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Keralabrethren.net: Sisters' Forum: 1timothy 2: 11

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# 00029 :  1timothy 2: 11
Woman should keep silens... what woman should do? What the Greek text saying?...
Post by : jo  View Profile    since : 28 Oct 2002


Reply by : tinu   View Profile   Since : 28 Oct 2002 6:54:14 AM Close
they have 5 onams

vannonam
erunnonam
kettonam
thinnonam &
pockonam

athu pore, jo?

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Reply by : joel   View Profile   Since : 28 Oct 2002 6:58:36 AM Close
there is one more 'onam' to celebrate, that is 'Ittonam' ie. 'sosthrakazcha'
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Reply by : thomas   View Profile   Since : 28 Oct 2002 7:05:32 AM Close
woman can praise God in silence + they can join in the worship by reading the psalms portions + singing, jointly with the brethren
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Reply by : johny   View Profile   Since : 1 Dec 2002 4:39:36 AM Close
I. JESUS ATTITUDE TOWARDS WOMAN

Before looking at the passage in detail, we need to consider Jesus’ attitude towards
woman. It must be recognized that the status of woman in Judaism at the time was
not much more than a material possession ( Ex 20 : 17 ) a wife differed from a
material possession in that she could not be sold. The jews were also bound by
many of the oral laws in the Talmud in their attitude to woman. For instance, the
rabbis were encouraged not to teach woman or even to speak to them. If they had to
speak to a woman then they used as few words as possible.
Jesus attitude towards woman was radically different to the other religious leader of
His day. He accepted woman disciples, woman traveled with him and ministered to
his needs ( Mk 15: 41 ). He revealed that he was the Christ to woman ( John 4: 26 ),
He included woman in the parables. There were woman present at his crucifixion,
and they were the first to witness his resurrection ( Mat 27 : 55; 28 : 5 ). In its
totality the attitude of our Lord (to woman) was revolutionary even though the
primary point of his ministry does not appear to have been to precipitate a
revolution in this area. Woman who aspire to a greater fulfilment of their own
humanity and those who sympathize with them in this yearning can hardly look for
a better ally than Jesus

II. PAUL’S ATTITUDE TOWARDS WOMAN

In order to understand this passage, it is necessary to gain an insight into Paul’s
attitude to woman, and their role in ministry, in the overall context of the New
Testament. In Romans 16 Paul mentions ten woman whom he describes as fellow
workers in the gospel in same way. We will look at three of these woman to see
Paul’s respect for them. He first mentions phebe, referring to her as a servant of the
church at Cenchrea. The word servant in the Greek is ‘diakonos’. This word is
found thirty times in the New Testament and is usually translated ‘ minister’. Seven
times the King James Version renders it ‘servant’ and the three times as ‘deacon’.
Paul refers to Priscilla and Aquila, as my fellow workers in Christ Jesus ( Rom 16: 3
). It seems that Priscilla had the lead role in this wife and husband teaching team.

The normal way of addressing couples, with the prominent person, usually the
husband, named first. The third woman is Junia, whom Paul refers to as outstanding
among the apostles, a fellow prisoner ( Rom 16: 7 ). John Chrysostom writes of this
woman, oh, how great is the devotion of this woman that she should be counted
worthy of the appellation of apostle. Paul in other places encouraged the woman
to pray, to prophecy in public ( 1 cor 11: 5, 13 ), and to teach. Paul refers to Timothy
himself, as one being taught by woman; his grandmother Lois and mother Eunice
( II Tim 1: 5 ).

It must be concluded that Paul was not generally opposed to woman praying,
teaching, prophesying or ministering in the church. So why was he opposed to
woman teaching or even speaking in the Ephesian church at this time.

