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Keralabrethren.net: Sisters' Forum: ceassation of the gift of tongues

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# 00061 :  ceassation of the gift of tongues
Dear sisters in Christ, Its suprising that some of ous beleive that the gift of tongues, and other such gifts like knowledge,prophecy still exist. So I thought we should discuss about this topic. I'm posting somethings, I would like your comments on it. Thanks, God bless you.
Post by : tinka  View Profile    since : 7 Jun 2006


Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 7 Jun 2006 2:48:31 AM Close
here is what i learnt from an excellenty brother in Christ:
. Tongues have ceased (5 proofs)
(1) Tongues sign of coming judgement upon the nation of Israel. AD 70 became obsolete. Audience scattered (1 Cor 1:22, 14:22).
(2) Signs always temp. By nature rare. Decrease in v as increase in f. The permanent works of Spirit outlined in John 14-16/Rom 8.
(3) 1 Cor 13:8 Tongues will cease of themselves when ‘that which [neuter] is perfect is come’ i.e. the complete canon (Jas 1:22-25). Tongues, prophecy and special words of knowledge superseded. ILLUS. Electricity into valley. Now, faith, hope and love abide.
(4) Tongues, once interpreted were on level prophecy (1 Cor 14:5).
Huge bearing on cessation issue.
Prophesy is forth-telling and uttering the very word of God. Needed in the early days of the NT.
Prophecy found its perfection with completion of the Bible.
This does not mean simply that no more verses can be added. No further inspired, authoritative communications come to people other than those that are found in the Bible.
Includes tongues. NT tongues were stop-gap revelations while scripture was being compiled. They added rev to the OT.
No further words, ideas, visions/prophecies shall supplement it.
Tongues is a de facto denial of the sufficiency of scripture.
(5) History confirms. Early church fathers witness:
Chrysostom of Antioch (347-407) on 1 Cor 12: “…the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such as used to occur but now no longer take place.” (Post Nicene Fathers, Vol 12, Page 168).
Augustine (354-430) on 1st John: “In the earliest times, ‘the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed: and they spake with tongues,’ which that had not learned, ‘as the Spirit gave them utterance,’ These signs were adapted to the time. For there behoved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues, to show that the gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a betokening, and it passed away” (Post Nicene Fathers, Vol 7, p. 498).

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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 7 Jun 2006 2:53:21 AM Close
Dear beloved in Christ,
The Scripture I was trying to quote is 1Corn 13, where Paul speaks of superiority of love. He gives the list of other gifts in a chronological way. (1)prophecy, (2) tongues and (3) knowledge. Eph 2:20 tell us that prophecy or prophets were foundational gifts. Tongues were sign gifts, The Jews always sought for signs (Jn 4:48). When God was dealing with people first he dealt with Jews first then the Gentiles. The Gospel was first proclaimed to the Jew(who rejected it), then to the Gentiles. Even Paul when he started his ministry-1st to the Jews. So we must understand this in Jewish context. In the first centaury ministry which was mainly among the Jews so the Jews, so there was need of sign gift. Third gift was knowledge, not the knowledge we hold right now, but the revelatory knowledge.
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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 7 Jun 2006 2:53:48 AM Close
contd:
Paul says in vs. 8 “where there is tongues, they shall cease. In Greek the term “pauo” was the most appropriate term used in Greek language that the apostles could use to speak of cessation of an activity involving speaking (cf Luke 11:1; Acts 5:42; 6:13; 20:31; Eph 1:16). The middle voice in Greek is to be translated: “Tongues shall cut themselves off”. The imagery is that of immediate cessation.(The KJ study Bible, KJV; Thomas Nelson Publishers, Nashville).
Here it conveys the idea that they’ll vanish by itself without external force.
Vs. 9- tells us of the nature of prophecy and knowledge:
(1) Knowledge was in part
(2) Prophecy was in part.
When the fullness of those parts will come the parts will pass away. Thus when they didn’t have the Bible with them, they needed these gifts to prove their authenticity as the bearer of God’s words. Thus when the 66 books of the Bible was written and complete Word of God was at hand and established, the gifts passed away. In third centaury there is no mention of tongues, except in heretical groups. Also there is no mention of it in the later epistles of Paul or Peter. Romans and 1Corn were the earlier epistles; Eph and 1Peter were later epistles we find other gifts except for tongues and prophecy.
Towards the end of 1st centaury itself the gifts of tongues and prophecy almost came to an end. When Paul was talking of the supremacy of love, first he talks of the gifts of God
(1) Prophecy: foundational gift
(2) Tongues: sign gift (which continued to exist after cessation of gift of prophecy)
(3) Revelatory knowledge
Vs 11. -Metaphor-of spiritual maturity. The more you are spiritually mature, you’ll put away the knowledge in parts rather want full knowledge of God (entire).
Vs. 12- coming of the Lord
Vs. 13-summary of the entire thing in chap 13-faith, hope and love and the greatest is love. Hope and faith is till we see the Lord, but love will continue till eternity. So love is elevated and exalted.
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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 7 Jun 2006 2:55:45 AM Close
Here is something I learnt in a text material by William MacDonald, based on the same fact. If you don’t believe me, then I think you’ll rely better on the words of this wonderful co-believer, who is definitely very sound in his Scriptural base and very learned. His writings I’ll quote* as follows:
“Love will never, while there are prophecies (at the time Paul was writing), need for such direct revelations would be terminated when the last book of the New Testament would be completed. Tongues were still in use in Paul’s day but they would cease in and of themselves when the sixty-six book of the Bible were finished, because they would no longer be necessary to confirm the preaching of the apostles and prophets (Heb 2:3,4). Knowledge of divine truth was being given by God to the apostles and prophets, but this would also be stopped when the complete body of Christian doctrine was once and for all delivered.
Vs. 13:9- We, that is the apostles, know in part (in the sense that we are still receiving inspired knowledge by direct revelation from God), and we prophesy in part (because we can only tell forth the partial revelations that we are receiving.)
Vs. 13:10- But when that which is perfect is come, that is, when the Canon is completed through the last book’s being added to the New Testament, then periodic or piecemeal revelations of divine truth will be stopped, and the telling forth of this truth by prophets in fragments will be ended. There will be no more need for partial revelations since the complete Word of God will be here.
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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 7 Jun 2006 2:56:11 AM Close
contd:
The sign gifts were connected with the childhood of the Church. The gifts were not childish; they were necessary gifts of the Holy Spirit. But once the full revelation of God was available in the Holy Bible, the miracle gifts were no longer needed and were to be put aside. The word used for child means a baby without the full power of Speech (see Young’s Concordance).
Now (during the apostolic age) we see through a glass darkly. No one of us (apostles) has received God’s full revelation. It is being given to us in portions, like parts of a puzzle. When the Canon of Scripture is completed, the obscurity will be removed and we will see the picture in its entirety. Our knowledge, as apostles and prophets, is partial at present. But when the last book has been added to the New Testament, we will know more fully and intimately than ever before.

