he would also contribute [again] on this passage since this is an important one.
I am sure that all recognize this is one of the more difficult passages to deal with in regard to the permanence of salvation. What most people do not know is that verses 4-6 have a long sentence whose syntax (grammatical structure) is improperly represented in some of the translations. For instance, KJV, NKJV, NIV, and RSV add an “if” at the beginning of verse 6 (“if they fall away”). NASB and NRSV have corrected this but supply “then” (because the last item in the list is climactic) and render “and then fall away.” NASB has the “then” in italics, so we know that it is added by the translator. Malayalam also adds the condition (incorrectly) in this place by rendering “pinmaarippoyaal.”
 [I have verified the above comments with a recognized authority of Greek language that I frequently interact with and had studied under. This professor’s book is being used as an approved Greek grammar text in some of the US Seminaries and is increasingly getting popular here and Europe.]
If we follow the syntax more strictly, what the author of Hebrews says can be explained as follows:

It is impossible to renew (certain people) to repentance

(What sort of people?)

Those who (have had these experiences)
1. were once enlightened
2. tasted of the heavenly gift as well as became partakers of the Holy Spirit
3. tasted the good word of God as well as the powers of the coming age, and
4. fell away.
 
Those who cannot be renewed to repentance are those who have come to appreciate the gospel of Jesus Christ and conclude they do not want it. They would be in a hopeless position since they (by their rejection) themselves crucify the Lord again and hold him to public contempt—v. 6b (< this is what the unbelieving Jews did through the crucifixion, and any Hebrews who showed openness to the gospel but then reject it would be joining the part of Israel that rejected the Messiah).
 
I would not say that Hebrews 6 warns of the peril of falling away as people usually consider it. Hebrews 6 encourages those who have followed after Christ to persevere and move on to perfection/ completeness/ maturity. But it is possible that some before whom was presented the beginning of the teaching concerning the Messiah, such as repentance from dead works and faith, teaching about washings (it is “washings” not “baptisms”—most likely implications of Levitical practices, or against Pharasaic ritual washings), laying on of hands (again possible implication of instructions involved in the levitical offerings), resurrection from the dead and eternal judgment, may not move on to maturity. They have heard an exposition of the gospel, why we need Christ, how the OT prefigures Him etc. They may have been those who experienced the miracles of apostolic work, which prefigure the perfect age of the Messiah (powers of the age to come). Yet in view of persecution, they are reconsidering whether Jesus is worth the trouble. If after all this, they fall away, it is impossible to renew them to repentance since they have already decided they do not want Christ.
Let us now address the major focus of the usual question, which is, “In light of # 5 (cannot be renewed again to repentance), how can we say that this passage is dealing with non-believers? Their repentance seemed to be genuine because the writer is warning them that they could not be brought back to the original ‘repentance level.’” The text does not require that they had come to repentance. The statement, more exactly, is “It is impossible to renew them again, leading to repentance.” But the text does speak of something “again.” And, even by the way I presented it, it must mean they had been renewed once already. However, it is quite possible that the text should be understood to say, renew to repentance again. Either way, there is need for explanation.
 
The easiest way to deal with it is to say that even those who follow for some time before deciding permanently that they are not interested, did undergo some change, although transitory. Actually, it is easier to explain that since repentance is something about which we can repent. It addresses the human response which is subject to change. Not all repentance lead to commitment or obedience. Even in verse 1, repentance from dead works is referred to separately from faith in God (although they go together). Consider Ahab in the OT. He actually did repent in a certain way, but that did nothing for his soul, although it was such a response that God postponed the judgment He would bring on him (see 1Kings 20:25-29).
It is part of the language here that makes the teaching here somewhat tantalizing. It is like we say in Malayalam, “thoTTu thoTTilla,” almost, but not quite.
 
In regard to whether this passage teaches that a believer can be lost I would answer as follows: Yes, if you mean someone who professed faith and then turned away and did not want Christ any more. No, if you mean, a believer could commit a moral or such sin that makes him unsaveable or unforgivable.
 
Consider the following matters.
1. The issue here is perseverance, that is following Christ, rather than some sin putting us out of grace.
2. The people described in vv. 4-6 are compared in v. 8 to the earth that receives rain (their positive experiences stated in v. 4-5) but produce briars and thorns afterward (their response of rejecting of Christ). So whatever their experience, is like the rain. They are the field, and the response to that rain, is the issue.
3. Verse 9 reads, “But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.” Therefore, despite the warning that precedes, such an outcome is not for one who has salvation (for, if salvation can be lost, there is no guarantee of anything that accompanies salvation). So we may conclude that if there are such people as fit the description in the warning, they have not inherited salvation.
4. The passage also warns those who fall away that such falling away is permanent. So, it definitely is not a passage that may be used to teach that a believer can be saved and lost and saved and lost any number of times. If it is argued by the strength of these verses that a saved person can be lost, that person cannot be saved again.

5. The warning passages in Hebrews do challenge us to examine our commitment to Christ and persevere. It does affirm the teaching of the perseverance of the saints.
Your brother in Christ,
Tom Johns

 
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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 20 Jul 2011 6:37:29 PM Close

One other addition - I meant to underline the following and I failed to do it above.

4. The passage also warns those who fall away that such falling away is permanent. So, it definitely is not a passage that may be used to teach that a believer can be saved and lost and saved and lost any number of times. If it is argued by the strength of these verses that a saved person can be lost, that person cannot be saved again.

Thank you.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 20 Jul 2011 6:39:39 PM Close

 

Dear ‘moses2006,’ and Brother Mathew,
 
I should explain why I addressed both of you differently. Years ago, ‘moses2006’ has admitted that it is not his name. If I do not know the name of a person, I address him/her as a person, by the ID. If the authors sign-off their posting and have communicated as a believer, then I will address him as a brother or her as a sister.
 
I wish to consider the verses in their context. That is at least from Hebrew 6:1 and ending at verse 12. I leave it to the readers to read those verses from their Bibles.
 
In verse 4, there are two things to indicate that those under consideration were partakers of the Holy Spirit. First, they were once enlightened. Second, they tasted the heavenly gift. The Jewish Christians were brought to the earthly shadow of the children of Israel in the wilderness. The spiritual reality is given in verse 5.
 
If there is concern about the above statements, let us visit the first three verses. We read about laying a different foundation, beginning with repentance from dead works, faith in God, doctrine of washing, imposition of hands, resurrection of the dead, and the eternal judgment. The author of the epistle also wrote that these doctrines are fundamental and we already hold them. The question is who are trying to lay them again as a foundation of faith. The foundation is laid only once and not repeatedly. If we try to lay foundation for the same house repeatedly, whenever there is a flaw, then no one could build the house. The foundation is laid only once and the house is built on it. No repeated or different foundations are to be laid.
 
