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Keralabrethren.net: Youth Forum: Shall men pray with hands lifted up

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# 00074 :  Shall men pray with hands lifted up
Dear all, "Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension". -NASB -1timo.2-5 "So wherever you assemble, I want men to pray with holy hands lifted up to God, free from anger and controversy" -NLT the above scriptures encourages a believer(men) to lift his hands and pray. But i have seen in many assemblies, due to some reason/teachings/traditions, what ever happens, they will never lift their hands when pray. Some says its not holy hands, thatwhy. but they also says that we are royal priesthood and saints. if God consider us as saints,and rightous, what is preventing/restricting us from doing this. tradition or teachings? Paul says about this us something which is good and encouragable and ofcourse will be pleasing to God. Then why can't we practice it. when paul writes to timothy he is not saying 'all perfect men should lift their hands'... if so we can never do this on earth. With all our insuffecies, GOd consider us as holy people and saints...(political followers dont have any shame to lift their hand for their party..why should we feel shame to lift our hands for our redeemer when bible encourage us to do this while praying)So shall we start practice this for the Glory of our Lord? Welcoming your suggestions..
Post by : jbdubai  View Profile    since : 29 Jun 2005


Reply by : jotoms   View Profile   Since : 2 Jul 2005 8:40:18 AM Close
dear brother

I agree with your opinion, its sad that eventhough bible encourage to do this, some denominations are indifferent to this.
as you said we should not feel shyness or any reluctancy to pray with hands lifted up.

God bless you

Jotoms

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Reply by : terry_martin   View Profile   Since : 3 Jul 2005 7:07:10 AM Close
Dear Brethren,
Prayer is first to be understood by a Child of God before he/she gets deeper into the different ways/methods he/she can pray.
One of the ways/method which can be used is "lifting up HOLY hands". Its good for all who have a very clear knowledge and conscience that their hands are indeed HOLY in all aspects to Lift them and pray and I dont think anyone would object to it. But asking everyone to do so whenever we all get together to pray is not called for since thats not what the scripture teaches as the one and only way/method to pray.
So lets not lose our emotions of sadness nor feel discouraged in this aspect of prayer but lets use this mighty weapon of prayer to strenghten ourselves and be saddened by the hardening hearts around us and help the sin burdened people of this world find the Saviour(the sin bearer).
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Reply by : thomasj   View Profile   Since : 11 Jul 2005 8:32:08 AM Close
Dear brothers
when i see jbdubai's subject, i really expected a reply like terry's which says
"Its good for all who have a very clear knowledge and conscience that their hands are indeed HOLY in all aspects to Lift them and pray and I dont think anyone would object to it".
as jbdubai said, i dont think, on earth, someone will be able say that his hands are 100 % holy in all aspects. does that mean that no one can or no one should ever lift hands while praying?..no. Paul, while writing this, knows the weakness of flesh and failures in practical life. still he encourages men to do this (not compulsory but as something good and encouragable). We all are purchased by the precious blood of Jesus and he consider us as saints and holy people, even though we have many short comings. so one should not hesitate to lift his hands (if he wish) while praying. But unfortunately some people who never want lift their hands for God, finds some excuses to avoid doing this and will say 'hands are not holy' (even though the whole person is holy in God's sight).So i also believe, as paul said, its good for men to lift their hands while praying(not compulsory / not by force / and not as a practice to follow all the time by all).
I really doubt those who never lift their hands for God, whether they are under the bondage of some traditions or shyness and ofcourse, they can find many reasons not to do this. But when someone sincerely doing what paul said, really, it will be pleasing to God and he will enjoy its outcome. let us not look for reasons to abstain from positive things like this, where bible is so clear. one more thing to be noted is, it is not a commandment, & not something which is to be done by forcing the people, but sincerely from heart, otherwise it will be just another dead work. may the god encourage & give us a desire to do it voluntarly for the glory of God.
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Reply by : jotoms   View Profile   Since : 6 Aug 2005 12:36:00 AM Close
Hello Brothers
Nobody seems interested to write on this topic!!!!So strange. I would like to hear different views on this(so that i myself can correct or follow this). it will help everyone to know the truth and experience freedom. Atleast, this is a subject from the word of God, and a clear verse by paul. so pls contribute and let us have clarity on this subject too. I also invite senior brothers to share their views on this verse. let us not abstain from writing because most of brethren assemblies are not doing like this.
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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 8 Aug 2005 8:28:03 AM Close
Dear 'jbdubai,' and 'jotoms,'

It is good to quote scriptures and cox others to respond on subjects like this. Paul wrote those verses not using an assumed name or a shortened name. He identified himself clearly to the one to whom he wrote that letter. Why can't you do so, before asking others to explain certain things while accusing them of not doing it.

On 29 June 2005, 'jbdubai' wrote, "(political followers dont have any shame to lift their hand for their party..why should we feel shame to lift our hands for our redeemer when bible encourage us to do this while praying)So shall we start practice this for the Glory of our Lord?" The political followers of a party also identify themselves using their own names. That is, without the use of assumed names. I will answer, if both of you will follow the political followers, at least.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : jbdubai   View Profile   Since : 9 Aug 2005 2:40:38 AM Close
Dear All,
I have seen the reply of 'GeorgePKoshy' asking to disclose the actual name inorder to get his comments. In this discussion forum, i have found almost all of the people are not disclosing their actual name and details. Still depending on the type of subject, people contributes their opinion. Even GeorgePKoshy had given comments on various subjects where the person's actual name is not disclosed. it is strange to insist that ONLY for this particular topic, the person's actual name is needed, ( he has already commented to various topics where this condition is not fulfilled !!!!!)
Here the important issue is not the person's actual name or details but the subject matter. If someone is interested to share their comment for the subject, it is highly appreciated. on the other hand, if the most important part is 'actual name' or correct details i dont think we can comment to most of the topics here, because the actual name is not disclosed. Letus focus on the subject, not on the person.

Let me clarify one more thing. here the motive is NOT TO ACCUSE any gathering or to FORCE someone to do something (that is impossible, people will find their own good reasons) but to know why some are not positive towards this part of scripture, just to know the reason. thats all.
i said about political followers, not as a role model for believers but just show their boldness for the things they stand.

If anybody has the an answer to this topic of discussion, please contribute..no need of your acutal name or details..
thanks

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Reply by : tvarghese   View Profile   Since : 18 Aug 2005 1:30:54 AM Close

Dear Bro.Koshy
I appreciate u. But your idea will help only to divert the subject. Let me ask you what is the reason for you to ask full names - we are here to discuss various subjects not to verify the beauty of the names. Have u kept any criterion of answering to questions asked by specific names?

Dear brothers in Christ - kindly go ahead, i would like to know more about the subject.

