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Keralabrethren.net: General Forum: The Warning Passages in the book of Hebrews.

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# 02319 :  The Warning Passages in the book of Hebrews.

 


There are four warning passages in the book of Hebrews that stir up much discussion. (1) The peril of drifting – 2:1-4; (2) Lest we forget – 3:7-4:2; (3) The peril of not progressing – 6:1-8 & (4) Do not despise; 10:25-26.

You might have noticed that I did not place the titles indicating those as ‘losing salvation.’ But if someone who believes in the possibility of losing salvation, he would have titled all those passages as ‘losing salvation, losing salvation, losing salvation & losing salvation.’

There is a lot written on these passages by both sides. I need to be very careful about what I write because it deals with my future and possibly some of the readers’. The other day I was told by a couple, who had a visit from a Pentecostal relative, who emphasized that salvation can and will be lost based on the passages from Hebrews. They told me ‘Uncle, we wished you were here to talk to this person.’ But under my breath I whispered ‘I wish it were to be that easy!’ In order to be convinced about this doctrine one should have the willingness to accept the positive aspects of the assurance given in the scriptures. Let me elaborate a little more.

Before you proceed please read these passages and understand what they teach. John 3:16; 3:36; 5:24; 6:47; 10:28-29; Acts 16:31; Eph. 2:8-9; 2 Cor. 5:17; 1 Peter 1:18-19; Rom 5:1; Rom 8:30 & 8:38-39 and Jude 24-25.

Now you have seen a list of verses describing the permanence of salvation. In order for a Christian to lose salvation, all these verses must be telling something diabolically opposite to what it is being told. Can Bible be such a misleading book? Does the Holy Spirit want us to play a dangerous game with our lives? Absolutely not! Bible wants to give the necessary assurance so that we would have peace about our future – our eternal life.

If so, why is this teaching that the salvation can be lost is so popular? There could be several reasons. May be, we think we can do something to help achieving our salvation. Perhaps we believe in the cliché ‘there is no free lunch.’ May be, one might think ‘if it sounds too good to be true, it cannot be true.’ After all, we have NEVER experienced anything like this ever! So it makes more sense to believe that one should be successful in preserving the precious ‘gift’ of salvation given to him by Jesus Christ by his own power and supreme commitment. Having such attitude prevents a person from trusting in the expressed Word of God and promotes self-reliance. Such self-reliance blinds our eyes to the overwhelming evidence of the permanence of salvation.    

Furthermore, some of you know that I believe in the doctrine of predestination and I had written articles after articles expounding the truths in regard to that. If you are convinced about that doctrine, it is impossible for a Christian to even entertain such a thought. Predestination is the ‘written, signed, sealed, preserved, recorded & guaranteed document’ regarding the future of a believer.

Even those who do not believe in the predestination are obligated to ‘believe’ in the verses I had asked you to read and understand. Those must be convincing enough to prove the permanence of salvation.

 


Contd.

Post by : tomj  View Profile    since : 10 May 2012


Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 14 May 2012 1:00:48 PM Close

 

How do we solve the problem like ‘the warning passages?’  
 
In the classical movie, Sound of Music, there is a general theme that runs in the first part of the story. That is depicted in the first line of the famous song, “How do we solve the problem like Maria...?” In the similar veins, but in a more serious tone, we do need to tackle these warning passages.
 
We all believe in the inspired word of God. No verse can ever be considered wrong. The ‘Brethren’ who believe in the security of salvation must be willing to deal with the insecurities of others also. There is no easy way out.
 
As I mentioned previously, we should be willing to accept the positive assurance and negative warnings, both are from the infallible word of God. We do not have the luxury of basking in the glory of something positive or crushed under the weight of the negative. These are absolute truths and they provide practical guidance for our Christian lives.
When I look at all these warning passages there are some underlying truths. Here is the summation of it. In regard to whether these passages teach that a believer can be lost I would answer as follows: Yes, if you mean someone who professed faith and then turned away and did not want Christ any more. No, if you mean, a believer could commit a moral or such sin that makes him ‘unsaveable’ or unforgivable. [What I wrote above in the two sentences are the bottom line idea and the truth found in those passages, but I know I have not dealt with those in detail. If and when such a detailed study is posted here, this would be the conclusion.]  
 
These passages address the human response which is subject to change. Not all repentance leads to commitment or obedience. Even repentance from dead works is referred to separately from faith in God although they go together in most cases. [cf. Heb. 6:1] Consider Ahab in the OT. He actually did repent in a certain way, but that did nothing for his soul, although it was such a response that God postponed the judgment He would bring on him (cf. 1Kings 20:25-29).
Judas got closer than anyone to the source of grace and salvation and received the knowledge of the Son of God perhaps more than anyone else, yet he chose not to trust in Him for his salvation. His own actions proved it and the Bible testified it [cf. John 17:12.] His remorse did not produce the saving faith. These warning passages are for such people who are dabbling with Christian principles and the knowledge of the Savior without plunging themselves into the saving grace of the Savior. A person who trusted Lord Jesus Christ and in Him alone for the forgiveness of his sins would never ever be lost.
How do I know if I have this ‘saving faith?’ 
Let me take you to an OT passage. Numbers 21:4-9
Then they journeyed from Mount Hor by the Way of the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; and the soul of the people became very discouraged on the way. 5 And the people spoke against God and against Moses: “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul loathes this worthless bread.” 6 So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died.
7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord that He take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.
8 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.”
How did the sinner avoid death? By looking at a fiery serpent! What was so special about this image of a serpent? Hardly anything! But when God said that whoever looks at that image of the serpent would be spared of his life, it received the power to impart life. Once the person looked at the serpent, he would not have to doubt whether he would remain alive from the serpent’s bite. It is a done deal! It became the ‘written, signed, sealed, preserved, recorded & guaranteed document.’ In the same way, a person who trusted the Lord Jesus Christ and in Him alone for the forgiveness of his sins would never ever be lost – because of the One who promised it!
Not fully trusting what God had said in all those verses I cited above is not a sign of godliness and piety. We are to trust God and take His words for what they stand for. In Numbers 20 we read about Moses. He was told by God to speak to the rock so that there will be water for the people and the animals. But Moses decided to take matters in his hand and beat the rock twice to the displeasure of God. When we read the passage carefully we will see that the glory due to God by total obedience was absent at that spectacular miracle. If God promised water from the rock by speaking to it, that is all it is needed. Our trust in His words would bring glory to His name.   
Tom Johns
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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 14 May 2012 1:01:51 PM Close

 

Kristine,
You asked some questions in the ‘Atonement’ thread. Since that thread was dealing with the doctrine of atonement I thought it would be better to address these questions separately under this thread.
Question 1. When a true believer will not sin willfully to the extent of rejecting Jesus, then how the question of no restitution for his doing so arise?
I assume that you are referring to the following verses. Hebrews 10:26-29 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?.”
All these warning passages are written for the benefit of the believers or Christians. They warn true believers what the outcome would be if apostasy [a departure from faith] would occur. The author does not say that it had occurred. All these warning passages [2:1-4; 3:7-4:2; 6: 1-8; 10:26-29] are hypothetical in nature. They deal with the question; what if?
What is the ‘willful sin?’
By willful sin the author does not mean the sin of true Christians. The author recognizes the sin of the Christians at several places in the book of Hebrews. The believers do sin [cf.12:1 – ‘and the sin which so easily ensnares us.’] Believers are chastened for it [cf.12:6] He tells the believers to go to their High Priest in 4:14-16. If believers do not sin what is the purpose of having Christ’s intercession necessary? [cf. 7:25] In 10:17 he says about the believers; “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
Willful sin is the same as falling away in 6:6 and the departing from the living God in 3:12. It is possible that there were some ‘threshold’ Christians. They are there at the meetings and had heard and may have professed to believe in the gospel but lacked genuine faith in Christ for the forgiveness for sins. Based on the author’s own admission of Christian’s sins I detailed in the paragraph above we can safely conclude that he is addressing such ‘threshold’ Christians with this warning.
I have knowledge of a person who was originally from the Hindu upbringing, but later on followed many other religious followings. Then he came to ‘accept’ Christianity. He and his wife and a teenage daughter got baptized on the same day and I was present to witness the baptism. They continued in fellowship for about 3 years and then withdrew to follow Muslim teachings and practice. I am not sure about his/ their current religious affiliation. Looking back at his ‘commitment’ to Christianity, I could see what the author of Hebrews is trying to draw our attention to. This is the willful sin he is trying to impress upon us.
The nature of forsaking the Son of God.
In verse 28-29 the author argues that the higher the privilege, the more severe the penalty would be. The more they know the guiltier they become as far as the degree of punishment. All kinds of sins were forgiven in the OT. Perjury [cf. Lev 5:1] sexual immorality [cf. Lev 19:20-22] adultery & murder [cf. 2 Samuel 11-12.] The one sin that could not be forgiven was defiant, willful sin. If an Israelite demonstrated unbelief in God, rejected His Law and removed himself from the covenant, he could not be forgiven. According to Deuteronomy 13:8; 17:2-7, they are stoned to death and receive no mercy. If the OT Law brought physical death, the rejection of a higher and better message from Jesus Christ would bring greater condemnation.
The seriousness of the sin of an apostate
1.       Those who completely and finally reject Jesus Christ, trample ‘the Son of God underfoot.’ They treat the God-man with contempt.
2.       An apostate not only rejects the Christ’s person, but His work also. By His work, he provided forgiveness for a sinner by His blood. His ‘blood of the covenant’ as the Bible qualifies, is diminished its value to become a ‘common thing.’ This apostate thinks the blood of Jesus Christ has no power to forgive sins, it is just ordinary blood. The phrase ‘the blood by which he was sanctified,’ simply states an outward setting apart, not the inward sanctification. This verse should be understood the same way as we understand 1 Corinthians 7:14; “For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.” This sanctification is NOT salvation, but being placed in a sanctified environment so that a genuine personal sanctification could be possible.
3.       The apostate is a person who has ‘insulted the Spirit of grace.’ He had seen the work of grace in action in the Assembly of God’s people. [cf. 4:16; 13:9] This person had heard the Spirit’s testimony [cf. 10:15] but inwardly rejected the testimony.
Question 2. Do you accept as there is no restitution for his willful sinning, he has to meet the fiery indignation meant for adversaries? The answer is given above.
Question 3. The sinner in this passage does not reject Christ openly by mouth, but by his wicked deeds, he is going out from Christ. – Read the example of my friend who attended the meeting for 3 years and his current known state.
Question 4. Verse 29 says this person who is willful sinner was once sanctified (saved). This is the same sanctification we read in verse 10. – Read the answer referencing to 1 Corinthians 7:14.
Question 5. All this warning is to brethren only (19 Having therefore, brethren) – The warning is given to the brethren so that they would know what is to be expected for those who willfully reject Jesus Christ. That does not suggest that they will end up being there. The warning of eternal hell is given all people, not just to the ones who are going to end up being there.
I hope your questions are answered. If you have further questions, please feel free to ask and I am sure one of the contributors would answer. May God grant you grace to appreciate all what we have in Jesus Christ!
Tom Johns
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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 14 May 2012 1:03:25 PM Close

 

APOSTASY
We often hear about the sin of ‘apostasy.’ Encyclopedia Britannica defines this word in Christian perspective as, “the total rejection of Christianity by a baptized person who, having at one time professed the Christian faith publicly rejects it.It is distinguished from heresy, which is limited to the rejection of one or more Christian doctrines by one who maintains an overall adherence to Jesus Christ.”
In Malayalam this word is translated as ‘Vishwaasa-thyagem.’ [cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:3] This is different from the word ‘backsliding’ which is often translated into Malayalam as ‘pinmaatam.’ [cf. Hosea 14:4] The following OT passages would illustrate the sin of apostasy. We do not see any ‘sacrifice left’ for this sin, except sure retribution.
APOSTASY - EXAMPLES IN THE OT.
Deuteronomy 13:6-11 “If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you.”
Deuteronomy 17: 2-7 “If there is found among you, within any of your gates which the Lord your God gives you, a man or a woman who has been wicked in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing His covenant, 3 who has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, either the sun or moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded, 4 and it is told you, and you hear of it, then you shall inquire diligently. And if it is indeed true and certain that such an abomination has been committed in Israel, 5 then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has committed that wicked thing, and shall stone to death that man or woman with stones. 6 Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses; he shall not be put to death on the testimony of one witness. 7 The hands of the witnesses shall be the first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So you shall put away the evil from among you.”
The NT also deals with the sin of apostasy. Besides the warning passages in the book of Hebrews, we see the seriousness of this sin in 2Thessalonians 2:3. There we see the ultimate culmination of this sin appearing in full force. 1 Tim 1:19-20, we read about Hymenaeus and Alexander who shipwrecked their faith. Paul handed them over to Satan ‘so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.’
.

CONTEMPORARY EXAMPLES
In my previous posting I mentioned about a family who professed to be followers of Christ and got baptized and stayed in fellowship for about 3 years before moving on to follow the Muslim teachings. But there is another example perhaps more compelling than the one I mentioned here. Some of the readers may have heard of him or had read his book. His name is Charles Templeton who was born in Canada in 1915.

 
I just finished reading his book ‘Farewell to God’. Charles or Chuck, as Billy Graham used to call him dearly, was a fellow preacher with Dr. Graham for few years at the beginning of his ministry. They shared the platform and continued on for some years. As years went by, Charles questioned the authenticity of Christianity and the Bible. He struggled with every doctrine and came to a conclusion that the whole Bible is nothing but a collection of fictional writings. He questioned the creation account, the miracles, the virgin birth, the crucifixion, the resurrection, hell & heaven. He remained as an agnostic until he died in 2001.
In his book he asked; “Is it possible to believe that the Creator of the universe would personally impregnate a Palestinian virgin in order to facilitate getting His Son into this world as a man?” Similar statements filled the whole 286 pages of his book “Farewell to God.”
Here is another dilemma to some of us. Isn’t this a classic example of a ‘saved’ person lost as a sinner? How can anyone teach that the salvation cannot be lost? After reading this book I am convinced that Charles Templeton indeed is spending eternity away from Jesus Christ. His soul must be waiting for the final White Throne judgment, where he will be sent to the lake of fire. He thought his life would ‘cease to exist as an entity.’ [Page 285]
What went wrong with Charles who shared the platform with the greatest evangelist of the 20th century? He witnessed hundreds of souls coming to Christ and he himself may have brought many to Christ! How can anyone say that the salvation cannot be lost?
I am glad that I read his book. I read his conversion story. He thought he became a Christian on a certain night. On page 13 of his book, he described what took place. Before I quote his ‘conversion’ account let me brief you with some of my observations. In his ‘conversion’ account There was no mention of the forgiveness of sin; there was no mention of the cross; there was no mention of the blood of Jesus Christ that ‘washes away the sin.’ There was no mention of his admission as a sinner. He never acknowledged the need for a Savior. Instead, this is what had taken place that night of his ‘conversion.’
“As I went down the hall, I was forming the first fumbling words of a prayer in my mind. I knelt by my bed in the darkness. Suddenly, it was as though a black blanket had been draped over me. The only words that would come were, Lord come down! Lord come Down..
I found myself – I don’t know how much later – my head in my hands, crouched small on the floor at the center of a vast dark emptiness. Slowly a weight began to lift, a weight as heavy as I. It passed through my thighs, my torso, my arms and shoulders, and lifted off. Ineffable warmth began to suffuse my body. It seemed that a light had turned on in my chest and that it had cleansed me. I felt in a biblical phrase, that I could have leaped over a wall.” End of quotes. [Page 13- Farewell to God.]
On the following day he went to his work and he shared his experience to the co-workers. Some ridiculed him. But he felt the need to share it with them. He was counted as a ‘born-again’ kind of guy!
My dear readers, this experience will not make anyone a Christian. In fact, my heart is very heavy with sadness that Charles Templeton was ushered to a Christ-less eternity. I wish he knew what is required for a person to be saved. Chuck never acknowledged his need for a Savior, even after hearing several messages from his fellow preacher, Dr. Billy Graham. He never acknowledged his need for forgiveness for his sins even in subsequent years. Instead, he started questioning the Christian faith. Then on, he was plunging headlong into apostasy.
The sin of apostasy is real. It happened to my friend and his family. It happened to Charles Templeton. I am sure it had happened to many others who I don’t know. The warning passages in the book of Hebrews remind us of the real possibility of such sin. Templeton was indeed sanctified by the word of God, but never was saved.
Is there anyone depending on the ‘experiential conversion?’ Instead of that we need biblical conversion. We need to admit our sinfulness. We need to acknowledge our inability to save ourselves. We need to accept what Lord Jesus Christ did for us on the cross. We need to trust in what took place on the cross. Our sins are transferred over to the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the final sacrifice. Those who have trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation will never be lost. Templeton, by his own admission, stated that he did not believe in the cross or the substitutionary death of Jesus Christ. He trampled on the ‘blood of the covenant’ and considered as just ordinary blood. Yet, he became a popular ‘evangelist’ in the Fifties, standing next to Dr. Billy Graham.
Going through certain experience or giving up drinking or smoking or commitment to read the Bible [although they are all good] and pray more diligently will not save anyone. It is placing our trust in the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins that would give us salvation. Such conversion is the biblical conversion and those converted like that are belonging to the Lord and they will never be lost. They are His own, and He will guard them till the end.  
Tom Johns  
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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 15 May 2012 9:50:04 AM Close

Dear Tom Johns, 

Your statement reads “They (the warning passages) warn true believers what the outcome would be if apostasy [a departure from faith] would occur” Please tell me Sir, what the outcome would be if the true believers fail to heed the warning against the occurring of apostasy. When the author does not say that it had occurred, I understand that he emphasizes it will occur, if the warnings are trespassed.

 

What do you mean by saying ‘All these warning passages [2:1-4; 3:7-4:2; 6: 1-8; 10:26-29] are hypothetical in nature’? What about 3-6, 8, 12, 14, 4-1, 11?

 

What is the ‘willful sin?’

By saying ‘By willful sin the author does not mean the sin of true Christians’, do you assert that believers can not sin willfully? Will not the ensnaring sins, if go unnoticed, make us salves to them (Roman 6:16)? Believers going to the High Priest (4:14-16) is called repentance.  Will Christ intercede always for unrepentant willful sinners (If you agree that believers can become willful sinners)?

 

A person who has his part in the Holy Spirit (6:4) can not be just a ‘threshold’ Christian. Do you say that the warning to in 3:14 ‘ we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end’ is only for the ‘threshold’ Christians? Willful sinners who has to look for fiery indignation are called not ‘threshold’ Christians, but ‘Lord’s people’(V 30).  This is my understanding.

 

The nature of forsaking the Son of God.

‘In verse 28-29 the author argues that the higher the privilege, the more severe the penalty would be’– This is what you have said. Can you explain for who the privilege is? Only for the selected ones or for whoever hear the warning?  Please apply your ‘Predestination’ teaching to explain your saying ‘ The more they know the guiltier they become as far as the degree of punishment’

 

 ‘If the OT Law brought physical death, the rejection of a higher and better message from Jesus Christ would bring greater condemnation’ – This is your another statement. According to your theory of Predestination, God selects a few for eternal life and the rest for condemnation.  They reject Christ, because God created them to reject Christ and they have no their own free will to accept Christ. Please clear the paradox.

