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Keralabrethren.net: Sisters' Forum: Our role in worship

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# 00057 :  Our role in worship
What is our role in worship meeting?
Post by : peace  View Profile    since : 26 Sep 2005


Reply by : jpdobcofjc   View Profile   Since : 28 Sep 2005 1:59:45 PM Close
I believe a similar query was already discussed in this forum ("can sisters speak in the assemblies?"). Anyhow, from my understanding of scriptures, especially during worship when the entire local body has gathered, women are to remain quiet, worship/pray silently, and sing as mightily as their heart desires. =) As far as a woman's role in all other gatherings/meetings, I have as of yet to come to a definitive conclusion.
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Reply by : jbdubai   View Profile   Since : 2 Oct 2005 2:37:03 AM Close
sisters

I am a married person, i dont know whether i am allowed to contribute in sisters forum.(if anyof you object, i will not post again)anyway let me tell my conviction for the first time.

i believe 'let women be silent in the church' doesnt meant that no sister should open their mouth in the assembly and keep their mouth shut till the end of meeting.

bible dont allow them to teach, advice, exhort, or lead a gathering where men are also present.

They can participate in singing and in any other form which will not break the above conditions. they can praise and thank God silently or with very limited sound and glorify God. i believe bible doesnt prohibit that.

sisters are not just viewers of a gathering, they can and they should participate subject to the guidelines from word of God.

(i doubt whether some churchs are moved to the extreme of 'absolute ban on sisters voice and insists complete silence of sisters' and sister become mere witnesses or viewers without any kind of participation.

they themself abstains from the 'allowed things/ ministries' by misunderstanding the word of God, or due to the practices)

this is my personal conviction, if i am wrong, i am willing to correct my self,based on Bible (not based on what any assembly's practice)

God bless

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Reply by : elsie   View Profile   Since : 3 Oct 2005 8:47:34 PM Close
Dear sr:Peace, a very good picture of worship we find in John gospel ch: 12, that Mary worshiped at the feet of Jesus. Our Lord not only accepted her worship, but He praised her worship.Worship is the atitude that rise up from our hearts that filled with praise and thanks to the Heavenly Father for sending His only son to save us. Also for giving us the Faith to believe the truth of salvation and the amazing Grace by which we are saved. When we meditate upon that amazing Grace of God and His Love our hearts are filled with gratitude and thanks giving which flow freely from our hearts and we praise God through Jesus our Lord and worship Him by the help of the Holy Spirit.Worship is the heart language. Here Mary is not uttering a single word!That is the true worship. When we gather together we sing praises to the Lord. Brothers exhort thought provoking words from the scriptures. we sisters can meditate and quitely worship our Lord from our hearts. We need to come prepared when we come to worship the Lord. We can pour out our hearts to the Lord in adoration.I don't think we need to worship audibly, we can say "Amen," "praise the Lord" or "Thank you Lord"from our hearts.Our Lord is looking into our hearts to see whether our worship is in truth and in Spirit. To me the silent worship from our hearts are more precious to our Lord like Mary's worship.
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Reply by : elsie   View Profile   Since : 3 Oct 2005 9:46:38 PM Close
When Mary was sitting at the feet of Jesus and while she was showing her gratitude to Jesus for all He had done to her and to her family she could not stop worship Him. There presented the disciples, her brother, sister and others.But how quietly and humbly she offered her gift of thanksgiving to the Lord! Same way we can worship our Lord. May God bless.
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Reply by : achachan   View Profile   Since : 19 Oct 2005 2:19:09 AM Close
Acts 21:9
Now this man(Philip) had four virgin daughters who were prophetesses.
Who did they prophecy to?
Where did they prophecy?
Why didn't they keep shut up like other brethren sister?
Are prophets 2nd in rank(Apostles,prophets, ..)?
Women had that kind of position in the first centuary church?
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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 21 Oct 2005 6:02:38 AM Close
Paul writes, "But every WOMAN that prayeth or PROPHESIETH with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head" (1 Cor 11:5). But in just a few chapters later, we see Paul saying "it is a shame for women to SPEAK IN THE CHURCH" (1 Cor 14:35). So, definitely, these WOMEN prophesied, but not "IN THE CHURCH." Because prophesying involves SPEAKING. We can be assured, that the 4 daughters of Philip DID NOT prophesy in a church GATHERING. Suppose they DID, then they would have to line up with the Pauline doctrine that needs to be followed in the Church age.