* I quote the portions I feel relevant

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 12 Jun 2006 12:44:53 AM Close
Dear Tinka

Thank you for your above postings, this subject had been discussed in various threads in general forum and youth forum, which you may refer to.

God Bless you
A Brother in Christ Jesus.

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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 13 Jun 2006 5:42:02 AM Close
Dear sambudhanoor,
actually some of our fellow sisters still beleive in the existance ofthe gift of tongues, and had asked me how I beleive on the contrary, so I had to post the above data.
I can't understand howcomes there are so many misinterpretation of the Bible. It really worries me. Along with the task of spreading the gospel message we should make sure that false teachings don't creep into among us, as the Bible warns us.
with love and reagrds in HIM,
Tinka
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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 13 Jun 2006 5:14:04 PM Close
Tinka,

Do not worry about what you don't know. There are different interpretations and religion based on bible. Don't worry. I read your testimony and i understood that you know the meaning of salvation. There are hundreds of people in India who speak in tonges. Baptism in Holy Spirit may not be wrong in some points. Try this... When you are alone with God, pray, Lord, if there is something called baptism in Holy Spirit give it to me also. Only if it is true and still existing. If It is true i need it. I found salvation is true. IF baptism in holy spirit and speaking in tonges is not satanic, meaning IF IT IS YOURS, give it to me also.

Because you believe in Jesus Christ, he will hear your prayers and if it is from Him, he will give it to you.

Don't worry about what you do not know. Baptism in Holy spirit is not studyable. It is experienceable.

God bless you.
Your sister in Christ,
Sunila.

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Reply by : pc   View Profile   Since : 16 Jun 2006 1:37:19 AM Close
Dear tinka,

You like many others believe that 'when the perfect comes the partial will be done away'which speaks of the completed cannon. That is your openion and is not an exegetical explation. If I say it(perfect) speaks of Jesus christ it is only my openion and I can not or you can not build a docrtine on openions or guess. Is that one verse in the manner you interpret is hermaneutical enough to prove that the gifts are ceased by the introduction of cannon. Strange! I am not coming from a Pentecostal background. I will add to this later.

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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 16 Jun 2006 2:45:56 AM Close
Dear sister Tinka,

If you study Sunila Joseph's postings, you will see a thread running through them. She bases her theories and beliefs on what she thinks that she has "experienced". Our beliefs relating to christianity and its doctrine must be based on the written Word of God. In this alone is safety.

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 16 Jun 2006 1:17:06 PM Close
Dear All,
I read above messages. Everybody try to make it heresy, what they don't experienced based on Bible. Pl. Read following article.

There are few things more controversial in the body of Christ than the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the accompanying gifts.
Much of modern-day Christianity sees the born-again experience as all there is to salvation. Many Christians oppose the belief that there is a separate experience of being filled with the Holy Spirit, and they especially oppose the validity of the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today’s believers.
That type of belief puts them in conflict with the book of Acts and the very teaching of Jesus. Those who experience the power of the Holy Spirit today are labeled as fanatics or heretics. But what does the Bible have to say? What did Jesus say about this?
On the night before Jesus’ crucifixion, He made one of the most astounding statements of His whole ministry. John 16:7 records these words:
“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.”
Grasp what Jesus is saying! Jesus said it is more beneficial for us to have the ministry of the Holy Spirit than it was to have Jesus present with us in His physical body!
Most Christians are totally shocked by this. They would give anything to have Jesus present in His physical body. How could anything be better than to physically see, hear, and touch Him?
Jesus knew His disciples would be shocked by His statement, so He prefaced it with the words, “I tell you the truth.” As hard as it may be to understand, the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer is better than the earthly ministry of Jesus.
This is not to take anything away from His ministry on this earth. Without Jesus coming to the earth and accomplishing what He did, there could be no ministry of the Holy Spirit. The whole plan of God hinges on the redemptive work of Christ.
Continued.....

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 16 Jun 2006 1:19:53 PM Close
These are excerpts from one article on the following:
http://www.awmi.net/extra/article/holy_spirit
pl. read this further.

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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 17 Jun 2006 3:56:43 AM Close
dear beloved in Christ,
I want to copy a notes of a sermon that my brother delivered when he came to India. It covers all these issues. Let us not block our heads with prejudices and prior teachings that may contradict this, but try to understand if what this says is Scriptural or not.
The Baptism in the Spirit
Turn to Rom 8
Introduction
USA. Explain where India is. In USA don’t go geography.
Again, Americans don’t like history, they leave that to the British.
Not sure about British. YP don’t know history of Bible, doctrine, Ref etc.
Cicero: “If you don’t know what happened before today you are condemned forever to be a child.” Those who do not learn about the mistakes of history are condemned to repeat them.

Discussion
1. History of the Pentecostal Charismatic movement:
Tongues are mentioned in Acts 3x.
Paul speaks of them in 1 Cor, the 3rd he wrote. That was AD 57. That’s it.
Although Montanists claimed visions and inspired ecstasy, real ceased.
Chrysostom of Antioch (347-407) on 1 Cor 12: “…the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such as used to occur but now no longer take place.” (PNF, V 12, p 168).
Augustine (354-430) on 1st John: “In the earliest times, ‘the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed: and they spake with tongues,’ which they had not learned…These signs were adapted to the time. For there behoved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues, to show that the gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a betokening, and it passed away” (Post Nicene Fathers, Vol 7, p. 498).

First people in modern era were Irvingites (1828-1878) – Edward Irving.
Pentecostal Movement began on Jan 1st 1901 in Topeka, Kansas, USA.
Charles Parham preaching tongues initial evidence of BHS. Agnes Osman.
Dec 1905 a 10-week t-course William Seymour. LA/AzusMeetings 3x a day, 7 days a week for 3 years (1906-9).
Spread worldwide, but confined to Pentecostal denominations
a St Mission.

