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Keralabrethren.net: General Forum: Prayers for the dead.

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# 07535 :  Prayers for the dead.

ഇന്നു ക്രിസ്തന്‍ സഭകള്‍ പഠിപ്പിക്കുന്നു മരിച്ചവര്‍ക്കു വേണ്ടി പ്രാര്‍ത്ഥിക്കുന്നത് തെറ്റാണെന്ന്. എങ്കില്‍ എന്തുകൊണ്ട് ?

[കാതോലിക്ക ഉപദേശം മരിച്ചവര്‍ക്കു വേണ്ടി ചില മനഃപാഠ പ്രാര്‍ത്ഥനകളും പൂജകളും ആരാധനകളും നടത്തിയാല്‍ അവരെ സ്വര്‍ഗ്ഗത്തില്‍ എത്തിക്കാമെന്നാണ്. എന്നാല്‍ ഇവിടെ അതിനെ കുറിച്ചല്ല എന്റെ ചോദ്യം.]

മരിച്ചവര്‍ക്കു വേണ്ടി പ്രാര്‍ത്ഥിക്കുന്നത് തെറ്റാണെങ്കില്‍ അത് എന്തുകൊണ്ട് ? മരിച്ചവര്‍ക്കു വേണ്ടി പ്രാര്‍ത്ഥിച്ചാല്‍ ദൈവം കേള്‍ക്കില്ലയോ? എങ്കില്‍ എന്തുകൊണ്ട് ?

Post by : rein  View Profile    since : 8 Feb 2014


Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 10 Feb 2014 6:30:13 PM Close

Dear 'rein,'

Do you want a discussion from the Scriptures?  If you want that, you should make your posting in English for the benefit of all the readers.  If you want a discussion about a third party, then most of us are not in a position to assume about the third party.  If you want a discussion about a third party's doctrines, then you should ask them about it.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Feb 2014 2:54:00 PM Close

Dear 'rein,'

Could you make your initial posting in English?  That will  help all readers to follow and join in the discussion, if they want to do so.

Let me explain the third party reference that I made.  You are the first party, because you started this thread.  Those who partake in the discussion are the second party, because they are responding to your request.  I became one of the members of the second party by responding to your request.  When you or any other person refer to another group or a person then that group or person will be the third party.  They are passive in the discussion, because they are not involved in the discussion, but we may be discussing about them.

Please provide an English translation of your initial posting.

Shalom Malekim!!! 

 

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 12 Feb 2014 9:49:46 AM Close

 Question raised by ‘rein’: If it is wrong to pray for the dead, then why is it wrong? Will not God hear, if prayer is taken for the dead? If not, why?

Answer: It is not just wrong to pray for the dead, rather it is futile. I don’t know whether ‘rein’ has any idea that it is profitable to pray for the dead.  And also, ‘rein may take into account both the ‘dead in Christ’ and ‘dead without Christ’.

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Reply by : rein   View Profile   Since : 18 Feb 2014 6:16:44 PM Close

Dear George P. Koshy and kristianjude

Thank you kristianjude, Your translation is correct.

"If it is wrong to pray for the dead, then why is it wrong? Will not God hear, if prayer is taken for the dead? If not, Why?

You said "it is futile". Dear GPK, Do you agree this?  and what does the Bible say?

 

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 19 Feb 2014 7:11:46 PM Close

Dear ‘rein,’

 

You wrote on 18 Feb 2014, “"If it is wrong to pray for the dead, then why is it wrong? Will not God hear, if prayer is taken for the dead? If not, Why?”  I am not sure about your expression about “…prayer is taken for the dead.”  Who is taking the prayer?  That is the reason, I asked you to start the discussion in English language.

 

The first part of your posting was about the correctness in praying for the dead.  Are we discussing about those who are dead in trespasses and sin?  On the other hand, are we discussing about those who are dead, as Adam when he was 930 years old?

 

In either case, could you search then Scriptures and find some verses for us to discuss.  The enabling of a person to search the Scriptures should be one of the foremost intent or objective of a Christian discussion.  Please provide some verses.

 

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : bchacko   View Profile   Since : 21 Feb 2014 12:45:39 PM Close

The following verse should settle this discussion:

Ecclesiastes 9:3-5

New King James Version (NKJV)

3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun: that one thing happens to all. Truly the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead. 4 But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

5 For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
And they have no more reward,
For the memory of them is forgotten.

 

Bobby Chacko

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Reply by : rein   View Profile   Since : 23 Feb 2014 5:03:33 PM Close
 
 

Dear George P. Koshy

Will God hear if we pray for the dead (irrespective of if the dead man was a sinner or not (Eccles 9: 2,3)?  I hope now my question is clear to answer.