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 15 May 2012 9:51:49 AM Close

The seriousness of the sin of an apostate

1.   " Those who completely and finally reject Jesus Christ, trample ‘the Son of God underfoot.’ They treat the God-man with contempt" - Your statement.

 

      Whether they trample the Son of God or not, they reject Jesus, as they are not in the sphere of the selected one. Am I right?

2I I am not able to accept your comparison of sanctification by blood of Christ with the sanction mentioned in 1 Corinthian 7:14. If at all the blood of Jesus Christ sanctifies a person, it sanctifies always inwardly. Jesus has never shed His blood for one’s external sanctification. Such an idea is absurd.  A husband is sanctified because of his believer wife’s good conduct, not of her blood. Christ’s blood cleanses one’s soul and we set ourselves a model to our life partners for the shaping of their character.    

                         

     ‘This sanctification is NOT salvation, but being placed in a sanctified environment so that a genuine personal sanctification could be possible’-This is your statement. The genuine personal  sanctification (you mean ‘salvation’) is not possible, if that person is not chosen for salvation.  Please refer to your Predestination theory.

  

3.       The apostate is a person who has ‘insulted the Spirit of grace.’ He had seen the work of grace in action in the Assembly of God’s people. [cf. 4:16; 13:9] This person had heard the Spirit’s testimony [cf. 10:15] but inwardly rejected the testimony.

·        Please rethink of your answer for my Question 2 on the ground of my above reply.

·        The example of King Solomon is very much suitable for my Question 3.

·        I have explained above how 1 Corinthian 7:14 does not match Verse 29 I have pointed out in my Question 4.

On your reply to my Question 5, this is my comment:

 

When I say ‘brethren’ it means ‘saved ones’ for me. As these saved ones will not face fiery indignation at any cost (If eternal security is true), the warning is futile for them. The warning of eternal hell to all the people (?) is also meaningless as God has not predestined all of them for eternal life.

 

                                                    

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 15 May 2012 12:02:00 PM Close

Warnings, call to repentance and obedience are a plenty in the scriptures.(many of them coupled with promises from God to those who trust in Him and serve Him faithfully)Assurances of security to those who “trust and obey “ also galore.

Now the debate seems to be about the future of those who “TRUST & DISOBEY”. I think 2 Peter 2/20-22 applies to them as they are called APOSTATES.

I see a big difference between Apostates and grave backsliders. Also there is a difference between a mere confessor of faith and an active practitioner. Even amongst the practitioners of faith, there are (1) those who obey and practice but do not Trust (2) those that trust and obey, (3) those that trust, obey and practice.

For the 1st group, Christianity is a comfort zone in this worldly life, probably a source of livelihood as well. The 2nd group is called “Believers” in common parlance and the 3rd group comprises of the “DISCIPLES”. God is the searcher of hearts. The Shepherd will divide His sheep from the goats. Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 

All Disciples are PREDESTINED.

P.A.Paulose

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 16 May 2012 7:11:28 AM Close

“All Disciples are PREDESTINED” – P.A. Paulose

Judas was a disciple (Luke 6:13)

He was, then called out by Jesus according to HIS will for a special ministry (Mark 3:13)

He was made an Apostle by Christ (Luke 6:13)

He was Christ’s familiar/closest friend and Christ trusted him (Psalm 41:9)

Was he PREDESTINED for eternal life ?

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Reply by : beracah   View Profile   Since : 16 May 2012 10:24:03 AM Close

Does the Bible anywhere say that Judas Iscariot was predestined for eternal salvation? If yes, where is it mentioned? 

The Lord Jesus Christ said that Judas was “doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled”.  This was said of Judas before his betrayal and suicide.

 

John 17:12 

“While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.”  

 

Remember, there were / are false apostles, false prophets, false brothers, false teachers, deceitful workmen masquerading as agents of light and Judas was one among them. Such are not predestined disciples but deceivers who had an external appearance as disciples. Refer 2 Cori 11:13-15, 26; Gala 2:4; 2 Pet 2:1; 1 John 4:1; Rev 2:2

 

Judas is a representative of those appearing to be disciples without God predestining them for salvation; but Judas left to go where he belongs (Acts 1:25)

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 16 May 2012 12:21:39 PM Close

“In God, the predestination and foreknowledge existed at the same time in eternity. The knowledge of God is not by successive approximation and successive increment. But the knowledge of man is by successive approximation and in successive increments. We should not bring God down to our level.”- George P Koshy on predestination.

A lot has been already written on Predestination, a biblical truth under various threads in this forum but still many participants would like to negate God’s Sovereignty in the matter of Salvation and prefer to accord importance to man’s response to the Gospel & responsibility in securing and retaining Salvation. One reason may be the inaccurate interpretation of the word 'Predestination' 

Now that Scriptural evidence is not acceptable, I would like say a few words about the Psychological view point.

Man is made up of Spirit, Soul and Body. Days after Physical death the body disintegrates to its fundamental physical constituents. The Soul and the Spirit which is called Subconscious mind in Psychology remains intact. Subconscious mind responds to the mental picture (or thought) impressed and stored in it. The law of life is the law of belief. What you believe determines what you will carry forward to the life after death.

If you prefer to believe that you will be judged according to the degree of your righteousness, so shall it be. If you BELIEVE that Christ’s Righteousness has been imputed on to you by grace, through the faith that God Almighty has bestowed upon the Predestined undeservedly, it shall be so too. If you believe in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter, you will walk according to the Spirit free from indwelling sin and will experience the Sonship through the Spirit where sin has no relevance in the whole relationship.

P.A.Paulose 

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 16 May 2012 8:46:22 PM Close

Dear Kristine,

It will be few days before I will be able to post anything due to some special situations. In the meantime, please follow along with the answers from others.

Tom Johns

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 17 May 2012 12:49:53 PM Close

Replying berach 

Sir,

 

It is well on your part to answer in place of Mr.Paulose.  But I looked for answers against certain points I have raised.

 

Mr.Paulose has said all the disciples are predestined. We read in Luke 6:13 that Judas was a disciple, not a false disciple.  It was Christ who chose Judas from among many disciples to be an apostle.  Why did God select a devil’s man for an important ministry? I read Christ was wilful in selecting Judas (Mark 3:13) and Judas had not been unwarranted imposter. Judas was Christ familiar/closest friend, not just a friend, called in a general manner. Then what we have to notice here, above all, is Christ TRUSTED him. Being a close friend is a special thing and Christ’s trusting him is a point to answer. On receiving your explanation, I will look into what you have written further.

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Reply by : beracah   View Profile   Since : 19 May 2012 4:51:19 AM Close

kristine,

Bear with me for what I posted and Br. Paulose & Br. Tom Johns will continue their dialogue with you.  

The issues seeking answers from what you wrote in reply to my posting are:

 

1.   Was Judas a true disciple of Jesus Christ?

2.   Did Lord Jesus trust Judas?

3.   How trustworthy was Judas?

4.   Who was Judas Iscariot?

5.   Were all those termed as disciples truly so?

 

This is what the Lord spoke of Judas in John 6:70 – though he was one of the twelve, he was a devil!.

 

JN 6:70 Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

 

Did the Lord trust men including Judas who flocked around Him –

 

JN 12:4 But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, 5 "Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages. " 6 He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

 

JN 2:23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name. 24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men. 25 He did not need man's testimony about man, for he knew what was in a man.

 

Judas was a devil, a thief and not trustworthy. The Lord told him:  

"What you are about to do, do quickly" John 13:27 (betrayal)  

 

Many followed Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry for different reasons and purposes. Some looked for temporary gains; some were attracted by His miracles; a few were inquisitive; others were critical and looking for an occasion to trap Him; and there were genuine followers, who were enabled by the Father to come to Jesus and to believe in Him.

 

JN 6: 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

 

All those that followed Jesus and attempted to present themselves as disciples were not true disciples. The Lord’s teachings were hard and unbearable for them and they parted ways with Him; no longer followed him (John 6:60)

 

But the case of Judas was unique – he belonged to a definite place and was to go back to his place after completing his task. When many who posed as disciples left Jesus and stopped following Him, Judas stayed on for accomplishing his diabolic mission of betraying the Son of God. (Acts 1:25; John 13:27)

 

I could not find scriptural evidences to consider Judas as a trusted friend or true disciple of Jesus Christ. Further, what I understand is that:

 

Judas was not predestined for eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 22 May 2012 10:46:23 AM Close

Dear Beracah,                                                     

First, let me tell you why I believe that Judas was a true disciple to begin with.  Once again, I am repeatedly quoting here Luke 6:13, Mark 3:13 which you are hesitating to look into. Judas did not intrude by himself into the group of Apostles and Christ has not just picked up Judas at random from all the disciples. Though there were many disciples who followed Christ (For your convenience, let me consider that all of them would not have been true disciples), Jesus did not call all of them.  He called out only a few of them (but more than twelve) according to His will (mark 3:13). Those called out by Christ Himself were definitely true Disciples of Christ; otherwise He would not have called out them. Then Christ did not make all of the ‘called ones’ as Apostles, but again made a selection, He selected the twelve out of them for an important ministry. When Christ selected the other eleven as trustworthy persons, He would not have selected Judas, a ‘wrong’ and untrustworthy person. This Judas who would later on lift up his heel against Jesus (John 13:18) was a familiar (i.e., close to Christ’s heart) friend (to be with Jesus - Mark 3:14) and Jesus TRUSTED him (Refer to Psalm 41:9). Judas made a breach of trust later on and that does not mean Jesus did not trust him from the beginning.

 

Along with the other eleven, Judas also was ordained to do the ministry of preaching, to have the power to heal sickness and to cast out demons. Christ would not select an unsaved person to preach gospel, he would not empower a demon possessed person to cast out demons.

 

So, Judas was a true disciple at first.

 

Who was Judas Iscariot?

 

You want to say that he was a devil and a thief right from the beginning. I do not grasp this idea while reading the Scripture.

 

The verses you think that supports apparently your view are JN 6: 64, 65, John 12:4, 2:23, 13:27, John 13:27 & Act 1:25.

 

Saying that the above verses do not nullify the Truth I have understood from Mark 3:13 and Luke 6:12, 13, let me explain my understanding of the verses you have quoted.

 

“ Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. " (John 6:64)

 

Jesus has, of course, known every thing from the beginning. He knows who I am now and how I will be after seven years and how I will end my Christian life.  He knows all this from the beginning.  I know for myself that I am a son of God now and in accordance with my present belief I know that when Christ appears second time, I shall be like Him (1 John 3:2) and at the same time taking in account the vulnerability of human nature and Satan’s tireless working, we must also know that ‘it does not appear what shall be’ (part 2 verse 2).  So, there is a limit for our knowledge. Solomon would not have, in the heyday of his spiritual life, thought that he would become an apostate later on.  But God had known from the beginning that he would turn an apostate. Can you say that King Solomon was not at all a spiritual man at first?

 

This is how we have to understand John 6:64.

 

He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

 

The Father does not limit his grace of calling only to a few. If one is not enabled by Father to come unto Christ, the reason is that the person who has heard from the father is not willing to learn from what he has heard. (Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me – 6:45). Judas was chosen by Christ which means the Father only had drawn him to Christ. The problem for Judas was he did not remember how he had received and heard; and hold fast and repent (Re 3:3).

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 22 May 2012 10:52:20 AM Close

“ He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it” (Jn12:5,6) 

Here, it is said that Judas was a thief, but how can we assume that he was a thief from the day of his choosing as an apostle by Christ? Judas has uttered such a word only after becoming a thief at one stage.

 

Your quoting of John 2:23 does not relate to the story of Judas.

 

"What you are about to do, do quickly" John 13:27 (betrayal) – I do not understand how this verse supports your argument. After Judas has decided to betray Jesus, it is natural that the Lord would say so.

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? – John 6:70

This is a verse you are quoting in support of your argument. Here I draw your attention towards two things. One is, Judas was a chosen one, i.e., he was not an imposter himself. The second, Jesus did not say ‘he has been a devil all the way from the beginning’ but said ‘he is a devil’.  He has become a devil’s person at one point and is a devil at present.

I am concluding by all my spiritual and logical understanding that Judas was initially a true disciple and became a thief and a traitor later on to betray Christ Jesus. Your predestination teaching has nothing to do with TRUTH.

In case you are commenting what I have written here, please don’t skip

Mark 3:13, Luke 6:12, 13

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Reply by : beracah   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2012 4:46:21 AM Close

kristine,

You summed up your arguments as below:

 

I am concluding by all my spiritual and logical understanding that Judas was initially a true disciple and became a thief and a traitor later on to betray Christ Jesus. Your predestination teaching has nothing to do with TRUTH.”

 

This statement of yours is contrary to the truth reveled in 1 John 3:9

“No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.”  

 

If Judas were a true disciple in the beginning as you claim, he would not have ended up doing what he did according to God’s revelation in 1 John 3:9. It is not the private effort of a believer that enables him to cease from continuing in sin but “because God’s seed remains in him”. A child of God cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. See how different the case of Judas is!!! He would not be a devil or devil’s person if he had God’s seed in him. Was he a devil or has he become a devil?

 

Then you said: “If one is not enabled by Father to come unto Christ, the reason is that the person who has heard from the father is not willing to learn from what he has heard. (Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me – 6:45)”

 

This is not what I read in the Bible and what you wrote is a misrepresentation and distortion of what Jesus said. What you say is about “self enablement” but what the Son of God said is about His Father enabling men to come to Him.

 

I believe in the Sovereignty of God and in Predestination as revealed in the Scripture. Some are destined to stumble and fall (1 peter 2:8). But those who are destined for eternal life are protected and kept safe by the Son of God by the name the Father gave him. (John 17:12)

 

I also believe that there are people like Pharaoh raised by God for specific purposes:

Exodus 9: 16 But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.

 

There are also objects of his wrath prepared for destruction and objects of his mercy prepared in advance for glory.

 

RO 9:22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory

 

There are those destined to stumble and fall; who would not believe and be saved.

They will not believe in the Son of God; they will stumble and fall as they were destined for that.

 

1PETER 2:8 "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.

 

The Lord in his prayer to his Father stated that “While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.” (John 17:12) 

 

Judas was lost in fulfillment of the scriptures. According to the Lord’s own word, no one else was lost: "I have not lost one of those you gave me." John 18:9. From this I conclude that Judas was not given to the Son by the Father.

 

Regarding Mark 3:13, Luke 6:12, 13 –

In my limited wisdom I am unable to understand the ways of God and therefore I cannot comment on why the Lord chose Judas in view of the facts revealed and recorded about him in the Bible. The Lord’s ways are beyond tracing out for me. Judas had a role assigned to him by the Almighty.It is also said that:

 

 “The Lord works out everything for his own ends and even the wicked for a day of disaster”. Proverbs 16:4.

 

None can contend with God about His ways and He is not under obligation to give an account of any of his matters. Job 33:13 Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters.

 

Holy Spirit spoke long ago about Judas and that was fulfilled when Judas left to go where he belongs. He belonged to where he went.

 

Finally, you said:

Your predestination teaching has nothing to do with TRUTH”.

 

You would have been right if “PREDESTINATION” is my copyrighted, patented, private idea. But, the Truth is contrary to what you say. It is God who predestines and the fact of it is revealed in the Scriptures. If you consider it not true, you have to contend with the ONE who does it and administers it.

 

There are those appointed for eternal life; who will honour the word of the Lord; who will believe and be saved.

 

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2012 5:35:22 AM Close

Jesus did seek the Will of His Father in prayer before the appointment of the apostles. Accordingly, Jesus purposely selected a traitor to accomplish a particular task. God works all things together for His purposes. We have no record of his call but it is a fact that Jesus did call this man from the town of Kerioth. Judas was chosen by Christ does not mean the Father had drawn him to Christ to become a True disciple. He was chosen just to accomplish the role he was to enact. The OT said Messiah would be betrayed by a familiar friend for 30 pieces of silver, and Jesus knew Judas was that man (John 17/12). God can use even a Judas to accomplish His purpose.

God can use even an apostate like Judas or Solomon to teach us some important lessons. They are the great examples of lost opportunity. They were associated with Jesus Himself but were content merely to associate with Him, never submitting to Him in saving faith. Judas is also the world’s greatest illustration of wasted privileges.

Several characteristics of spiritual hypocrisy are clearly evident in Judas’ life. He thought of using Jesus for his desire to put down roman oppression. It was just an outward allegiance. Hypocritical people can appear to be holy like Solomon. They are self-centered. Judas didn’t love Jesus. Judas was an unbeliever. I don’t find specific instances of Judas preaching the Gospel and healing the sick anywhere in the Scriptures.

Case study of the Pharaoh, Solomon, Judas Iscariot etc fortifies the truth of God’s Sovereignty and the fact of Predestination. God will persevere unto the end those that are chosen according to His Will. The doctrine of the final perseverance of the saints teaches that those who are effectually called of God to the exercise of genuine faith will certainly persevere unto final salvation.

P.A.Paulose   

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 27 May 2012 5:55:32 PM Close

Hello everyone,

I am not ignoring the questions in the forum. It would be another week or so before I could sit down and go through all those.

Tom Johns

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 20 Jun 2012 4:36:29 AM Close

To  Mr. beracah 

Sir,

 

While explaining 1 John 3:9, you have taken ‘cannot go on sinning ’ from  NIV. ‘cannot sin ‘ is in KJV. It seems when you prefer NIV, you are not comfortable with KJV. The wicked man (a terrible sinner) we see in 1 Corinthian went on sinning.  His act of sinning was not just accidental or it was not for once or twice, but he was having his father’s wife. You must notice that the sin, this born again who received the seed of God, is not so much as named among the Gentiles, such a heinous sin it was, then that wicked man (as called by Paul) continued (i.e., went on)  committing that sin.  John warns us that we should not become like Cain. In this same chapter 3, we can see in verse 15 that eternal life will cease abiding in a saved person whose character turns murderous. Hence I understand that 1 John 3:9 is of words of encouragement and warning as well.  With this understanding, it is comprehensive for me that Judas became a devil at a latter stage.    

                                                                               

When we see a factual incident in 1 Cori 5, then how can we understand 1 John 3:9? First of all, I do not read each and every verse in the Scripture on its face value. I look into the inherent meaning and the actual intention of the writer. Here, in this verse, when I read that ‘whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God’, I understand that John mounts a stress on the readers (believers) that they should not commit sin.  We should not take advantage of our vulnerability to commit sin, though sinning is possible (1 John 1:8-10).

 

Sir, I realise that the expression ‘because God’s seed remains in him’ is actually an indirect warning to the believers. John’s emphasis is we have to keep remembering that we have got God’s seed (Word of God) in us and so we should not sin. If we walk according to the His words, we make sure that Christ remains in us

 

Dear beracha, if my linking of John 6:45 to 44 is a misrepresentation, please explain how you have understood verse 45. If a person’s self will (you say this as self enablement) does not play any roll in his salvation, what is the meaning of ‘violence’ we read in Matt: 11:12 and Luke 16:16. Jesus says it is we to find out the narrow gate and the difficult way that leads to LIFE.  Only when you knock, the door will be opened to you.

                                                                  

You have quoted 1 Peter 2:8 in support of your own ‘predestination’ doctrine,  Here,  I once again repeat that I do not read each and every verse in the Scripture on its face value. I look into the inherent meaning and the actual intention of the writer. The core verse in chapter is 6:

Behold, I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone,
   And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

 

Corner stone is laid for any one who believes (which means whoever believes) and God does not unilaterally and voluntarily makes someone stumbling at the Stone. Those someone are so stiff necked and disobedient for themselves (God does not make them so) to the words of Christ and the writer expresses Gods’ ferocity by saying as if ‘they were appointed for the stumbling’.