Laying of the foundation repeatedly in our faith is like laying the foundation of the house repeatedly and not proceeding to build the house, building, fort, etc. It is impossible for a true believer in Christ to renew again to the initial state of repentance. We are not to visit the cross, but preach the cross and to grow in Christ. If they insist, then they are crucifying the Son of God, themselves. The Son of God was crucified once and a believer came to Him at the cross when they initially believed. Those who try to build on a new foundation have to crucify Christ again, and again, and again. This is the underlying teaching of those who deny the eternal security of salvation, even after they read that Christ is the “author of eternal salvation” (Hebrews 5:9). In the original, there was no chapter division and what we know as chapter-5 was the context in which what is in chapter-6 was written.
 
If we consider Hebrews 6:4-6, in their context, then we would realize that it is not about conversion or forgiveness. However, it is about the enjoyment of the privileges into which we are brought into. It is also about the falling away from such privileges. If any does it, then it is hopeless situation for them to return to the former state. Please read about the true believes in Hebrews 6:7-12.
 
The Scripture provides many examples. One is that of Abraham and Lot. Lot enjoyed the blessings that were promised and given to Abraham. It ended when he left Abraham and went to live in Sodom, as if he had a new beginning. Lot hopelessly lived and died, though he was righteous in Sodom. However, Abraham did not fall away from God. He enjoyed his position before God having eternal security. Another example is the Egyptians that went out of Egypt with the children of Israel. All they did was to be a snare to the children of Israel for the rest of their history. That did not made the children of Israel to go back to Egypt and start from there with observing the Passover. King Solomon was drawn away from Jehovah with the many wives he took from the nations. Those wives did not become children of Israel; they had their own religion within the earthly boundaries of Israel. I hope you could enlarge this list.
 
Shalom Malekim!!!
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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 21 Jul 2011 2:07:57 AM Close

Dear Sathyasnehi,
You wrote –
“From the above passage, it is understood that a person redeemed is one who has been purchased one i.e., a saved one. Then, in 2 Peter 2:1 we read :
 
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction”.
 
While you are trying to answer Bro. Koshy’s questions, let me shed some lights into the passage under discussion.   
 
Have you ever thought that Peter could have been using the word ‘bought’ for special emphasis acknowledging the primary purpose of Jesus Christ’s coming to this world? The death of Jesus Christ is sufficient to redeem ALL mankind. But all mankind is NOT redeemed.
 
‘Denying the Master’ is a phrase that exposes the depth of the crime and guilt of the false teachers in an analogical sense [in an analogy sense or manner.] Here the Lord is the Master of the house. These false teachers as the Master’s slaves/ servants, considering their ultimate responsibility. Only to this sense that word ‘bought’ can be applied.
 
Also, here are some other passages you can look into.

 “Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.” John 4:42 – Christ is the Savior of the world! Yet, is He the Savior of the whole world? If so, no one will end up in hell.
 
“God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:19 – Did Christ reconcile the world to Himself? Yes, yet not the whole world.
 Rom 11:15 – “For their {Israel} rejection is the reconciliation of the world.” – Now you see the pattern, don’t you?
“This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.” 1 Tim 1:15 – Same thing we see here also.
When we study something, study it in its context and in what sense the words or phrases are used and how are they in accordance with other scriptures. These are some of the crucial ways we analyze scriptural passages.
Your brother in Christ,
Tom Johns
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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 21 Jul 2011 6:06:08 AM Close

 

Dear Moses 2006 & Mathew
 
The subject of Hebrew 6 & 10 had been discussed in the moderated forum titled “Apostasy” which can seen in the following thread, there are 3 pages.
 
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Reply by : tyt   View Profile   Since : 23 Jul 2011 1:09:21 AM Close


“He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels”. (Revelation 3:5)

What does this phrase mean? “Blot out his name from the Book of Life”? Does it mean a believer will lose his salvation? It is worth looking at the context in Revelation 3:5. The focus is assurance. If God were to constantly erase the names and re-write those names perhaps he would have more job on that than doing any thing else. Jesus is not a busy eraser sitting in heaven. He is sitting on the right of the Father pleading on our behalf.

Moses said to the Lord: Yet now, if You will forgive their sin; but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written. (Exodus 32:32)
And the LORD said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.” (Exodus 32:33)
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. (Psalm 69:28)
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. (Revelation 3:5)

And if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (Revelation 22:19)

There was a great believer by name Charles Templeton. He was an associate of Dr. Billy Graham in his early years. Recently he wrote a book called "Farewell to God : my reasons for rejecting the Christian faith", where he totally denounced his belief in Jesus Christ and denounced his confession of faith. You can debate day in and day out whether he lost his salvation!

By the way, I feel below my dignity to be called as Brother by George P. Koshy;  hence I am writing my Id. He may not even address me as “Dear”!

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Reply by : sathyasnehi   View Profile   Since : 23 Jul 2011 4:29:55 AM Close

Dear tyt,

On  reading the first Para of your posting I have a question for you. Jesus will confess the name of the over comers before His father and their names will not be blotted out from the book of life.  Then, if a believer denies Christ at one stage (according to Matt 10:33 & 2 Timo 2;12), will Christ confess their name too before Father, keeping their name in tact in the book of life?

Sathyasnehi

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Reply by : tyt   View Profile   Since : 23 Jul 2011 10:40:04 AM Close

 

Dear Satyasnehi,

 

Keep aside Bible for some time and think about your own family. No offence is meant, but this is just for explanation.

 

Suppose you have two children; one obedient and another disobedient. They are both your children you see! Your wife keeps pleading with you on behalf of the second one that you may not cast him away from home. What would you do? Do you cast him out of home? Loving father will not do that but tolerate what the rebellious child does and accept him when he becomes obedient. Until then he turns his face away from his disobedient child. The disobedient child will learn one day or the other that he was wrong and becomes obedient.

In the same way if the child of God goes away from God, at some point of time he comes back. It may be after facing sickness or through some compulsion he will certainly come back to God and there is again his place back with God.

 

There are many accusations against Dr. Billy Graham including the links you have shown. They are all false. He is man of God. Likewise Charles Templeton will come back to God when he is at the end of his life.

 

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 23 Jul 2011 1:27:49 PM Close

Shame on people who spread malicious, speculative, unfounded, satanic lies about a man who preached and lived a full life according to the message of the gospel! Shame on people who get on the bandwagon and keep on spreading these gossips! When do we start seeing the good in people who are redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ? I didnot open that link. I would not want to see what nonsense is written there. It could be nothing more than malicious & idiotic gossips. Stop these ridiculous stanic insinuations!!

Tom Johns

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Reply by : sathyasnehi   View Profile   Since : 26 Jul 2011 5:02:44 AM Close

Dear tyt, 

Your answer is not spiritual, rather sentimental.  If you can post your email ID, I will write to you personally in this regard.