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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 17 Jun 2006 4:01:04 AM Close
contd:
Change in late 1950s through men like Dennis Bennett and David DuPlessis.
Books Cross and the Switchblade, ‘charismatic renewal’ started to jump.

Third wave in 1990s signs and wonders.
John Wimber, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Toronto Blessing.
From fringe to mainstream in 100 years. Non-charismatics a minority.

2. Ascendancy of the movement:
Pervasive influential movement. Changed face of Christianity. New era.

Seven main areas of promotion and influence:
1. Bookshops promote it with books, ‘worship’ CDs etc. (HPST)
2. Song Books majority charis (MP 226 Renew Wonders New Pentecost).
3. Alpha Course by Nicky Gumbel (Questions of Life page 147)
4. March For Jesus. Gerald Coates/Graham Kendrick (Worship, p. 89-90).
5. Music groups and organisations like Hillsong & Makeway Music.
6. Conferences like Spring Harvest, New Wine, Soul Survivor etc.
7. Churches like Elim, Assemblies of God, Jesus Army, FGBF, Vineyard, Calvary Chapel, Community Churches, King’s Churches etc.
The movement is full of people once in non-charismatic churches.
Many nons have become charismatic.

3. Theology of the movement:
Central dogma & common experience = subsequent to salvation and reception of the Holy Spirit, a person must or can receive the baptism/filling of the Spirit which must or may be evidenced by speaking in tongues.
Without it movement never started/would not survive. Concert/orchestra.
Apostolic period = former rain. Charismatic = latter rain.

What does the Bible say?
First TURN TO Rom 8:9 At conversion all believers receive the Spirit.
Eph 1:13 – “Upon believing ye were sealed.”
TURN TO 2 Cor 1:22 Pledge of all that is to come (Gk. Engagement ring)
The earnest of the Spirit means the Holy Spirit belongs to me (Eph 1:14)
The sealing of the Spirit means I belong to the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30)
At conversion the Holy Spirit regenerates (John 3:3, Titus 3:5)
anoints (2 Cor 1:21, 1 John 2:27)
seals (2 Cor 1:22, Eph 1:13, 4:30)
indwells (John 14:17, 1 Cor 6:19)

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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 17 Jun 2006 4:05:26 AM Close
contd:What about the Baptism and the filling of the Spirit?
Crucial get terminology right. 5 refs (Mt 3:11, Mk 1:8, Ac 1:5, 11:16, 1 Cor 12:13).
TURN TO Matt 3:11 Not ‘by’ or ‘of’ the Spirit, but ‘in’ the Spirit.
Who is the baptiser? The Lord baptises in the Spirit.

Four things are involved for a baptism:-
Water Baptism Spirit Baptism
Candidate Saved sinner Repentant sinner
Element Water Holy Spirit
Baptiser Another Christian Christ
Result Good conscience Member of body of Christ
TURN TO 1 Cor 12:13 If not baptised in Spirit, not in the body/saved.
* Not possible to be baptised in the Spirit more than once.
* Not an experience that comes later than salvation itself.
ILL Fish life depends on fish in water/water in fish Remove either.
Human life depends on person in air/air in person Remove either
New Testament life in the Spirit depends in/in

What then is the Filling of the Spirit?
TURN TO EPH 5:18
NTS. If you fill a bottle, different to baptising the bottle. Water in/in water.
* The baptism is a spiritual act of the Lord Jesus position in Christ.
* The filling is the daily work of the Spirit in you as you feed on Christ.

The Holy Spirit is received at salvation and takes up residence. He fills you.
You cannot have half or quarter of the Spirit.
The filling is not how much I have of the Holy Spirit but…
ILLUS: Person who is full of anger. Controlled by that emotion.
Summarise:
The Baptism in the Spirit
A fact to be believed 1 Cor 12:13
True positionally of all 1 Cor 12:13
Relates to a believer’s standing
Spoken in past t of all 1 Cor 12:13
An unrepeatable once-for-all act
Never given as a command
The Filling of the Spirit
A command to be obey Eph 5:18
Only true of spiritual Eph 5:18
Relates to a believer’s state
Pres pass imp, keep on Eph 5:18
Must be constantly maintained
Commanded in Eph 5:18


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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 17 Jun 2006 4:09:32 AM Close
contd:
Baptism in the Spirit:Brings one into Christ body church
Puts the believer in a new Position
Connected with salvation
Cannot be un-baptised
Means the believer is in Holy Spirit
The Filling of the Spirit:
Empowers the believer for service
Gives the believer a new Power
Connected with walk
Can be un-filled
Means the Holy Spirit in believer
If it’s all so clear, why do millions believe in the baptism of the Spirit and speaking in tongues as a second experience?
1. Because they don’t rightly divide the word as above.
2. Because they draw their doctrine from three unique transitional experiences recorded in Acts.

Unique transitional cases
1. TURN TO ACTS 2:1-4
Hermenutics is a fancy word for principles of scripture interpretation.
The most important law is context.
Context of Acts 2? All in upper room are already believers, justified by faith.
Lord ascends. Baptises to form 1 body He is head (1 Cor 12:13, Eph 1:22-3).
This Pentecostal baptism was:
a. Unique unrepeatable event which took place on a specific day
b. Accompanied by specific phenomena (tongues like fire, sound)
c. Answer to the Lord’s prayer to His Father to send Sp (John 14:16-7).
The fact of the gap between the salvation & the baptism is not a norm.
Exceptional/initial baptism, “He dwelleth in you & shall be in you” Jn 14:17
Not pattern for a second experience today. We don’t need another Pentecost.
Tarrying for Spirit is therefore unscriptural – He has already come.

NOTE: asking for the Spirit in Lu 11:13 was proper in the pre-Pentecost age (cp. Psa 51:11). See Matt 7:11 where the parallel is ‘good things’ showing the verse is about blessings not an ‘experience’.

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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 17 Jun 2006 4:12:35 AM Close
contd:2. TURN TO ACTS 8:12, 14-17
Context? The Samaritans were saved/baptised but no Spirit. Why?
Need to understand:
1. Half-breeds who had intermixed with the Assyrians (2 Kings 17:24)
2. Worship rejection of the Zion. HQ Mount Gerezim (John 4:20) not far from Nablus in the West Bank.
3. They had a corrupted version of the Pentateuch
Danger of a ‘Samaritan church’.
Solution: the Holy Spirit is withheld until
1. The Jewish apostles from Jerusalem come – Philip was not enough.
2. Hands laid on them in symbolic act of identification. Enmity gone.
Not pattern for a second experience or delay today.