And also I have interest to know 'those who are dead, as Adam, when he was 930 years old?


Dear Bobby Chacko,

I welcome you. Hope you fine.
Anyway your quotes are never related to "Prayer for the dead". First you please read and understand the question carefully then answer it. Prov 24:6, 18:3

You and me all of us will die, do you mean you have no reward?
For you, before answering any question, you have the liability to answer the questions asked towards you by others.

Where it is written Adam observed Sabbath in the Garden of Eden?
Sabbath was preached to Adam and the Woman? First please answer these questions.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 24 Feb 2014 5:44:12 PM Close

 

Dear ‘rein,’

 

You cited Ecclesiastes 9:2-3.  Please remember that for a believer in Lord Jesus Christ as his/her personal Savior, Lord, and God, the New Testament provides the doctrines and the Old Testament the principles of God.  The Old Testament is given for a believer’s edification.  There are illustrations, examples etc. for us to learn from.  However, if we are to learn the doctrines, then we have to search the New Testament.

 

I think that your question is about the dead people as Adam died when he was 930 years old.  You want to know what is the New Testament teaching about praying for the dead after they are dead.  Now onwards, we are going to deal with those who are dead as Adam is, when he was 930 years old.

 

Let us do this as a joined study from the Scriptures.  Could you search the New Testament and tell whether there is any instruction from God to a believer that he/she should pray for the salvation of a man/woman that is already dead?  [A hint:  The Epistle to the Hebrews may be a good place.]  If there is none, then what do we see in the Old Testament, as the principle, on this subject?  [A hint: Amos may be a good place to search.]

 

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 12 Mar 2014 10:23:57 PM Close

rein,

WHY DO YOU WANT TO PRAY FOR THE DEAD?

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 13 Mar 2014 8:50:25 PM Close

rein,

What is the purpose of praying for the dead?

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 14 Mar 2014 8:42:26 PM Close

Dear all,

Can anyone on the forum answer?

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Reply by : rein   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2014 9:24:44 AM Close

First I apologies to all of you especially to M/s George P. Koshy, and guide, kristianjude  etc. Because my computer got damage. And I have no permanent internet connection . Not only that  I have language problem. I don’t know how to express my thoughts and believes of this vast subject in English. But I have many things to discuss with you.

God bless You.

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 23 May 2014 2:50:02 PM Close

rein

Your English is good enough to communicate on this Forum.

But reply to the questions as and when you have access to internet.

Why do you think this a vast subject?

 

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Reply by : rein   View Profile   Since : 24 May 2014 7:32:45 PM Close

guide

Thank you for your replay. Here I have many things to learn from you and others about this subject. I dont believe Jesus is an incapable God who couldn't help a person even after his death. Here you asked two question 1. WHY DO YOU WANT TO PRAY FOR THE DEAD? 2. What is the purpose of praying for the dead?

I hope let us discuss this on the following discussion.

 

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Reply by : rein   View Profile   Since : 24 May 2014 8:09:09 PM Close

Dear George P. Koshy

You said "the New Testament provides the doctrines and the Old Testament the principles of God. The Old Testament is given for a believer’s edification. However, if we are to learn the doctrines, then we have to search the New Testament." That is a good knowledge for me.

And you said "Could you search the New Testament and tell whether there is any instruction from God to a believer that he/she should pray for - THE SALVATION OF - a man/woman that is already dead?"

Here I think (salvation of the dead ! ) is an another subject, but may or may not be related to this subject. Here I think let us ask this question in this manner "Could you search the New Testament and tell whether there is any instruction from God to a believer that he/she should pray for a man/woman that is already dead?

and finally you selected two hint from the New and the Old Testament, [the Hebrews and Amos]. But I couldn't understand why do you selected these particular books for this subject. I could not see anything related to this subject on these books! In the Hebrews there are two hint about the dead. Hebrew 11: 19, 11: 35.

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 25 May 2014 1:45:04 PM Close

The illustration of Luke 16: 19 - 31 is one of the answer to this question.

Luk 16:19  "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.

Luk 16:20  But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,

Luk 16:21  desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Luk 16:22  So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.

Luk 16:23  And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luk 16:24  "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'

Luk 16:25  But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.

Luk 16:26  And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'

Luk 16:27  "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,

Luk 16:28  for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'

Luk 16:29  Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'

Luk 16:30  And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'

Luk 16:31  But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

Once we die only judgement is waiting.

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment

The time to pray for a person is when he/she alive in order to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 25 May 2014 7:46:01 PM Close

 

Dear rein,

Why do you want to pray for the dead? What do you want to achieve by praing for the dead?