 

Sathyasnehi

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 26 Jul 2011 7:01:27 AM Close

Dear Satyasnehi

 

What “tyt” written is correct if one is born in a family in whatever situation their status of son or daughter never changes. If one is born in God’s family that status never changes, if someone is disobedient he will go through the process of chastisement.

I wrote and ask you this question in the other thread but you did not responded, “what is the purpose of chastisement?

Heb 12:5  And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Heb 12:6  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Heb 12:7  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

 

Job 5:17  Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:

 

 

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Reply by : sathyasnehi   View Profile   Since : 26 Jul 2011 7:27:19 AM Close

Dear Sambudhanoor,

Of late, I use to ask only questions just to know the views of others on certain spiritual issues.  I hesitate to give my explanation on any subject as it may irk a few and they will look at my statements as polemic. Moreover this thread has been started to propagate eternal security doctrine.  So my writing may cause some trouble for them.

 

However I can answer your questions, for which please allow me some time since I am preoccupied with my office work. On receipt of your confirmation, I will write to you after a few days.

 

Sathyasnehi

 

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 26 Jul 2011 8:05:59 AM Close

Dear Satyasnehi

 

As this is an open discussion forum you have all the freedom to write your opinion in a spiritual perspective.

Nobody needs to propagate the “Eternal Security of Salvation” as this is already propagated and confirmed by the Word of God.

Your answer is welcomed.

As you are believes in conditional security of salvation:

1.     What are the conditions to keep?

2.     If one fails to keep the conditions, he/she loses the salvation, is it       possible to regain it and lose it again, how long this process can         continue?

3.     Even if we are redeemed children of God, we are still living in this fallen      body, how long one can keep the conditions intact?

4.     If one separate from his body (death) or our Lord’s arrival at mid-air,         anybody can say that he is a saved one?

5.     What is the purpose of chastisement, as stated in the previous post?

 

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 26 Jul 2011 1:57:00 PM Close

Dear 'sathyasnehi,'

You wrote on 26 Jul 2011, "I hesitate to give my explanation on any subject as it may irk a few and they will look at my statements as polemic."  How misleading you are in your writings!  Earlier, you started a thread to establish your teaching, and on that thread you posted 13 points for others to clarify.  You wanted your points to be clarified by one of us, because you did not know what they were.  When I asked to take them one by one, you tried to change the subject.  When I asked you to keep to the subject, you wrote that there was an 'eternal security' (ES) fruit in the Garden of Eden and Adam ate that.  Your explanations are rooted is untruthfulness.  If not, why don't you start on the first or the second point of your thread from the 13 points?

If you do not want to, tell us that you do not want to.  I will consider that as you do not have answers to your own teachings.  If you think you could answer, why don't you answer my question that I placed on 20 Jul 2011?  That question is, "How did you come to conclude that the false teachers are saved people?  This is a sincere question to find how you deduce that the false teachers are saved people."  I asked this question as a sincere question, because you wrote that you were sincere in your postings.  If you are sincere, you should begin to answer as a sincere person.

Shalom Malekim!!!

 

 

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Reply by : sathyasnehi   View Profile   Since : 27 Jul 2011 4:24:09 AM Close

"How did you come to conclude that the false teachers are saved people?  This is a sincere question to find how you deduce that the false teachers are saved people."

Dear GPK,

 

My expectation from the explanation I asked for in my posting dt. 20 Jul 2011 08:59:58 was that why should not we call the false teachers bought by the Lord as saved ones, according to the passage reproduced in my posting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sathyasnehi

 

 

 

                        

 

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 27 Jul 2011 2:25:45 PM Close

 

Dear ‘sathyasnehi,’
 
Let me quote what you wrote on 20 Jul 2011, “Here I am asking a question with all sincerity, not with any false intention that The false teachers mentioned were once bought (purchased) by the Lord. As they now become false teachers, a swift destruction is awaiting them. Also it is said in the following verses that their judgment now of along time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. Please explain how to understand this.” What you wrote was, “… The false teachers mentioned were once bought (purchased) by the Lord.”  This statement you made with all sincerity and without any false intention. That is, the false teachers were saved by the Lord. After that you wrote, “As they now become false teachers,….” So far, we have not come to your question, but we are in the preliminary staging of the seed for intentional and insincere manipulation of the mind of the readers and the Word of God. To this I asked, “How did you come to conclude that the false teachers are saved people?”  You did not answer my question, but I asked about it on 26 Jul 2011 and this is what you wrote, “My expectation from the explanation I asked for in my posting dt. 20 Jul 2011 08:59:58 was that why should not we call the false teachers bought by the Lord as saved ones, according to the passage reproduced in my posting.”  You made a statement on 20 Jul 2011, about saved people becoming false teachers. When I asked about it you have a different take. You did not ask about “should we call” or “should not we call” on 20 Jul 2011, but on 27 Jul 2011 you state that that is what you wrote. What you wrote was, “The false teachers mentioned were once bought (purchased) by the Lord. As they now become false teachers, …”  Why are you changing what you wrote, when I asked you for an explanation?
 
Your answer on 27 Jul 2011 to my question is not truthful. If you are a sincere ‘lover of truth,’ (SATHYASNEHI), then you should not do such misrepresentation. Please answer my question, “How did you come to conclude that the false teachers are saved people?”
 
Shalom Malekim!!!
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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 27 Jul 2011 6:38:49 PM Close

Dear Mr. Koshy,

I can see you are back to playing word games with a person of lesser scriptural knowledge than you. From the way I read the question from 'sathyasnehi' I think he is saying that "bought by the Lord" = "saved by the Lord". This was evident from his very first post. Yet, this is now your 3rd or 4th post asking him to explain how the false teachers are saved people!!!

I am a firm believer in the eternal security of salvation of those who are called by God. If you know what Jude is talking about in this verse, or you can see from your level that 'sathyasnehi' is making an error (whether by commision or by ommision), why don't you just help the poor believer to see what the error is? What do you gain by playing games with his statements?

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Reply by : tyt   View Profile   Since : 27 Jul 2011 7:11:57 PM Close


Yea, that is the problem with that gentleman. He always tries to win argument by hook or crook or by accusing or abusing in polished way although he is not good at English. He tries to take readers for a ride with his greek knowledge, who knows if it is fake or real because he never quotes Strong's numbers.

Dear Satyasnehi,

This is reply to your post.  First of all, dear, you should approach Scriptures with a positive attitude and with hope that you have in Christ.  Take the case of Adam, the first man. Eventhough he transgressed God loved him and clothed him skin. He chastised him by throwing away from the Garden of Eden. Did you see if Adam was cursed or the earth was cursed for him? Just look at the Scriptures.  Bible says God is love. How could you ever think that the loving God will keep blotting out the names of his followers. He will chastise even upto the level of causing extreme pain in the body or with huge loss in health or wealth. It is at that point of time that the believer will come back to God. Salvation is received only when the sin is fully paid off and Jesus paid the price for it.on the Cross. One of the seven sayings of Jesus on the Cross is: "It is finished". He has accomplished everything he needs to do to give us salvation. Do you think he shed his precious blood in vain that he would erase and re-write the names of those believers who may commit sins in their daily life?  How busy should be God to erase and re-write the names in that case? Frankly, I commit at least one sin a day; you know lusting after a woman is equivalent to having committed adultery already.