3. TURN TO ACTS 19:1-7
Context? Another unique and unrepeatable exception situation.
Question: when John and Andrew baptised? By John the Baptist (John 1:35).
Why not rebaptised? Baptism was valid in the day when they submitted.
Apollos’ converts (Acts 18:25).
But this message and its baptism are no longer valid.
Thus, they are not given the Holy Spirit, though saved.
“Did you receive the Spirit when you believed?”
Not realise Holy Spirit had come and that Christ had fulfilled all.
Up to date, rebaptised/hands laid by apostles (who have superseded John).
As a sign they speak in tongues.
Not a pattern for a second experience today.
In between each case souls saved/receiving the Spirit immediately. No gap.
People filled with spirit not speaking with t (Acts 2:41, 4:4, 31, 7:55, 13:52).

All the exceptions strong transitional Jewish elements.
But look at the Gentile passage.
TURN TO ACTS 10:44-47
No laying on hands. No water b. No gap. Faith, reception. Normative.

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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 17 Jun 2006 4:14:54 AM Close
Conclusion
All receive Spirit in fullness at conversion. Blessed truth.
By baptism in the Spirit they become members of His body. What a thought.
Through close walk filled with the Spirit. Amazing grace.
Any Acts delay explained by the particular and unique context.

Modus operandi of movement has no foundation/avoided at all costs.
Dangerous to prove salvation through emotional and ecstatic ‘baptism’.

STORY. Children going to India. Jemima still refers to it.
Had to have injections. But a little bit of pain inoculated them against pain. May these difficult studies preserve from doctrinal/ecclesiastical shipwreck.


Speaking in Tongues
Introduction
History, ascendancy and theology of Charismatic movement.
Central dogma.
Looked at baptism in the Spirit, now look at second part.

Discussion (8 parts)
1. Tongues were scarce even in the New Testament
14 Pauline epistles only 1 Cor mentions tongues. 3rd epistle written in 57AD.
There are only three historical incidents recorded:
1) Acts 2:1-12 2) Acts 10:44-48 3) Acts 19:1-7
In between 1000s saved but no tongues.
Tongues not evidence of salvation – rather 1 John and Romans 8.

2. Not everyone spoke in tongues in New Testament days
1 Cor 12:13 with v30. Although all baptized, not all speak.
Acts 2:39, “Promise to you & your children.” Verse about Holy Spirit not t.

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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 17 Jun 2006 4:16:40 AM Close
3. Tongues were real languages
1. Acts 2:8. 17 nations said hear apostles speak native lang (glossa). Each incident (Acts ch 2, 10 & 19) same gift/same sign .
2. ‘Dialect’ used in v6 & 8. Phrygians and Pamphylians both spoke Greek, but in different idioms; Parthians Medes and Elamites spoke Persian, in diff provincial forms. Ties it to actual languages.
3. 1 Cor 12:10 speaks of kinds of tongues. Not ecstatic ramblings. There were distinguishable kinds of languages.
4. The gift of tongues is likened to Assyrian language in 1 Cor 14:21-22.
5. The word for tongues (Greek: glossa) is often used in the NT to describe real languages (Rev 5:9, 7:9 etc).
6. Paul spoke actual words in a tongue (1 Cor 14:19).Today’s ‘tongues’ have no distinguishing vocabulary, no grammatical features and very limited vowel sounds
Professional witnesses:
William Samarin Prof. of Ling, University of Toronto travelled world recording: ‘‘In every case, glossolalia – that’s tongues-speaking – turns out to be linguistic nonsense’’ (Tongues of Men and Angels, 1972).
William E. Welmers Prof. of African Languages Uni of California LA: “…from the viewpoint of a Christian linguist the modern phen of gloss would appear to be a linguistic fraud &monstrosity, given even the most generous interp of 1 Cor 12-14” (Christianity Today, Nov 8, 1963, p. 127-8)
Dr. Eugene A. Nida (linguist) subjected recordings to group of linguists. i. The vowels used were almost exclusively i, a and o
ii. There was a very high repetition of individual sounds and syllables
iii. A pronounced tendency towards recurring sequences
iv. A complete lack of pauses, hesistations and control
Entirely abnormal in linguistic structure (Alliance Witness, Mar 2, 1966, p. 7).
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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 17 Jun 2006 4:18:43 AM Close
contd:
4. Tongues were supernatural.
No one had to practise nor think they were ‘making it up’.
Simply began to speak. It was a gift sovereignly given (1 Cor 12:8-10).
Contrast:
Nicky Gumbel. Questions of Life p. 147
Larry Christiansen, Speaking in Tongues page 130
Christ Leach, And For Your Children page 64-65 (rec. by Gerald Coates)

Former Pentecostal minister George E. Gardiner writes:
“The desire for experience coupled with instruction, motivation, & the approval of the peer group produces ecstatic speech. I have publicly said many times, ‘Give me a group of people who will do what I tell them to do; sing, relax, anticipate & go through the right motions & it will be only a matter of time before some will speak ecstatically!’ It is a psychological phenomenon & bears no resemblance to the tongues of the Bible” (The Corinthian Catastrophe, Kregel, p. 53).
5. Tongues were for a sign to unbelieving Israel not for private edification
Tongues ‘signified’ two things:
FIRSTLY – The apostles were God’s men (Mark 16:17)
Mark 16:17-20 (confirming the word with signs following)
Jews require a sign (1 Cor 1:22).
God always gave signs through their history to authenticate messengers:
Moses (Exod 4:30-31, 14:31)
Aaron (Num 17:8)
Elijah & Elisha (2 Kings 2:14-15)
The Lord Jesus (Acts 2:22)
The apostles (Mark 16:20, 2 Cor 12:12).
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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 17 Jun 2006 4:20:09 AM Close
contd:
SECONDLY – It was a sign of Judgment (1 Cor 14:22)
How? God’s message had always been in one language through one people. It declared gospel was now for all peoples, nations and tongues.
Tongues was a sign of removal of national blessing.
Sign to unbelievers. Their existence served as a signal.