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 20 Jun 2012 5:01:51 AM Close

Predestinationists commit this mistake of taking literal meaning of every verse. This way of understanding a verse will cause concluding that one single man’s faith is sufficient for the salvation of the rest in his family ( Acts 16:31) 

Purpose of God for raising Pharaoh has been clearly given in the Scripture. One of God’s purposes is to multiply His signs and His wonders in the land of Egypt and to make the Egyptians know that He is the Lord. Dear ‘beracah’, tell me what is the purpose of God is selecting Judas as Apostle. Pharaoh was not Gods’ favorite friend and there was nothing for God to trust him.  Whereas Judas was favorite friend of Jesus and Jesus trusted him ( Psalm 41:9), what does it mean?

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 20 Jun 2012 5:03:06 AM Close

I am explaining here Romans 9:22, 23 as I have understood. The objects of wrath and the objects of mercy are one and the same and they are gentiles here. God waits with great patience for the repentance of this  objects of wrath (seemingly predestined for destruction) and look at them as objects of mercy.  Gentiles got this privilege keeping their faith in Christ, when Jews in general rejected Christ because of their zealous for work of law. Paul here condemns a hypothetical Jewish person who questions God’s willingness to choose gentiles as His children.

 

The Lord in His prayer (John 17:12) stated that he has done on His part what has been committed to Him. But Judas on his part was not true to God’s call till the end and thus last his place as Apostle

 

If father had not given Judas to Jesus, He would not have TRUSTED Judas.

   

I appreciate your admission that you are not able to understand Mark 3; 13, Luke 6:12, 13. The reason is your adoption of Calvinistic predestination doctrine and your misunderstanding of the facts revealed and recorded about Judas in the Bible. The role assigned by the Almighty to Judas is only to proclaim gospel as an apostle of God, but he failed in that assignment.

 

I am not contending with God about his ways, but refuting your wrong teaching. We can not authoritatively make God obligated to our question, but God is ready to answer our earnest questions.

 

 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. – Job 42:4

                                           

There are those appointed for eternal life; who will honour the word of the Lord; who will believe and be saved – This is your statement and it is a blackmailing that I have to accept what you have interpreted; otherwise you will declare I am not appointed for eternal life.  It seems you are holding the key of God’s kingdom.

 

For whom He foreknew (Ro 8:29) are called as appointed euphemistically   

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Reply by : beracah   View Profile   Since : 20 Jun 2012 6:46:40 AM Close

Kristine,

This is your admission

Quote: “I do not read each and every verse in the Scripture on its face value. I look into the inherent meaning and the actual intention of the writer” End quote

 

This means, you assign meaning acceptable to you and claim it to be the inherent meaning intended by the writer. For you those portions of the scripture opposed to your theories would be “euphemism”. I refuse to accept all these.

 

I believe in the Sovereignty of God and His Word. I don’t know whether you are appointed for eternal life or not and that is not the point of my discussion.

 

I would like you to correct one of your erroneous beliefs on Keys of God’s Kingdom: They are not with me.

 

Be at your ease; don’t feel intimidated or coerced.  I have no intention to keep you feel blackmailed; so goodbye.

 

PTV

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 20 Jun 2012 6:59:04 AM Close

To Mr. Paulose 

Sir,

 

You have said ‘Jesus purposely selected a traitor to accomplish a particular task. God works all things together for His purposes’.  Do you mean that God needed someone to betray Him for His crucifixion? If so, what is the use of it? If Jesus had called out ‘unsaved’ Judas to carry out God’s ministry, then we can presume that God will do so today also for some purpose unknown to us, thus there will be some unsaved ‘minister’ among ourselves as appointed by God. As you have said, Judas who betrayed the messiah was a familiar friend of Jesus and, more than that, Jesus trusted that familiar friend.  Dear Paulose, please tell me what this trusting is.

 

The case of Judas is a stern warning to every believers.

 

Your statement: God can use even an apostate like Judas or Solomon to teach us some important lessons. They are the great examples of lost opportunity. They were associated with Jesus Himself but were content merely to associate with Him, never submitting to Him in saving faith. Judas is also the world’s greatest illustration of wasted privileges.

 

My comment:  What lessons can we take from the stories of Judas and Solomon? What do you mean by saying ‘They are the great examples of lost opportunity’? If you say that opportunities are given to everyone to get saved, then you have to review your predestination theory. According to your ‘theory’ God did not choose Judas to obtain His privileges, but only to betray Him.  Then, there is no question of God’s privileges being wasted.

 

My next question is about Solomon. God chose Judas, as you said, to betray the Messiah, then what for Solomon was chosen? Do you know that God loved Solomon when he was born and gave him a special name ‘Jedidiah’ (2 Sam 12:25).  Solomon prayed and God provided him what he asked for and whatever he did not ask for.  Does not this mean that Solomon was a spiritual man initially? Is it right for you to think that an unsaved Solomon would have written the spiritual book ‘Song of Solomon’ (see the title has his own name).  How dare could say that he never submitted to Him (Jesus) in saving faith.  Solomon was initially in submission to God initially and then trespassed later. This is the real story of Solomon and it is warning to every believers.

 

What are all the several characteristics of spiritual hypocrisy that are clearly evident in Judas’ life? What you said ‘Judas didn’t love Jesus’ was a change in his attitude that happened later. A true lover of Jesus can cease loving Him any more and thus become accursed (Re: 2:4, 1 Cori 16:22).  

“Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity – Eph 6:24”

Judas had given up the sincerity and thus become accursed as we read in 1 Cori 16:22. This is the fact we have to understand and accept.

 

Mr.Paulose, you have said ‘I don’t find specific instances of Judas preaching the Gospel and healing the sick anywhere in the Scriptures’. Do you, and then find such specific instances for all the Apostles except a few?

 

When there is a God’s effectual call, is there is any ineffectual call?

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 20 Jun 2012 2:11:27 PM Close

 Dear Christine,

I don’t know what exactly you want to propagate and establish through these your questions to me. I know that Almighty God devised a plan for  Salvation because I read in John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

God has worked out the details of His plan. I was not consulted. So your question “Do you mean that God needed someone to betray Him for His crucifixion? If so, what is the use of it?” should naturally be addressed to God Almighty. Rom 11:33-36  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. 

Further you have made this comment “If you say that opportunities are given to everyone to get saved, then you have to review your predestination theory. According to your ‘theory’ God did not choose Judas to obtain His privileges, but only to betray Him.  Then, there is no question of God’s privileges being wasted.”

I answer this through the passage From Romans 9/14 -22. “Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

You further asked “Do you, and then find such specific instances for all the Apostles except a few? When there is a God’s effectual call, is there is any ineffectual call?

God has called all His disciples to proclaim the Gospel. The call does not carry the tag "Rrestricted to Apostles only”. But we do not see every believer successful in preaching the Gospel and winning souls like Paul and Peter. That does not imply that the Lord’s call is ineffectual in the case of all believers except Paul & Peter.

P.A.Paulose 

 

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 21 Jun 2012 8:17:15 AM Close

Dear Mr.Paulose,

At the outset, let me tell you Sir, through my questions in my previous post, I wanted to propagate and establish that God did not choose Judas to betray Him, but to proclaim His gospel as a disciple.  Judas was not true to the end. And also, King Solomon was not spiritual hypocrite at first, but a real believer initially, then became an apostate later giving up his original faith and love towards the living God. The alternate concept (and which is wrong) of yours relating to Judas and Solomon is the result of your following Calvinistic predestination and Eternal Security.

 

So, it is not necessary for me to direct my question Do you mean that God needed someone to betray Him for His crucifixion? If so, what is the use of it?

to God Almighty. I have clearly understood God’s purpose in selecting Judas as Apostle; it is like His selecting the other eleven. The untoward happenings in the life of Judas are exactly a lesson and warning to all the believers.

 

Regarding your quoting of Rom 11:33-36, let me tell you that until God accomplishes his plans, we may not know what it is, but that mystery will be revealed to His children at the appropriate time. We read in verse 25 that Paul finds out that mystery and reveals it to the fellow brethren  

Sorry sir, your quoting of Rom 9:14-22 is in no way relevant to my question regarding Judas’ wasting of God’s privilege.

My question is simple:  You have said ‘Judas is also the world’s greatest illustration of wasted privileges’.  According to your predestination doctrine, God’s privilege (Salvation through Christ) is not for all the human beings.  Jesus has shed His blood only for the selected ones and all those selected one will be surely saved according to God’s own willing (man’s will is only an imputed one) and thus this blood will never go waste as it has not been shed for those predestined for hell.  Judas was one such a person, not chosen by God for salvation.  As there is no privilege for Judas from God, he can not waste that privilege.  Now, Sir, you read once again your statement (given in green).  Give me a simple answer.

God has called all His disciples to proclaim the Gospel. The call does not carry the tag "Rrestricted to Apostles only”. But we do not see every believer successful in preaching the Gospel and winning souls like Paul and Peter. That does not imply that the Lord’s call is ineffectual in the case of all believers except Paul & Peter - Your statement.

 

Dear Paulose, you have made the above statement for my two different questions. I need two separate answers.

 

1.Do you, and then find such specific instances for all the Apostles except a few?

 

The reason for my asking this question is that you have said that you didn’t find specific instances of Judas preaching the Gospel and healing the sick anywhere in the Scriptures. As saying this, you want to imply that Judas had never preached the gospel and healed the sick and he was not chosen for that.

Then we have to logically conclude that those apostles whose account of preaching and healing,  is not registered in the Scripture also never preached the gospel and healed the sick and thus they were not chosen.  Dear Paulose, if you want a detailed account of each and every thing recorded in the Scripture, then you can not carry with you the Bible anywhere, it will be such a huge one.

Don’t assume for yourself that Judas did not preach and healed.  

 

2)When there is a God’s effectual call, is there is any ineffectual call?”

 

I have raised the above question in relation to your statement The doctrine of the final perseverance of the saints teaches that those who are effectually called of God to the exercise of genuine faith will certainly persevere unto final salvation’.  (emphasis is mine) 

Please answer my 2nd question on the basis of your above statement.

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 21 Jun 2012 2:25:54 PM Close

Dear Kristine,

We have already discussed in this forum the question of Predestination at length under several threads which I am sure you are well aware of. Learned brothers like Tomj, George.P. koshy, berach etc have contributed their views to the discussion. I have nothing new to add. Predestination is a Biblical doctrine. The very fact that Jesus came to this world to save the LOST is the clear evidence that there are souls predestined. I am not going to the details as it would be an unnecessary duplication. Should you be interested, you may go through the recent topics of discussion on predestination, Limited atonement, Eternal security and all other relevant topics that are on board.

I disagree with your view that “The untoward happenings in the life of Judas are exactly a lesson and warning to all the believers.” I believe that Judas was never a believer because if he had truly believed he would never have perished.

You have said “According to your predestination doctrine, God’s privilege (Salvation through Christ) is not for all the human beings.  Jesus has shed His blood only for the selected ones and all those selected one will be surely saved according to God’s own willing (man’s will is only an imputed one) and thus this blood will never go waste as it has not been shed for those predestined for hell.  Judas was one such a person, not chosen by God for salvation.  As there is no privilege for Judas from God, he cannot waste that privilege.

Concerning Predestination, I don’t say God selected some and rejected others. I think your understanding of the Theory of Predestination is different from that of mine. May I request you to explain your understanding of this concept in the light of some verses like Eph 1/11, 1Peter 1/20, Rev 17/8, Luke 19/10, Rom 9/16, Rom 8/33 etc?

I said “Judas is also the world’s greatest illustration of wasted privileges’ I never meant that Judas was a saved person who lost salvation. Judas was in the company of the Lord Himself and hence had a wonderful opportunity to amass the imperishable wealth in eternity. So are we here in this world living the precious moments of this short sojourn on earth. Every moment of this life is precious as it is our chance to love, obey and please our Father in heaven. The opportunity should never be wasted as Judas had done. That is the message.

Now to answer distinctly, your two questions,

1.    You want me to believe that Judas preached the Good News of Salvation by faith in Jesus and healed many as evidence thereof. I am not fully convinced of the probability and hence I refrain from propagating the assumption that you suggest. When did preaching of the Gospel actually commence?

2.    Concerning perseverance of true believers unto final Salvation, when I said “those who are effectually called of God”, I referred to those who effectively worked out their salvation in life. It does not mean God makes an ineffectual call but we do see a difference in the way that the called ones “work out” their Salvation.

P.A.Paulose 

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 22 Jun 2012 7:52:26 AM Close

Dear Paulose,           

I am not here to teach anyone what is predestination and not to learn it from anyone either.  So, I have no interest to search out the threads those deal with Predestination.  And also the explanation you want from me for the verses like Eph 1/11, 1Peter 1/20, Rev 17/8, Luke 19/10, Rom 9/16, Rom 8/33 will take this thread to Predestination discussion which is not necessary for me at present. This thread has been started by Mr.Tom Johns for different purpose.

My primary intention to deal with you here is only to get the clarity for some of your comments you have made in your posts. The explanation you have provided in your latest post is still unintelligible and I make my questions a little more easily that you can understand (if you have not really understood) what I am expecting.      

 

Your one statement reads “The very fact that Jesus came to this world to save the LOST is the clear evidence that there are souls predestined” and another statements reads “I don’t say God selected some and rejected others”.  I see there is a contradiction between these statements. Do you want me to explain your contradiction?

 

I know that you never meant that Judas was a saved person who lost salvation. You will not say so as you are a supporter of Eternal security. My question is different. When you have said “The opportunity should never be wasted as Judas had done. That is the message”, do you mean that one has to use his free will to make use of the opportunity what God has given to get saved?  According to the predestination doctrine you are holding, one can not utilize God given opportunity, if he is not predestined for salvation ( and so, it is not an opportunity at all)

 

I have given some explanations about the case of King Solomon, please go through them and tell me what your position on that issue is. 

 

Your statement:  You want me to believe that Judas preached the Good News of Salvation by faith in Jesus and healed many as evidence thereof. I am not fully convinced of the probability and hence I refrain from propagating the assumption that you suggest. When did preaching of the Gospel actually commence?

No, I don’t expect that you believe Judas preached the Good News of Salvation by faith in Jesus and healed many as evidence thereof. I do not ask you to propagate that Judas did preach and heal.  It is only you who said first “I don’t find specific instances of Judas preaching the Gospel and healing the sick anywhere in the Scriptures” (Your post dt. 23 May 2012 05:35:22).  So, it seems you are ready to propagate that Judas never preached and healed.  The reason for you to say so, is because Scripture has not recorded such instances.  What you should have done is you must not have uttered such as baseless idea of yours,  as there are also no records in the Scripture for other apostles, but except a few.

 

Your statement:  Concerning perseverance of true believers unto final Salvation, when I said “those who are effectually called of God”, I referred to those who effectively worked out their salvation in life. It does not mean God makes an ineffectual call but we do see a difference in the way that the called ones “work out” their Salvation.

Presently, I suspend asking a question “What is an effectual call” and “what is ‘our working out’ the Salvation” as it may lead predestination discussion.  I may ask these questions, if a separate thread is started.

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 22 Jun 2012 3:13:33 PM Close

 Dear Kristine,

I answer/clarify your question/comments as under.

1. You said & I quote..“Your one statement reads “The very fact that Jesus came to this world to save the LOST is the clear evidence that there are souls predestined” and another statements reads “I don’t say God selected some and rejected others”.  I see there is a contradiction between these statements. Do you want me to explain your contradiction?” 

Explanation: The Bible says that all who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved. (John 3/16, Romans 10:9-10). God never rejects anyone who believes in Him (Deut 4:29). But who can believe in God unless he is drawn by God? John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.  Who can believe unto SALVATION without His Grace? The answer lies in Romans 8:29-30. Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

From Rom 9/20-22, we understand that the mankind has already experienced God’s wrath and have positioned them fit for destruction. Mankind has no right of God’s mercy. But the Bible never says God elects or predestinates some to hell and others to heaven. Those that have received the righteousness of God undeservedly are in that position because God has chosen them to be His children exercising His absolute Sovereignty.

Therefore, there is no contradiction between my statements.

 

2.  “Do you mean that one has to use his free will to make use of the opportunity what God has given to get saved?  According to the predestination doctrine you are holding, one cannot utilize God given opportunity, if he is not predestined for salvation (and so, it is not an opportunity at all)

 Clarification: Every believer has an opportunity. Judas was never a believer. His cunning idea that joining hands with Jesus would help bringing to an end the Roman Empire leads him to Christ. How do I know I am chosen? Belief alone is the sure evidence of election. Belief leads to saving faith and the saving faith is a gift of God. 

3. Your comment “So, it seems you are ready to propagate that Judas never preached and healed.”

My Reply: Why do you try to force upon me your wild imagination? Where did I say so? Why should I propagate what is not expressly authenticated in the Scripture? 

P.A.Paulose

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 23 Jun 2012 5:30:52 AM Close

Dear Paulose,

For your explanation about your contradictory statements, my comment follows: 

From your first statement ‘ The very fact that Jesus came to this world to save the LOST is the clear evidence that there are souls predestined’, I understand that you mean Jesus came to this world only to save those souls which are predestined for salvation which means Jesus died on the cross for them only , then it is easy to conclude that Jesus has kept the others outside His salvation plan, which is obviously a rejection by God.(You have also said in your explanation that “Who can believe unto SALVATION without His Grace?”). Your second statement “ I don’t say God selected some and rejected others” is just opposite to this view.  I understand the trouble your are facing.  You are hesitating to say openly that God has selected some and rejected the others, but it is in your heart that God has no Grace to make everyone on the earth believing Him.

 

Regarding the ‘opportunity to receive God’s privilege’ you are again not clear in your explanation. First of all what is this opportunity? It is way open to every one to believe and get saved. If one has used this opportunity and got saved, he is called a believer, and then he need not rely on this opportunity any more, as he has been saved once for all. The what you have said “Every believer has an opportunity’ in your clarification has no meaning. And also your caution “The opportunity should never be wasted as Judas had done. That is the messagehas no value.  How can a believer waste that opportunity as he has been already saved once for all because of his making use of that opportunity?

 

Please can you express your hidden idea in your saying “I don’t find specific instances of Judas preaching the Gospel and healing the sick anywhere in the Scriptures (Your post dt.23 May 2012 05:35:22)

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 23 Jun 2012 6:23:55 AM Close

And Sir, you have made some remarks on King Solomon in your post dt. 23 May 2012 05:35:22 and I have given some explanations about the case of King Solomon, please go through them and tell me what your position on that issue is. 

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 23 Jun 2012 12:45:13 PM Close

Dear Kristine,

I once again explain the Scripture so that you realize how stupid you sound when you falsely accuse me of saying “that God has no Grace to make everyone on the earth believing Him.

God loved the world. He gave His only begotten Son to be the propitiation to make atonement. Thus God is satisfied, the propitiation took place, and our entrance into God’s presence is completed. . 1 Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 1Jn 4:10  Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

The benefit of justification that was thus made available to the world through the act of propitiation by the blood of Jesus Christ is not obtained automatically; it is only through the faith in Christ that one receives it. Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. “Many” does not mean the whole world. Jesus bore the sins of those “many” who believe in Him.