Please read these Scriptures:
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. (Romans 11:6)
If you read this verse you get easily confused:
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:6)
But the answer is right there.
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. (Hebrews 6:9-10)
For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, (Hebrews 6:13)

Look at the context under which your question about Matthew 10:33 is:

But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 10:30-33)

But the answer is right there.

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. (Matthew 10:34)

Look at the context your question from 2 Timothy 2:12 is; the answer is right there in verse 13

It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. (2 Timothy 2:11-13)

Few other scriptues that may help you are:

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:37-39)

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:5-10)

Some scriptures that cause confusion are:
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Here Jesus was clearly saying about those who are never saved. Your questions also deal mainly with those who are not saved. Do you need any more assurance than the words of Jesus himself? Read on..
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:29)

 

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 27 Jul 2011 7:22:01 PM Close

Dear 'moses2006,'

I am not playing games.  I am asking for clarification to statement that made by 'sathyasnehi' to the effect that false teachers are saved people.  Which he could give, if he has an answer.  Show me what was the "word game," if I used it.  You do not have to explain as you did, ""bought by the Lord" = "saved by the Lord". "  My question itself is a witness that I already took it as I understood and am not questioning the expression.

Let me also say that expressions are what many false teachers use and hide behind.  Asking for clarification of expressions is not a word game, but it is asking for clarifications.  Please do not bring 'errors of commission and omission,' into this discussion.  In reality, all 'errors of omission' are some kind of 'errors of commission,' because while committing the error they omitted something.  The omitting was an act of committing the error.  You are trying to use 'word games' by introducing 'errors of commission and omission.'  We do not have to do any word game.  Just explain what we write, if asked for it.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : tyt   View Profile   Since : 27 Jul 2011 7:57:59 PM Close

 

Greek transliterated word with Strong’s number 59 for bought is: agorazo

 

It is used in several verses. Two conflicting areas where this word is misundersood:

 

For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. (1 Corinthians 6:20)

 

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Peter 2:1)

 

The Greek word is "apwleian" (can’t print the exact Script) --a word which means properly to market, to buy, to purchase, and then to redeem, or acquire for one's self a by price paid, or by a ransom. It is rendered buy or bought in the following places in the New Testament: Mt 13:44; 14:15; 21:12; 25:9; 27:7; Mr 6:36; 11:15; 15:46; 16:1; Lu 9:13; 14:18; 17:28; 19:45; 22:36; Joh 4:8; 6:5; 13:29; 1Co 7:30; Re 3:18; 13:17; 18:11,

 

1Co 6:20; 7:23, "Ye are bought with a price;" and in the following places it is rendered redeemed that is ‘saved’

 

Even denying the Lord that bought them.  Here is means that they held doctrines that deny the Lord, but not they denied the Lord, or his existence, his power or his attributes.

 

All “errors of omission” can never be “errors of commission” Who says so?  While committing error if one were to omit something that the error is not complete in itself, which itself proves that it is not an error!  Ommissions are usually inadvertent failure to insert or mention as the omission of a word or clause – it is just leaving out without any intention to leave it. It is not deliberate.


 

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Reply by : tyt   View Profile   Since : 27 Jul 2011 10:10:14 PM Close

 

Dear Satyasnehi,

You misuderstood this verse.

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Peter 2:1)

Jesus paid his blood as the price for salvation for every one in the world. "Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men". (1 Corinthians 7:23)

But according to John 3:16 those who believe in him shall have everlating life and those who do not believe in him shall perish. The verses you quote are about those who are not saved in spite of Jesus paying the price. A person may believe in the price paid or not believe in the price paid by Jesus. That is what 2 Peter 2:1 talks about. It talks about those who are not saved even though the price paid by Jesus includes them. They have adopted false doctrines and the verse talks about such teaching of false doctrines.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

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Reply by : sathyasnehi   View Profile   Since : 28 Jul 2011 4:39:18 AM Close

Dear tyt, 

It thrills me to read ‘Moses2006’ posting. He goes straight away to the core point of a person’s question and rightly reads the mind of the questioner.

 

Then I have to thank you that you have taken time to answer me.  Of the last two postings addressed to me, the first one is somewhat long.  My time is limit as I am in a secular job and I do not have online connection in my PC at home.  I am pondering over what you have written and I will write to you for further explanations, if time permits.

 

Sathyasnehi

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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 28 Jul 2011 2:59:42 PM Close

Dear 'sathyasnehi'

Just because I am not in favour with the techniques used by Mr. Koshy, does not mean that I disgree with the doctrine he has written - eternal security of a true born again child of God. Please do not be mistaken in thinking that there are others who support you, without examining your statements in the light of the Word of God.

This is my explanation of 2 Pet 2:1 -

False teachers and false prophets were seen among the Israelites, and will also likewise be seen in the church. These false teachers will bring heresies into the church, which is why they are called "false" teachers. Now the expression "even denying the Lord who bought them" should be understood as "denying the very Lord, who they claim, bought them".

It is in the best interest of the false teacher to claim that they also are "bought" by the same Lord who bought the rest of the church. This basic premise is what has given them the platform to teach in the church. To deny being bought by the Lord Jesus, would be foolhardy ot their objective of spreading their heresy. But their heresy is of such wickedness that, while they claim to be bought by the Lord Jesus, their heresy also undermines the diety and denies the lordship of Jesus. By spreading such heresy, they reveal the truth about themselves - that they are not saved, not born from above and never bought by the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Lord Jesus said in Matt 7:

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

I hope this explanation helps you to understand 2 Pet 2:1.

 

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Reply by : sathyasnehi   View Profile   Since : 29 Jul 2011 4:03:05 AM Close

Dear moses 2006,

I know very well that you are an ardent follower of ES.  What I have mentioned about you is you have rightly understood my question.  I do not expect that we two are going  in accord doctrinally. 

Thank you

 

Sathyasnehi

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 29 Jul 2011 1:56:31 PM Close

 

Dear ‘sathyasnehi,’
 
Why don’t you answer my question, “How did you come to conclude that the false teachers are saved people?”
 
Let me write the following, in the hope that it will open the eyes of a few about the techniques used by those who want to introduce that which is unscriptural, but giving the appearance of it being scriptural. They follow the path of hypothesis testing. They will propose a statement, as you did on 20 Jul 201, “Here I am asking a question with all sincerity, not with any false intention that The false teachers mentioned were once bought (purchased) by the Lord. As they now become false teachers, a swift destruction is awaiting them. Also it is said in the following verses that their judgment now of along time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. Please explain how to understand this.” This may have the appearance of sincerity and spirituality. The intention is to give an unscriptural idea the same status as that is revealed in the Scriptures, the Word of God. In your hypothesis there are a few things that are unscriptural and anyone who engages in a discussion accept the premise, “The false teachers mentioned were once bought (purchased) by the Lord. As they now become false teachers,…”  I asked for your explanation before engaging in a discussion, but there are others who are eager and willing to engage in a discussion and accusing me of various things that I did not do.
 