There is a repeated pattern in scripture:
(i) God giving a message to the people
(ii) The people refusing to listen to God
(iii) God causing tongues to be heard as a sign of judgement
(iv) Dispersion following
Babel (Gen 9:1 –11:5)
Pre-captivity Israel (Deut 28:11-64, Jer 4:1-5:19, Isa 28:11-13)
Generation who heard Christ (Matt 11:28-24:2).

5. Tongues was the least gift
The church with the tongues the carnal, proud, sin-tolerating church.
Speaking in true tongues never made a person more spiritual.
Gift of the Spirit, but no fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22-23)?
The gift of tongues was the least profitable out of 20 (1 Cor 12:28) Mentioned last in all lists in 1 Cor 12, and not at all in Rom 12 and Eph 4.
6. Verses about tongues must be understood in their context
COME TO 1 Cor 14
In Questions of Life p. 143, NG quotes 4 partial verses in one paragraph.

1. v2. He who speaks in a tongue speaks to God not to men.
It’s a prayer language for use at home to God. No. Read the verse.
‘For no man understands him’. In a meeting no interp God is only audience!

2. v5 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself.
Use it for building up yourself and helping in times of crisis.
No. Read the rest of the verse.
Speaker could understand himself and was edified.
But self edification was not the purpose. Thus corrective.
Tongues were never used in private in the New Testament.
Edification is the rule/purpose. Edify is mentioned 7x in ch 14. See v26.
Even in church, tongues only of any profit if translated (1 Cor 14:5, 13, 26).
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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 17 Jun 2006 4:22:08 AM Close
contd:3. v14 Mind is unfruitful.
Doesn’t understand what he is saying. Spirit prays but mind switched off?
No. Spirit linked with mind. Can’t switch off one an edify the other.
Anyway, what cannot be understood cannot edity.
If he’s edified not understanding, so can church: inerp irrel (1 Cor 14:5b)
What does v14 mean then. My understanding unfruitful to congregation.

SCANDANAVIAN friend.
But why did he need to pray to interpret (v13)? Because to understand in a supernaturally revealed language needs a gift to bring it back to natural language with exactness.

4. v5 I would that you all spake with tongues.
There you are! No. Paul speaks in the spirit of Moses
“Would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets” (Num 11:29).
Rest: “but rather that ye prophesied.” Didn’t forbid tongues, wanted edify.

5. v18 I thank my God that I speak in tongue more than you all.
Read the next verse! Yet…in the church rather speak language (14:19).
Paul used the gift in the open air as an evangelistic proof (v22).

6. 1 Cor 14:39 Forbid not to speak with tongues
Read what comes before. Covet to prophecy. Tolerate but encourage proph.
7. Speaking in tongues was strictly regulated (1 Cor 14).
(1) No more than 3 to speak in tongues in 1 meeting (v27).
(2) They must speak in order, one at a time (v27).
(3) No singing in tongues permitted as this breaks rule No. 2.
(4) Interpreter must be present before tongues spoken (v28).
(5) Only one can interpret, even if 3 diff men tongues (v27).
(6) No women allowed to speak in tongues in the church (v34).

8. Tongues have ceased (5 proofs)(1) Tongues sign of coming judgement upon the nation of Israel. AD 70 became obsolete. Audience scattered (1 Cor 1:22, 14:22).
(2) Signs always temp. By nature rare. Decrease in v as increase in f. The permanent works of Spirit outlined in John 14-16/Rom 8.
(3) 1 Cor 13:8 Tongues will cease of themselves when ‘that which [neuter] is perfect is come’ i.e. the complete canon (Jas 1:22-25).

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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 17 Jun 2006 4:24:39 AM Close
contd:
Tongues, prophecy and special words of knowledge superseded. ILLUS. Electricity into valley. Now, faith, hope and love abide.
(4) Tongues, once interpreted were on level prophecy (1 Cor 14:5).
Huge bearing on cessation issue.
Prophesy is forth-telling and uttering the very word of God. Needed in the early days of the NT.
Prophecy found its perfection with completion of the Bible.
This does not mean simply that no more verses can be added. No further inspired, authoritative communications come to people other than those that are found in the Bible.
Includes tongues. NT tongues were stop-gap revelations while scripture was being compiled. They added rev to the OT.
No further words, ideas, visions/prophecies shall supplement it.
Tongues is a de facto denial of the sufficiency of scripture.
(5) History confirms. Early church fathers witness:
Chrysostom of Antioch (347-407) on 1 Cor 12: “…the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such as used to occur but now no longer take place.” (Post Nicene Fathers, Vol 12, Page 168).
Augustine (354-430) on 1st John: “In the earliest times, ‘the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed: and they spake with tongues,’ which that had not learned, ‘as the Spirit gave them utterance,’ These signs were adapted to the time. For there behoved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues, to show that the gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a betokening, and it passed away” (Post Nicene Fathers, Vol 7, p. 498).
Carey, Brainerd, Groves, Mueller, Spurgeon, McCheyne, Tyndale, Luther did not speak in tongues.

Has God changed? Has He lost His miracle working power.
He not only has power – but a plan and purpose.
Not a matter of what God can or cannot do – but what He will or will not do.

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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 17 Jun 2006 4:25:32 AM Close
contd:
Some questions answered
Q. Doesn’t the Bible says that the tongues were unknown?
A. Not in Greek. Only to a person in the audience not familiar. Not unknown to world’s family of languages.

Q. What about the groanings of Rom 8:26-27?
A. These verses are not about tongues. The groanings are the Holy Spirit’s not ours, and anyway, they cannot be uttered!

Q. Does not Mark 16v17 say they were ‘new’ tongues?
A. Only new to the speaker, not to the world’s language collection.

Q. But doesn’t the Bible say tongues are mysterious utterances?
A. No. The mysteries in 1 Cor 14:2 were not mysterious. Context – 1 Cor 13:2. Mysteries simply the truths of scripture now revealed (Eph 3:6).

Q. Did not Paul speak in the tongues of angels?
A. Firstly no one knows what angelic speech sounds like, since all angels spoke in human language; secondly, Paul was speaking hypothetically in 1 Cor 13:l. Same in Gal 1:8 angels preaching the gospel. Nowhere in the Bible does Paul ever claim to speak with the tongues of angels.

Q. Were not tongues uncontrollable ecstatic utterances?
A. No. The spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet (1 Cor 14:32). Peter stood up with the eleven in Acts 2.