We don’t see that Jesus loved the world. Joh 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Jesus loved the Church, His bride, the company of the redeemed people. He prayed for them; not for the whole world but for those which the Father had given Him.

Secondly, I spoke of the “Opportunity” for the believers to amass imperishable treasures in heaven. You speak of the opportunity to be saved by faith. Judas lost the opportunity both to believe and to obtain many a crowns in heaven.

Concerning hidden ideas, I don’t have any. If you find in the Scripture, some specific instances of Judas preaching and healing, please do direct me to those passages.

Solomon was a person who received great blessings from God at a young age. He had great opportunities. But from the Scripture I realize how he wasted all those opportunities. However great & blessed one be, it is impossible to believe and obey unto salvation without God’s Grace.

P.A.Paulose 

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 25 Jun 2012 10:08:36 AM Close

Cool down dear Paulose, don’t get annoyed. 

Before calling me a stupid, please go through your own statements carefully.

 

You have clearly said  “Who can believe unto SALVATION without His Grace?” (Your post dt.22 Jun 2012 15:13:33).  It is not difficult to understand that you say that those who do not believe unto Salvation had not actually received God’s Grace before hand and hence there is nothing wrong in my accusing you of saying “that God has no Grace to make everyone on the earth believing Him” as everyone do not believe unto SAVATION.

 

I do not understand why you have quoted 1 John 4:9, 10 as I have not denied those verses anywhere. Now let me speak about the context of these verses.  The central idea of these verses is that brethren should love each other, that is in verse 11. Since Christ loves you equally like He loves me, I should not be quick to call you a stupid without love. We should reflect the love of Christ between each other.  1 John 4:9, 10 do not have any place in our subject for discussion.

 

Hebrews 9:28 is exactly a verse that stands against Eternal Security. You have said  (in this same post) that God loved the world.  I hope you mean that everyone in this world. Further let me say that He loves every one that they all should be saved. Then, it can not be denied that His remission of blood is also for everyone, but alas! you say that “many” does not mean the whole world. If “many” who are dead through the offence of one (The first Adam) are ‘all’ in this world,   and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto “many” (all) (Roman 5:15). 

 

My explanation for Hebrews 9:28 is this:

 

When Christ came to this world first time, He gave Himself as a sacrifice on the cross for many (for all).  Time between first and second coming is a period of Grace for all to repent and He will finally come for the second time to save literally whoever looks for Him (waiting for Him).  “Looking for Him” means “not going back from Him” (For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end – Heb 3:14) Hebrew 9:28 does not support your ‘Predestination’ doctrine.

 

While quoting John 17:9, you say “We don’t see that Jesus loved the world’, whereas in the 2nd paragraph, you have said “God loved the world”.  Why do you contradict yourself so much?

 

What Jesus said in His prayer “ ..... I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine’  does not mean that Jesus have no concern for the souls of this world.  ‘Predestinationists’ always take literal meaning for whatever they read. This is one specific prayer what Christ prayed unto Father. Christ was alone in prayer on other occasions praying unto God for other general causes, but this is a moment that he will be shortly departing his disciples and he needed they should be strengthened in their faith and spirit.  He was very much concerned only for His disciples in this particular prayer. Please think over deeply in Spirit.   

 

I don’t understand why you should point at Judas as an example to caution the believers for not to loose the opportunity of amassing imperishable treasure in heaven.  He was not chosen by God to believe unto SALVATION and to preach and heal. Then, thereby  naturally he did not get the chance to use the opportunity. Believers once saved for ever, according to your predestination theory, have no lesson from an ‘unsaved’ Judas.   

 

I have not opened the issue of Judas preaching and healing, whereas you said first without my asking “I don’t find specific instances of Judas preaching the Gospel and healing the sick anywhere in the Scriptures (Your post dt.23 May 2012 05:35:22). Please tell me what the necessity is for you to say so.

 

Solomon was a person who received great blessings from God at a young age. He had great opportunities. But from the Scripture I realize how he wasted all those opportunities. However great & blessed one be, it is impossible to believe and obey unto salvation without God’s Grace. – Your funny statement.

 

At the end of the above statement, you have apparently said that Solomon did not believe and obey God, because God had on Grace for him.  You mean God’s love towards him must be without grace. It is wonder to see that the unsaved Solomon must have been filled with the Spirit of God to write ‘The Proverbs” and “Ecclessiastes”.  Finally according to your statement I have to conclude that Since God has no Grace for Solomon, he could not use the opportunities and not wasted the opportunities.

 

Oh, Perversion! Is thy name ‘Calvinistic Predestination?

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 25 Jun 2012 10:53:45 AM Close

No; my dear Kristine, I am not yet all annoyed, rather I am happy that I got in you an experimental guinea pig. You have mentioned several issues and so I attempt to respond to each of them as brief as I can, point by point.

1.       “That God has no Grace to make everyone on the earth believing Him” Since God has no Grace for Solomon, he could not use the opportunitiesThese are not my words. You are in the habit of thrusting upon me your feelings that reflect your ignorance and accuse me for the same. Henceforth avoid doing so.

2.       “John 4:9, 10 do not have any place in our subject for discussion. I quoted the verse to show to you that the death of Jesus Christ on the cross was an act of PROPITIATION….If at all you per chance, you happen to understand what Propitiation means!

3.       “Then, it can not be denied that His remission of blood is also for everyone, but alas! you say that “many” does not mean the whole world.”  No doubt, Christ offered Himself on the Cross as a Propitiation for ALL. That does not mean that His death has brought about remission of sins of the whole world. If it was so, the hell would not exist after His death on the Cross.

4.       “Hebrew 9:28 does not support your ‘Predestination’ doctrine” Predestination is not my doctrine. It is a Biblical truth. Do you deny this Biblical truth? If yes, substantiate your denial duly considering the verses I have referred to i.e. Eph 1/4, 1/11, 1Peter 1/20, Rev 17/8, Luke 19/10, Rom 9/16, Rom 8/33 etc?

5.       “While quoting John 17:9, you say “We don’t see that Jesus loved the world’, whereas in the 2ndparagraph, you have said “God loved the world”.  Why do you contradict of yourself so much? Jesus is God; God the Father is God; the Holy Spirit is God. Remember, Jesus is NOT the God the Father, the Father is NOT the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is NOT Jesus Christ. They are three distinct persons.

continued 

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 25 Jun 2012 3:46:49 PM Close

Dear 'kristine,'

After reading some of your statements on predestination, I invite you to study that subject from the Scriptures.  I am not asking you to study from the Calvinists, but from God and His words.  To help you in this matter, I am posting a new thread on predestination.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 25 Jun 2012 4:14:12 PM Close

6.       “He was very much concerned only for His disciples in this particular prayer. Please think over deeply in Spirit.  I will not accede to your request for accommodating your perverted view. Jesus did not pray for the whole world. He prayed for those whom God had given Him. He knew His sheep and He also knew that the WORLD would hate them as it did to Him, because they belong to Him and not to the World.

7.       “I have not opened the issue of Judas preaching and healing, whereas you said first without my asking Dear Christine, “If Jesus had called out ‘unsaved’ Judas to carry out God’s ministry, then we can presume that God will do so today also for some purpose unknown to us, thus there will be some unsaved ‘minister’ among ourselves as appointed by God. Aren’t these your words of your post 20 Jun 2012 06:59:04?

8.       “Unsaved Solomon must have been filled with the Spirit of God to write ‘The Proverbs” and “Ecclessiastes”.  Are you trying to argue that every person whomever God uses as an instrument in His hands to accomplish His purposes should invariably be rewarded with entry into heaven? Do you believe Solomon is in heaven today?

9..       “Oh, Perversion! Is thy name ‘Calvinistic Predestination?

Calvin is name that I came across per chance while surfing some subject on the internet.  I found a list giving difference between Calvinism and Armenianism. I got interested and put it on this forum to know more about the topics involved. You participated in the discussion with... you know what... attacking McArthur, one of the gifted Lord’s servants. I could learn much from the contributions of learned brothers like George.P.Koshy, Tom Johns, P.T.verghese, Mosses and many others. I know none of them personally except through this forum. I am not a Calvinist, not a Koshyist, Tomist, Verghesist or Mossessist. But I am grateful to all of them for they have enriched me with knowledge of Truth and helped me in my edification. I love them and pray for them as I translate the knowledge into my practical life....Well, all throughout, you have argued against Calvinism. Let me ask you now, Can you tell me what is your own KRISTINEISM?

P.A.Paulose  

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 26 Jun 2012 10:35:49 AM Close

Your Statement: 1.That God has no Grace to make everyone on the earth believing Him”  “Since God has no Grace for Solomon, he could not use the opportunities” These are not my words. You are in the habit of thrusting upon me your feelings that reflect your ignorance and accuse me for the same. Henceforth avoid doing so. 

My comment: I am not thrusting upon you my feelings.  What I have said is that I have found out from your statements only. When you have said Who can believe unto SALVATION without His Grace?” (Your post dt.22 Jun 2012 15:13:33) you mean that for one to believe God, first God should have Grace on him, then only he can believe God.  Then, logically ‘all’ in the world do not believe in God, but only a few, because God does not have Grace for ‘all’ in the world, but only a few. Regarding the case of Solomon, you have said ‘However great & blessed one be, it is impossible to believe and obey unto salvation without God’s Grace’ (Your post dt. 23 Jun 2012 12:45:13).You have clearly said that the reason for Solomon’s unbelief and disobey is there is no Grace from God.     

Your statement:3.“Then, it can not be denied that His remission of blood is also for everyone, but alas! you say that “many” does not mean the whole world.”  No doubt, Christ offered Himself on the Cross as a Propitiation for ALL. That does not mean that His death has brought about remission of sins of the whole world. If it was so, the hell would not exist after His death on the Cross. 

My comment: Christ’s death only is the offering He made on the cross as a propitiation for ALL.  The purpose here is to bring in ALL into God’s kingdom.  Look into Roman 5:15 I have already quoted. 

Your statement:4.“Hebrew 9:28 does not support your ‘Predestination’ doctrine” Predestination is not my doctrine. It is a Biblical truth. Do you deny this Biblical truth? If yes, substantiate your denial duly considering the verses I have referred to i.e. Eph 1/4, 1/11, 1Peter 1/20, Rev 17/8, Luke 19/10, Rom 9/16, Rom 8/33 etc? 

My reply: As I have already said in the beginning and at the end of my post dt. 22 Jun 2012 07:52:26, I don’t want to take this thread for a lengthy discussion of Predestination 

Your statement:5.  “While quoting John 17:9, you say “We don’t see that Jesus loved the world’, whereas in the 2ndparagraph, you have said “God loved the world”.  Why do you contradict of yourself so much?” Jesus is God; God the Father is God; the Holy Spirit is God. Remember, Jesus is NOT the God the Father, the Father is NOT the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is NOT Jesus Christ. They are three distinct persons.

My comment: Do you mean that Jesus will not love what the God, the father loves?  We are looking God, the Father in Christ.  Don’t misinterpret the Trinity concept for your convenience.

Your  statement:6. “He was very much concerned only for His disciples in this particular prayer. Please think over deeply in Spirit.  I will not accede to your request for accommodating your perverted view. Jesus did not pray for the whole world. He prayed for those whom God had given Him. He knew His sheep and He also knew that the WORLD would hate them as it did to Him,

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 26 Jun 2012 10:36:56 AM Close

because they belong to Him and not to the World.

My comment: I know in that particular prayer Jesus did not pray for the world. That was a special prayer wherein Jesus uphold his disciples for the reason I have already given in my previous post. The world’s hating has not caused Jesus hating the world. Jesus still loves all in this world to be saved.

Your statement:7. “I have not opened the issue of Judas preaching and healing, whereas you said first without my asking Dear Christine, “If Jesus had called out ‘unsaved’ Judas to carry out God’s ministry, then we can presume that God will do so today also for some purpose unknown to us, thus there will be some unsaved ‘minister’ among ourselves as appointed by God.” Aren’t these your words of your post 20 Jun 2012 06:59:04?

My reply: Once again, I say that you only first raised the issue of Judas preaching and healing. You said “I don’t find specific instances of Judas preaching the Gospel and healing the sick anywhere in the Scriptures”. That was on 23 May 2012 05:35:22. And what I said that you have marked in blue was posted by me only after about a month’s time. Then, the point I am focusing in my saying is entirely different that of yours. From your statement in green, it is understood you mean that Judas was not called out for preaching and healing, which you don’t want to accept now openly. What I have said (in blue) conveys the meaning that God will not appoint unsaved person for His ministry, Judas was appointed for God’s ministry and it shows that he was initially a saved person, but lost the salvation at the end.

Your statement:8. “Unsaved Solomon must have been filled with the Spirit of God to write ‘The Proverbs” and “Ecclessiastes”.  Are you trying to argue that every person whomever God uses as an instrument in His hands to accomplish His purposes should invariably be rewarded with entry into heaven? Do you believe Solomon is in heaven today?

My comment: To find out that the person used by God is entitled to enter into heaven, you must see for what purpose God is using him and how God interacts with him.  The purpose God used Solomon was holy one. It was to rule his people wisely, to build his temple and above all to write Holy books.,  For all this God will use only His child.  God loved Solomon from his childhood. Only because of that love, God warned him twice, when he was turning his back to God.  I f he was an unsaved person from the beginning and predestined for hell, God’s warning is meaningless. I don’t believe Solomon is in heaven today, as he has lost his salvation because of his apostasy.

9. “Oh, Perversion! Is thy name ‘Calvinistic Predestination?” – In this my statement, I have expressed only my anguish and there is nothing for me to discuss with you specifically.

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 27 Jun 2012 4:01:48 AM Close

Dear Kristine,

You have revealed where exactly the problem lies. You have admitted that What I have said is that I have found out from your statements only.You read my posts with your foolish preconceived notions and so you arrive at inferences that are diametrically opposite to the letter and spirit of the Word of God. For example see for yourself how stupid you sound when you say You have clearly said that the reason for Solomon’s unbelief and disobey is there is no Grace from God

You are adamant on Judas, your friend. You say “Judas was appointed for God’s ministry and it shows that he was initially a saved person, but lost the salvation at the end.Well, I have not read that appointment letter in the Bible but for argument sake let me concede to your statement. How does it matter? Even if a ten thousand had been saved because of Judas’ preaching, it never establishes that Judas had received Salvation which you claim that your friend lost at a later stage. Even today we can find many a preachers, highly effective and acclaimed but bearing an abominable testimony before God, someone like your mentor who is in jail for child abuse.

Concerning Solomon You said “I don’t believe Solomon is in heaven today, as he has lost his salvation because of his apostasy. Can you tell me when did God grant Salvation to Solomon and can you provide evidence for the same from the Scripture and not from your inference wrong as usual?

 When you speak of Judas and Solomon you exhibit your ignorance of the very concept of Predestination. Please do read Bro. George. P. Koshy’s post on Predestination with special emphasis to the following statements. (1) The knowledge of God is not by successive approximation and successive increment. But the knowledge of man is by successive approximation and in successive increments. We should not bring God down to our level. (2) The law of complement is not applicable to God’s will and actions. Therefore, logical reasoning such as: “If God predestinated some to heaven, then He predestinated some to hell” should not be followed. If we insist to do so, then we are bringing God down to our level to be governed by our logic that is tainted with our sinful nature. If we read the scriptures, then we will come to know that ‘predestination’ appears in connection with believers and not unbelievers. (3) Predestination is not an inference, but it is a direct observation from the scripture. When we reject a direct statement from the scripture through the use of ‘law of complement,’ ‘leading questions,’ etc., then we are willfully rejecting God’s word.

Let me give an example. Take our own case, you and I. We both belong to a species called the mankind. Right from the very first act of disobedience, the mankind fell short of glory and came under the wrath of God. We both continued under the wrath of God where we rightly deserved to be because we belong to the mankind and by nature, sinful humans. Then, whilst being where we were, it pleased the Almighty God, to exercise His pleasure as Absolute Sovereign to adopt me as His son. The Sovereign God fulfilled everything needed to justify His act of choosing me in accordance with His own Righteousness. So I am there enjoying His grace with my Father. And you were not chosen; so you remain at where you rightly deserve to, denying the truth, very much awaiting your days with your good friend Judas and Solomon with whom you sympathize much. God has NOT destined you to it. God has not chosen you (as He did it with me) do not mean that He has done any injustice or partiality against you. You are at where you deserve to be. That is the essence of Predestination.

P.A.Paulose 

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 27 Jun 2012 8:36:13 AM Close

Dear Paulose,

You have showered a torrential fire of your anger on me as you could not tolerate the bare facts I have exposed of your inconsistent statements.

Please clarify your following statements, at least for the understanding of the readers, if I, a fool and stupid could not understand:

Who can believe unto SALVATION without His Grace?” (Your post dt.22 Jun 2012 15:13:33)

However great & blessed one be, it is impossible to believe and obey unto salvation without God’s Grace’ (Your post dt. 23 Jun 2012 12:45:13).

Judas who lived two thousand years ago is neither a friend nor an enemy of me. He is only a historical example of apostasy. But I know he was a familiar friend of Christ (Psalm 41:9, Matt 26:50). To see the appointment letter, please go through Matt: 10:1, 5-42.

Mr.Paulose you have asked me the question: “Can you tell me when did God grant Salvation to Solomon and can you provide evidence for the same from the Scripture and not from your inference wrong as usual?

See for the Scriptural evidence:

1.  God loved Solomon when he was born and named him specially

... and the Lord loved him and he sent by the hand of Nathan the prophet; and he called his name Jedidiah, because of the Lord. – 2 Sam 12:24, 25

2. God chose Solomon for Him and made him His son

And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father – 1 Chronicles 28:6

3. God was Solomon’s God

And keep the charge of the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself – 1 Kings 2:3

4. Solomon too loved the lord in the beginning

And Solomon loved the Lord, walking in the statutes of David his father - 1 Kings 3:3

5.  As a son of God, what Solomon had to do and what not to do

And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever. Take heed now; for the Lord hath chosen thee to build an house for the sanctuary: be strong, and do it - 1 Chro 28:9, 10.

Dear Paulose, in this thread, I am dealing with you only to get clarification for your statements.  I have no interest to learn your wrong predestination teaching from Koshy or any of your folk.  I have already said this in my post dt.22 Jun 2012 07:52:26.

You have created an example of you and me to take a sadist pleasure of determining me un chosen and hell bound.  If one does not accept your wrong teaching as truth, you enjoy the right of stamping him as not chosen.  So arrogant you are Mr.paulose. There exists a spirit of Killer Calvin in you.

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 27 Jun 2012 9:22:00 AM Close

One more point.  According to the words of Peter ( 2 Peter 1:21), Solomon was a holy man who was moved by the Holy Ghost to write the Holy books of ‘Proverbs’ and ‘Ecclesiastes’

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 27 Jun 2012 9:44:54 AM Close

Dear Tom Johns,

You have said in your post dt.16 May 2012 20:46:22 that you would post reply for my queries. More than 40 days had passed and I am looking for your answers.

Don’t neglect me as a stupid or fool.

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 27 Jun 2012 4:56:32 PM Close

Dear Kristine,

You want me to clarify my two statements and nothing more.  I will explain and do more as well.