Let us look into your presupposition that is to be presumed to be true. I could see more than one instance such a hypothesis testing was proposed in the Word of God. I wish to consider two instances from the Scriptures:
 
The first time it was done was by Satan when he questioned the Word of God with the hypothesis, “Is it so, that God has said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden?” The place where this unscriptural hypothesis was proposed and tested was in the Garden of Eden. The proposer of the hypothesis was Satan, and it had the appearance of being quoted from God’s words. The hypothesis was about eating food. The willing person to conduct that hypothesis testing, with an equal status, to what God said to Adam was the Woman. She was the self-appointed investigator of the first hypothesis testing that was conducted on this earth.  We know the rest of the story from Genesis 3. The Woman did not ask Satan, the proposer of the hypothesis, about the source of the presumptions in the hypothesis that was put forward. The alternate hypothesis was that which was revealed to Adam by God, and it was before the creation of the Woman. We learn this from Genesis 2. The whole human race was the subject on which the first hypothesis was tested. There was no sampling plan to be used for the testing of the hypothesis that was opined by Satan. The first man, the first Adam, submitted to the idea of equating which was from the mouth of the Enemy with that which came from the mouth of God.
 
The second time a similar hypothesis was proposed by the same Satan and it was to the second Man, the last Adam, Lord Jesus Christ. Lord Jesus Christ, being the Son, did not equate what came from the mouth of Satan, thought it also had the appearance of quoting from the Word of God. He met Satan’s proposed hypothesis with the statement, “It is also written…” The hypothesis proposed by Satan to the Son was also about food.  This time, there was no hypothesis testing by equating Satan’s hypothesis and the underlying presuppositions at equality with the Word of God. Satan was defeated by making the Word of God superior to the proposed hypothesis to be tested. We read about this in Matthew 4 and Luke 4.
 
Let me come back to your proposed hypothesis of 20 Jul 2011. You had a presupposition, “The false teachers mentioned were once bought (purchased) by the Lord. As they now become false teachers,…”  You wanted your hypothesis based on this presupposition to have equal status with what is given in the Word of God as “Eternal Salvation.” In another thread I provided many verses from the Scriptures that tell us that this salvation is eternal and not sporadic or conditional for you to make-up a hypothesis to test “conditional security” or “sporadic security” against “eternal security” or “unconditional security.” Those who are engaged in a discussion without proper clarification are those who have no quam to equate what is unscriptural with Scriptural. I will not equate unscriptural with that which is Scriptural. That which is unscriptural should be inferior to what is Scriptural all the time, without exception. I will ask for clarification and explanation. This I did and you are silent.
 
Therefore, I ask you again, “How did you come to conclude that the false teachers are saved people?” Without such an explanation to clarify your presumption, your question remains to be a hypothesis that has the appearance of being taken from the Word of God, while it is generated with outside help.
 
You should provide references from the Scriptures.
 
Shalom Malekim!!!
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Reply by : sathyasnehi   View Profile   Since : 30 Jul 2011 4:09:55 AM Close

Dear GPK, 

I am thinking of replying to Br.tyt’s posting dt.27.7.11 and you will get the answer for your question therein.

 

Sathyasnehi

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Reply by : sathyasnehi   View Profile   Since : 30 Jul 2011 6:24:05 AM Close

Dear GPK, 

I do not know you, Moses2006 or tyt personally and I do not have any intention to be in the camp of anybody else. Also, I am entirely different from you all doctrinally. Please note that I do not have any hate against you personally.  Though there might have been some heated word exchange in the other thread, I ended the discussion with you there (02162-Pg.dt. 14 Jul 2011 06:36:25) with heartfelt Christian love. And now I take much care not to hurt any one by my words.

 

On reading your above posting, it seems that a kind of bitterness has developed.  My general request to all who are involving with me in this discussion ( I will not continue questioning hereafter, but finally answering to Brs.Sambudhanoor & tyt) is that we should not take the bitterness to enmity. I take the warning of 1 John 3:15 seriously. An unresolved hate will cause spiritual damage.

 

Then one thing regarding your question “How did you come to conclude that the false teachers are saved people?” As a conditional security adherent, it is not a surprise or wrong if I conclude so. What my conclusion is not at all a mater. My question purports only to know how ES proponents are viewing 2 Peter 2:1.  When your answer establishes the truth, then naturally, my conclusion becomes void. However, you will get my answer how  I could arrive at my conclusion, when I reply to tyt.

 

Sathyasnehi

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 1 Aug 2011 12:12:14 PM Close

Dear 'sathyasnehi,'

I am interested in your answer.  As you say that you are an adherent of "conditional security," what is your explanation of 1 Peter 2:1?  You have not given any, but you wrote to the effect that false teachers were saved once.  How did you come to this conclusion?  Was that conclusion necessary to establish your 'conditional security?'  You have shown that it was necessary to hold on to a teaching of 'eternal security fruit' (ES fruit) that Satan enticed the Woman in the Garden of Eden.  You have not told us how you came to know that either.

If you are sincere in asking the question, then you should answer the questions posed to you.  I have written before, and I write again, that I am willing to go through each of your 13 points that you raised on the other thread.  One of the thirteen points is using 2 Peter 2:1.  However, you have to do some work too.  It will not be a one sided writing.

I have no bitterness, and I have not used any of the expressions that you used against me.  It is a common tendency that when people find it difficult to justify their statements from the Scriptures, they resort to accuse others like me being bitter or something like that.  It is a clever ploy to intimidate the one who stands on the Word of God.  Liberals use this technique in politics against the conservatives.  Without resorting to those techniques, could you answer?

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : sathyasnehi   View Profile   Since : 2 Aug 2011 6:58:27 AM Close

Dear GPK,

First, I have to send my reply to Br.Sambudhanoor which I have not yet prepared. Then, as I have already said, you will get my answer for 2 Peter 2:1 when I reply to Br.tyt.  To read that, you have to wait for some time.

My comparison of ES with forbidden fruit is a figurative expression.  Any discerning person, whether agreeing with or not, can easily understand such expression and will not make it a matter of argument with the person expressed so.  Anyway, as you are repeatedly asking, let me explain simply.  ES doctrine says that a person once saved will never die spiritually.  An opponent to this, I compare this statement with Satan saying  ‘ Ye shall not surely die’.  For me, since ES doctrine is an evil, it has to be rejected as God asked Adam to reject the forbidden fruit. You are at all the liberty to oppose my comparison, but need not go on asking for the details from me every time.