Q. Doesn’t 1 Cor 14:28 allow for the private use of tongues.
A. No. This verse does not say “let him speak to himself in tongues.” Meditate and mull over.

Conclusion
STORY Stephania. Worried about salvation. I must be saved I speak in tongues. Quoted Luke 7:22-23. But that’s not fair. Why would God send to hell? Why should God take them to heaven. Works? Burst into tears.

That’s the solemn side of all of this. Am I saying all not saved. No. But this whole theology is dangerous and needs to be avoided.


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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 17 Jun 2006 4:40:35 AM Close
Well that was from my brother in Christ, of whom many of you may have heard, specially those living in U.K.
However sis Sunila, and others who still are as much inclined of not learning from the Scriptures, rather would depend on feelings and emotions, this is what I've to say to them. Remember what we learnt in the Scriptures, if we beleive on the Son of God then we should "know that we are saved" and NOT FEEL...
Our feelings may be deceived, but the Word of God is unalterable.
I beleive that in the Bible, God revealed His mind to us. So instead of listening to what others have to say, please I'd tell you read the Bible, start with N.T., and this N.T. read it 10 times continuous, along with redaing the O.T.
Start from Matt. and go onto Rev. don't skip, read everything. Prefarably read NKJV without any footnotes,etc. Let the Spirit of God speak to you.
We should rely on the Word of God than what we feel. For me, I think the Bible is like a love letter from Christ to His Church. So, there can be only one interpretation ot the Bible. As we grow in the Lord, those who are saved, to them God will help them to undertsand more and more from His words. So we should stand for the truth, rather than what our pastors may have taught us. Let us not be head strong, refusing not to agree with anything, or anybody who says apart from what we have been taught and beleive. Let us hear what they have to say and then comparing with what the word og God has to say, let us discern, by the help of God, as to what is the truth and for that we should stand.
well, we cant agree or work with people who doesn't teach the Biblical doctrines. The Scripture forbids that. We can't forgo with the truth, and say let us be open and you go your way, and not necessarily you have to beleive what I beleive. We must all agree witht he Scriptural truth. If we have to compromise with them, then we have to compromise with unbeleivers also. So we should take our stand with the truth and not interact with others who dont agree witht he Scriptures.bi
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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 18 Jun 2006 5:49:32 AM Close
Dear All,
May I explain to something about the tongues. So, why is there so much debate over this issue of Baptism in the Holyspirit, Gift of the spirit like tongues etc? The sad truth is that denial of the ministry and power of the Holy Spirit is a CONVENIENT theology. Believing that miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit don’t operate today excuses powerless living. If it’s true that the Holy Spirit is still willing to move as in biblical times (and it is true), then there is no excuse for living lives so far removed from the victory portrayed in God’s Word.

The number one reason people resist the ministry of the Holy Spirit is because it exposes the lack of power in their lives. And once exposed, it demands a change. In an attempt to avoid responsibility for change, they change the Scriptures instead of themselves. Of course, it’s not that blatant, but there is a predisposition against the ministry of the Holy Spirit, so the Scripture is twisted to support their views.I am not experiencing the gifts and power of God therefore it do not exists.

Fake notes are so much in every currency means that there is a true currency. Since there is fake currency I cannot claim that there is no real currency.

No one wants to admit that their lives are the result of their choices and actions. It’s appealing to think that someone else is at fault for their messed up lives. Sadly, the lack of personal responsibility in our society has crept into the attitudes of the churches and hence open your hearts to God ask for God to the truth rather than hiding the face from truth.

This is my understanding and NOT AN ARGUEMENT against anybody else discussion.

GOD BLESS.

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 18 Jun 2006 5:50:17 AM Close
Dear All,
May I explain to something about the tongues. So, why is there so much debate over this issue of Baptism in the Holyspirit, Gift of the spirit like tongues etc? The sad truth is that denial of the ministry and power of the Holy Spirit is a CONVENIENT theology. Believing that miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit don’t operate today excuses powerless living. If it’s true that the Holy Spirit is still willing to move as in biblical times (and it is true), then there is no excuse for living lives so far removed from the victory portrayed in God’s Word.

The number one reason people resist the ministry of the Holy Spirit is because it exposes the lack of power in their lives. And once exposed, it demands a change. In an attempt to avoid responsibility for change, they change the Scriptures instead of themselves. Of course, it’s not that blatant, but there is a predisposition against the ministry of the Holy Spirit, so the Scripture is twisted to support their views.I am not experiencing the gifts and power of God therefore it do not exists.

Fake notes are so much in every currency means that there is a true currency. Since there is fake currency I cannot claim that there is no real currency.

No one wants to admit that their lives are the result of their choices and actions. It’s appealing to think that someone else is at fault for their messed up lives. Sadly, the lack of personal responsibility in our society has crept into the attitudes of the churches and hence open your hearts to God ask for God to the truth rather than hiding the face from truth.

This is my understanding and NOT AN ARGUEMENT against anybody else discussion.

GOD BLESS.

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Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 20 Jun 2006 6:30:03 AM Close
1 Cori 13: 9 and 10
Some people have interpreted the "that which is perfect" of this verse as being the completed Bible. This has led them to believe that the gifts of the Spirit spoken of here (i.e. prophecy and tongues) have ceased. Although God's Word is perfect (Ps. 19:7), that cannot be the "perfect thing" that is spoken of here.

In verse 12, Paul said when that which is perfect is come, we shall see face to face. This is speaking of seeing the Lord face to face, instead of vaguely as though through a dark glass, as it is now. Some might argue that this is speaking in a symbolic sense instead of literally face to face. But the next comparison in the 12th verse says that then (when that which is perfect is come) we shall know all things even as we are also known. There is no other way to interpret that, except to be describing when we stand before the Lord, after this life. Then we will be face to face and know all things even as also we are known.

Verse 8 also says that at the time prophecies fail and tongues cease, knowledge will vanish away. That has to be talking about the next life, or the new heavens and earth, because one of the signs of the end times will be that knowledge shall increase (Dan. 12:4).

So the "that which is perfect" that Paul is speaking of cannot be the Bible. It has to be speaking of either our glorified body, or Jesus at His second coming. Either way, these verses establish that until that which is perfect is come, tongues and prophecy will remain. These are valid gifts today and operating by Church (not by any denomination) all over the world who believes.