1.Who can believe unto SALVATION without His Grace?” (Your post dt.22 Jun 2012 15:13:33)

2. ‘However great & blessed one be, it is impossible to believe and obey unto salvation without God’s Grace’ (Your post dt. 23 Jun 2012 12:45:13).

In both the above statements I have argued that for Salvation, Belief (faith) is essential and it is impossible to believe or sustain faith without Grace of God. These are undisputed Bible truths and I am sure that readers will not appreciate undue explanation on these basic truths. Anyway, for you alone, as per your specific request (and in order that you may once again come up with your perverted inferences) I quote hereunder the relevant verses that substantiate my statements.

(a)Salvation is by faith:

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

 (b)Salvation is by Grace from God:

 

Psa 3:8 Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

 (c)God, as part of His saving work, secures our perseverance. True believers “are kept by the power of God through faith for Salvation.

 

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

1Co 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.1Co 1:9  God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

You have given evidence to show that God loved Solomon, chose him to be His son, etc. I don’t deny that. I also do not deny that Judas was a trusted disciple of Jesus and was also included in the twelve when sent out for the ministry. But none of these can be accepted as conclusive proof to say that they were saved. Lord Jesus is the only authority to judge a soul. We can only trust in His promises.

But unfortunately, as usual you derive a wrong conclusion. Are you trying to portray God as a poor helpless weakling doing all His best trying time & again to save souls but failing always when you say “Solomon was a holy man who was moved by the Holy Ghost to write the Holy books of ‘Proverbs’ and ‘Ecclesiastes’. God warned him twice, when he was turning his back to God”….and concludingI don’t believe Solomon is in heaven today, as he has lost his salvation because of his apostasy.””?

You say that I am arrogant. Yes; I am indeed humble before God and arrogant before persons like you. I am proud of myself in being so.

 You sayThere exists a spirit of Killer Calvin in you.” Thus far you have been attacking MacArthur. Now you accuse a person who I believe is no more in this world as he is with the Lord and can’t defend himself against your filthy tirade. Shame on you Kristine! Now tell me whom did Calvin kill? 

P.A.Paulose

 

 

 

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 28 Jun 2012 10:04:35 AM Close

Dear Paulose,

Believing/faith is obligatory, not imputable.  No true Christian can deny that Salvation is a free gift from God through Christ and it is God’s Grace that saves one. But the basic requirement is one’s believing God in Christ. God does not impute this faith to only the selected ones.  He does not limit His Grace only for them.  Your statements deny this fundamental truth.  God is willing to accept any one as His child in Christ.  His hands are open to accept all.

I will elaborate next week with sufficient verses that how one should be diligent to continue in his faith and I will explain how the verses you have quoted should be rightly understood.

When you made a question asking me for evidence in the Scripture to proof that Solomon was once saved, it was your expectation that no such evidence is there in the Bible and hence I could not produce the proof.  But, when I have given you the solid verses to prove the truth you are not willing to accept them. Even, God’s very own words, saying that He had chosen Solomon as His son is not a sufficient proof.  You accept that Judas was Christ’s trusted disciple, but that is not sufficient for you to accept that he was once saved. ‘Bad’ Scripture does not reconcile with your ‘good’ Calvinism.  Calvinism has terribly blinded you against the Truth. Hopeless, no one can make your eyes open, when you willingly stand against Truth.      

I am not trying to portray God as a poor helpless weakling doing all His best trying time & again to save souls but failing always. He had done His best once on the Cross of Calvary and He said ‘it is finished’ Then it is on man’s part that he has to believe Him for Salvation. God is faithful to keep safe from the odd things only those who are willing to humble themselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt them in due time (1 Peter 5:7). There is no issue of winning or failing of God. In Solomon’s case, if he was not destined for Salvation, why should God warn him twice?  Then what is the meaning of David’s saying “if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever. Take heed now” (1 Chro 28:10)?

You said that you are an arrogant before person like me.  Your arrogance is that you are judging me that I am not a God’s chosen person.  Who did give you the authority to determine that I am a hell bound?  Are you the watch dog of God’s kingdom? Nonsense, this kind of arrogance is diabolical.

 

You have said “Lord Jesus is the only authority to judge a soul. We can only trust in His promises”. Then who are you to judge me? When did you take out from Christ, the charge of judging others?

 

Understand one thing; God’s promises are not unconditional.

 

There is no rule saying that if a person is not alive he should not be criticized. The, we should not speak about any persons who are no more on the earth. On available sources which are reliable, we can make criticism on even dead persons. To know about Calvin, go through the following link:

 

http://freeebooks.itz4u.com/_Ebooks/Doctrines/Calvinism.pdf

 

(No, the owners of this link are not my mentors)

 

I will meet you again on this forum possibly by next week.

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 28 Jun 2012 1:47:15 PM Close

Is Salvation through Jesus Christ is conditional?

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 29 Jun 2012 8:00:43 AM Close

Dear Kristine,

The problem is that either you do not know the fundamental truths or, knowing the truth, you willfully deny them. See my post, I have said it is impossible to believe or sustain faith without Grace of God. I say so because Eph 2:8 says “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.” How will God impute to the believer faith on God Himself? You should try to learn the meaning of the word “Impute”. Jesus Christ has imputed the Righteousness that He secured by His accomplished work of Salvation, to believers that are chosen as reflected in the omniscience and Sovereignty of God. God does not limit His Grace to any specific group. It is like all are invited and all those that enter through the gate (Jesus Christ) by His grace are the chosen of God.

I and all true believers do rightly understand the verses that I have quoted and we know the importance of divine diligence. You need NOT waste your week end struggling to bring before us your perverted inferences from your wrong interpretation of those verses. Your mentors have already polluted the cyberspace with Tons of such crap.

While speaking about Solomon, you continue to demonstrate the fact that you know not true God because you exhibit your ignorance by saying that God “Saved” once and then your helpless god watched him lose his Salvation in spite of his warnings. You label Scripture “Bad” because it does not support your ignorance. What do you infer when you find God putting repeated ‘if’s to Solomon while pronouncing His promises? Do you think God didn’t know what Solomon would do in his later days?

I was not judging you Kristine. Jesus alone is the judge of all. I don’t usurp His seat. Jesus will judge you when you will stand before His white throne.

You try to justify your diatribe against Calvin. Calvin is with the Lord. I am not worried about him as I am with you Kristine, Luk 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

With Love

P.A.Paulose 

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 1 Jul 2012 11:25:35 AM Close

Dear Kristine,

Due to some travel requirements, I was away for a period of time. Even as I post this I am away. In the last 10 days, this is the 1st time I had internet access. Please forgive me for not updating my status. Once I return, I will go through the postings and will contribute as much as i can. Thank you for your consideration. I glanced through the postings and I noticed that many brothers are answering your questions and concerns from the scriptures. I appreciate their help.

Tom Johns

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Reply by : georgemathews   View Profile   Since : 2 Jul 2012 11:14:22 AM Close

Br. P A Paulose, One doubt regarding your statement,    "  Jesus will judge you when you will stand before His white throne."

According to  [Rev 20:11], White throne judgement is for un-saved people. Can you clarify? 

Note: if this is not related to the said topic, please igniore and can start a new thread.

 

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 3 Jul 2012 11:23:00 AM Close

Dear Paulose,

I took a break for a few days for some personal reasons.  It was not to struggle to bring any explanations before you. They are readily available and I need not struggle for them.  I thought that I am morally bound to bring the explanation, as a response to the verses you have quoted.  Anyway, since you are not ready to read such an explanation, I too will not take interest to post the explanation. 

It is your statement: “I have said it is impossible to believe or sustain faith without Grace of God.”  Exact meaning of this statement is that for one to believe in God, God’s Grace is a must.  In other words, many in this world do not believe God, because God has not shown them His mercy. Even a layman can easily understand this simple fact of your statement. Then, what is the mistake you try to find from my comments all through my posts?

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:  Not of works, lest any man should boast – Eph 2:8, 9

The gift here mentioned is only Salvation, not the faith.  God is Grace to grant this gift to anyone who believes Him. Observing any law of justice has no place in attaining this Salvation. Any more explanation from me will be ‘perverted inferences’ for you.

One of your statements reads:  “I and all true believers do rightly understand the verses that I have quoted and we know the importance of divine diligence” Saying so, you mean that persons like me who do not ‘rightly’ understand the verses as you have ‘understood’ are not true believers and thus we are not God’s chosen. You know the importance of divine diligence and hence you will ignore the importance of a believer’s diligence. Read 2 Peter 1:10, 11

By what I said about Solomon, you are concluding that I knew not the true God and thereby once again you want to exhibit that I am an unsaved. So, according to you, understanding and accepting Calvinism is the only source for one to be saved. What cruel thinkers you people are? Your saying at the end part of your post “I was not judging you Kristine” is a humbug. You are cryptically making this judgment wherever possible. 

I have not labeled Scripture as ‘bad’ on my own accord. I said that from your point of view and you know that well. Even the very words of God saying that He has chosen Solomon as His son which is recorded in the Scripture is not sufficient for you to accept Solomon was a saved one to begin with. This ‘insufficiency’ of the Scripture makes it lesser than your Calvinism dogma. It is ridiculous for you to ask the question ‘ What do you infer when you find God putting repeated ‘if’s to Solomon while pronouncing His promises?’ as I have already well explained the case of Solomon in my previous posts. It is now on your part that you have to find out the reason why God warned Solomon, His son twice. Why do you hesitate to look into what King David said to his son, Solomon “if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever. Take heed now” (1 Chro 28:10)?

Explain your rhetoric question ‘Do you think God didn’t know what Solomon would do in his later days?’

It is good to read that Jesus will judge me.  So, you are exempted from God’s judgment.  Paulose, don’t live in the fools paradise of Calvinism.                

I can not go five hundred years backward to catch hold Calvin red handed to bring before you to justify what I said about him. I trust the information I read about him is correct and it is historically recorded. You may have the pleasure in thinking that Calvin is in the utopian paradise you are looking for.  But, I am least concerned about his whereabouts now.  After all, he is a dead person.  But I have a concern for you, still a living person and you must heed to what Peter says: 

Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;  for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ – 2 Peter 1:10, 11

Strangely, you have ended your last post, unlike your other posts, saying ‘with love’. What kind of love is it? I am not a chosen person, your god has no mercy for me, he will not love me to predestine for salvation, and then why do you love me? Is it a voice from a wolf in sheep’s clothing?

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 3 Jul 2012 3:00:26 PM Close

Dear Kristine,

 You say “The gift here mentioned is only Salvation, not the faith.” In Eph 2:8,9 it is abundantly clear that although men are required to believe for salvation, even that faith (belief) is part of the gift of God which saves and can’t be exercised by one’s own power. That is a clear evidence of man’s total depravity. God’s Grace is preeminent in every aspect of salvation.

I am surprised that you have created a very feeble small fry as a god for yourself.

A god that a makes a free gift to someone whom he has not empowered to safeguard it of his own. Your god snatches it away at will. The most unreliable flicker indeed!

A god that is incapable of preserving those that it saves. Even a humble poor human being is capable of protecting and providing for its progeny. Your stupid god produces “sons” granting free salvation, but is incapable of sustaining them in faith. Your god is inferior to even the least of animals that he claims to have “created”. Your god is a mean, abject item subservient to the Sovereign Will of man. He is a perpetual failure. Look at the performance level of your god. You will be ashamed. Your effeminate god should immediately give up this business of “producing” children.

You said It is good to read that Jesus will judge me.  So, you are exempted from God’s judgment.  Paulose, don’t live in the fools paradise of Calvinism.”

Have you ever read the following verses in the Bible?

Joh_5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom_5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

You have not only created a stupid effeminate god, you have also made a scripture for yourself that teaches you never to “TRUST” God’s promises. Your scripture teaches you to live in eternal fear of judgment that your useless god may hand out to you. I am not the one of your ilk. I am a child of God, the True God. I am in Jesus Christ. I live a victorious Christian life rejoicing in my Lord every moment of life because I have confidence in Christ Jesus.

You said Strangely, you have ended your last post, unlike your other posts, saying ‘with love’. What kind of love is it?”

Yes, I have much love toward you. I am an animal lover. I love animals so much because…their meat is so tasty.

With an ever increasing LOVE

P.A.Paulose 

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 4 Jul 2012 9:25:11 AM Close

Well said, Paulose.  I understand your desire to taste my flesh. Because you are a true Calvinist with the spirit of Calvin in you.

You have called my God in Christ a fool and you have used many other abusing words.  You said that my ‘stupid’ God produces “sons” granting free salvation, but is incapable of sustaining them in faith. This, you have said referring to God’s selecting Solomon as His son, but who has not maintained his faith till the end of his life.  Fine, I am daring not to make any more comment on you and leaving it to God Himself ( Jude 9b).

I am sure you will not accept, if I give you explanation for John 5:28, Roman 8:1 & 5:18. You have no answers for my questions: ‘Is there any importance in God’s warning to Solomon and David’s warning to Solomon (1 Chro 28:10)?”.  One final say: Trusting God’s promises needs one’s diligent following Christ obediently:

 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness,   to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” - 2 Peter 1:5-12.

I wonder your ever increasing love should not devour the flesh of many like me. Let the Holy Spirit open your eyes.

BYE

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 4 Jul 2012 9:29:17 AM Close

Kind attn: Mr.Tom Johns,

Sir,  You can take your own time to answer my questions.  Let us meet on this forum at your convenience.

 

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Reply by : beracah   View Profile   Since : 4 Jul 2012 12:23:01 PM Close

With the new birth (on being born again), a child of God enters into the most blessed and responsible phase of his existence, while on earth. He has to live a life worthy of Lord Jesus Christ and God the Father; with the help and guidance of God the Holy Spirit. There are many passages admonishing a believer to exercise his faith, bear fruit of the Spirit, be diligent and be careful. But they are not passages intended to threaten a child of God about undoing of his new-birth and thus losing his son-ship /salvation.

 

A child of God is not expected to live a casual, carnal or sinful life. The Holy Spirit abides in him to guide him; the Lord Jesus Christ intercedes for him and protects him; God the Father hold him in His hands and none can snatch him out the hands of the Father. It is the Good Shepherd who gives his sheep eternal life and they shall never perish. John 10:28-30

 

I don’t take the Predestination and the Eternal Security of Salvation as a license to live my life recklessly to indulge the sinful nature. I choose to live an obedient, careful, responsible, diligent life not out of fear of losing salvation or losing my position as a child of God; but because I love the Lord and respect the Father. When I misbehave I feel it inside me and it affects me and robes me of my peace. I also know that when I sin knowingly or unknowingly, I have one who speaks to the Father in my defense – Jesus Christ, the Righteous One 1 John 1:1

 

I can relate with Him not at His high and lofty level but at my lowest level in childlike simplicity. I always marvel and am mystified at His humility.

 

ISA 57:15

For this is what the high and lofty One says--  he who lives forever, whose name is holy:

"I live in a high and holy place, but also with him who is contrite and lowly in spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly and to revive the heart of the contrite”.

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 5 Jul 2012 8:35:12 AM Close

1 John 1:1 does not say anything about Jesus’ interceding for sinning believers. Christ can not intercede for those sin knowingly i.e., willfully. Only when such persons confess their sins, He is faithful and just to forgive them their sins and to cleanse them from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). One individual ‘beracah’s commitment to choose to live an obedient, careful, responsible, diligent life is good in the sight of God, whereas it should not be concluded that all the ‘individual’ believers will have the same spirit always. Then, Satan will have no work to do against God’s children. His walking about like a roaring lion, seeking whom (the believers) he may devour will be meaningless and he does not walk so foolishly. 

Take the case of some individual believers in Corinthian church (2 Cori 12:20, 21): 

“ For I fear lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I wish, and that I shall be found by you such as you do not wish; lest there be contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, backbitings, whisperings, conceits, tumults; lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and I shall mourn for many who have sinned before and have not repented of the uncleanness, fornication, and lewdness which they have practiced”

 

These believers who committed deadly sins before they were believers got entangled in the same sins again and they did not repent. Though they know Christ and are known as Christians, they walked after the flesh, but not after the Spirit. Paul said that he should mourn for them, because he knew that they would face God’s condemnation ( Roman 8:1).

 

‘beracah’ may not have the fear of losing salvation, but unrepentant willful sinners as we see in Corinthian church who have no Spiritual commitment like beracah have to fearfully look for God’s condemnation and have to face the judgment of fiery indignation at the end along with the adversaries (unbelievers) – Heb 10:26.

                                                                        

We can and have to always marvel and be mystified at our Lord’s humility only to the extent of His submitting Himself on the cross to full fill  Father’s will.  Burt when He comes for the second time, we should not expect that he will be as humble as he was before. By then, He will be a reigning King.  We must remember that for the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and it will begin with us first. (1 Peter 4:17).

 

‘beracah’ has rightly said that he can relate with Him not at His high and lofty level but at his lowest level in childlike simplicity, because he knows that God resists the proud (James 4:6). Christ will not intercede for the proud. For this is what the high and lofty One says-- he who lives forever, whose name is holy: "I live in a high and holy place, but also with him who is contrite and lowly in spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly and to revive the heart of the contrite” (Isa 57:15).  God is only with him who is contrite and lowly in spirit, not with him who is an unrepentant willful sinner with pride.

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 5 Jul 2012 12:58:40 PM Close

An better Explanation on Heb 10:26-29 related to Apostasy

10:26   Now the writer introduces his fourth grim warning. As in the previous cases, it is a warning against apostasy, here described as a deliberate sin.

As has been indicated, there is considerable disagreement among Christians as to the real nature of this sin. The problem, in brief, is whether it refers to:

1. True Christians who subsequently turn away from Christ and are lost.

2. True Christians who backslide but who are still saved.

3. Those who profess to be Christians for a while, identify themselves with a local church, but then deliberately turn away from Christ. They were never truly born again, and now they never can be.

No matter which view we hold, there are admitted difficulties. We believe that the third view is the correct one because it is most consistent with the over-all teaching of Hebrews and of the entire NT.

Here in verse 26 apostasy is defined as sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth. Like Judas, the person has heard the gospel. He knows the way of salvation; he has even pretended to receive it; but then he deliberately repudiates it.

For such a person, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. He has decisively and conclusively rejected the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ. Therefore God has no other way of salvation to offer to him.

There is a sense in which all sin is willful, but the author here speaks of apostasy as a willful sin of extraordinary seriousness.

The fact that the author uses we in this passage does not necessarily mean that he includes himself. In verse 39 he definitely excludes himself and his fellow believers from those who draw back into perdition.

10:27   Nothing remains but a certain fearful expectation of judgment; there is no hope of escape. It is impossible to renew the apostate to repentance (Heb_6:4). He has knowingly and willfully cut himself off from God's grace in Christ. His fate is a fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. It is pointless to haggle over whether this means literal fire. The language is obviously designed to denote punishment that is dreadfully severe.

Note that God classes apostates as adversaries. This indicates positive opposition to Christ, not a mild neutrality.

10:28   The doom of the lawbreaker in the OT is now introduced to form a backdrop against which to contrast the greater doom of the apostate. A man who broke Moses' law by becoming an idolater died without mercy when his guilt was proven by the testimony of two or three witnesses (Deu_17:2-6).