Thanks and regards
Tvarghese

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 18 Aug 2005 7:56:55 AM Close
Dear Tvarghese,

On 29 June 2005 'jbdubai' wrote, "With all our insuffecies, GOd consider us as holy people and saints...(political followers dont have any shame to lift their hand for their party..why should we feel shame to lift our hands for our redeemer when bible encourage us to do this while praying)So shall we start practice this for the Glory of our Lord?"

There he/she was using the practice of political operatives of political parties to cox and intimidate others to contribute. I was simply asking 'jbdubai' to follow the practice of those political operatives of providing full and complete name to their audience. This I asked only because he was using the political operatives to make others to answer his question of interest.

(I am not interested to prolong this discussion unless 'jbdubai' gives his name.)

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : jbdubai   View Profile   Since : 20 Aug 2005 2:44:44 AM Close
Dear All,
(Tvarghese,thanks for your interest in this subject. I appreciate it)
like Tvarghese, i am also eager to know others view on this, based on bible; even though i personally asked many people(in brothren assembly where i am attending), nobody could give a satisfactory answer to this subject, they just avoided me by saying some lame excuses; thats why i put this before this forum.

But surprisingly, some 'special conditions' for aswering (only for this topic)get into this discussion. Still i dont know the reason behind that. if i say my real name is Varghese or Thomas or Mathew or Philip or George, HOW CAN ONE MAKE SURE THAT IT IS THE REAL NAME???????? and WHAT DIFFERENCE IT MAKES to this subject????
IF THIS IS THE CONDITION/ATTITUDE, HOW CAN WE SHARE OUR OPINION TO VARIOUS TOPICS IN THIS FORUM ????
it is so unfortunate to see that ther 'subject' is distracted by this kind of senseless/unnecessary conditions.
in my second answer, i VERY CLEARLY mentioned about what i meant by the example of political supporters. ..[ i have personally seen that SOME believers have little shame or reluctuancy when it comes to spiritual matters. eg.to identify themselves as believers before unbelievers or to witness for God in public..] and i was trying to show political supporter's courage and boldness for the things they stand for even though they stand for 'vanishing things' . hope what i mean is clear....

it is unfortunate to see instead of sharing their opinion, people are 'catching each letter' to find mistakes/loopholes and discourage this subject.(Why someone should fear/discourage this subject..i wonder about the motive behind it!!!!)

I encourage all who are interested in this subject, pls contribute. Not to Win over someone, not to criticise, but to have better clarity over it. LET US PUT 'SUBJECT' AS OUR FOCUS AND NOT THE 'PERSON'.
"Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension". -NASB -1timo.2-5
Welcoming your views... thanks

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Reply by : jotoms   View Profile   Since : 20 Aug 2005 6:14:34 AM Close
Dear jbdubai
ofcourse, it is an open discussion forum and original name is not essential; your questions are reasonable. dont feel bad just because one person did not respond or put some condition. there may be many interested people.
Hope soon you will get the right answer for which you have been looking for.
Personally i think it is good to do it. There is nothing wrong in doing it if it is a sincere reflection of our love for God from the bottom of heart. (i couldnt find anything that can stop you from follwoing this in the Bible)
i personally prefer to follow this eventhough i havent seen this practice in our gathering. I believe, its your personal freedom before God, God's word support you too.
In this case if you think God's word is clear, why are you waiting for many people's opinion, . people may have different views, but if you think God's word encourages you in this regard and it glorifies his name...do it with all heart.
Since brothern gatherings are seldom following this, this forum may not give you a positive answer. what i mentioned above is my personal suggestion.
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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 20 Aug 2005 5:32:52 PM Close
It is better to post your opinion with your real name.(meaning no mask). We are discussing from the bible. Those people who get no chance to say their thoughts in their church or in public has the oppertunity to do so. That is my case. I have no chance. I said one time. All the church members in one accord said sit down. So this is my place to say something. I do with my e-mail.

Lifting hands while you pray.- It is an important subject. People can do only with Holy Spirit. Not by force.

There is a song in english.

COME, BLESS THE LORD.
HOLY SERVANTS OF THE LORD
WHO STAND BY FAITH
IN THE HOUSE OF THE LORD.
WE LIFT UP OUR HANDS
IN THE HOLY PLACE
AND BLESS THE LORD.

Believe it or not. That is it.

Love in Christ.

Sunila.

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Reply by : jbdubai   View Profile   Since : 21 Aug 2005 1:01:49 AM Close
Thanks Sunila for your suggestion and interest in this subject.
when we look in this forum, in most cases the real names are not given. thats why i used my first letters and i am writing from Dubai. anyway i believe whether the writer is A, B or x, y, it does not make any difference to the subject. and even if someone gives a name eg. mathew, we can just assume that it is real name. it may be or may not be. i think name does not add any extra value to the subject.----
like you, i also believe that it is an important subject for discussion.because it is a verse from bible by paul and as you mentioned many english songs has got such lines. but i am witnessing in every gathering, people singing 'i lift up my hands un to thy name' and strictly keeping their hands in their pocket.
After noticing this verse, i began to do this, i was 'noted' by many and got mixed response. ofcourse when someone does something against the existing system/practice, such responeses are normal. i have found more people, esp. youngsters are giving a positive response. but they are shy and relectuant, because it was not a practice in the assembly and people notices such a guy who do this 'strange thing'[someone commented tht - this guy got 'pentecostal spirit'. but i believe we should respect and obey God's word more and not the systems/practices of people. i am so sorry for the people who could not lift their hand for God even after many years of christian life, because they are under the influence of man made practices/customs (when Gods word is clear in this regard).
As you said, may Holyspirit lead many to think of this word and respond to it from their heart(and not mechanically or by force).
"Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension". -NASB -1timo.2-5 - Amen
Glory to his name.
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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 21 Aug 2005 3:43:40 PM Close
jbdubai,

Today in our church a pastor (I am not telling you his name) came and in his speech he said there are two type of worshippers ( said as a joke).
1. Saul's daughter Michal's type.
2. King David's type.

Michal type look through the window and watch who is LIFTING THEIR HANDS, clapping, singing and dancing.
She is the daughter of Saul who was bowdown in front of God on his way.

King David type say 2 Samuel 6:21,22

Sunila.

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Reply by : jbdubai   View Profile   Since : 22 Aug 2005 8:28:10 AM Close
Sunila
as you said,2 types of worshippers exist even now. i have noticed the versus you referred and David's attitude really encouraged me-
2 sam 6.16
"Then it happened {as} the ark of the LORD came into the city of David that Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and SHE DESPISED HIM IN HER HEART.
So David said to Michal, "{It was} before the LORD, who chose me above your father and above all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel; therefore I WILL CELEBRATE BEFORE THE LORD. And I will be even more UNDIGNIFIED than this, and will be HUMBLE in my own sight"

it is true that when we try to obey something which bible encourages, by overtaking the 'man made practices', people may despise /discourage but it will be pleasing to the God who gave his word, who sees our heart and motive.

even though we feel undignified and humble in people's sight, God honors the one who honors his word sincerely.

"Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension". -NASB -1timo.2-5
may this open the eyes of many who are bound by the 'practices/customs', that they may respond honestly from the heart for the glory of God.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 22 Aug 2005 9:08:38 AM Close
Dear 'sunilajoseph@aol.com,'

Am I right to understand that David was worshipping God on the street, while the ark was brought to Jerusalem? At the same time Michal, David's wife, worshipping while in the palace of the king. How did you get this idea of worship, here? (As you are referring this idea of worship to a visiting pastor, you may ask this question to him before answering.) This teaching is a distortion of historical fact.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : bgeorge   View Profile   Since : 22 Aug 2005 2:20:31 PM Close
Dear jbdubai,

I also don't understand why people seem to intentionally divert from this topic.

Apostle Paul is talking to timothy, a newly apointed bishop of the church in Ephesus, though he was young. 2 Timothy chapter 2 is a reiteration or repetion of what Paul sees how worship in a church should be held.

In 2 Timothy he says that "he wants", he does not just urge or ask, he says "he wants" us to lift our holy hands in prayer without anger or disputing. This seems like a firm instruction and not just a suggestion.

So why don't us Kerala Brethren teach it? Because we seem to step into Pentecostal territory, which is feared by most older Brethren. In malayalam Brethren is translated as "seperated people", so to ask to perform a pentecostal act seems to be diverting from our own definition of ourselves.

I find it funny that many people argue that this verse in timothy can be performed by the believers own discretion, however a few verses down in 2 timothy 2 it says in v 11 & 12, "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." As you know these verses are held to the highest regard by our KB and strictly taught. So why ignore the previous verses and emphasize this verse? Why this hypocricy?

I believe our forefathers set out to create a non-denominational people, who regarded themselves as just brethren, people who show brotherly love and follow the bible. However their sons and descendents after them have capatalized the "B" and we have become like any other denomiation with our tradtions and zeal.

I have always stuggled with this verse and wanted to lift my hands in prayer but I was afraid to because of what people may think about me. I still don't have the courage to do it but hopefully people like you and many others may furthur the disscussion and find God's truth than try to divert to tradtion, as many here do.

I hope God will enlighten you through his scripture in the days to come.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 22 Aug 2005 8:44:28 PM Close
jbdubai,

You wrote what I wrote in my mind.

gpk,

You uderstood me correctly. I meant David worshipped God in the street.

That pastor said as a joke. We all laughed. He was saying (actually he meant) there are people in the church who look around. He didn't say Michal worshipped in the palace. He meant there are people like Michal in the church. He didn't say who it is and/or they are coming not to worship. We didn't had a fight for that.

I hope you understood that pastor correctly.

Love in Christ,

Sunila.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 22 Aug 2005 8:58:59 PM Close
bgeorge,

Kb is not teaching that you should not lift your hands while you pray. It is this, even if we have the inspiration to do it, we are not doing it, like you. You must know how to co-operate with holy spirit. Kb is strictly concentrating in teaching word of God. That is what other people say. (You don't believe it, if I say who are the other people).

Who said women are silent. They have every oppertunity to spread the word of God in kb. Hospital visiting ministry etc. (not with a bank account). Ladies do that. They have the opertunity to speak in ladies meeting. Neighboring children. Teachers at school. Nurses at work etc.

Bible and kb says women should be silent in Sunday meeting. Don't come to teach men on Sunday. Nobody is againt singing songs during sunday meeting, or teaching sunday school students.

It is you who was shy.

Love in Christ,

Sunila.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 22 Aug 2005 11:29:33 PM Close
Dear bgeorge / jbdubai:

I will try (in the will of the Lord) to post some thoughts in regard to your questions. I plan to post that under a different title in the 'General Discussion' forum. Somehow I feel more comfortable to be in the general forum.

The title could be 'WHY DO WE DO WHAT WE DO?'or something in that order. It might be 2-3 days before I could post.

In Christ,

Tom J (tomj3162000@yahoo.com)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 Aug 2005 8:30:20 AM Close
Dear 'sunilajoseph@aol.com,'

Again you are wrong in your assumption that David worshipped his God in the street. He offered sacrifices only after the ark was placed in the tent that he prepared for it. When the ark was being brought in, while it was being carried on the shoulders of the children of Aaron or the Levites, David was not worshipping. He rejoiced in bringing the ark to Jerusalem. Michal did not worship God in the palace. You are being mislead by your pastor the same way as done by Samson Henry.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : bgeorge   View Profile   Since : 23 Aug 2005 9:54:00 AM Close
sunilajoseph@aol.com,

I think you misunderstood me, I meant all those verses deals with olderly sunday worship, which Timothy 2 addresses. You are correct that women are allowed to teach in meetings set for them that are outside the worship meeting. I was pointing out that though we do teach that women must be silent, in that they must not give instruction or preach, in sunday worship, we don't teach that me should lift their holy hands in prayer. Which I think is hypocracy on our parts.

You are also right in saying we must co-operate with the holy spirit in worship but how can this be done if the mind is not willing? When we discourage certain teachings knowingly or unknowingly, we are hindering our worship. One thing we have to remember was Paul did not suggest we should lift our hands in prayer, it said he wants us to do it. So are we not wrong in not teaching this principle?

sunila, thanks you for your response and I think you have encouraged me to lift up my hand in prayer this sunday at my church. Maybe I can help people understand that it is something the scriptures tell us to do. Thanks.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 23 Aug 2005 8:53:52 PM Close
gpk and bgeorge,

I don't know how you two were taught in kb churches.

I said what I learned and follow. gpk must read bible in a quiet place. That I suggest. Look for what bible say. Not what sunilajoseph or somebody else said.

Love in Christ,

Sunila.

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Reply by : jbdubai   View Profile   Since : 24 Aug 2005 1:54:33 AM Close
Dear bgeorge
your writings are in " "
i agree with you for -"this seems like a firm instruction and not just a suggestion. so why dont us KB teach it" - you know, we KB's do the "surgery" of versus and even checks greek, aramic and other languages when it comes to certain versus. I dont know how they omitted it!.

Till now i never heared a preaching or a word of enouragement from any brethern preacher regarding this subject/verse. since petecostal people are doing this, we think that it is exclusively for them and we should not do it. if somone do "he is with pentecost spirit" - whether we accept or not, these attitudes exists amoung us, i think,thats why we never responded to it.Pls note it was not written for any denomination but for all God's children.

As you wrote "I have always stuggled with this verse and wanted to lift my hands in prayer but I was afraid to because of what people may think about me. I still don't have the courage to do it but hopefully people like you and many others may furthur the disscussion and find God's truth than try to divert to tradtion, as many here do".