Sathyasnehi

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 2 Aug 2011 2:20:57 PM Close

Dear 'sathyasnehi,'

You wrote, "ES doctrine says that a person once saved will never die spiritually. An opponent to this, I compare this statement with Satan saying  ‘ Ye shall not surely die’. For me, since ES doctrine is an evil, it has to be rejected as God asked Adam to reject the forbidden fruit. You are at all the liberty to oppose my comparison, but need not go on asking for the details from me every time."  I have to ask you to substantiate your claims against the Scriptures, and that I have to do that all the time you make such a claim.  You should not make statements against what is in the Bible and say that others should not ask for Scriptural support for them.

In the other thread, you wrote against eternal security of believers.  On this thread you are writing against the eternal security of salvation, which is in opposition to what is written as spoken by the Son, Lord Jesus Christ, in John 10:27-30.  After contradicting Lord Jesus Christ, you say that others should accept what you write.  You also indicate that if they do not agree , then they should not ask for scriptural support, the written and inspired Word of God.  Are you greater than the Lord Jesus Christ to contradict Him?

My question on the last paragraph is a mute one, because you have already quoted what Satan said as more valuable to your position than what God said that Adam will die on the day he eats the forbidden fruit.  You also made that forbidden fruit the eternal security fruit (ES fruit)!  Therefore, my question is mute when it is addressed to you.

I will wait a week to hear your explanation on 2 Peter 2:1.  One week is more than enough for a person who posted 13 points, of which 2 Peter 2:1 was one of them, to establish the conditional security of believers.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : mithun2   View Profile   Since : 4 Aug 2011 4:56:04 PM Close

 Dear Brother Tom J,

I am waiting to hear from you regarding the question on suicide.

Thanks

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 5 Aug 2011 7:02:26 PM Close

Dear Mithun2,

I am sorry for the long delay. I posted an answer in a separate thread. I pray that it would be useful.

Your brother in Christ,

Tom Johns

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Reply by : orebro   View Profile   Since : 28 Oct 2011 8:40:35 PM Close

I have been a pentecostal believer over 50 years. I do not see anything wrong with the Brethren doctrine of "eternal security" of the believers. In fact it is not a brethren doctrine. It is a Biblical Doctrine that all who are in Christ are eternally saved and that such chritians  would not keep on living a sinful life.

George Betel

nedumkannni@live.se

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Reply by : sathyasnehi   View Profile   Since : 31 Oct 2011 4:59:17 AM Close

A true Christian can turn a willful sinner:

The sinner mentioned in 1 Cori 5:1 was continuing in the sin which is not even named among the gentiles. Because of his willful sinning, Paul calls him a wicked person.

King Solomon chosen by God turned willful sinner and he never repented till the end of his life.

When we read Heb 10:26 we can see the writer warns “ For if we sin willfully…” and by reading this, we understand that we can willfully sin which means we can keep on living a sinful life.

Sathyasnehi

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 1 Nov 2011 7:44:35 AM Close

1 Cor 5:1 Person is believer in Christ Apostle Paul himself stated that and he called him an evil person, yes a person in Christ can do this type of evil works. Apostle Paul judged him to physical death (which is an ultimate act of Chastisement), this is what we see in 1Cor 11: 29 - 30, also.

 

1Co 5:5  deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

But his Salvation remains intact, because it is eternal.

 

The same person had been restored because of his repentance, as seen in 2 Cor 2: 6-11

 

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

Heb 5:9  And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

 

Heb 9:15  And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

 

Heb 9:12  Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

 

Joh 5:24  "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

 

Joh 10:27  My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Joh 10:28  And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

 

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Reply by : avoid_legalism   View Profile   Since : 1 Nov 2011 9:29:50 PM Close

A true Christian can turn a willful sinner:

The sinner mentioned in 1 Cori 5:1 was continuing in the sin which is not even named among the gentiles. Because of his willful sinning, Paul calls him a wicked person.
King Solomon chosen by God turned willful sinner and he never repented till the end of his life.
When we read Heb 10:26 we can see the writer warns “ For if we sin willfully…” and by reading this, we understand that we can willfully sin which means we can keep on living a sinful life.
Sathyasnehi

Br. Sathyasnehi, do you sin?  If so, is it wilful?  Or do you not sin anymore?  I am not asking to be argumentative, but seriously.

So, what happens if you sin willfully and then die.  For example, if the speed limit on a particular road is 60 miles per hour, and you drive 70 mph, but then you die without opportunity for repentence and/or confession, what happens?

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Reply by : sathyasnehi   View Profile   Since : 2 Nov 2011 6:49:48 AM Close

In my posting I did not take up the subject of salvation for discussion.  Mr. George Betel at the end of his posing has stated that saved Christians would not keep on living a sinful life. As an objection to his statement, I have written quoting bible verses that Christians can keep on living a sinful life. The sinner in 1 Cori 15:1 committed the sin not just for only once, but was continuing in that sin.  King Solomon is a clear example for a person who has been once godly can turn a willful sinner and ended up an unrepented.  Now, I hope Mr.GB can accept my objection.

Regarding the question of salvation of this sinner, if willing, one can read what I have written in detail in the thread ‘Purpose of chastisement’ to know about this sinner and his salvation.   Delivering one to the destruction of flesh is not for physical death.  This is absolutely wrong and this sinner never died physically as a chastisement.  Even, righteous Job experienced this destruction of flesh (but for a different purpose of God).  Destruction in flesh is not a physical death.

What is ultimately required for a willful sinner is his repentance.  The sinner of 1 Cori 5:1 repented at last as we read in 2 Cori 2:6-11. This repentance will only keep one saved before God.  King Solomon did not have this repentance till the end of his life.

 

Heb 2:1, 2;  Heb 3:6;  Heb 3:14;  Heb 4:1, 11;  Col 1;23;  Eph 5:6, 7

 

Sathyasnehi

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Reply by : sathyasnehi   View Profile   Since : 2 Nov 2011 6:51:38 AM Close

Dear Br.avoid-legalism,

I don’t know how seriously you are looking into Heb 10:26 & 27. First I want to say that Scripture clearly speaks of two types of sin. One is a sin unto death and the other is a sin not unto death (1John 5:16). Another point I want to say is falling into a sin is different from practicing a sin.  Practicing a sin is called a willful sin. The sinner in 1 Cori 5:1 and King Solomon were willful sinners and the sin they committed were unto death. If you say that trespassing a speed limit while driving on road is a sin unto death(spiritual), then no hope for you and you have to be repenting every time and every day in your life.