10:29   The apostate will be counted worthy of much worse punishment because his privilege has been much greater. The enormity of his sin is seen in the three charges that are leveled against him:

1. He has trampled the Son of God underfoot. After professing to be a follower of Jesus, he now brazenly asserts that he wants nothing more to do with Him. He denies any need for Christ as Savior and positively rejects Him as Lord.

In Japan there is a crucifix which was used by the government in days of persecution. It was placed on the ground, and everybody had to tread on the face of the Crucified. The non-Christians did not hesitate to tread on His face; the real Christians refused and were killed. The story goes that the face of Jesus was worn down and marred by people trampling on it.

2. He has counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing. He counts as useless and unholy the blood of Christ which ratified the New Covenant. He had been set apart by this blood in a place of external privilege. Through his association with Christian people, he had been sanctified, just as an unbelieving husband is sanctified by his believing wife (1Co_7:14). But that does not mean that he was saved.

3. He has insulted the Spirit of grace. The Spirit of God had illuminated him concerning the good news, convicted him of sin, and pointed him to Christ as the only Refuge of the soul. But he had insulted the gracious Spirit by utterly despising Him and the salvation He offered.

 

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Reply by : beracah   View Profile   Since : 6 Jul 2012 7:57:51 AM Close

There was a typographical error while quoting from 1 John in my previous posting. Instead of 1 John 2:1, by oversight, I typed 1 John 1:1. Here is the intended quote which is self explanatory: 

1John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

 

Jesus Christ the Righteous One intercedes if anyone of the dear children does sin and the Savior speaks to the Father in our defense.

 

I am a born again child of God. My new birth was not of any human decision, I am born of God. John 1: 13. It was not a self regeneration. God the Father in his mercy gave me new birth into a living hope. 1 Peter 1:3. I have been born again not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 1 Peter 1:23.

 

1 John 3:9

“No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.” 

 

DNA profiling is done for proving paternity of a child. Here is how the fatherhood of a born-again child of God is established.

 

The new birth the Lord gave me is undoable; it is irreversible; and New Birth is not repeatable. There is no scriptural teaching for being born again... and again … and again ….and again…..repeatedly…… for many times.

 

My choosing to live a life worthy of the calling with which the Lord called me also is not something I do on my own. It is the Lord who works in me to will and to act according to his good purpose. Phil 2:13. I was dead in sins and transgressions and I could not quicken me. I didn’t have the faith in my private resources, by the exercising of which I could save myself. The Lord gifted me saving faith.

 

I also choose to believe the Words of the Lord more than the teachings of men like kristine on the eternal insecurity of salvation; which reminds me of the arguments of Existentialists who believe that “Existence precedes essence”

 

Being a child of God the Lord Jesus gave me eternal life and he protects me and I will not be lost. The Father holds me in his hands and none would succeed in snatching me from out of His hands. John 10:28-30

 

For me God’s testimony is greater than all the men’s testimony. 

1 John 5:11 -12

And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

 

John 10: 27-30

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

 

Lord Jesus Christ came to do the will of His Father and the Lord said the following concerning the will of His Father:

 

John 6:39

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 10 Jul 2012 10:56:30 AM Close

The explanation given by Mr.Sambudhanoor may be a better one for him. He has given that explanation on ‘eternal security’ perspective. I am refuting the third view that he supports.

First, I find one charge Mr. Sam has leveled against Judas. It is “Like Judas, the person has heard the gospel. He knows the way of salvation; he has even pretended to receive it; but then he deliberately repudiates it”. I don’t know how Sam could understand from the Scripture that Judas pretended to receive the salvation. Bible says Judas was a disciple of Christ.  Jesus called only a few according to His will from among many disciples and out of those chosen ones; He selected specifically the twelve to be His apostles and Judas was one of them. Jesus would have never selected an unsaved person for the great ministry. Judas was a saved disciple once at the beginning. I agree with the last part of Sam’s statement. Judas has deliberately repudiated the salvation.  He disowned the salvation once he owned as he betrayed his Master Jesus, Who called Judas His ‘familiar friend’ and whom Christ trusted.  

First of all, one should understand that apostasy is not that one’s renouncing of what he has not, but it is his forfeiting what he has. Deliberate apostasy only is not a willful sin that brings fiery indignation, but all the sins unto death committed deliberately will also bring fiery indignation. The person we see in 1 Cori 5 was a willful sinner explicitly.  We also see such type of sinners in 2 Cori 12:21. All these sinners were tempted when they were drawn away by their own desires and enticed. When these desires have conceived, they give birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. This death is a death of the soul and that is why James says “Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren” (James 1:16).  Such sinners, though they are known as Christians, they deny Christ by their wicked deeds (Titus 1:16). This type of denial is also apparently an apostasy which brings fiery indignation ( Heb 10:26).   

There is one statement I read in Sam’s post : “fact that the author uses we in this passage does not necessarily mean that he includes The himself. In verse 39 he definitely excludes himself and his fellow believers from those who draw back into perdition”. When we read the writer saying ‘we’, it is clear that he has rightly included himself also. The warning is for all the believers in general. Verse 26 is warning wherein the author includes himself along with the other believers, whereas in verse 39, he cites the case of some back sliders who had already drifted away from God, but encourages those who stand in faith (including himself) to stand fast in the faith. Verse 39 does not nullify the effect of caution in verse 26.

One should clearly understand, when reading the verse 30, that this caution pertains to believers only. Read the verse “For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, The Lord will judge His people.” Lord’s people should not be willful sinners and receive God’s judgment of fiery indignation.

Note that God classes apostates as adversaries. This indicates positive opposition to Christ, not a mild neutrality” – This one is also a wrong statement given by Mr. Sam. Writer does not class apostates as virtual adversaries. The apostates who were once professing Christianity rightly are now at the verge of receiving the fiery indignation that pertains only to adversaries. To understand the caution here, we have to refer to the verse “Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them “(Eph 5:6, 7). We should be partakers with the unbelievers in their wicked deeds (sinning willfully) and thus we will also be partakers with them to receive the wrath of God that pertains to those unbelievers.

I don’t know how much more clearly I can explain this plain TRUTH.

If one has rightly understood what I have written so far, no more explanation needed to understand further wrong interpretation given by Sam for Verses 28, 29 onwards. If one does not accept what I have written here, he will not accept what I will write about verses 28, 29 etc,.

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 10 Jul 2012 1:35:55 PM Close

I doubt “Kristine” is the former “satyasnehi” or someway related to him.

You have miss-quoted my posting “Judas has deliberately repudiated the salvation”

 I didn’t write such statement, what I wrote is:

 

“Here in verse 26 apostasy is defined as sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth. Like Judas, the person has heard the gospel. He knows the way of salvation; he has even pretended to receive it; but then he deliberately repudiates it.”

Here, Judas repudiates the knowledge of truth, the way of salvation, which he receives in his head as knowledge. Lot of people in this world has this type of knowledge but they never accept this in heart.

I am posting some answers given to a youngster some years back in the moderated forum, titled Apostasy in the youth forum, this is not for the one who doubt the Eternal Security of Salvation, which Al Mighty God has provided, but for other readers:

 

Heb 10:26-29  For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,   but a certain fearful looking for judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.  He who despised Moses' Law died without mercy on the word of two or three witnesses.   Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy of punishment, the one who has trampled the Son of God, and who has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

 

 Sin willfully means total rejection, apostasy, after received the knowledge of truth.

They receive the knowledge of truth, the Word of God, the Gospel and reject it.

They receive this knowledge in their head (brain) not accept it in heart.

They reject the Jesus Christ the only Saviour, the only way to the God the Father.

They insult, resist  the Holy Spirit, the only sanctifier.

They reject the word of God, Gospel, the only way of Salvation.

 

Great men like Mahatma Gandhi, Swami Vivekanandan and others are made good statement about our Lord Jesus Christ. Swami Vivekanadan said that if he was living in the time of Jesus Christ, he might have washed his feet by the blood of his heart.  These men were received the knowledge of truth, about Christ in their head and making these statements, but they never received him by faith in their heart.

 

The adversary is satan, for him there is a fiery indignation (Hell), one who reject the saving grace, the Gospel have the fiery indignation.

 

Whereas, the true believers are the people who accept Jesus Christ as his personal Saviour by faith in their heart, thus become the Children of God, their Salvation is eternal.

 

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

Joh 6:39  And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day.

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 10 Jul 2012 1:45:51 PM Close

We see Heb 10: 26 Starts with "For if We" that means

Mat 7:22-23  Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works?   And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!

 

There are lot of people amongst the believers, there are fake ones and true believers, it may difficult to distinguish, but our Lord will separate them. Like the fake currency notes amongst the original one.

 

When we can understand one is a fake, when he makes the apostasy, reject the faith.


There are lot of examples in our assemblies, some will come and have fellowship, they act as genuine ones, but certain time they reject it and turn back.

 

As we are going to share the Gospel, some persons agree whatever we say, even they confess with their mouth and come and have fellowship with us, and after sometime they turn back and go to their old way of life, this is apostasy, in such persons case, there is no more sacrifice for sin, they are the fake ones.

 

 

For some persons case they will not makes any apostasy, they stay amongst us, we cannot identify them, but our Lord will separate them in his times.

 

Mat 13:24-30  He put out another parable to them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.   But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed darnel among the wheat and went his way.   But when the blade had sprung up and had produced fruit, then the darnel also appeared.   So the servants of the householder came and said to him, Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Then where have the darnel come from?   He said to them, An enemy has done this. The servants said to him, Then do you want us to go and gather them up?   But he said, No, lest while you gather up the darnel you also root up the wheat with them.   Let both grow together until the harvest. And in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, First gather together the darnel and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my granary.

 

When we come to 1 Timothy 2:1-4,  "be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

 

Here the person be saved thus come to the knowledge of truth,( here  the salvation is happened because he accept it in his heart), whereas in Heb  10: 26 after received the knowledge of truth, "willfully sin" = apostasy (here salvation is not happened because he accept it as knowledge in his head), that is why he/she is making the apostasy. Gospel is the knowledge of truth, whoever hear the gospel need to be accepted in his heart.

 

Who can do the following.

1.      the one who has trampled the Son of God

2.     who has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an        unholy  thing,

3.     has insulted the Spirit of grace?

 

Of course this can do by an unbeliever or a fake believer.

 

True believer cannot do this because he/she has been sealed by the Holy Spirit, and guided by the Holy spirit, his/her salvation is secured in Heavenly Father's hand.

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 12 Jul 2012 9:32:07 AM Close

Sam does not understand what he himself has written. In his post (5 Jul 2012 12:58:40), his statement reads: “He knows the way of salvation; he has even pretended to receive it; but then he deliberately repudiates it.” (Emphasis mine). What is said about Judas’ pretending to receive is salvation only.  Then my comment “I agree with the last part of Sam’s statement. Judas has deliberately repudiated the salvation” on his above statement is exactly right. There is no misquoting by me.

 First of all, we have to observe that the author of the epistle includes himself along with other believers when he passes the warning in verse 26. The verse is: “ For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins”.  The author does not speak about any fake believers, any pretenders, but exactly about believers. Knowing the words of Scripture is different from having the knowledge of truth.  Believers only will have this knowledge.  When we read the verse “...who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timo 2:4), we can see the order. Salvation comes first and then comes the knowledge of truth.  We can find the same order in 1 Timo 4:3 also-“those who believe and know the truth”.

A person, not generated spiritually, though he would have read the Scripture many times, would never get the knowledge of truth. To understand this, I request Sam to read 2 Timo 3:7- “Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth”.  Only those who abide in CHRIST (means ‘not drawing back from HIM’) will be called His disciples, i.e., believers and only such persons will come to know truth that makes them free.  Read John 8:31, 32. So, finally let me say those who have the knowledge of truth as said in Heb 10:26 are believers and what is said in that verse is a warning to believers.

‘Sinning willfully’ does not mean ‘not accepting the gospel and rejecting Christ’.  It is very much getting entangled in sins unto death like the persons we see in 1 Corin 5 and 2 Cori 12:21. There is only one sacrifice available on this earth, that is what Christ had done on the cross. If a person who was once delivered by this sacrifice, fall in the same sin, then there is no more sacrifice greater than by what he was once delivered, his end will be much worse – “ For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning”(2 Peter 2:20)

Knowledge of Truth = Knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

These willful sinners ‘who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace’ are once sanctified by that same blood of covenant. Christ’s blood never sanctifies one outwardly, but inwardly i.e., a sanctified person is called a saved person.  The sanctification mentioned in 1 Cori 7:14 has entirely a different meaning.

It is mentioned as ‘adversaries’ in V27, not as single ‘adversary’.  Adversaries are unbelievers otherwise ‘sons of disobedience’ (Eph 5:6, 7). I tell repeatedly that if we believers fall into sins unto death and continue in tht sins willfully without any repentance, we will have to take part with the sons of disobedience in their end (fiery indignation).  Please go through Eph 5:6, 7 attentively.  

Verses like John 3:16  John 6:39,  Mat 13:24-30 do not have any relation the subject of this thread – ‘Warning to believers’

 

Mr. Sam, your relating the word ‘we’ in Heb 10:26 to the ‘we’ we read in Matt 7:22-23 is very much childish and answering to this will be my foolishness.  

 

Mr. Sam, finally one request, please explain what you have understood from reading Hebrews 10:30

 

 

 

                            

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 13 Jul 2012 9:28:00 AM Close

Dear 'beracah'

It may take a few days' time to reply your post dt.6 Jul 2012 07:57:51

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 21 Jul 2012 8:48:03 AM Close

I specifically mentioned that my posting is not meant for the people who doubt and oppose the ETERNITY OF SALVATION, then why you replied to me “Kristine”?

Is there any difference between tapioca and jackfruit?

Is any difference between you real name and pen name?

Is there any difference between pretend to be saved and really saved?

 

 

I wrote judas pretend to be saved, by his action he repudiated that pretention itself.

 

Epistle of Hebrew is addressed to Hebrew Christians some of them are like Judas these passages are warning to them.

 

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 23 Jul 2012 7:12:49 AM Close

‘beracah’ has made this statement: “Jesus Christ the Righteous One intercedes if anyone of the dear children does sin and the Savior speaks to the Father in our defense” referring to 1 John 2:1- “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One”. Here, my important question is what type of sin has been mentioned in this verse. Will Jesus intercede for those who turned willful sinners committing sins unto death just like the person we see in 1 Cori 5 and 2 Cori 12:21? If Jesus would have intercede for the sinner in 1 Cori 5, then it is absolutely not necessary for the fellow believers to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus, as per 1 Cori 5:5. A disciplinary action is must for the repentance of such a sinner.  Christ is faithful and just to forgive him his sins and to cleanse him from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). Why Paul should mourn for many who have sinned before and have not repented of the uncleanness, fornication, and lewdness which they have practiced (2 Cori 12:21) is question we have to ask for ourselves.

 

‘beracah’ has said “I am a born again child of God. My new birth was not of any human decision, I am born of God” quoting the verse “who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” – John 1:13. Mode of birth is different from the cause of birth. Transforming a person as child of God is the act of God, not that person can do it for himself. God had already made the plan of salvation through His Son Christ Jesus to generate anyone as his son or daughter. God has all the willingness to generate any person spiritually. Then, submitting oneself to God in Christ is the cause for one to get generated spiritually.But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name” - John 1:12.

 

‘beracah’ has said, quoting 1 Peter 1:3 that God the Father in his mercy gave him a new birth into a living hope.That is right and at the same time, it is necessary for one to hold on that hope ( or confidence) till the end to be a partaker of Christ (Heb 3:14)

 

I will not dispute that ‘beracah’ has been born again not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. (Peter 1:23).  I do not deny that the word of God (in itself) is living and enduring one and it is an un perishable seed. But the fact is one whi is born of such a seed (the Word) should hold on to that Word of Life (Phil 2:16). That was the advice given by Paul to the Philippians. If they would come short of it, then it would make Paul that he would be sad in the day of Christ that he had run in vain or labored in vain. 

Paul expresses the same concern for Galatian believers and says that he is afraid for them, lest he has labored for them in vain (4:11),because he saw them that they have suffered so many

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 23 Jul 2012 7:15:31 AM Close

things in vain—if indeed it was in vain (3:4)                                                        

Quoting 1 John 3:9, ‘beracah’ has said “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.”

 

For this, I am reproducing here what I have already written in this same thread (My post dt. 20 Jun 2012 4:36:29 AM)

 

While explaining 1 John 3:9, you have taken ‘cannot go on sinning ’ from  NIV. ‘cannot sin ‘ is in KJV. It seems when you prefer NIV, you are not comfortable with KJV. The wicked man (a terrible sinner) we see in 1 Corinthian went on sinning.  His act of sinning was not just accidental or it was not for once or twice, but he was having his father’s wife. You must notice that the sin, this born again who received the seed of God, is not so much as named among the Gentiles, such a heinous sin it was, then that wicked man (as called by Paul) continued (i.e., went on)  committing that sin.  John warns us that we should not become like Cain. In this same chapter 3, we can see in verse 15 that eternal life will cease abiding in a saved person whose character turns murderous. Hence I understand that 1 John 3:9 is of words of encouragement and warning as well.  With this understanding, it is comprehensive for me that Judas became a devil at a latter stage”  

 

beracah’s statement is this : “:The new birth the Lord gave me is undoable; it is irreversible; and New Birth is not repeatable. There is no scriptural teaching for being born again... and again … and again ….and again…..repeatedly…… for many times”

 

In the story of the prodigal son, we can find that the father says to his elder son “ for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found”. When we read the prodigal son ‘is alive again’, we understand that he was alive before.  Between these to lives, there was one death.  This son in his repentant state he got his ‘life’ again,  if he commit the same sins he will be again dead.

 

Quoting Phil 2:13, ‘beracah’ has says “My choosing to live a life worthy of the calling with which the Lord called me also is not something I do on my own. It is the Lord who works in me to will and to act according to his good purpose). The verse is: “For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure”

 

This verse is not a promise for an unbeliever to become a believer. This promise is what God will do in a believer’s life.  But for God, to fulfill the promise, what the believer should do on his part is also mentioned in verse 2:12.

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 23 Jul 2012 7:19:59 AM Close

beracah’ has made one comment: “ I also choose to believe the Words of the Lord more than the teachings of men like kristine on the eternal insecurity of salvation; which reminds me of the arguments of Existentialists who believe that “Existence precedes essence”

 

I am very much confident that what I am writing that I believe is absolutely Scriptural, whether ‘beracah’ heeds or not and I am least concerned about philosophies like ‘existentialism’ etc, which I am not aware of. When ‘beracah’ chooses to believe the Words of the Lord, I remind him that there is an obligation for him to hold on the Words (Phil 2:16).

 

While ‘beracah’ enjoys reading John 10:28-30, he must also observe what 1 Peter 5:6 says: “Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time”

 

“For me God’s testimony is greater than all the men’s testimony” – a nice statement from ‘beracah’ and it is essential that this witness reconciles with the testimony of his conscience (2 Cori 1:12):

 

For our boasting is this: the testimony of our conscience that we conducted ourselves in the world in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom but by the grace of God, and more abundantly toward you.

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 23 Jul 2012 9:03:38 AM Close

Jesus Christ’s intercession and forgiveness of sin of the Children of God is when he/she confess it.  If it is not confessed there is chastisement that is what we see in 1 Cor 5, but after that the person might have confessed that is why he had been re-instated.

 

2Co 2:6  This punishment which was inflicted by the majority is sufficient for such a man,

2Co 2:7  so that, on the contrary, you ought rather to forgive and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one be swallowed up with too much sorrow.