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Reply by : mv   View Profile   Since : 4 Dec 2002 2:17:45 AM Close
We are restricting our women unnecessarly from understanding scripture. Many times we are forgetting that present day women are well educated and they can grasp the Bible as we can. My point is why we are not encouraging our sisters to study Bible (I mean using referece books or concordance)? Do they need help from men all the time to understand the Bible truth. There are many areas where our sisters can be useful vessel for Christ. More than half of our population is female. Men cannot easly tell gospel to them. Our sisters can visit female ward in hospitals, visit female inmates in prison, can spread gospel in girls school and colleges. When our sisters become mature in Bible truth, they can lead our women in teaching scripture. Sunday school ministry is another area where they can be useful. 'Women are weak vessel' doesn't mean that they must be silient in all areas of church activities. Weakness of our women is that they are not concentrating in self Bible study. They are always seeking men's help for understanding Bible truth.
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Reply by : One Believer   View Profile   Since : 4 Dec 2002 10:43:34 AM Close
We are forgetting the fact that the attendence at most meetings would drop by at least 50% if the sisters were absent. So their attendence itself is a ministry. Second, prayer is the powerhouse of an assembly. Many women are real prayer warriors. Unseen by men, their labours will be promptly rewarded at the throne. A progressing church, a good message from a preacher are all directly attributed to our sisters' prayer. Many great preachers recall with gratitude the person who guided them to salvation was a sister (either mother, sister what ever she may be). Our sisters are doing tremendous contribution in gospel work among children. When it comes to the preparation of food, either for pot luck, weekly house meeting or for visiting brothern, no men can take over their reward. A social gathering or pinic without our sisters will be boring. Think of their service for providing food for sick, at the time of berevel, during wedding, everytime their silent presence is creating the occasion truly spiritual. In James 1:27 we read "pure religion and undefiled is to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction". Here is a ministry which is limitless. Our sisters can make sympathetic visit to their home.


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Reply by : JOHNY   View Profile   Since : 5 Dec 2002 2:55:23 AM Close
TEACHINGS AND PRACTICES OF JESUS

Jesus often used women as positive examples in stories and events for those who have responded to God with appropriate faith, the parables of Jesus often deal with the life and conduct of women (Mt.13:33 par. Lk. 13:20f., the women and the heaven; Lk 15:8ff., the lost coin; Mt. 24:40f. par. Lk.17:35, the women grinding at a mill).52 If Jesus' parables and actions lifted women to a status equal to that of men, and if in the Gospel narratives certain women stand out, the sayings of Jesus makes it clear that it is not of their sex that women or men are important.It is their
relationship to Jesus that matters.

Jesus' respect for and inclusion of women as disciples and proclaimers provided the foundation for the positive place of women in the earliest churches and their ministry. In fact the baptismal formula reflected in Gal. 3:28 and its statement that in Christ 'there is neither… male nor female' is probably rooted in the traditions of Jesus. This indicates the formative role of Jesus in Paul's theological vision for the Church's inclusive character. Jesus gave proof of his compassion and power in his
healing of women no less than of men: Peter's wife's mother (Mt. 8:14f. par. Mk.1:29ff. Lk. 4:35f.); Jairus daughter and the woman with the issue of blood; Jesus' gift and call to divine Sonship were extended for the poor and lost and in a special way for women upon whom he conferred a new dignity. In Lk. 8:1-3, we see women who were the traveling companions of Jesus and his male disciples. They were not the wives of disciples but they were women who had once been sick and cured by Jesus, the out caste of society that Jesus accepted and made whole.

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Reply by :   View Profile   Since : 24 Jul 2003 12:01:59 PM Close
it is a requirement for women to be silent the NT emphasises that women be silent in church. today christians are ignorant to except this
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Reply by : jay   View Profile   Since : 25 Jan 2004 12:11:13 AM Close
Well said Johny! There are other women mentioned in the NT that hold prominent places among the apostles, including Euodia and Syntyche (Philipians 4:3) and the "Elect Lady" of 2 John. There has been some recent scholarship among evangelical scholars, notably Karen Jo Torjeson, that has demonstrated the central place that women played in presiding over the early institution of the Eucharist in the Church as well.

It's time that our brothers in the Assemblies overcame their misogyny and looked at the above mentioned passages without prejudice. We have for too long been guilty of silencing half of the body of Christ due to our own cultural prejudices!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 26 Jan 2004 3:52:19 PM Close
On Oct. 28, 2002 Jo asked about 1 Timothy 2:11. Her question was, “Woman should keep silence…what woman should do? What the Greek text saying?”