Today, we do NOT have any prophets. They were there before, in Acts 11:27; 13:1; 15:32; 21:10. If there is any "prophet" today, he should go by Paul's teaching. "If any man think himself to be a PROPHET, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" (Acts 14:37).

The foundation of the Church is Jesus Christ (1 Cor 3:11). And that foundation is laid only ONCE, by the APOSTLES and the PROPHETS (Eph 2:20; 3:5). We do not lay any foundation now, but we BUILD UPON the foundation (1 Cor 3:9-11). If there are any "prophets" TODAY, they must be "FALSE prophets" (1 John 4:1). What we have today is "EVANGELISTS", "PASTORS and TEACHERS." These Pastor-Teachers are called BISHOPS, OVERSEERS, and ELDERS, and they are supposed to FEED THE FLOCK.

First century church was in a dispensational transition, because of which you cannot apply all things that happended in that time. Read about the baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit get REVERSED in ORDER in Acts 10:44-48 when compared with Acts 2:38. But those who teach "baptismal regeneration" want to go by Acts 2:38. They cannot move on from there to Acts 10, and get the FULLER revelation. First century examples are good, but if you make a doctrine out of some 1st century practice that violates Paul's doctrine in the epistles (Romans to Philemon), then such a doctrine is clearly wrong.

Moses LemuelRaj

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Reply by : peace   View Profile   Since : 22 Oct 2005 1:34:26 AM Close
The bible says that women are not to speak in Church, then how is it in some of the brethren prayer meetings, the sisters are asked to pray.
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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 23 Oct 2005 1:59:04 PM Close
Some people understand the "silence" of 1 Cor 14:34, and 1 Tim 2:11-12 as women refraining from public speaking in the church, or teaching or preaching. Such people would allow them to pray. The reason they show is the context of 1 Cor 14. In 1 Cor 14, the prophets (men)were asked to speak one by one (vs 29-33), and the speakers in tongues were asked to be silent of they did not interpret (v.28). As for the WOMEN, Paul goes on to say, "Let your women keep SILENCE in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to SPEAK" (v.34). The argument is, since the SILENCE here is refraining from SPEAKING, it only means as much as v.28 would mean. So they let women pray, as they think PRAYING is not SPEAKING (as the tongue speaker, or prophet would speak).

I am not personally comfortable with this interpretation, though I do not make big issue out of it. I would rather have it as we have it in the "Brethren Assemblies." One thing is sure. Women are not allowed to TEACH, or SPEAK in the assembly. Now that does not mean they cannot SING songs. Whether 1 Cor 14, or 1 Tim 2 give allowance for women to PRAY, or give thanks is mostly depending on how one understands these passages.

"And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church" (v.35). It appears to me from this verse, that even ASKING questions to get certain things clarified also is prohibited. Because the Scripture says here, "let them ask their husbands at home."

I reason why I would say women should NOT PRAY audibly (in a church gathering) is as follows:

In 1 Tim 2:8-11 Paul says, "I will therefore that MEN PRAY every where...In LIKE MANNER also, that WOMEN ADORN themselves in modest apparel.... Let the WOMAN learn in SILENCE with all subjection."

So, men PRAY, and women ADORN with good works (v.10), and remain SILENT. There is NO MENTION of women PRAYING. Men PRAY in verse 8, women keep SILENCE in verse 11. In the SAME CONTEXT.

Hope this helps...

Moses LemuelRaj

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 23 Oct 2005 8:49:47 PM Close
peace,

I didn't see anything wrong if 1 or 2 women and 1 or 2 men pray sunday morning before the gathering separate for bible class and sunday school. After that is the bible study then the elder pray for that. Then kids come with adults and praise and worship starts. Then Lord's Supper. And then the sermon. What is wrong in that. 1 or 2 women have the oppertunity early in the morning while everybody is on their way.