2Co 2:8  Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love to him.

2Co 2:9  For to this end I also wrote, that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things.

2Co 2:10  Now whom you forgive anything, I also forgive. For if indeed I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven that one for your sakes in the presence of Christ,

2Co 2:11  lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.

 

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Reply by : beracah   View Profile   Since : 23 Jul 2012 9:27:11 AM Close

kristine,

You believe in the exercising of free will by man to choose his eternal destiny. You also believe and argue for the eternal insecurity of salvation through Jesus Christ. Keeping your salvation or remaining saved is your own private responsibility.  Concerning Salvation you have a “man centric view” whereas me and those you oppose are convinced from the Scriptures of a “God centric” salvation. What the proponents of “eternal insecurity of salvation” say is opposed to the testimony of God Himself. When people spread errors concerning the God of the Bible; and since what they say is not true of the LORD God Almighty; they are talking about some other god and works of that other god. As I understand, this is the essence of what you have been doing through your postings on this message board.
 
kristine, the additions you made to the scriptural portions I quoted verbatim  are not in consonance to the scripture, and are blatant distortions suiting your imaginations, therefore, I dismiss your faulty writings altogether. You are doing violence to the scriptures by assigning it meanings you prefer.
 
If you are the one who keeps you saved and shields you by your own free will and power; and if you believe what you propagate; and if you are serious about what you say:
a.   Should you be engaging in these arguments misinterpreting even the Words of the Lord Jesus Christ himself?
b.   Should you not be devoting your entire energy and all your time for somehow safeguarding your salvation from losing?
c.    Should you not be spending your available opportunities for keeping your selves saved by your own actions by playing a key role in your salvation?
 
What are you intending to accomplish here and what are you doing here? If you don’t mind, please tell me:
1.   By doing how many sins (minimum number) will you lose your salvation?
2.   What is the present tally of your unresolved sins?
3.   Are you aware of all the sins you have committed while discussing here?
4.   How many you have added to the list of sins while arguing with contributors on this message Board?
5.   What is your status during the interregnum of committing sin and resolving it?
 
kristine, You came on your own for arguing and would it be wrong if someone considers you as a contentious person? Tell us one valid reason why anyone must take you seriously from what you say and how you behave? I feel your worrying (?) about the salvation of others (also of yours) is not sincere but hypocritical.
 
It is fine to be zealous provided the purpose is good (Gala 4:18). It is not good to have zeal without knowledge (Pro 19:2) and we shall not obscure God’s counsel without knowledge (Job 42:3). If it is possible with you, refrain from adding more sins to the tally of your unresolved sins with your postings here opposing the plain scriptural statements and the words of God the Father and His Son.
 
Response to your posting:-
1 John 2:1 – I dismiss your suggestion because your view is not supported by Scripture. It is your view and not binding on me.
 
John 1:13 – What is the mode of rebirth? What causes rebirth? Who causes rebirth? Was it self-regeneration for you? I was born again not by my will or any man’s will but by the will of God. So, what you wrote opposing this is not scriptural.
 
1 Peter 1:3 – While commenting on this verse, kristine contradicted what she/he wrote about John 1:13. Be consistent kristine.
 
1 John 3:9 – I believe what Bible says and not what kristine say. You prefer KJV rendering “cannot sin”. I suggest you to read 1 John 2:1 also from KJV. Could you still hold your arguments?
 
Regarding a believer sinning:
1JN 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
 
Confession of sins: Who among the believers have confessed all their sins they have committed in the eyes of God? The most careful believer confesses only his known sins. There are sins of omissions unknown to believers. The Lord intercedes and speaks to the Father in the defense of His children. 1 Jon 2:1
 
But there are believers who hate born again believers in other Christian denominations or those that hold different viewpoints without any guilty feeling. See the case of kristine herself / himself!!!
 
The scripture doesn’t teach of repeated new births again and again and again. The prodigal son was born again on his repentance and return. It was not his “born again and again”; second or third new birth.
 
Phil 2:13 is not a promise but a statement of what the LORD would do. The Lord is not limited by my actions or inactions. I could not frustrate or defeat any of the purposes of the Sovereign God.
 
I enjoy reading John 10:28-30 because they are the words of my Shepherd. It is for His sheep like me. I belong to the Lord and am one of His sheep. I value what he said and believe it.
 
EPH 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding.
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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 23 Jul 2012 9:38:40 AM Close

Sam, 

In the thread wherein you have said “ my posting is not.....”, you have addressed me first.  So, I thought it is my moral responsibility to answer you. Moreover, this is a general forum in which I am an active member and I am entitled to register my views.  If you say that I should not have addressed my posting to you in your name, I apologies for it. But, you have made the latest post specifically addressing to me and have given two points, 1) about Judas, 2) to whom the Hebrews epistle has been written. Anyway, I am not answering you here and making a separate post generally. You too can answer to my post in your interest otherwise skip off.   

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 23 Jul 2012 9:46:25 AM Close

Judas pretended to be saved by his action he repudiated that pretention” – This is one eternal security advocate’s statement.  Scripture says nowhere that Judas pretended as saved. Scripture says clearly he was a disciple of Christ, not a fake disciple. Christ only selected him as an apostle in His second degree selection (i.e., as a first level selection, from many disciples Jesus called out only a specific number of disciples according to His  will and in the second level selection, from among those selected disciples, Christ clearly chose only twelve disciples as apostles to carry out God’s Great Commission and Judas was one among them.  God will not choose an unsaved person to carry out His Great Command. So, Judas was evidently a saved person. 

“Epistle of Hebrew is addressed to Hebrew Christians some of them are like Judas these passages are warning to them” – This is a wrong statement by an eternal security proponent.   Warnings in the Hebrews epistle is very much to the believers themselves. Read 10:30, 31

“ For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God”

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 23 Jul 2012 12:28:22 PM Close

 

‘beracah’,

 

What is this your question:- “what are you doing here?” Are you driving me out from this forum, mind your words. When I read your comment “When people spread errors concerning the God ........other god. As I understand, this is the essence of what you have been doing through your postings on this message board”, I refer to Galtians 6:17, there were some fools in Galatia too who questioned about Paul’s Christian faith.  Don’t think that you ‘Predesties’ only are the children of God.

 

Your saying “I dismiss your faulty writings altogether” is an escapism. If you say that I am adding to Scripture and blatantly distorting Scripture, you should not dismiss my writings. If claim you stand for Truth, you must refute my writings with reasons. You should not have asked the silly question: “a.   Should you be engaging in these arguments misinterpreting even the Words of the Lord Jesus Christ himself?” when you are not ready to refute my writings. You need not have any concern, asking another two silly question b & C, for my keeping faith and salvation.  That is between me and Christ.

 

You have asked for the data of my personal life.  That is ridiculous.  Don’t take stock of others personal matters.  I am explaining my belief on the Scriptural grounds.  Face it or leave it. I am accountable only before God.  I think in your ‘Scripture’ only blessings are there and no warnings.

 

What do you mean by saying “You came on your own for arguing and would it be wrong if someone considers you as a contentious person?” Do you say that I have to take permission from the ‘predesties’ for ‘arguing’ (my exposition is an argument for you). You can call me contentious person, because I know my words are not ear tickling, they are not lulling your souls.  You can even say that I am beside myself and I am driven mad (Acts 26:24)

 

The insincere and hypocritical feeling of my worrying about the salvation of anyone is, in fact, not that of mine , but it is of the writer of Hebrews epistle - “Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward,  how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation” – Hebrew 2:2, 3.). But the repentance caused a rebirth (‘is alive again’-Lk 15:32).  

 

Your Response to my posting:-

 

1 John 2:1 – I dismiss your suggestion because your view is not supported by Scripture. It is your view and not binding on me.

 

My comment:

What you are dismissing is not that of mine, but of Paul and you can dismiss unless you turn the persons like we see in 1 Cori 5 & 2 Cori 12:21.

 

Your response - John 1:13 – What is the mode of rebirth? What causes rebirth? Who causes rebirth? Was it self-regeneration for you? I was born again not by my will or any man’s will but by the will of God. So, what you wrote opposing this is not scriptural.

 

My comment: You re read my explanation attentively.  It is very much clear. I am apposing not Scripture, but the ‘predestination’ teaching you are promoting which is anti scriptural.

 

1 Peter 1:3 – While commenting on this verse, kristine contradicted what she/he wrote about John 1:13. Be consistent kristine.

 

My comment: Expose my contradiction, then I will tell you what you should learn.

                                                                             

1 John 3:9 – I believe what Bible says and not what kristine say. You prefer KJV rendering “cannot sin”. I suggest you to read 1 John 2:1 also from KJV. Could you still hold your arguments?

 

My comments: The very first paragraph in my today’s post (23 Jul 2012 07:12:49) is the answer for 1 John 2:1

 

‘beracah’, for your explanations of ‘Regarding a believer sinning’ ‘Confession of sins’, I may write separately, because it will tend to take this thread to different topic.

 

Your comment: But there are believers who hate born again believers in other Christian denominations or those that hold different viewpoints without any guilty feeling. See the case of kristine herself / himself!!!

 

My comment: I don’t know how do you accept me as a believer, when you say “ When people spread errors concerning the God of the Bible; and since what they say is not true of the LORD God Almighty; they are talking about some other god and works of that other god”. According to your statement, I must be a devil’s man, not a believer, as I am speaking for other go. how do you say that I am hating other born again believers?

 

Your statement: The scripture doesn’t teach of repeated new births again and again and again. The prodigal son was born again on his repentance and return. It was not his “born again and again”; second or third new birth.

 

My comment:  When you read that the father told to his elder son “for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found” , Mr.’beracah’, tell me when was that son dead. Was it before his leaving his father’s house or after leaving? Before leaving his father’s house, was he not a spiritual son? After his leaving, did not become spiritually dead? Or do you say he died physically.  A spiritual person was dead loosing the spirituality in him,(Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?- Gal 3:3

 

Phil 2:13 is not a promise but a statement of what the LORD would do. The Lord is not limited by my actions or inactions. I could not frustrate or defeat any of the purposes of the Sovereign God.

 

My comment: OK, let it be a statement, but Verse 12 clearly says that we must be submissive to God in His work). That is the point.

 

I enjoy reading John 10:28-30 because they are the words of my Shepherd. It is for His sheep like me. I belong to the Lord and am one of His sheep. I value what he said and believe it.

 

My comment: I don’t deny what you have said. But why are you not speaking anything about 1 Peter 5:6?

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 23 Jul 2012 1:00:23 PM Close

In my above post, at the end of the paragraph that starts “The insincere and hypocritical.....” there is a sentence " But the repentance caused a rebirth ('is alive again-Lk 15:32). Please, read this sentence to be at the end of the para that end with the blue letters sentence. I am not able to make appropriate correction, it may be due to some technical snag. Inconvenience caused is regretted.

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Reply by : beracah   View Profile   Since : 24 Jul 2012 6:40:35 AM Close

kristine,

Again let me ask you – What are you doing here? Don’t get easily piqued. You put your finger on the right verse and asked – But why are you not speaking anything about 1 Peter 5:6”?– I shall quote from 1 Peter 5:5 onwards and it reads thus:
 
1 Peter 5: 5 - 7
Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because,
 
 "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."
 
Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time.  Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.
 
Well, kristine, do not oppose God. When He says that it is He who chose people to be adopted as His children, do not argue with Him to prove Him wrong. When He reveals His purposes and His will in predestining, submit to Him without questioning. When He says about His elect that He chose them and predestined them in love, do not oppose Him, but believe Him and say: Amen. When the Lord says “I will give them Eternal Life and they will not perish” about His sheep, do not get unsettled or become argumentative but humble yourself under God’s mighty hand.
 
I sense few things offensive in your postings.
1.   You advocate “many re-births”. This is something similar to the cycle of “birth-death-rebirth” taught by Hindus who believe in reincarnation into many lives. Hindus believe that through many births and rebirths the soul ultimately attains moksha – salvation – through merger with the Brahman. Your idea of salvation is very similar to the Hindu moksha rooted in Karma yoga. The series of re-births and re-deaths you talk about is in the same life. This is unchristian and unscriptural.  BTW, Are you the re-incarnation of the old “sathyasnehi”?
 
2.   You are against predestination. Since it is God who predestines, your opposition is not against men but against God himself. You better settle it with God. Read Ephesians 1:3-10.
 
3.   You are also opposed to God the Father and His Son for giving Eternal life to His sheep and for declaring to your dismay that they shall never perish. John 10:28-29
 
What do you expect the readers to consider you as? You are here with a teaching against God and His Word. The only person so far agreeing with you is an SDA who considers the writings of Ellen G White as of equal validity as the inspired Scriptures themselves. The salvation (moksha) you present is not from the God of Bible but from some other god. All true children of God must resist your enticing to serve other gods.
 
You attempt to appear to be concerned about the salvation of others. I consider you as someone propagating error concerning Salvation through Jesus Christ. You are presenting a “do-it-yourself” kind of salvation. When your conduct here was brought to focus compelling you to review it, you shot back describing them as silly!!  Then you said: That is between me and Christ”. This is real escapism. What else can you do?
 
I admonish you to go back and review your performance here. What are you doing here? If you believe what you say, stop contradicting the LORD. The case of every believer is between them and God. How do you matter in it??
 
You said something about the sinner in 1 Cori 5. If someone is caught in a sin, what he needs is restoration and not re-birth. (cf Gal 6:1) What does the Bible say about the immoral man in 1 Cori 5? What the Church must do with him?
a.   Put him out of fellowship
b.   Handover the immoral sinner to Satan for the destruction of his sinful nature.
c.    Do all these, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
d.   Does Paul say anything about the destruction of the spirit of the immoral sinner? Has Paul said anything about another re-birth for the sinner in 1 Cori 5? Where in the Bible repetition of re-births are mentioned for believers fallen in to sin?
 
Your quote from Gala 3:3 was really impressive!! The whole effort of Paul in the letter to Galatians was to disprove those insisting on works for salvation; who falsely teach that faith alone is not adequate for salvation but works are also necessary. Paul didn’t give in to such false teachers for a moment, so that the truth of gospel might remain with the believers. Gala 2:5 Paul describes the detractors as “false brothers”.
 
Now read Galatians 3: 1-5
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
 
What was begun with the Spirit must be attained by the Spirit and not by human effort as you, kristine, try to propagate here. You cannot buy God’s gift with your efforts, however great they be. Please understand that God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. Rom 11:29 God paid for my salvation and it was a full payment. I cannot merit it and make God obliged to give me eternal life. It is God’s mercy to the disobedient; and in order that He may show mercy to all, God has bound all men over to disobedience. Romans 11:32
 
Again, are you the re-incarnation of the old “sathyasnehi”?
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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 24 Jul 2012 9:23:48 AM Close

Dear Bro. beracah,

You have clearly pointed out the fallacy in the arguments of the proponents of ‘Eternal Insecurity.’ It seems some participants have been ‘commissioned’ to propagate falsehood and oppose truth. Foul mouth and Hatred are their weapons. They vitiate the noble objectives of this forum even by dubious means such as twisting the word of God, imputing false and imaginary motives to others’ posts, and employing expletives to scare away respectable contributors.

These “Legal Believers” are determined to enter heaven by force, as they put a ‘claim’ to Eternal life by virtue of the 5-6 sentences that they are said to have uttered. According to them, uttering these sentences has gained them legal right to heaven on the basis of Rom 10/9&10. They are engaged in a constant legal battle against Lord Jesus because they “claim” Eternal life not as a “GIFT’ but as a legal “RIGHT”, a right arising from their righteous (?) actions such as their partial confession of sins and superficial acceptance of Jesus as savior etc. Their claim to salvation and its security is founded on the merit of their works and therefore, they can’t trust in eternal security because they know that their works do not remain eternally righteous. “Belief” according to them is nothing more than ‘Non-denial’ of Jesus as the Savior, which in itself, according to the legal believers is a human effort sans Grace from God. They can’t accept the Biblical truth of ‘Predestination’ because it negates their theory of “Salvation and Security on human merit”

P.A.Paulose 

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Reply by : beracah   View Profile   Since : 24 Jul 2012 10:11:50 AM Close

Dear Bro. Paulose,

These distorters of God’s truth are like the Hindus following “karma” philosophy. They are like the “circumcision group” during Paul’s time and are out to ruin God’s household by teaching things they ought not to teach. They venture to become saviors of themselves and claim to keep the salvation by their private effort. They show contempt for the riches of God’s kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads them toward repentance.
 
 When God’s children are shielded by God’s power; these men claim that they keep themselves saved by their own power.
 
They deny the intercessory ministry of our Lord before the Father. They also do not believe that the Lord is able to save completely those who come to God through him. Heb 7:25
 
P T Varghese
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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 25 Jul 2012 5:28:10 AM Close

Mr.Varghese, 

You have said that persons of my type show contempt for the riches of God’s kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads them toward repentance.

 

Have you understood what the Scripture says exactly about the nature of God? Read :

 

For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”says the Lord.  And again, The Lord will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God – Hebrews 10:30, 31.

 

Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. For our God is a consuming fire Hebrews -  12:28, 29

 

Take heed to yourselves, lest you forget the covenant of the Lord your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of anything which the Lord your God has forbidden you. For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God – Deuteronomy 4:23, 24.

 

 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?   NowIf the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?” – 1 Peter 4:17, 18

 

Varghese read the following verse to find out how Christ will intercede:                 

“He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’ But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it.  And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.– Luke 13:6-9

You may wait to read my reply for your previous post.

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Reply by : svarg   View Profile   Since : 25 Jul 2012 3:22:02 PM Close

This "Christine" doesn't know anything in Bible. She is another Bobby Chacko. She will pick verses from the Bible and twist it's meaning and present it here.  She seems to argue.

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 26 Jul 2012 6:54:58 AM Close

'svarg'

It seems you know manythings in the Scripture much better than me.  You can see that I have quoted some verses in my last post. I have not given any explanations (or 'twisted interpretations' as you wish to say).  Please, let me know what importance you see in those verses. What have you understood from those verse? Can you please explain? 

 

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 26 Jul 2012 10:31:09 AM Close

‘beracah’,

Here I am doing what I have to do as lead by the Spirit. You have unduly made use of 1 Peter 5:5-7, just for advising me to adopt unscriptural ‘predestination’ teaching instead of looking into what exactly the verses say.  Because, 1 Peter 5:6 is very much against your Eternal security teaching. Verse 6 says: “Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time”.  There are two important things what we have to observe, 1) Keeping ourselves in the mighty hands of God, 2) being lifted up in due time.

 

1)  ‘Keeping ourselves under the might hands of God’ is what we have to do. If we develop pride of any kind whether it is spiritual or material, that will take us away from the hands of God. No outside elements can take us from the hands of God (Roman 8:38, 39; John 10:28), whereas because of our own pride and other sins we are vulnerable to being out of God’s mighty hand.

 

2)’ Being lifted up’ otherwise ‘being exalted’ is the next crucial question. If one is not submissively in the hands of God, he will not be exalted in due time. That is the bottom line message we receive from the Holy Spirit. Due you think that this ‘exalting’ is a material prosperity to be achieved? Never. ‘Due time’ here means the appointed of God’s second coming. If you are out of the hands of God and away from Him (like the prodigal son), there comes a roaring line in between you and God to devour you (V 8). Then, you would not be exalted to God’s kindom in due time.