I also had the same problem(and many in my church too), it just shows that how much we are under the influence of our 'practices', let us ask god for the courage to honor his word. forget what people think, do what bible says. just remember'if you try to please men, you may not be able to honor God's word"

Sunila,
you wrote "Kb is not teaching that you should not lift your hands while you pray. ...... You must know how to co-operate with holy spirit. Kb is strictly concentrating in teaching word of God".
ok, then how come, nobody positively responed to this word in all this years??
you also wrote" KB strictly concentrating in teaching word" i agree but then why it is happend amoung us?
i think we need accept that when it comes to certain things like this one, we honor our 'practices' than word of God!!!.


Dear tomj
pls come with specific points on the subject "WHY DO WE DO WHAT WE DO"

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 24 Aug 2005 7:27:24 AM Close
jbdubai and bgeorge,

I said kb churches are teaching bible very strictly. bgeorge said we DON'T teach that men SHOULD lift their holy hands in prayer. This is the first time that I hear about that teaching.
Again he asked how can we co-operate with HS if the mind is not willing. I submitt or surrender myself to HS when it happens. There is a book 'GOING DEEPER WITH HS' by Benny Hinn. to order call 1-800-433-1900 or go to web site: www.bennyhinn.org That teaches how to co-operate with HS.

It is not the elders who tell the youngersters (or other members) to lift up their hands. It should be done by the willingness, eagerness to stand in the presence of the Lord, submission, obedience and with prayer. People may say it is a pentacostal spirit. It is true. We do not have to be ashamed of that. There were students in India nick named 'UPADESI' by the fellow students. That is it. We have to stand with a prayerfull attitude.

Love in christ,

sunila.

I will explain gpk later.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 24 Aug 2005 8:19:58 AM Close
Dear 'sunilajoseph@aol.com,'

I am not a 'kb.' I was taught from the beginning that I should be like Bereans. What was taught by your pastors and people in the church are wrong according to the scriptures, the word of God. I say this from your postings on this forum. You do bend the scriptures to suit your fancy and make it a doctrine. It was shown in the instances related to Rebecca, Exodus 32-33, and Ezekiel 16.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 24 Aug 2005 8:25:27 AM Close
Those who say that the Christains generally called as "Brethren" do not raise their holy hands while praying is not correct, historically. Those who accuse them of not raising the holy hands in praying did not see Kochumathachan Upadesi, Y. Ezekiel,... Those giants among the saints did so not as Pat Robertson do.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : joyboy   View Profile   Since : 24 Aug 2005 9:21:27 AM Close
Oh no, not Benny Hinn again.
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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 24 Aug 2005 9:10:34 PM Close
gpk,
I want to know who you are. I want to hear your testimony. Seems like not brethren or pentacostal. WHO ARE YOU? WHICH CHURCH YOU ATTEND? OR STAYING HOME DOING BIBLE STUDY?

David worshipped God-
2 samuel 6:14 david danced before the LORD WITH ALL HIS MIGHT;(i am sure it was not a folk dance or folk song)
2 samuel 6;16 king david leaping and dancing BEFORE THE LORD.6:17 Then they placed the ark inside the tabernacle. david offered burned offering and peace offering before God.

Dancing with all his might and presenting burned offering and peace offering are different way of worshipping Him. In NT life we can see it as dancing filled with HS(because I experience it) and saying praises to the lord in the church. Don't tell me that God's spirit was not on HIS men in OT. OT prophets, David, Saul etc are few examples.

I am not continuing teaching you. I know you write pages about one subject. But because of curiosity, what is your spiritual background. Seems like you don't believe anybody. Hope we see when HE comes.

Love in Christ,

Sunila.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 25 Aug 2005 2:44:45 PM Close
Dear 'sunilajoseph!aol.com,' (Part-1/2)

You wanted to know about me: I am a Christian as in Acts 11:26 and James 2:7.

You also wrote, ”Seems like you don’t believe anybody.” You are wrong, I do believe in my Lord Jesus Christ as my personal Savior, Lord, and God.

Now about dancing and worshipping: You cited David, Saul, etc. as examples of those who worshipped. I wonder why you did not include others like Abraham, in that list. How did you come to the conclusion that David was worshipping God, when he was dancing? You just assert your preferred teaching without any explanation. In 2 Samuel 6:14 and 16 the word translated as “Danced” is the Hebrew word KARAR, meaning ‘move around,’ therefore translated as ‘danced.’ These are the only two places this Hebrew word appears in the OT. Anyone who makes this to teach that David was worshipping God by dancing is introducing false teaching into the community of believers. If you say that you are not teaching, then you are blindly following someone who teaches it. May be your visiting pastor.

The Hebrew word for ‘worship’ is SHACHAH, meaning ‘to bow self down.’ This bowing could be before God, a king, or a demon like Baal. Please note: The priests of Baal leaped upon the altar of Baal (1 Kings 18). Back to the subject: The Hebrew word SHACHAH appears about 172 times in OT in connection with worship of man, not limited to God only. One must bow down by himself or herself to call it worship.

(To be cont.)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 25 Aug 2005 2:52:06 PM Close
Dear 'sunilajoseph!aol.com,' (Part-2/2)

In 2 Samuel 6:14, 16, David danced before the Lord before it was placed in the tent that he prepared for the ark. After placing the ark in the tent, David offered sacrifices to God. We do not read anywhere in the OT that the children of Israel should worship God while the ark is in transition from one place to another. Also please read and find out yourself about the place of worship, while the Tabernacle was functioning: 1 Samuel 1:3, 19, 28; 15:25, 31, 2 Samuel 12:20. After reading your postings in the past, I am sure that you will ignore the definite statements from the scriptures on this matter, because what was written by Samson Henry and the joke of a visiting pastor are more authoritative.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : jbdubai   View Profile   Since : 27 Aug 2005 6:30:09 AM Close

gpk

Further to your post on 24 aug-"Those who say that the Christains generally called as "Brethren" do not raise their holy hands while praying is not correct, historically. Those who accuse them of not raising the holy hands in praying did not see Kochumathachan Upadesi, Y. Ezekiel,... Those giants among the saints did so not as Pat Robertson do".

this quote itself says that very very very few believers did it.(we can count them by numbers and even names we specifically remember-i.e. their 'practice' were noticed but the rest of the KBs ignored it,like today).

what about the other multitude of KBs.. have they ever noticed this verse? i attended many KB assemblies gathereings and in gulf also. i never seen somebody responding to this verse.. (may be as you said 1 or 2 among lakh of bretherns). i never heared any preaching or word of encouragement for this.(word of discouragement i heard alot) So wht it proves..? shall we say, KBs are positive towards this verse? ? sorry, real life situations are giving opposite evidence whether we believe it or not.

i wish may God inspire and raise many like 'Kochumathachan Upadesi' who can honor this verse for the glory of God.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 27 Aug 2005 11:23:18 PM Close
Dear "jbdubai":

You wrote on Aug 24th "Dear tomj
pls come with specific points on the subject "WHY DO WE DO WHAT WE DO"

I posted some thoughts in the General forum under the same title few days ago. If you have some followup questions or comments, I'd greatly appreciate it. I did the posting in a hurry due to an out of town trip I had to make the following day.