Thank you.
Sunila.

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Reply by : peace   View Profile   Since : 6 Nov 2005 11:38:27 PM Close
Dear Sister Sunila

As per what Bro Lemuelraj has said women are to be silent in the church meetings.

"So, men PRAY, and women ADORN with good works (v.10), and remain SILENT. There is NO MENTION of women PRAYING. Men PRAY in verse 8, women keep SILENCE in verse 11. In the SAME CONTEXT."

This is what I understand. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

We women are asked to be silent in church, which includes prayer. But prayer comes from the heart and that's what we can truly do. Church is the only place we are asked to be silent. From what I have heard and learned the role of the women are mostly for her home.

But if an elder or a deacon asks us to pray (bible study or prayer meeting), we can then do so. After all them being elders and deacons should be well versed in the Biblical doctrine to know what is right and what is wrong.

Bro Lemuelraj thanks for your explanation from the Scriptures. And also to Sis elsie and jbdubai.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 7 Nov 2005 10:13:16 AM Close
sister peace,

You are right.
I don't think the elder or decon must be corrected. Because in 1 Corin 14 :34, 35 the congregations of the God's people or the church means the Lord supper and the sermon. See verse 35. THE LAW SAYS SO. (I am getting from malayalam bible and complete Jewish Bible).

34.Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.(KJV)

1 Timothy 2:11,12 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (KJV)

I said we can do BEFORE the church COME TOGETHER, when the elder asks you to pray. WE MUST BE SUBMISSIVE not only in the church but also to the authority at work and home.

Sunila.

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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 13 Sep 2007 4:06:27 AM Close
Dear sisters in the Lord,peace,
Well I humbly disagree with the statement, and its approval when said:

"But if an elder or a deacon asks us to pray (bible study or prayer meeting), we can then do so. After all them being elders and deacons should be well versed in the Biblical doctrine to know what is right and what is wrong. "

Well, I don't think its Scriptural to folllow elders, even if they don't agre with thw word of God. Men are not infallable unlike the Scriptures. We should try to obey the word o God, and not men, if they are on the contrary planes.
Well for us, sisters, as sister "elsie" rightly pointed out is from the heart. Church is the body of Christ, where the Lord is present, as per His promise...where two or three are gathered in my name, I am in their midst...(from memeory, forgive me, if I went wrong somewhere)
Also the Scripture doesn't permit sisters to lead..have headship over brothers.
I hope I could communicate what I wanted to say. Sorry, I'm considerably poor at expressing myself. Please bear with me.
God be with you,

your sister in Christ,
Tinka

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Reply by : paulsmathew   View Profile   Since : 7 Jan 2008 3:57:45 AM Close
But every woman praying or prophesying with her head unveiled dishonoureth her head: for it is one and the same thing as if she were shaven"
this verse from 1st corint 11:5 is a verse against women praying or prophesying with her head uncovered but it also seems to suggest that there were in the time of apostle paul women who prayed and prophesied but the condemnation here was not on them doing so but dong so in a manner which is unworthy that is with their head uncovered..
therefore to say that women should not peak in assembly is something on which we should really think and ask God's leadin rather than makin it a general rule..
in that case they should not join in singing when we sing hymns be it worship meetings or any other meetings but we do allow that.. so why be selective in following the God's word. we must be able to follow the God's word fully isn't if women are meant to be silent..
what i'm coming to is brothers is that we need to understand the backgrounds and situations for which they were written. rather than making sweeping statements in our own understanding.
hope and pray that the Holy Spirit keeps us open to hear His word afresh rather being dogmatic in what have held on for long.. rest issues in later posts.
God bless you all especially you mr. witness for bringing out these issues,,