Since no one ventured to answer this question, but provided certain other teachings, let me take the freedom to answer on your forum, Sister’s Forum.

1 Timothy 2:8-15 should be studied together with 1 Cor. 14:34-40. Since the question was specific to 1 Timothy 2:11, I will confine my comments to it.

The Greek is first and then it’s meaning in English: Guny (woman) en (in) ysucia (silence) manqanetw (let learn) en (in) pasy (all) upotagy (subjection).

A free translation: Let a woman (in your gathering) be a learner (not a teacher) in unvarying submission.

KJV: Let a woman learn in silence with all subjection.

JND: Let a woman learn in quietness in all subjection.

In 2:9-10 it was ‘women,’ but in 2:11 it is ‘woman.’ A change from plural to singular indicates not only a change in expression but also there is a passing into something new. It is self evident in the words “learn in silence.” ‘In silence,’ opposed to a woman drawing attention to her by public appearance, as in 2:9-10. ‘Let a woman learn,’ as opposed to ‘teach.’ ‘In all subjection,’ in opposition to ‘usurping authority over the man’ (man = anyr). ‘Being in subjection’ applies to teaching in gatherings of Christians (assemblies) and not in general (Acts 18:26).

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : jay   View Profile   Since : 2 Feb 2004 8:57:12 PM Close
In reply to Jo's inquiry, it would be better to perform an exegetical study of the whole passage, of which a study of the Greek would be one useful part. Brother Koshy's analysis is indeed useful, but ultimately leaves us neither here nor there.

I would direct you to the exegesis of these verses by the renowned Brethren scholar F. F. Bruce - Bruce argues that these verses in no way prescribe a universal restriction on women praying, leading song, or even teaching, during worship in the assemblies. It is we who have twisted these verses out of context to suit our own misogynist preconceptions. Bruce's comments can be found in his Bible Commentary which will in turn reference his more detailed studies of the passage.

Blessings

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Reply by : geomon   View Profile   Since : 16 Feb 2004 10:17:20 AM Close
I do not know why woman do not want to be silent in the assembly when it is clearly written in the word of God to be silent. EGO ! ! !
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Reply by : Varghese   View Profile   Since : 17 Feb 2004 8:42:12 AM Close
This is a topic for discussion and we learn from one another’s views. Lets not point to the letter of the word from one passage and make that as a doctrine. Moreover, using the words ‘ego’ is a cheap shot and will not help as it only ignites unhealthy exchange of words.

If it is a question of ego, there are more pointers to men for our egoistic behavior. So lets be gentle with our words and share our thoughts. Studying a passage, its context and other connecting passages are required to come to a doctrinal stand. If we are going to use the letter of the word to pronounce judgement, we must even teach against sisters talking during the coffee breaks!

God Bless!

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Reply by : geomon   View Profile   Since : 18 Feb 2004 10:33:29 PM Close
could you please explain the context of that passage
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Reply by : jay   View Profile   Since : 19 Feb 2004 1:54:19 PM Close
Hello Geomon,

I'll attempt to give a short contextual reading of the passage - please excuse me for being laconic for space considerations.
I'd encourage you to read the some of the references I've mentioned for yourself.

Cultural context: Let's for a minute step out of our own cultural presuppositions - that women are at all times to be silent
submissive in public and that therefore this passage prescribes a normative model. Let's instead step into the cultural context of the Biblical
passage. Ephesus was a city in which there were strong godess cults, in which women played an active and prominent role in
religious rituals and ceremonies. So while we assume that men must play the central role in our assemblies today, in Ephesus
at that time, it was assumed that women must do so. I'm basing these comments on studies by Karen Jo Torjeson, Katherine Kroeger,
Gordon Fee and Ben Witherington - all have taught or teach at conservative Evangelical institutions.

Textual context: A reading of the chapter and the verses that come immediately before and after give us the impression that
Pauls' overall concern is to encourage the believers to worship in harmony with one another. Paul is specifically addressing
certain issues within the Church - anger and disputes among the men and a similar confrontational behaviour among the women.
So the verses are to be interepreted as prescriptive for such conflictual circumstances and not as a normative model.