Also, I plan to write on, 1Thess 5:26 "Greet all the brethren with a holy kiss" and other places like Rom 16:16, 1Cor:16:20, 2 Cor 13:12 & 1 Peter 5:14. All these places we same the same command.

Also on John 13:14 -15 "If I then, your Lord and Teacher have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. (15)For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you". The Lord Jesus commanded this - and are we doing it?

If you have observed anything that interest you or any comments, you are most welcomed to present those, so the discussion could be more profitable and mutually beneficial.

Regards,

Tom J

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 29 Aug 2005 1:10:01 AM Close
Dear jbdubai

If you have confidence, testimony amongst the people around you, and the Holy Spirit, prompt you, I believe you can raise the hands and pray, but the points mentioned in the scripture should be followed.

I could see that some evangelists, senior members of the assemblies lift up their hand and praying, I do not think any restriction in our (Brethren) midst. Evangelists Bro. MM Zacharia, Kottayam, Bro. P.S. Thampan, Bro. P.M. Georgekutty, Erumely, Late Bro. Pappachan Upadeshi, Kumbanad are some of them.

1Ti 2:8 Therefore, I desire that men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

1. Men should only do.
2. In Praying times.
3. Lifting Holy Hands.
4. Without wrath and doubting.

Following are some scriptural references:

Psa 141:2 Let my prayer be set forth before You as incense, and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.

Mal 1:9 And now entreat the face of God, that He favor us. This has been by your hands, will He lift up your faces, says Jehovah of Hosts?

Act 10:2 one devout and fearing God, with all his household, both doing many merciful deeds to the people, and praying continually to God.

Act 10:4 And he was gazing at him, and becoming terrified, he said, What is it, lord? And he said to him, Your prayers and your merciful deeds have come up for a memorial before God.

Mar 11:25 And when you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive it so that also your Father in Heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

Mat 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who despitefully use you and persecute you,

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Reply by : jbdubai   View Profile   Since : 29 Aug 2005 4:56:27 AM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor
further to your quote
"If you have confidence, testimony amongst the people around you, and the Holy Spirit, prompt you, I believe you can raise the hands and pray, but the points mentioned in the scripture should be followed" - i totally agree with you.
I also believe the 'confidence' means not the confidence which is based on our good works but when we stand in the position of God's children, we have that confidence before God because he is our father.

I didnt said lifting of holyhands is prohibited / banned among KBs. (go to any KBs and see how many are responding to this verse. i am sure very very very very few). but in practical we ignore or avoid or dont encourge it with various questions and confusing people by saying the 'are you sure your hands are holy!!??? we are holy people because of the completed work of jesus christ and not because of our daily deeds.

i also agree for
1. Men should only do.
2. In Praying times.
3. Lifting Holy Hands.(i already mentioned what holy hands means)
4. Without wrath and doubting. - this is our heart's attitude. whenever we pray we should not keep any grudge against anyone and heart should be pure before God. its a basic necessity.

Many never responded to this verse because they either ignore or feel shy or 'under the influence of some practices' or thinks their hands are not holy(because they think their daily deeds are what makes them holy,no the blood of jesus already made us holy.

*** Let me clarify again. this is not a MUST for God to hear our prayer, but a good practice to follow which glorifies God when we do sincerely & meaningfully ***.

this subject is also discussed in general forum under the heading 'why do we do what we do'

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 29 Aug 2005 9:22:02 AM Close
Dear 'kbdubai,'

I only mentioned two names. There are many I know who raise their hands while praying. As you and certain others are trying to make it a doctrine should remember that it is not a doctrine or a teaching in the New Testament. Those who make what is not a doctrine a doctrine, also find faults with believers remembering the Lord's death as He instituted, as resembling 'funeral services,' or 'being in a police station,' etc. We are asked to obey the scriptures and not to make doctrines.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 30 Aug 2005 4:21:36 AM Close
Dear jbdubai

As Bro.GPK mentioned this is not a doctrine; that may be the reason it is not taught or give more importance in our assemblies.

Also note Paul says "I desire". In Kerala some of our Appachans are also raising their hand and praying.

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Reply by : jbdubai   View Profile   Since : 30 Aug 2005 4:33:49 AM Close
George P.Koshy
just note a small thing, hope u can differentiate between the alphabets ‘j’ & ‘k’ -see 'jbdubai'& 'kbdubai';if you r addressing to me, pls address in the right way, i noted it more than 4 times(in general forum too)also if u read my post carefully u can avoid many misunderstandings.

your quote "As YOU and CERTAIN OTHERS are trying to make it a doctrine should remember that it is not a doctrine or a teaching in the New Testament"-(can u tell under which heading it comes? something like 'things not to be encourged' or similar?)

myself or anybody never forced it/ tried to make/add a new doctrine with this.
The point was when bible encourges this practice,why a vast majority of brethren r not responding to this? when it comes to many other versus, we go deep in to but here, why we ignore/avoid (even discourging) this?

Also very clearly mentioned that it is NOT A MUST for God to hear our prayer but as a GOOD PRACTICE FOR WHICH BIBLE ENCOURGE BELIEVERS.

Even after clarifying this much, still if anyone accuses as "making a new doctrine'- we r sorry for the way he understands & his attitude towards this verse is clear.
I fear, whether all who comes with new points under this forum will be treated us 'new doctrine makers' or me only??

U also wrote "find faults with believers remembering the Lord's death as He instituted, as resembling 'funeral services,' or 'being in a police station,'etc."- another misunderstanding.

WE DO REMEMEBER IT GREATEFULLY & what we pointed out is THE WAY MOST PEOPLE DO IT the result of which is reflected in most KB assemblies. it is not fault finding, it is the result of sensitivity and openess towards truth.(thousands of believers r sincere to accept the real condition).

still if someone is concerned & satisfied with'theory' only & closing eyes towards the reality & not intersted to see the outcomes/results which r clear in meetings & also accusing others who pointed out this situation- it is up to them.
it just shows their attitude towards reality.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Aug 2005 8:45:21 AM Close
Dear 'jbdubai,'

My apoligies, it was a keystroke error. I should have checked it and corrected. Please forgive me.

I am not understanding your posting, correctly. That may be one of the reasons for my misunderstanding of what your intentions are, or the meaining of your questions are. I cannot find many words in your postings in the languabe, English. There are a lot of "r" and "u" etc. in your postings. I don't know what they are. If you cannot write using English words, I am sorry to say, I cannot participate in a discussion. This is not an oral discussion. I hope you understand that.