(taken from my post on general forum)
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Reply by : paulsmathew   View Profile   Since : 7 Jan 2008 4:00:55 AM Close
dear bro george koshy(icorinth 14)
Here the apostle, 1. Enjoins silence on their women in public assemblies, and to such a degree that they must not ask questions for their own information in the church, but ask their husbands at home. They are to learn in silence with all subjection; but, says the apostle, I suffer them not to teach, 1Ti_2:11, 1Ti_2:12. There is indeed an intimation (1Co_11:5) as if the women sometimes did pray and prophecy in their assemblies, which the apostle, in that passage, does not simply condemn, but the manner of performance, that is, praying or prophesying with the head uncovered, which, in that age and country, was throwing off the distinction of sexes, and setting themselves on a level with the men. But here he seems to forbid all public performances of theirs. They are not permitted to speak (1Co_14:34) in the church, neither in praying nor prophesying. The connection seems plainly to include the latter, in the limited sense in which it is taken in this chapter, namely, for preaching, or interpreting scripture by inspiration. And, indeed, for a woman to prophesy in this sense were to teach, which does not so well befit her state of subjection. A teacher of others has in that respect a superiority over them, which is not allowed the woman over the man, nor must she therefore be allowed to teach in a congregation: I suffer them not to teach. But praying, and uttering hymns inspired, were not teaching. And seeing there were women who had spiritual gifts of this sort in that age of the church (see Act_22:9), and might be under this impulse in the assembly, must they altogether suppress it? Or why should they have this gift, if it must never be publicly exercised? For these reasons, some think that these general prohibitions are only to be understood in common cases; but that upon extraordinary occasions, when women were under a divine afflatus, and known to be so, they might have liberty of speech (taken from my post on general forum on brethren have become legalistic)
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Reply by : paulsmathew   View Profile   Since : 7 Jan 2008 4:02:55 AM Close
reply to bro george koshy contd.
hey were not ordinarily to teach, nor so much as to debate and ask questions in the church, but learn in silence there; and, if difficulties occurred, ask their own husbands at home. Note, As it is the woman's duty to learn in subjection, it is the man's duty to keep up his superiority, by being able to instruct her; if it be her duty to ask her husband at home, it is his concern and duty to endeavour at lest to be able to answer her enquiries; if it be a shame for her to speak in the church, where she should be silent, it is a shame for him to be silent when he should speak, and not be able to give an answer, when she asks him at home. 2. We have here the reason of this injunction: It is God's law and commandment that they should be under obedience (1Co_14:34); they are placed in subordination to the man, and it is a shame for them to do any thing that looks like an affectation of changing ranks, which speaking in public seemed to imply, at least in that age, and among that people, as would public teaching much more: so that the apostle concludes it was a shame for women to speak in the church, in the assembly. Shame is the mind's uneasy reflection on having done an indecent thing. And what more indecent than for a woman to quit her rank, renounce the subordination of her sex, or do what in common account had such aspect and appearance? Note, Our spirit and conduct should be suitable to our rank. The natural distinctions God has made, we should observe. Those he has placed in subjection to others should not set themselves on a level, nor affect or assume superiority. The woman was made subject to the man, and she should keep her station and be content with it. For this reason women must be silent in the churches, not set up for teachers; for this is setting up for superiority over the man.
what im saying at the end is that yes women do not have authority to teach in an assembly but yes when it comes to worship to singing why should they be stopped and told that the scripture does
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Reply by : paulsmathew   View Profile   Since : 7 Jan 2008 4:04:32 AM Close
alow them to do so ?
moreover as a believer we are all seen as equal in the sight of God . so for a sinner to worship His or her GOd how can we lay restraint it be it man woman slave or rich(Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
even in revelation we see repeatedly great multitude worshipping the Lord almighty.. there's no restriction there to worship be it male or female
so when we say silence in the asembly that dos not give us the whole and sole license to supres all maner of speaking of the women believers but is restricted to

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Reply by : paulsmathew   View Profile   Since : 7 Jan 2008 4:05:40 AM Close
certain things as can be seen as teaching and excercising authority in the assenbl in the presence of male believers..
all this talk brother is only with a desire brother to follow the Word in its entirety and not deduce anything of human or denominational interpretation .
so brother thanks for being patient enough to rad thru this..
May God bless you

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