God Bless

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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 21 Jun 2006 8:17:15 AM Close
Dear sajimaniyatt,
this is not an new arguement, the one that you stated. Let me reming you to read the Greek Bible, if possible. If you do, you'll understand that the verse you are talking about, "that which is perfect", the the grammar tells us that it is a neutar gender, which can not be applicalble to the Son of God, the 2nd Person in the Trinity.
Also tell me, it tells that when the perfect shall come, that which was in parts shall pass away(from memory, so most probably, this is not the exact quote). Do you suggest that our Lord was in parts??? Please be reasonable. It is quite obvious from the Word of God that it is definately not talking about the Lord Jesus Christ. Please don't interpret any way you like and claim that this may be the interpretation.
No offense meant. Sorry I may be sounding a bit rude, but I say exactly what I feel.
Please forgive me if I've offended you, but I've gotto stand for the truth.
God bless you and give you understanding over His words.
Love ya in Him,
Tinka
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Reply by : sincy_varghese   View Profile   Since : 21 Jun 2006 11:17:08 PM Close
No one who believes in the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the accompanying gifts say that the neuter gender speaks of the Son of God Himself. Raher it is an EVENT of the appearing of the Son of God. So the neuter genger 'which' is used to describe an EVENT of the fullness of comlete knowedge.
So it is interpreted as In the event of the apperaing of the Son of God or when HE appears we will know in full and when that time has come, ..

It is surprising that people accept 1 Cor 13, but ignore 1Cor 12 and 14. in chapter 12 Paul actually talked about the various gifts in the church and asked everyone to covet the best ones. Then in chapter 13 he said "before even I give you guidelines on how to exercise these gifts, you need to have love". Then he says in chapter 14 'Now that you have the gifts(chapter 12) and the love to exercise them (chapter 13), you are ready to exercise them with discipline (chapter 14). If Paul had stopped with chapter 13 I could have imagined that the gifts have been replaced or is irrelevant.

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Reply by : pc   View Profile   Since : 25 Jun 2006 12:13:28 AM Close
tina,
John McArther's McArther Bible says the 'perfect' is neither the bible nor Jeus Christ. He is antipentecostalist. Still he doesn't use that verse to defend cessation.
You can't build a doctrine on the basis of gender used for a particular word. It lacks science of interpretation.
It is being said millions of times that the 'perfect'(1Cori 13) is the Cannon and the gifts are ceased. It is still a wrong interpretation. You need to find some other verse to defend the cessation. Good luck!
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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 26 Jun 2006 8:02:14 AM Close
Dear 'pc':

Please see the thread "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" in youth forum, and look for my posts (username: lemuelraj). I have conclusively proved there that the tongues have ceased, without using "canon argument."

Moses LemuelRaj

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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 1 Jul 2006 4:44:38 AM Close
Dear brethrens,
I'd request you to hear a wonderful sermon in the website: www.webtruth.org and go into the sub-head sermon. there are two sermons I hope you can hear: baptism in the Spirit and Speaking in tongues.
or you can directly copy and paste this adress:
http://www.webtruth.org/sermons.php
hope you enjoy it.
God bless u,
Tinka
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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 11 Aug 2006 4:54:26 AM Close
Dear brethrens,
Let us look at the verses once again.
1Corn 13:9-“For we know in part, and we prophesy in part”
10-“But when that which is perfect is come then that which is in part shall be done away.
Note from my Study Bible:
13:9,10- “That which is perfect” is best understood in light of 1Corn 2:6, in the sense of “mature” (cf. also Col 3:14; Heb 6:1). It is a neuter in the Greek and could refer to the completeness or fullness of Scripture, not to the coming of Christ. “Then that which is in part shall be done away”: The body, growing up as a perfect man (cf. Eph. 4:13), will eventually outgrow the need for certain things associated with immaturity, as verse 11 will show.
1Corn 13:11-“When I was a child, I spake as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.”
Note from my Study Bible:
Paul’s use of “spake, understood” and “thought” seems to correspond respectively to “tongue”, “prophecy”, and “knowledge”. The point of this passage is to explain that partial revelation via tongues, and so forth, will cease when the full revelation of God in Scripture is completed. This occurred by the end of the apostolic age when the New Testament was completed.
1Corn 13:12-“For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Note from my Study Bible:
13:12- ‘now we see through a glass, darkly’ (lit., “Now we see through a mirror in a riddle”, that is indistinctly or dimly): Paul seems to be alluding to the incident in Number 12:8. On another occasion Paul says the writings were an enigma compared to the revelations contained in the gospel(cf. 2Corn 3:12,13)
Well I quoted directly from what my Bible says, as I'm lesser than all of you in all ways. So I wanted to quote someone who have better understanding and not "incapable" or "unsuitable" as I am. I'll write more about what I studied in my next post.
Thanks for bearing with me.
God bless u
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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 11 Aug 2006 5:29:07 AM Close
Dear all,
check out this site
http://www.earnestlycontending.com/ewministries/jerry/1cor13.html
thanks.
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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 11 Aug 2006 5:37:29 AM Close
John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

1 Corinthians 13:10

But when that which is perfect is come…
When perfect knowledge of God, of Christ, and of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven shall take place; which will not in this life, but in that which is to come. So the Jews say F18 that at the resurrection, upon the reunion of the soul and body,


``the children of men shall attain to (hmylv hed) , "perfect knowledge";''

which is what the apostle refers to here:
and then that which is in part, shall be done away:
the imperfection of knowledge shall be removed; the imperfect manner of communicating knowledge, and of receiving and acquiring it, will cease: thus the apostle explains what he means by the cessation and failing of knowledge, and prophecy; not that knowledge itself will be no more, and a state of ignorance and darkness succeed; but imperfect knowledge will vanish away, or rather will be perfected, or be swallowed up in perfect knowledge; the imperfection of it will disappear; and it will be no more taught and received in part; the whole of truth will be clearly known.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FOOTNOTES:

F18 Midrash Haneelam in Zohar in Gen. fol. 69. 1.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 11 Aug 2006 5:57:12 AM Close
http://www.bible.ca/ef/expository-1-corinthians-13.htm
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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 11 Aug 2006 6:01:51 AM Close
http://www.bible.ca/tongues-ceased-perfect-come-intro.htm
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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 11 Aug 2006 6:03:06 AM Close
http://www.bible.ca/tongues-ceased-perfect-come-1Cor13-8-13.htm
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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 11 Aug 2006 6:04:21 AM Close
http://www.bible.ca/tongues-ceased-pentecostal-arguments-refuted.htm
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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 11 Aug 2006 6:05:48 AM Close
http://www.ovrlnd.com/FalseDoctrine/1cor13.8_13.html
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Reply by : sim1   View Profile   Since : 12 Aug 2006 11:48:38 PM Close
Dear Sis

why dont you put this effort in spreading the gospel instead of posting of this kind web address ,all of as are well aware of tongues ok, so better to put effort on some fruitful topics , so that we all may be blessed ,
your above postings shows lack of maturity in you , its like you want to prove some one wrong .