As far as I understood from reading your postings, you are trying to compare the Lord's Supper to a funeral, or a culrpit in a police station. In this thread, you are trying to project an idea that there is a teaching against raising hands while praying among certain Christians. When pointed out that there are many who do so among against whom you made that accussation, you are showing the attitude, "Well! the rabbit I caught had three horns!!!"

Please write using proper English words to continue the discussion.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 30 Aug 2005 7:16:24 PM Close
Hello, Don't fight for freedom. All brethren who are unhappy with kb come to pentacostal assemblies.There you have freedom to worship in truth and spirit.

Sunila.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 1 Sep 2005 8:25:13 AM Close
I thank 'sunilajoseph@aol.com' for the invitation to come to pentacosatal church. Well! it may not be bad, except, there are a few unscriptural doctrines to follow. If I go and become a Pentecostal, our Lord will not say: "You had little strength, but kept my word."

On this thread, we are discussing about, "Shall men pray with hand lifted up." Let us read the verse from which this phrase is taken. In 1 Timothy 2:8 we read, "I will therefore that the men (Greek - ANER) pray in every place, lifting up pious hands, without wrath and reasoning." It is limited to men (male), because the Greek word ANER is for 'male' and does not include 'female.' There is another word that is inclussive of both male and female, and that is ANTHROPOSE. We see that in Verse 1, 4, and 5, but in verses 8 and 12 it is ANER.

The lifting up of hands by males is to be done without wrath or reasoning. Here we are reasoning why it is to be done. A direct violation of the scriptural requirement. It has to be done by no reason at all, if it is done. Punaloor Chackochan Upadesi is another one who did this according to the scriptures. This raising of pious hands is not a doctrine, because it is to be done without the reason of being a doctrine. Those who make it a requirement or doctrine are violating the scriptures.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : jbdubai   View Profile   Since : 3 Sep 2005 7:26:22 AM Close
George P. Koshy
Further to your post on 30 aug, let me clarify onething- i am not here to argue with you. I have noticed from my very first posting in this forum, about your approach towards my postings. so now i am not surprised.i just requested you to write my name properly, thats all.

your quote -"I cannot find many words in your postings in the languabe, English. There are a lot of "r" and "u" etc. in your postings. I don't know what they are."

i have used 'r' and 'u' in my posting just to save few charactor spaces. anybody can understand what it means. my english may not be good as yours, but when it comes to addressing a person, i always try to address with correct name.
also "I cannot find many words in your postings in the languabe, English" -you mean LANGUAGE..fine,i can understand it.

You also wrote "If you cannot write using English words, I am sorry to say, I cannot participate in a discussion" -. Fine,
I never invited anybody specifically, but by seeing the subject, many joined and shared their opinion.i believe what i am writing is understandable to many, thats why they are replying.

Also "As far as I understood from reading your postings, you are trying to compare the Lord's Supper to a funeral, or a culrpit in a police station".

I NEVER COMPARED LORDS SUPPER TO FUNERAL.WHAT I SAID IS,SOME PEOPLE IN KB ASSEMBLIES SEEMS SO SAD, GLOOMY & SORROWFUL WHEN THEY ARE IN WORSHIP MEETINGS, WHICH IS NOT NEEDED, WE ARE NOT IN A FUNERAL MEETING WHERE SUCH FACES ARE OK,BUT IN A GATHERING TO WORSHIP THE LIVING,VICTORIOUS GOD. Hope,atleast now you understood it in the right way.

Your quote "you are trying to project an idea that there is a teaching against raising hands while praying among certain Christians"-
what i said is about KBs where i myself attends. whether there is a teaching against or not, i never heard a message or word of encouragement in any KBs towards this verse which inspires believers to follow, but seen many discouraging opinions(both in direct & indirect ways).

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 6 Sep 2005 1:55:53 AM Close
When I spoke to some Pentecostal believers about security of salvation, they are saying salvation will loose.

1. As they believe salvation will loose, when they worship they do not know they are having the salvation or not, then what is the meaning of their worship?

2. Women are leading their all meetings, preaching, praying, raising hands, dancing, other tongue saying etc, where the scripture strictly forbidden the women speaking and be silent in churches.

One who violates the scriptural instructions and principles, then how the worship become in truth and spirit?

1Co 14:34 -35 Let your women be silent in the churches; for it is not permitted to them to speak, but to be in subjection, as the Law also says. And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame for a woman to speak in a church.

1Ti 2:11-12 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I do not allow a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man, but to be in silence.

Col 3:18 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as is becoming in the Lord.

Eph 5:22-24 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

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Reply by : jbdubai   View Profile   Since : 6 Sep 2005 4:13:00 AM Close
Sambudhanoor

i agree with your posting of 6 sept.

i have few years of experience with Pentecostal meetings, and what you said is correct.

there, women are leading many things, its true.
They dont have the assurance of eternity. what they say sounds like, 'we are doing our best, we may be in eternity etc'. no assurance of eternal salvation.

but i acknowldge that there many many good,sincere brothers/sisters who truely love God, who serves God, but they were taught in such a way to believe like this. i believe when we reach heaven, there wont be any barriers of denominations, all God's childern will be there with him for eternity.


Actually it is another subject, which we have to discuss in another thread. Let us keep focus on our subject.

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 6 Sep 2005 8:37:10 AM Close
jbdubai
My posting is in reply to "sunilajoseph@aol.com Since : 30 Aug 2005 7:16:24 PM"
I have so many close relatives in different pentocostals, I respect them, there are genuine believers. Their cooperation, love towards each other, spending time in prayers are commendable.
But their false doctrines cannot not be acceptable, some of them like ceylon pentecostals are saying, even believers baptism is required for salvation.

Yes, there will be no barriers in heaven, whoever bought by the blood of Jesus Christ should inherit the Heaven.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 6 Sep 2005 7:29:44 PM Close
sambudhanoor,

I am not agreeing with you in saying what the pentacostals teach. With myown ear and eye, I heard and saw IPC president from Kumband speaking about salvation in the church I attend in USA. He didn't say salavtion will loose. CLEARLY he said the same belief that I have in Brethren assembly. IPC assemblies are not teaching anything different than brethren. Women ARE NOT leading or dancing around during sunday meeting. We have meeting almost everyday in our churches. We get enough time to dance around. Many IPC pastors visit our church. They are not preaching any other gospel or beliefs than I learned from Brethren sunday school.

I have relatives in brethren, ipc, sharon fellowship, baptist church, going to english churches etc. In ipc i can see more scriptural than brethren or baptist church. The worst is brothren.

AFTER ALL, I DON'T KNOW ALL PENTACOSTAL DENOMINATION.

God bless,

Sunila.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 6 Sep 2005 7:37:47 PM Close
spelling error in above post.
---He didn't say salavtion will loose.