You have mentioned a time factor in your posting. That is, you have asked whether a believer will loose his salvation, if he dies immediately after committing a sin without a time for repentance. This may be a rarest of rare occurrences in one’s life. This is only your presumption.  What I believe is death of a person is in the hands of God.  If a Christian commits a sin unto death, God will definitely give a chance to repent. Even an allowance of one minute time is sufficient for repenting, when Holy Spirit speaks to a sinner.  Presumptuous questions will not nullify the TRUTH       

 

Sathyasnehi

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 3 Nov 2011 11:17:45 AM Close

Dear satyasnehi

 

I fully endorse the remarks of George Betel”

 It is a Biblical Doctrine that all who are in Christ are eternally saved and that such chritians  would not keep on living a sinful life.”

 

Keep on living a sinful life, he/she has to repent and re-instate, or God will not allow to stay in that position, this is what we are seen in the person of 1 Cor 5, he has been re-instated, this we can see in 1Cor. 11: 29-30 also.

 

I do not want your explanation above 1Cor.5, as you indicated in the Purpose of Chastisement, in that thread even you did not answer my questions.

 

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 3 Nov 2011 11:26:09 AM Close

The Eternal Security Of The Children Of God

True children of God are, according to the Scriptures, forever saved and eternally secure because:

 

1. They are born, again of incorruptible seed which yields the fruit of everlasting life (1  Peter 1:23).

 

2.  They stand before God clothed in the imputed (credited) righteousness of Christ, and     not in their own (2 Corinthians 5:21; Romans 5:19-21).

 

3.  His sheep have been given eternal life-they shall never perish (John 10:28).

 

4.  Their eternal lives are forever hid with Christ in God (Colossians 3:1-3).

 

5.  They are already seated in the heavenlies in Christ (Ephesians 1:3; 2:6).

 

6.  The penalty for all their sin has been forever settled through the perfect and finished   work of the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 4:23-5:2; 5:6-9).

 

7.   Loss of reward at the Judgment Seat of Christ is certain for the careless Christians, but not loss of salvation (1 Corinthians 3:10-15).

 

8.   God faithfully chastens all of His children, even to the point of taking home those who refuse their Heavenly Father's correction (Hebrews 12:6-11; 1 Corinthians 5:1-5; 11:28-32).

 

9.  They have already been delivered from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 5:8-10).

 

10.  They are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:23).

 

11.  The Lord knoweth them that are His; false professors will be revealed as such at the White Throne Judgment (2 Timothy 2:19; Revelation 20:11-15; Matthew 7:21-23).

 

12.  God is the one Who has begun the good work in the believer, and He has promised to perform it until the day of Jesus Christ; they are to "work out," not "work for" their salvation (Philippians 1:6; 2:12,13).

 

13.  They are already living stones in the spiritual building of God of which Christ Himself is the Chief Cornerstone (1 Peter 2:5; Ephesians 2:20-22).

 

14.  They are members of the Body of Christ, each with a peculiar function and without each one, the Body would not be complete (1 Corinthians 12:12-27).

 

15.  They are kept by the power of God, through faith, not through the efforts or the works of the one who is saved. (1 Peter 1 :5).

 

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 3 Nov 2011 11:27:50 AM Close

16.  The are incorruptible, everlasting inheritance is reserved for them by God (1 Peter 1 :1-4).

 

17.  They are God the Father's irrevocable gift to God the Son (John 17:6,7).

 

18.  Backsliding is a sin, but the blood of Jesus Christ, God's Son, cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1 :7-9)

 

19.  He is able to save them to the uttermost because Christ "ever liveth to make intercession for them" (Hebrews 7:25).

 

20.  They are upon trusting Christ made "accepted in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1:6).

 

21.  Nothing can separate them from the love of Christ (Romans 8:38-39).

 

22.  By one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified (Hebrews 10:10-14).

 

23.  They cannot be unborn (John 3:6-8).

 

24.  Christ dwelleth in them for ever (2 John 2).

 

25.  No man can pluck the Christian out of His Father's hand, and that necessarily includes the believer himself (John 10:29).

 

26.  All who are justified are finally glorified-none are lost along the way (Romans 8:28-30).

 

 

27.  In their flesh dwelleth no good thing; they are saved by grace (undeserved favor) and not by their own works (Ephesians 2:8, 9).

 

28.  The gifts and calling of God are without repentance; God will never annul His promise or cast out those who have come unto Him through Christ (Romans 11:29; John 6:37; 17:2).

 

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Reply by : sathyasnehi   View Profile   Since : 4 Nov 2011 9:43:39 AM Close

Dear Sambudhanoor,

Before you seek answer from me, you should have responded what I have written in the thread ‘Purpose of Chastisement’.  I am reproducing below the portion.  Please give your explanation then I will consider answering you:

      Please read the following which I have written in one of my postings in the other thread:

      Drifting away from what we have heard is disobedience; end result is a just punishment for this disobedience.  (Heb 2: 1, 2)

 

      giving up our courage and hope that we boast is disobedience; end result is we will not of His house.  (Heb 3:6)

 

     If we do not hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first, it is disobedience and the end result is we will loose our share in Christ. (Heb (3:14)

 

      If we are not care full and go on backsliding, it is disobedience; end result is we will not enter into God’s rest. (Heb 4:1)

 

Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience (Heb 4:11). 

 

Please also read Col 1:23, 1 Cori 15:2 & Ephesians 5:6, 7. There are also other verses which you can find yourself.

 

Sathyasnehi

 

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 9 Nov 2011 7:53:37 AM Close

Dear Satyasnehi

 

Even if I give some explanation on the words quoted by you what is the use. In the last 3-4 months you have been started different threads and so many brethren replied to you as per the Word of God have you been taken anything in consideration. You have fixed to certain man made aspect, like saying there is two horns for the rabbit I caught, you will never change from that position that is what we are seeing last 3-4 months. I am posting some explanation on Hebrews which may not convince you, but to other readers also.

 

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 9 Nov 2011 7:57:01 AM Close

An explanation on Epistle of Hebrew:

Background and Themes

 

In a general way, Hebrews deals with the tremendous struggle involved in leaving one religious system for another. There is the violent wrenching of old ties, the stresses and tensions of alienation, and the formidable pressures exerted on the renegade to return.

But in this Epistle the problem was not just a question of leaving an old system for a new one of equal value. Rather it was a matter of leaving Judaism for Christ, and as the writer shows, this involved leaving shadows for the substance, ritual for reality, the prior for the ultimate, the temporary for the permanent-in short, the good for the best.

The problem also involved  leaving the popular for the unpopular, the majority for the minority, and the oppressors for the oppressed. And this precipitated many serious problems.

The Letter was written to people of Jewish background. These Hebrews had heard the gospel preached by the apostles and others during the early days of the church, and had seen the mighty miracles of the Holy Spirit which confirmed the message. They had responded to the good news in one of three ways:

Some believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and were genuinely converted.

Some professed to become Christians, were baptized, and took their place in the local assemblies. However, they had never been born again by the Holy Spirit of God.

Others flatly rejected the message of salvation.

Our Epistle deals with the first two classes-truly saved Hebrews and those who had nothing but an outward veneer of Christianity.