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 14 Aug 2006 12:31:18 AM Close
It is necessary to expose errors.

Sister Tinka did a good work, continue to do prayerfully,
God Bless You.

This web is intended to discuss this type of spiritual matters with mutual respect and brotherly love.

Exposing Error: Is It Worthwhile? Please visit the following thread.
http://www.ovrlnd.com/Apologetics/exposingerror.html

A Brother In Christ.

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Reply by : sim1   View Profile   Since : 14 Aug 2006 6:47:55 AM Close
Dear Br in christ

we have discussed this topic in the past also so many times ok

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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 16 Aug 2006 9:31:39 AM Close
Dear bro sm1,
among beleivers I dont think its fruitful spreading the gospel, since its assumed that we are saved by His grace. I try to do that by God's help and strength among un-beleivers. Here I try to learn stuffs and if I've learnt something, I try to share that with my dear fellow brethrens.
Inspite of repeated discussions on this topic, I didnt see much progress, as all those who had discussed the issue, prior to this, still retained the same mentality. I had tries to justify my faith which I had promised to do when I learnt a bit more. Now I'm sure of what I had learnt of cesation of tongues. So I wanned to tell those who were against this idea.
Well indeed my writing may be immature, according to my age, but I hope and pray that I can mature like you guys soon.
Thanks bro "sambudhanoor" for your encouragement and love. I really appreciate it.
Love ya in Christ Jesus,
Tinka
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Reply by : sim1   View Profile   Since : 16 Aug 2006 10:57:16 PM Close
Dear Sis tinka

Does this topic helped you to increase ur faith i dont know, look if i putany question now again the same old discussion will start so its better not to ask ,so its better to leave here

kind rgds

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Reply by : hellisreal   View Profile   Since : 8 Sep 2006 11:07:02 PM Close
I see that we assumed a lot of stuff here. How do we infer that tongues were only needed in the earlier part of new testament. Were in the bible does it say that the future believers will not need to speak in tongues or will not need to prophesy. Prophesy is used to convict the sinner as mentioned in NT. The gift of Tongues is for our personal edification and our spirit speaks to God mystries as mentioned in NT.

These and many other spiritual gifts are the works of the Holy Spirit. Once rapture takes place Holy Spirit's gift will not operate as the church is nomore here. That when these gifts are going to cease and Love [as defined in bible] is what remains amoung the left out believers.

1CO 14:5 I would that ye all[all believers not of certain generation] spake with TONGUES, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with TONGUES, except he interpret, that the church [common term then and now] may receive edifying.

I can eliminate certain commandments in the word of God saying these were ment for believer of that period then we will find ourself breaking all of the commandments in the bible. because Paul is saying in 1CO 14:5 'I would that ye all spake with TONGUES,' he is not saying, 'I think that ye all.....'

Moreover, 1CO 14:22 Wherefore TONGUES are for a sign, not to them that believe, BUT TO THEM THAT BELIEVE NOT: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Don't we have non-believers around us now? Or was this special treatment ment for non-believers of that time.

Believe me Satan uses the same old tricks, infact his same old proven tricks even now to mislead believers because it works pretty well even now and might as well work in the future.

And, MR 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new TONGUES;

When the Word Of God says here In my Name it refers to the name of Jesus Christ, has his name changed now.....

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Reply by : hellisreal   View Profile   Since : 8 Sep 2006 11:11:27 PM Close
I see that we assumed a lot of stuff here. How do we infer that tongues were only needed in the earlier part of new testament. Were in the bible does it say that the future believers will not need to speak in tongues or will not need to prophesy. Prophesy is used to convict the sinner as mentioned in NT. The gift of Tongues is for our personal edification and our spirit speaks to God mystries as mentioned in NT.

These and many other spiritual gifts are the works of the Holy Spirit. Once rapture takes place Holy Spirit's gift will not operate as the church is nomore here. That when these gifts are going to cease and Love [as defined in bible] is what remains amoung the left out believers.

1CO 14:5 I would that ye all[all believers not of certain generation] spake with TONGUES, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with TONGUES, except he interpret, that the church [common term then and now] may receive edifying.

I can eliminate certain commandments in the word of God saying these were ment for believer of that period then we will find ourself breaking all of the commandments in the bible. because Paul is saying in 1CO 14:5 'I would that ye all spake with TONGUES,' he is not saying, 'I think that ye all.....'

Moreover, 1CO 14:22 Wherefore TONGUES are for a sign, not to them that believe, BUT TO THEM THAT BELIEVE NOT: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Don't we have non-believers around us now? Or was this special treatment ment for non-believers of that time.

Believe me Satan uses the same old tricks, infact his same old proven tricks even now to mislead believers because it works pretty well even now and might as well work in the future.

And, MR 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new TONGUES;

When the Word Of God says here In my Name it refers to the name of Jesus Christ, has his name changed now.....

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Reply by : hellisreal   View Profile   Since : 8 Sep 2006 11:32:26 PM Close
[contd] doesn't the scripture say Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow?

Quote <Tongues is a de facto denial of the sufficiency of scripture> the writer has failed to understand the difference between the INSPIRED WORD OF GOD and the Purpose of tongues. Bible was not written thru the gift of Tongues.

We need to understand that the world today is in a farmore worse condition than it was at any point in history.

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This scripture indicates that in the last days sin and rebellion will be at its peak, [masterminded by satan as he know his days are few] so do you think we need less of God's power, mercy, grace and the gifts of Holy Spirit than in the time of the early believers?

Dear Brothers and Sisters i have been greatly blessed by our discussions and i hope everybody puts forth their views with a healthy attitude of building each other up in love.

bye.

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