------------correction: He didn't say we loose salvation.

Love in Christ,

Sunila.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 7 Sep 2005 8:34:37 AM Close
Dear 'sunilajoseph@aol.com,'

During my visit to India in 1998, I was at the home of former president of IPC (I believe that he was the second president of IPC), late uncle P.M. Philip, Kottayam. When I arrived, he was meeting with another IPC Pastor. As he was hinted that uncle would like to spend some time with me, the IPC Pastor said he has one more question. It was, "The Brethren have a doctrine about eternal salvation. They say that one will not lose his/her salvation. In IPC we don't accept it and I am writing a book against that Brethren teaching. Am I right?" (This was what he said in Malayalam.) Looking at me, uncle evaded that question and asked him to publish his book. IPC, do propagate, at least certain pastors, such unscriptural teachings that question the soveriegnity of God and the efficacy of eternal salvation.

Let me also state that in 1964-65 there were a series of refutation of the false teaching of the teperory salvation (The doctrine that one could lose his/her salvation) in Pravachana Pradeepika by Y. Ezekiel against the series of articles that appeared in ZION KAHALAM propagating the temporary nature of our salvation. The editorials in Zion Kahalam, favoring the unscriptural teaching of losing ones salvation, were written by uncle late K.E. Abraham (Unnoonni Sir). Uncle K.E. Abraham was the founder and the first president of IPC.

IPC do have an official position in support of the unscriptural doctrine of the 'not so eternal salvation.' This I say, because IPC has not refusted their editorials of 1964-65 in favor of it.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : Varghese   View Profile   Since : 7 Sep 2005 12:01:36 PM Close
I hope this forum is not used by those who jumped ship to attract readers to Pentecostal Churches by stomping on Brethren assemblies (as noted in an earlier post).

When people write about failures in our assemblies, we say so to better understand our shortcomings and try to fix it. It does not mean that other gatherings are better. Yes, Pentecostal churches are different! Growing up, I had gone to several Pentecostal mtgs and I am aware of what happens.

True, the folks are very friendly and fellowship mentality runs deep. But what I’ve seen personally on a Sunday morning are emotionally-charged songs with fast tempo and a message added with a call for tithes. A time of remembrance on the Lord’s death or the Lord’s Table does not seem to be a priority in many Pentecostal Sunday gatherings. Though not generalizing the situation, this is what I have seen in several mtgs over a period of years. One of the teachings (as Bro. Koshy mentioned) is that Salvation is not eternal and can be lost. Some others teach that baptism is necessary for salvation and others teach the need for a second watch for the HS. I have seen personally the so-called "spirit" in women and even children during mtgs, which is evident in dancing & hopping around. And finally, why the need for several Pentecostal "denominations"?

Brethren Assemblies may not lively to some but the scriptures are taught and exhortations are based on facts, not fiction or feelings.

God Bless!

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 7 Sep 2005 8:50:16 PM Close
gpk,

I am not proving what Pr. P.M.Philip asked. I know him.He did my wedding. He is LATE, so I am not going to ask him.
I know that argument goes on in brethren and IPC. I was in UAE when i was a teenager. One time in a brethren house special meeting (speach was about salvation and HS)pentacostal members were also invited. While the speech was going on argument started and few of them audio taped the argument.They knew this will happen. So all of us came prepared. Do you believe this. It is true. I am one of the witnesses.

Varghese,
We don't have to look and search the reasons for different pentacostal denomination. We know something is missing in brethren assemblies. WHO WILL LEAD THEM TO REALITY?

What do you mean by emotionally charged songs? Which song was that? If you sing MEC's or TKS's, or KVS's or Charles John's songs meaningfully, it is emotional too. If you have any doubt, ask Charles John. I think in those meeting you heard what they were singing.
What is wrong if they talk about tithes after Lord Supper? I know some of kb are against giving tithes. How the evangalisation goes on without money. No body print material free.Full time evangelists do not have any other sources to get money. Do you know some of them are living with water and few pieces of chappathi? I know. They tighten their belts.
What made you think that Lord's Table is not their priority? I know your writting is DOES NOT SEEM TO BE A PRIORITY. In number of pentacostal churches Lord's Supper is not every sunday. That is true. I don't know why? I didn't say all of them.

Think about it. Pray for those who are not at the front. We have time left. We don't know when HE comes. Untill HE come we have to live. How? Leading aothers to Christ. You can do what you can. And I can do what I can. If you can give money, give money, if you can pray for them, pray, if you can say gospel to them, do that.

Love in Christ,

Sunila.

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 8 Sep 2005 2:56:23 AM Close
Sunila

I do not know what your assemblies are teaching, but persons belongs to IPC, Assemblies of God said to me in that way, even one of them argued me by showing Heb 10:26-29.

What do you mean by:

"THE WORST IS BROTHERN"?

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 8 Sep 2005 6:13:57 AM Close
sambudhanoor,

I said, AMOUNG US THE WORST IS BREOTHREN meaning they follow the issues i mentioned in some other threads.

That doesn't mean that i hate them. No, I love them.

Love in Christ,

Sunila.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 8 Sep 2005 8:10:32 AM Close
Dear 'sunilajoseph@aol.com,'

Let me quote what you wrote on 7 Sep. 2005, "I am not proving what Pr. P.M.Philip asked. I know him.He did my wedding. He is LATE, so I am not going to ask him.
I know that argument goes on in brethren and IPC. I was in UAE when i was a teenager. One time in a brethren house special meeting (speach was about salvation and HS)pentacostal members were also invited. While the speech was going on argument started and few of them audio taped the argument.They knew this will happen. So all of us came prepared. Do you believe this. It is true. I am one of the witnesses."

The following are my observations:

First, you wrote that you are not to prove certain things. No one can prove anything by being a witness or citing past expereinces. Things can logically proved, if and only if the method of proving are in subjection to axioms of logic. When we quote the scriptures, there are certain axioms, many do not follow the axioms of interpretations of the word of God and at the same time claim they proved their points. They will bring examples of convenience and imaginations to establish their claims. This will not make them prove their points, but help to mislead the unsuspected and those who were sprouted by the wayside and among the thorns. If you state what you experienced, then it is only a statement of fact.

Second, when you were in the Middle-east, you and others went to record potential arguement that will be created by pentecostals in a meetings of non-pentecostals. (Let me quote you, "They knew this will happen. So all of us came prepared.") Is this what you are doing here? Just wondering, after reading your postings!

Third, there exists a grave misconception about "being spiritual." Many think that being competitive in the show of 'being spiritual' is what is spiritual. Well! that may be true according to their teaching, but not according to the scriptures. The show of spirituality is of the flesh and it acts against the spirit.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : Varghese   View Profile   Since : 8 Sep 2005 10:41:33 AM Close
When someone does not know or want to answer the reason to many Pentecostal denominations & missing Lord’s Table on Sunday and yet, would like to simply state that something is missing in Brethren Assemblies, is just trying to cause havoc here in this forum. This is KB forum. Please go elsewhere and criticize.