Translation of 2:11-12:

2:11 - gunh (woman) en (in) hsucia (silence) manqanetw (understand) en (in) pash (every) upotagy (subjection)
2:12 - gunaiki (women) de (but) didaskein (to teach) ouk (not) epitrepw (I permit) oude (nor) authentein (to force authority over)
andron (man/husband) all (rather) einai (to be) en (in) hsuci (silence)

Continued in the next posting

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Reply by : jay   View Profile   Since : 19 Feb 2004 1:57:18 PM Close
Commentators have stressed the fact that the use of the word "authentein" (2:12) is unique to this passage in the NT. It is therefore meant to convey something very specific. The use of the word in the Greek literature of that time was always in a negative connotation - to kill, exercise dominion over, to be autocratic. Clearly it is not forbidding women from holding leadership positions over men. Paul is forbidding these Ephesian women from forcefully dominating the men in the context of worship - where they (the women) would have seen this as their cultural right. They are instead encouraged to be "en pash upotagy" - in every subjection. Now this is important - what is meant is not subjection in a spirit of fear or abject subjugation - is this not against the very spirit of the overall passage encouraging harmony, and with Paul's overall message? Instead, I'd contend that Paul is writing in the very same spirit that in which he encourages harmony among Church leaders, family members and masters/slaves elsewhere - ie Ephesian women, don't be domineering and autocratic, but be in every loving subjection.

Further more, the double Greek negative "ouk... oude" serves to qualify the verb didaskein - this interpretation is supported by the fact that elsewhere in the Epistle, the use of the verb didasko is always accompanied by a qualifying verb. So the prohibition against teaching is not directed universally, but only towards forceful and autocratic teaching.

One last observation - I can't help but see the irony in this passage when applied to our assemblies today. Men see it as their cultural right to domineer over women - something that Paul expressly forbids. Second, he forbids autocratic teaching, which is again so common in our assemblies, when a group of elders force their personal views or opinions on Church members. By reading the letter of the passage as opposed to discerning its spirit, we've missed the whole point!

Blessings

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Reply by : geomon   View Profile   Since : 21 Feb 2004 2:57:32 AM Close
Dear Brother,

I do know that the Word of God is for ordinary people, not intellectuals.You need not be a believer to study the Bible. But I don't believe in commentaries. What I beleive is the Word itself and I know very well that meditation is the best way to learn the Bible.

If a woman leads in the assembly in prayer or in any other matters, she would definitely lead in everything in her own house also, which God definitely doesn't please with.

Please read 1 cor. 11:3, 14:34 and I tim 2:11

It is definitely not about talking during coffee breaks!!

In Him


Geomon

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Reply by : jay   View Profile   Since : 21 Feb 2004 7:57:06 PM Close
Hello Geomon,

I agree with you. There really is no substitute for meditative study of the Bible. However, I don't come to the same conclusions as you, commentaries aside, when I prayerfully read these passages in their entirity and along with other passages (see Gal 3:28).

I'm not sure that I agree with your rather glib dismissal of commentaries. In any case, it's only the cultural context paragraph that comes from these commentaries - the rest of the discussion is based mostly on my own preayerful reading. And I also feel that your point about women Church leaders wanting to take over the household is a little, well, culturally-coloured.

As for the passages that you mention, no indeed they're not talking about coffee breaks But I think that if I were to share my understandings of these passages, and the one mentioned in the "can women speak..." discussion we would come back to this same point about the de/merits of scholarship/commentaries etc. So for that reason I won't and leave it there.

Blessings

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Reply by : geomon   View Profile   Since : 22 Feb 2004 2:46:51 AM Close
Dear Jay,

Thank you very much and I appreciate your way of writing.It doesn't hurt anyone.

Regarding commentaries, I don't say that I don't read it. But I come to my own conclusions but prayerfully.

Thank you

Waiting for His Appearing

Geomon


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Reply by : ba   View Profile   Since : 6 Jan 2005 12:59:06 PM Close
Alfred P. Gibbs once said, "Women sacrifice praise inaudibly".

Thank you.

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