 

Instead of accepting this true essence of the Scripture, ‘beracah’ you are misusing the verse for the sake of your ‘predestination’ teaching. That is awkward. In line with your argument, let me ask a question. If I do not accept the predestination teaching as commanded by God as you interpret, then it is my rebellion against God, what will I loose? Will not I be exalted in due time?  (It is due season in Galatian 6:9)

 

From your sensing a few things offensive in my postings, I am making some comments:

 

Your statement:

      You advocate “many re-births”. This is something similar to the cycle of “birth-death-rebirth” taught by Hindus..... This is unchristian and unscriptural.”

 

 My response:  I know very well what the Scripture says: “And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment (Heb 9:27)”.  The death, spoken of here is physical which is only once.  The re-births and deaths which Hindus believe are also pertain to physical.  But I am speaking purely about spiritual birth and death. That too I am explaining citing the illustration from the scripture, the story of the prodigal son. ‘beracah’, you have to keenly observe what Luke 15:32 says: “...for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found”  Did you notice the words ‘alive again’? What have you understood reading this? Let me tell you, it means that the son was alive before also. A spiritual person who is alive once can become dead spiritually like the prodigal son and become alive again, if repents.

 

Your statement: When your conduct here was brought to focus compelling you to review it, you shot back describing them as silly!!  Then you said: “That is between me and Christ”. This is real escapism. What else can you do?

 

I admonish you to go back and review your performance here. What are you doing here? If you believe what you say, stop contradicting the LORD. The case of every believer is between them and God. How do you matter in it??

 

My response: First of all, I don’t understand how could be my conduct brought to focus here.  Who did find out my conduct and brought to focus here.  Only you have asked for it unmannerly. Read how you have started your question in your post dt. 23 Jul 2012 09:27:11: “If you don’t mind, please...” You are very much aware that the questions you would be asking would not be worth answering.    

You have said that the case of every believer is between them and God.  How did I matter in it?. ‘beracah, you must use some reasoning in your question. I have never questioned the salvation of any individual by name.  I have not asked you or any one to produce your sin data so that I could estimate the status of salvation of any individual. What I am doing here is I bring forth the warning passages from the Scripture, in common for all. If you consider what I am writing is true, you will test your self before Christ in the light of my writing for your goodness that is between you and Christ.  It applies to me and to every one. There is no escapism on my side.

 

If at all you ask for an answer to your ill-mannered question, my answer will be what Paul said in 1 Cori 9:27.

 

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 26 Jul 2012 10:33:36 AM Close

With regard to the case of the sinner in 1 Cori 5, you have asked a few questions:

“Does Paul say anything about the destruction of the spirit of the immoral sinner?”

“Has Paul said anything about another re-birth for the sinner in 1 Cori 5?” “Where in the Bible repetition of re-births are mentioned for believers fallen in to sin?”

 

Paul did not say about the destruction of the spirit, but about supposed saving of it. Paul orders the fellow believers to take disciplinary action against the sinner to see that he will repent.  His repentance only will bring salvation to him. Whether he will repent or not, is in that sinners hand only. That is why his salvation is mentioned in an ambiguous way. Paul said ‘his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. The salvation here spoken of is eternal salvation (saving on the day of the Lord)

 

First of all, we the conditional security adherent do not say that there is salvation, loosing salvation, and gaining it, again loosing it, again gaining it and so on. When we say about ‘loosing the salvation’, it is about ‘eternal salvation’ only. Salvation on the day of the Lord (Hebrews 9:28)

 

‘Being born in Christ’ means ‘being chosen for salvation’.  Being diligent to make sure the choosing (call & election – 2 Peter 1:10) is our responsibility. Otherwise, if allow sin to rule over us, death is sure (James 1:15).  It is a spiritual death. Loss of Salvation.    

 

Your statement reads: “Your quote from Gala 3:3 was really impressive!! The whole effort of Paul in the letter to Galatians was to disprove those insisting on works for salvation” First, we never speak anything like ‘work salvation’. Better, you may please explain what this ‘work salvation’ is.

 

‘beracah’, I request you to pay a close attention to Galatian 3:1-4.  What you have to basically understand is that the Galatian departed Truth.  This is what we are pointing out. Instead of standing on their faith in Christ, they departed Christ and went away from Truth.  The sin they committed was they obeyed the law of works. These works are like that of circumcision etc, which Christ had already fulfilled on the cross.  A Hindu man, after once saved in Christ, but falls into the rituals of his old belief, he will be no more a Christian. This is what exactly happened in Galatia.

 

Your another statement is:” What was begun with the Spirit must be attained by the Spirit and not by human effort”.  You have derived this idea from you adoption of the version ‘New International Version (©1984)which is diametrically apposite to “Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Your version and interpretation completely dilutes the warning given by Paul.  Paul says that Galatians who started their Christian life spiritually with faith, now last their faith, last their spirituality and are about to receive an end in flesh, i.e, they are at the risk of loosing their eternal life.  Please read the following verses very much carefully:

 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith” - Gala 6:7-10.

 

‘beracah’, ‘being made perfect by the flesh’ means ‘not trying to receive eternal life by human effort’ as you said, but it means ‘receiving corruption(destruction, in other terms loosing eternal life).  Please read the above verses repeatedly and explain your understanding.

 

Regarding Ephesians 1:3-10, and John 10:28, 29, I will write latter.

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Reply by : beracah   View Profile   Since : 27 Jul 2012 6:36:08 AM Close

kristine,

The manner in which you approach the Bible and attempt to derive meanings is flagrantly flawed. The methodology you use for Biblical interpretation is neither cohesive nor comprehensive. Your approach lacks sensibility and consistency as I read through your writings. Classical examples are your treatment of 1 Peter 5:6, Galatians 3:1-4, 1 Cori 5 and the parable of Prodigal son. Your obsession for making God’s free gift of salvation “conditional” is driving you to all these extremes.
 
Ultimately, your warfare is not with anyone of us: it is with God himself. You are making God a liar and publicized on this Forum a different “salvation” through your arguments by not taking God’s promises seriously. The utterances  of kristine evidences that he don’t believe in the mercy, faithfulness and truthfulness of God. While reading his postings I am reminded of Paul’s statement in Romans 3:3-4
 
“What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:
"So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."
 
I leave this to the consideration of more knowledgeable and learned brethren for handling.
 
kristine attempts to say that God’s judgment of believers results in loss of salvation / eternal life. See the two below reference on the Lord’s judgment of his people and the purpose of that judgment:
 
1 Cori 11:32
When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.
 
Heb 10:30
For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
 
With glee kristine refutes plain affirmative statements of God the Father and His Son. kristine’s idea of Eternal Life and Salvation through Jesus Christ are very strange and far removed being Scriptural! He is unable to believe that believers are already saved and have eternal life now.
 
Holy Spirit inspired Apostle John and he states his purpose of writing his letter that: 
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1John 5:13
 
Titus 3:4-8
 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.
 
Eph 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
 
I believe and trust God the Father and His Son. When the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he SAVED me, not because of righteous things I have done but because of his mercy. I who believe in the name of the Son of God do have ETERNAL LIFE. I am God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works. It is not the doing of good works that secures my salvation but it is the salvation that enables me to do good works and those works were prepared in advance by God himself.
 
What I say applies to children of God and them only; who have Eternal life, who are saved; who through faith are shielded by God's power.
 
Finally, the behavior of Kristine and his writings indicates to me that she/he is the old “sathyasnehi”. I asked kristine twice: “are you the re-incarnation of the old “sathyasnehi”?; but kristine has bypassed it without responding. I am at a loss to understand the reason why this reappearance under a new name and why kristine hesitates to respond. This is not innocence or uprightness.
 
PTV
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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 27 Jul 2012 8:56:56 AM Close

2Ti 1:7 to 10 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

       Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

P.A.Paulose  

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 27 Jul 2012 10:22:17 AM Close

Do not be deceived

(Warnings to believers only)

 

And Jesus answered and said to them: Take heed that no one deceives you. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.But he who endures to the end shall be saved-Matt 24:4, 12, 13

 

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked;for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life-Gala 6:7,8

 

Do not be deceived: “Evil company corrupts good habits.” Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame 1 Cori 15:33, 34 

“But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren” – James 1:14-16

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived - 1 Cori 6:9

“But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ- 2 Cori 11:3

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain-1 Cori 15:1,2

“Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure” – 2 Peter 1:10

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Reply by : beracah   View Profile   Since : 27 Jul 2012 11:17:22 AM Close

On 23 Jul 2012 9:27:11 AM I asked kristine the following: 

What are you intending to accomplish here and what are you doing here? If you don’t mind, please tell me:
 
1.By doing how many sins (minimum number) will you lose your salvation?
2.What is the present tally of your unresolved sins?
3.Are you aware of all the sins you have committed while discussing here?
4.How many you have added to the list of sins while arguing with contributors on this message Board?
5.What is your status during the interregnum of committing sin and resolving it?
 
kristine, You came on your own for arguing and would it be wrong if someone considers you as a contentious person? Tell us one valid reason why anyone must take you seriously from what you say and how you behave? I feel your worrying (?) about the salvation of others (also of yours) is not sincere but hypocritical.
 
You had no answer for this and couldn’t respond. Again I asked you the following on:24 Jul 2012 6:40:35
 
You attempt to appear to be concerned about the salvation of others. I consider you as someone propagating error concerning Salvation through Jesus Christ. You are presenting a “do-it-yourself” kind of salvation. When your conduct here was brought to focus compelling you to review it, you shot back describing them as silly!! Then you said: “That is between me and Christ”. This is real escapism. What else can you do?
 
I admonish you to go back and review your performance here. What are you doing here? If you believe what you say, stop contradicting the LORD. The case of every believer is between them and God. How do you matter in it??
 
Below given is your reply for the above on:26 Jul 2012 10:31:09 AM
 
Quote:
Your statement: When your conduct here was brought to focus compelling you to review it, you shot back describing them as silly!! Then you said: “That is between me and Christ”. This is real escapism. What else can you do?
 
I admonish you to go back and review your performance here. What are you doing here? If you believe what you say, stop contradicting the LORD. The case of every believer is between them and God. How do you matter in it??
 
My response: First of all, I don’t understand how could be my conduct brought to focus here. Who did find out my conduct and brought to focus here. Only you have asked for it unmannerly. Read how you have started your question in your post dt. 23 Jul 2012 09:27:11: “If you don’t mind, please...” You are very much aware that the questions you would be asking would not be worth answering. End quote
 
kristine, you propagate CS. When asked to review and testify the current status of your own salvation, instead of gladly utilizing the opportunity, you made the above posting. You became nervous to face this question emanating from your own CS teaching and mumbled that these questions are not worth answering. If you don’t have an answer, admit it because it is about your salvation. I again ask you:
 
What is the present status of your salvation?
1.    By doing how many sins (minimum number) will you lose your salvation?
2.   What is the present tally of your unresolved sins?
3.   Are you aware of all the sins you have committed?
4.   How many you have added to the list of sins while arguing with contributors on this message Board?
5.  What is your status during the interregnum of committing sin and resolving it?
 
Your failure to truthfully respond to the observation on your re-entry as “kristine” (from the old “sathyasnehi”) testifies that you don’t walk your talk; that you have no respect for godly behavior.
 
Titus 1:10 - 11
For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—
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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 28 Jul 2012 4:32:52 AM Close

 Tit 3:9  But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Tit 3:10  A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Tit 3:11  Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

 

P.A.Paulose 

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 28 Jul 2012 5:02:54 AM Close

Hei, beracah,

You and your folk can never silence me on this forum or anywhere. Death alone can stop me.  As long as the Spirit permits me, I will go on writing here, provided the web masters make any hindrance.

 

You people are striving hard to investigate about me. What if I am sathyasnehi or not? How does it matter to you?  It may be or may not be, that is purely my personal thing. I will never concern if ‘gifyku’ is ‘Tom Johns’ or not, but what he writes only matters.

 

In 2 Cori 12:2, Paul speaks of a person whom he knew.  Paul does not say it is he himself.  Many in our day say it must be Paul himself while the others think it must be another person. The mystery still exists and let it exist. Stop investigations and come for fair discussions.

 

I will never leave you.  I will come back to you leisurely to answer your questions

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Reply by : beracah   View Profile   Since : 28 Jul 2012 6:26:36 AM Close

It matters kristine. Who would pay attention to a lecture on morality and chastity by a streetwalker? 

You are not truthful in this innocuous matter of properly behaving with godly character on a discussion board. What do you mean when you say “I will never leave you”. Don’t be childish and do not harden your heart and lose sensitivity. Take stock of your sins and deal with them.
 
I advise you to prayerfully review your behavior and learn godliness. CS adherents of today and CG (Circumcision Group) of yesterday are all mistaken people, mere talkers and deceivers. You have proved it here.  
 
Let me repeat:
Your failure to truthfully respond to the observation on your re-entry as “kristine” (from the old “sathyasnehi”) testifies that you don’t walk your talk; that you have no respect for godly behavior.
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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 31 Jul 2012 6:21:37 AM Close

‘beracah’, 

For your calling me a streetwalker, I have to say you are right that I have to walk on the street to meet common people to extend my love which I have received from CHRIST. If you have any other intention in calling me so, please tell me what it is.

 

‘beracah’, you have to take a lesson from Mr.maneater whose another name is Paulose who has a ‘godly’ character of eating human flesh.  It seems he is your close disciple. He is very quick to call any one as a ‘guinea pig’, ‘stupid’ ‘fool’ etc., I don’t know what ‘godly’ character you are manifesting when you call me a ‘streetwalker’.  Are you running after streetwalkers always? Your rage to silencing me only caused me write to ‘I will never leave you’. i.e., I say I will never go back from this forum because of your intimidation and you will not be left out by me without receiving answers to your comments/queries whatsoever it may be.  ‘Taking stock of one’s sins and dealing with them’ is everyone’s duty, as true Christian. That is why there are warning passages in the Scripture. Your Calvinism does not permit you to understand this vital truth of the Scripture.  

 

Can you explain what you have said “CS adherents are mere talkers and deceivers. You have proved it here”?  

 

For your repeated comment on ‘sathyasnehi’ issue, let me also repeat my answer:

 

You people are striving hard to investigate about me. What if I am sathyasnehi or not? How does it matter to you?  It may be or may not be, that is purely my personal thing. I will never concern if ‘gifyku’ is ‘Tom Johns’ or not, but what he writes only matters.

 

In 2 Cori 12:2, Paul speaks of a person whom he knew.  Paul does not say it is he himself.  Many in our day say it must be Paul himself while the others think it must be another person. The mystery still exists and let it exist. Stop investigations and come for fair discussions

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Reply by : beracah   View Profile   Since : 31 Jul 2012 7:37:53 AM Close

kristine, 

What is the present status of your salvation?

1.    By doing how many sins (minimum number) will you lose your salvation?

2.   What is the present tally of your unresolved sins?

3.   Are you aware of all the sins you have committed?

4.   How many you have added to the list of sins while arguing with contributors on this message Board?

5.  What is your status during the interregnum of committing sin and resolving it?

 

kristine willfully avoided (continues to avoid) to truthfully respond to the observation repeatedly made on her/his re-entry into the Forum as “kristine” from the old “sathyasnehi”. It also testifies and conclusively proves that she / he don’t practice what she / he preaches; that she / he doesn’t have any respect or regard for godly behavior. She / he is a mere talker and a conceited vain arguer.

 

PTV

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 31 Jul 2012 8:02:35 AM Close

This ‘beracah’ wants to domain over my faith (2 Cori 1:24). I know what the verse Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure” (2 Peter 1:10) tells me and ‘beracah’ need not be a mediator between me and God in Christ. Regarding ‘sathyasnehi’ issue, a discerning person will understand what I have written.

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 11 Aug 2012 5:43:27 AM Close

Tom Johns, 

When I see that you don’t want to respond my comment in the thread ‘Has God destined anyone for hell?’ I think you will take some interest to answer here in this thread to my posts dt.15 May 2012 09:50:04 & 15 May 2012 09:51:49. You too have said in your posts dt.16 May 2012 20:46:22 & 27 May 2012 17:55:32 that you would respond.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Aug 2012 12:56:58 PM Close

Dear 'kristine,'

It is strange that you demand responding by others on what you ask, at the same time refuse to answer what was asked of you.  That is a double standard, which is seen in many SDA's who came to this Forum, including Bobby Chacko.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 13 Aug 2012 11:19:46 AM Close

Dear Readers,

This is for your information that I am not a SDA, but a Trinitarian Christian. It is easy to you to understand from my above post that I have not demanded Mr. Tom to respond me for my posts addressed to him.  It is only my expectation to read his reply, because he has written twice (once addressing to me personally and the next addressing to the readers in general) that he would respond. George is acting a mouth piece to Tom. Whether Tom is interested to answer me or not, I will write elaborately, at my free time the questions I have asked already and why Tom could not answer them.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 13 Aug 2012 3:00:39 PM Close

 

Dear 'kristine,'

You are demanding that Tom Johns should respond to your postings.  When a person consider your demand, then it will become clear that you do not hold the 'Doctrine of Freewill' of man, though you write that you do.  According to the followers of James Arminius, or those who hold the Arminian teaching of the freewill of man, also teach that freewill is the ability of a person to change his/her mind after deciding to do something.  You are adamant that Tom Johns has not that prerogative of what you call as 'freewill.'  By your act you are demonstrating that you do not hold your doctrine of freewill of man.  What a contradiction!

Your contradiction is not surprising to me, because you are a Platonic #2 woman.  A Platonic #2 woman is a woman with opinions without any reasoning for it.

You wrote that you are a "Trinitarian Christian."  That is what SDA claims.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 14 Aug 2012 8:27:34 AM Close

This fellow George does not have even a minimum IQ.  The response what Mr. Tom posted on 16 May 2012 20:46:22 was only for some comments I made on his writings. That is what everyone does normally and it is not out of compulsion. On 27 May 2012 17:55:32, Tom wrote almost the same thing, but addressing to the readers in general.  No one demanded Tom. On 27 Jun 2012 09:44:54, I just reminded Tom what he has said on 16th May. If Tom would have said that he did not have the interest to write, what will have I say? Nothing.  What I wrote on 27th was not a demand, only my consideration; this is what even Tom has accepted in his post dated 1 Jul 2012 11:25:35 and he thanked me for that. Finally, in my post dated 4 Jul 2012 09:29:17, I left it for Tom’s convenience to answer me. There was no demand from me.

Readers, now in the latest post dt.11 Aug 2012 05:43:27, there has been no demanding from me, but only my expectation to receive reply from him only because of his responses in previous post, that too, only since he has re-entered in the forum as a regular participant.  I have written all this not to get recognition from the George, but for the clear understanding of you, the readers. I am neglecting this fellow George, if he writes any thing more on this issue.

 

Since Mr. Tom has become the object of this issue raised by George, Tom may share his view, only if he is willing.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 14 Aug 2012 2:28:28 PM Close

Dear 'kristine,'

The issue is that you do not believe in the freewill of man, but try to propagate it.  If you believe in the freewill of man, then you would not have made demands from your expectation.  It also shows that you have a double standard of not replying logically to others when opportunity knocks at the door.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : kristine   View Profile   Since : 16 Aug 2012 6:07:09 AM Close

Demanding comes out of authority, but expectation comes out of hope.

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