Sadly to say, there are a lot of flaws in Pentecostal Sunday gatherings I have been to. Remembrance is rarely there. Women vocally pray & lead. I have seen enough fighting there too. Problems are equally there or even more. Coming to giving, we must be encouraged to do so but not on a public stage when such giving will be out of compulsion. Remember, scriptural giving must be encouraged always but ultimately giving must be from a cheerful heart! Yes, we must live for the Lord and give sacrificially but please do not bring up irrelevant exhortations here when some are just responding to your blanket criticism!

I would like to know what is missing in Brethren Assemblies (which I assume is not missing in Pentecostal churches) according to the "gospel of sunilajoseph@aol.com"! Please look inside your own to see the fallacy of things I have pointed out above. Yes, Brethren Assemblies do lack "shouting hands" and "jumping knees" (which seems to be equated to the HS manifestation according to you)!

Spirituality is not a skin-deep, emotional thrill that comes when gathered together. I think Sunila (with her negative comment of Brethren Assemblies in general "out of love") is grossly ignorant on her understanding of what Spirituality is all about!

God Bless!

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 9 Sep 2005 7:39:55 AM Close
gpk,

I am writting what i heard and see and learned. I heard from current ipc president the same faith bretheren's have. You are saying you heard somethingelse. I can not believe it. So i am not arguing with you. One day everything will be proven. That is not my job here.

What happened in UAE..............I was only a teenager. I was listening to my parents and community. I am not saying my parents and community were wrong. If i say they were doing wrong when i was a teenager, the older people will say, just like they say now regarding their younger generation. I didn't quite kb.

Varghese,

Your saying' Go somewhere else and criticize. I am not going any where. I am not criticizing anybody. I am telling the truth. Some of you are criticizing pentacostals when brotherens are not ready to accept their wrongs (Which exclusive kb will say).Pentacostals are not saying brotheren are wrong. I am saying few of them are not ekb or pentacostals. They are not amoung both. They change the subject, when somebody speak the truth.

God Bless. I have to go.

Sunila.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 9 Sep 2005 8:16:59 AM Close
Dear 'sunilajoseph@aol.com,'

You wrote, "I heard from current ipc president the same faith bretheren's have." It is a plain admission that the Pentecostals were in the wrong, in doctrine and action, in the past. Now they are trying to correct it. If they are sincere, then they will wrtie about their past errors and correct it in public. They will not allow their pastors to propagate unscriptural doctrines, at least on this subject.

Raising the unholy hands while praying and praising God should be the next doctrine to come down. But, while they were wrong, they went to a meeting of the "brethren" to creat chaos. The next day, if not on the next Sunday, they went to their Pentecostal meeting and raised their unholy hands to praise God for helping them to create chaos and record them, in a 'brethren' meeting!!

Though, you were a teenager at that time, now as an adult, you admire the creation of that chaos. Remember, those 'brethren' did not come to a Pentecostal meeting to create chaos. May be they fear God and hate Satan's influence! When the Pentecostals went to create chaos in a 'brethren' meeting armed with video and other equipment, it was premeditated and with malice in their heart. Do you know, what the scripture says about actions of believers with malice?

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 9 Sep 2005 7:49:26 PM Close
Hello everyone:

Interesting to know that Pentecostals are teaching 'eternal security'!

About 12 years ago I attended a Pentecostal funeral service where the 'senoir-most-available pastor' in the USA gave the final message. In that message he warned the audience that 'Your name is written in eraseable ink in heaven' (exact quote).

At least that 'senior-most' pastor had no grasp of the Bible in regard to this. I hope he learned this eternal, precious truth since then.

Regards

Tom J

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Reply by : jbdubai   View Profile   Since : 10 Sep 2005 2:53:30 AM Close
Dear All

IF ANYONE WANT TO START A NEW THREAD FOR DISCUSSING 'DENOMINATIONS & DIFFERENCES',pls START A NEW ONE.
SEE THE HEADING OF THE SUBJECT & FOCUS ON THAT PLEASE.

I put this subject for discussion, not to criticise brethren or pentecostals
I WAS POINTING OUT A VERSE, THE PRACTICE OF WHICH I COULDNT FIND IN MOST ASSEMBLIES I ATTENDED.SO I WAS JUST ENQUIRING THE REASON (unfortunately,some misunderstood it as 'establising a new doctrine'& now this forum becomes a fighting ring for Brethern and Pentecostals)

All 'Brand Concious & Brand loving' believers may say 'MY DENOMINATION IS PERFECT AND WE LACK NOTHING' which just shows how much they are acknowldging the'real life truth'.

As a KB, from my experience,i have to accept the fact that many KBs gatherings are dry(it is a plain truth, many KBs are accepting it atleast in their heart)

As human beings when we try to follow scriptures, there may be shortcomings, we should accept it and Sincerely we should try to fill what is practically lacking.
We can accept the reality only if we are humble & not proud.

My aim is not to undervalue Brethrens/pentecostals.
As far as i have seen, both are going to some extremes at least in few things which both wont accept.
Let us humbly acknowldge that 'we are not perfect' and let us press on to perfection

let us not cling to 'theoritical perfection'& argue. let us see our own condition and make correction if any needed.(sorry for the one who sounds like 'we lack nothing)

Let us not go to any extremes and justify it. have willingness to accept 'what we see practically'

Just remember, when God looks at us, No 'Special grades' for a'Brethren or Pentecostals.
(Thank God,he is not 'brandconcious)
let us look into our own assemblies and see our need.

Those who speak for their'brand',remember in heaven, you wont have your 'brand uniform'& nobody will identify you as brethren/penetecostal.

I am sorry for the one who understand 'lifting of holyhands' as a DOCTRINALONE even after clarifying 4 times

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 10 Sep 2005 8:43:24 AM Close
gpk,

You are just repeating what i write. We are not hearing any thing new from you. You don't have a straight answer to any body's questions or any subjects. AS YOU KNOW WE GROW SPIRITUALLY. May be that is happening in pentacostals. That is what jbdubai is asking.

In middle east, it was not the pentacostals did taping, it is the brethren. There we, bretheren go to pentacostals house meeting also. We visit each other occassionly. We have common congregation meeting also. We all as a church go there and sing clapping hands. Nobody tell us to do.

In Kerala, in our local brethren church, sunday meeting newcomers (especially newly wedd) ladies say thier testimony. There are pastors in our local brethren church who were in our brethren church first and then went to pentacostal and travelled around the world and reserched, had theirown church and at last they gave up and came back to our bretheren church and preaching there and assisting in Lord's supper. There are lot of things happening in our world. Nobody knows it. There are exclusive kb.

Love in Christ,
Sunila.

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