Now when a Jew left the faith of his forefathers, he was looked on as a turncoat and an apostate (meshummed), and was often punished with one or more of the following:

• Disinheritance by his family.

• Excommunication from the congregation of Israel.

• Loss of employment.

• Dispossession.

• Mental harassment and physical torture.

• Public mockery.

• Imprisonment.

• Martyrdom.

Of course, there was always the escape route. If he would renounce Christ and return to Judaism, he would be spared from further persecution. As we read between the lines of this Letter, we can detect some of the strong arguments used to persuade him to return to Judaism:

• The rich heritage of the prophets.

• The prominent ministry of angels in the history of God's ancient people.

• Association with the illustrious lawgiver Moses.

• National ties with the brilliant military commander Joshua.

• The glory of the Aaronic priesthood.

• The sacred sanctuary where God chose to dwell among His people.

• The covenant of the law given by God through Moses.

• The divinely appointed furniture in the sanctuary, and the magnificent veil.

• The services in the sanctuary, and especially the ritual on the great Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur, the most important day in the Jewish calendar).

 

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 9 Nov 2011 7:58:56 AM Close

We can almost hear the first-century Jews presenting all these glories of their ancient, ritualistic religion, then asking with a sneer, “And what do you Christians have? We have all this. What do you have? Nothing but a simple upper room, a table, and some bread and wine on the table! Do you mean to say that you have left all this for that?”

The Epistle to the Hebrews is really an answer to the question, “What do you have?” In a word the answer is Christ. In Him we have:

• One who is greater than the prophets.

• One who is greater than the angels.

• One who is greater than Moses.

• One who is greater than Joshua.

• One whose priesthood is superior to that of Aaron.

• One who serves in a better sanctuary.

• One who has introduced a better covenant.

• One who is the antitype of the typical furniture and veil.

• One whose once-for-all offering of Himself for sin is superior to the repeated sacrifices of bulls and goats.

Just as the stars fade from view in the greater glory of the sun, so the types and shadows of Judaism pale into insignificance before the greater glory of the Person and work of the Lord Jesus.

Yet there was still the problem of persecution. Those who professed to be followers of the Lord Jesus faced bitter, fanatical opposition. For true believers this could lead to the peril of discouragement and despair. They therefore needed to be encouraged to have faith in the promises of God. They needed endurance in view of the coming reward.

For those who were only nominal Christians, there was the danger of apostasy. After professing to receive Christ, they might utterly renounce Him and return to ritualistic religion. This was tantamount to trampling on the Son of God, profaning His blood, and insulting the Holy Spirit. For this willful sin there was no repentance or forgiveness. Against this sin there are repeated warnings in the Letter to the Hebrews. In Heb_2:1 it is described as drifting away from the message of Christ. In Heb_3:7-19 it is the sin of rebellion or of hardening the heart. In Heb_6:6 it is falling away or committing apostasy. In Heb_10:25 it is the forsaking the assembling ... together. In Heb_10:26 it is the willfulness or deliberate sin. In Heb_12:16 it is spoken of as selling one's birthright for a single meal. Finally in Heb_12:25 it is called a refusal to hear the One who is speaking from Heaven. But all these warnings are directed against different aspects of the same sin-the sin of apostasy.

The message of Hebrews is as timely today as it was in the first century of the church. We need to be constantly reminded of the eternal privileges and blessings that are ours in Christ. We need encouragement to endure in spite of opposition and difficulties, and all professing believers need to be warned against reverting to ceremonial religion after having tasted and seen that the Lord is good.

 

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Reply by : tyt   View Profile   Since : 9 Nov 2011 9:50:42 AM Close

"I should explain why I addressed both of you differently. Years ago, ‘moses2006’ has admitted that it is not his name. If I do not know the name of a person, I address him/her as a person, by the ID. If the authors sign-off their posting and have communicated as a believer, then I will address him as a brother or her as a sister." Reply by : George P. Koshy Since : 20 Jul 2011 18:39:39

I have always had problem with the beating-around-the-bush and never-coming-to-the-point type of exposition on many topics by the ever-accuser on this board. He knows how to fill up frames/pages with repeated accusations and not only wastes his own time and energy but of others also.

The content in the two frames just above this post was the message given by Charles Stanley on T.V on February 24, 2004. He is a Pastor from Southern Baptist Church. This explanation is the right way of understanding.

-----------------------------

William MacDonald’s remarks about apostasy.

Apostasy should not be confused with backsliding. A true believer may wander very far away from Christ. Through sin his fellowship with God is shattered. He may even reach a point where he is no longer recognized as a Christian. But he can be restored to full fellowship as soon as he confesses and forsakes his sin (1 John 1:9).

Some Christians are troubled when they read Hebrews 6 and similar passages. Satan uses these verses especially to unsettle believers who are having physical, mental, or emotional difficulties. They fear that they have fallen away from Christ and that there is no hope for restoration. They worry that they have drifted beyond redemption’s point. The fact that they are even concerned about it is conclusive evidence that they are not apostates! An apostate would not have any such fears; he would brazenly repudiate Christ.

I believe once we have truly repented of our sinful position, and asked the Lord, Jesus Christ into our hearts, and receive His salvation, and then are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, (and I believe that event is all one------instantaneous-----and eternal-----though as time passes we can be “more filled with the Holy Spirit” as we grow in Him),-------that we are saved,------redeemed to God the Father,------reconciled to Him eternally in Christ! I do not believe we can then “lose that position in Christ!” Ephesians 1:7-14 really is one of the powerful verses that speaks to my heart on this, especially the closing words in v. 13, 14: “having believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance,……….” And, there are many verses that then promise nothing can separate us from His love.

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Reply by : tyt   View Profile   Since : 9 Nov 2011 10:21:36 AM Close

 

I would suggest never waste time interacting with George P. Koshy. There are excellent writers and speakers outside Brethren Community.  For example there are wonderful messages on this page:  Just pick your choice subject and listen to those messages. I would also suggest to leave behind the attitude of critizing other denominations even that of SDA. If Christ is the Savior of an SDA he will be with the Lord always.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_video/comm_author.cfm?AuthorID=27&l=1

Download and listen to this message on Hebrews Chapter 6

http://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_video/comm_topic.cfm?AuthorID=27&commInfo=45&GroupID=59
 

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Reply by : tyt   View Profile   Since : 9 Nov 2011 10:16:58 PM Close

 

Download and listen to this message on Hebrew Chapter 10

 

http://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_video/comm_topic.cfm?AuthorID=27&commInfo=45&GroupID=59

 

 

"Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin". (Hebrews 10:18)

 

THE MESSAGE IS HERE: 58-HBR-010-001.mp3.  Listen to what is said at Minute 43.00;  As simple as that.

Interesting at Minute: 56 ...

 

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" (Hebrews 10:26)

 

Listen to what is said at Minute: Hr. 1.01 to 1.06 Minute

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