HAVE YOU EVER PRAYED FOR ANY DEAD PERSON?

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 26 May 2014 2:00:15 PM Close

Dear ‘rein,’

 

Thank you for searching the two books.  If you failed to find about praying to the dead in those two books, it is not there.  I selected those two books, not for any particular reason, but to give you two books; one from the Old Testament and one from the New Testament.

 

I am still am not sure about your question, because you are keeping it as vague as you could.  You mentioned that your question is not about praying for their salvation.  If it is not for their salvation, then what is the prayer for?  Please make your question as clear as you could, for others can understand what is in your mind.  Do you have the case of Elisha (2 Kings 4) in your mind?  Or, do you consider what we read in John 11:42?  I am placing one from the Old Testament and another from the New Testament.

 

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : rein   View Profile   Since : 15 Jun 2014 4:33:58 PM Close

Dear 'All of you'

Mr.sambudhanoor, Your quoted words are not answer of my question. Luke 16:19 - 31 says about the prayer of a dead man or sinner. All the sinners are dead peoples in front of God. And God will not hear the prayer of a dead man (sinner). Our subject is 'Prayer for the dead'. And Please put any scripture support for your last statement. If you can't it is falls.

Dear George P. Koshy, Your answer "Thank you for searching the two books...it is not there... but to give you two books" is not a fair answer. I believe you will not say anything without any object. o.k

First you have said "I think that your question is about the dead people as Adam died when he was 930 years old.  You want to know what is the New Testament teaching about praying for the dead after they are dead.  Now onwards, we are going to deal with those who are dead as Adam is, when he was 930 years old." Could you explain about this subject of Adam.

The source of my question is from, some part of the Bible

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 3:19. in which he went and PREACHED TO THE SPIRITS IN PRISON,

1Pe 3:20  WHO FORMELY DID NOT OBEY, when God's patience waited IN THE DAYS OF NOAH, DURING THE BUILDING OF THE ARK (Salvation), in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. (RSV)

1Pe 3:20 "WHO DISOBEYED LONG AGO when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. (NIV)

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Reply by : rein   View Profile   Since : 15 Jun 2014 5:19:42 PM Close

The same incident is saying in 1Pet 4: 6

For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed EVEN TO THE DEAD, so that, though THEY had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.

And in John 11:1 - 45. The story of Lazarus the brother of Martha.

John 11:41,42

There, for whom did Jesus pray? Did he pray for the dead Lazarus even after his death? Did God accept that pray? Was it futile?

There Jesus said Joh 11:15  "and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him."

Here what we have to belive? Why he said "let us go to the dead man"?

In Joh 11:40  Jesus said, "Did I not tell you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?"

Here, WHAT WE HAVE TO BELIEVE?

Do we have to believe God will not accept the prayers for the dead?

 

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 18 Jun 2014 6:39:41 PM Close

Dear ‘rein,’

 

You asked on 15 Jun 2014, “First you have said "I think that your question is about the dead people as Adam died when he was 930 years old.  You want to know what is the New Testament teaching about praying for the dead after they are dead.  Now onwards, we are going to deal with those who are dead as Adam is, when he was 930 years old." Could you explain about this subject of Adam.”  We learn from Genesis 5:5 that Adam lived in this earth for 930 years and he died at that age and that death was in his flesh.  I wrote that we could discuss about this death in terms of the death from this earth, as opposed to the second death.  The second death is the separation of sinner from God, forever. There is the death in trespasses and sin, being away from God.  Adam had this third death on the day he sinned.  We are not discussing about this death.  He was separated from God and we do not read that God came down to walk with him and talk with in the cool of the day any more.  This is a type or the shadow of the second death.  We are also not discussing about the second death.  That is what I meant.

 

We learn from the Scriptures that death is mentioned in its various aspects.  Basically, it is a separation.  The death in the flesh is the separation of the body, soul, and spirit that were joined in creation and continues to be so in our conception.  Psalm 138:14-16 is one of the places in the Scriptures that tell us about it.  The man continues his death in trespasses and sins.  That we read in the New Testament (Ephesians 2:1).  During this death in trespasses and sins, the body, soul, and spirit remain united.  This could also be considered as similar to Adam’s life after he was sent out of the Garden of Eden till he died in his flesh.  We read about the second death in Revelation 20:11-15.  Before the second death the body, soul, and spirit that were separated at the death in the flesh are united together and made stand before the Great White throne to be cast into the Lake of Fire.  This is the second death.

 

What happens to the body, soul, and spirit at the death of the flesh?  Ecclesiastes 12:7 tells us that the spirit returns to God who gave it.  What happens to the soul at the death of the flesh?  When the spirit goes to God, the soul goes to place different from God.  Christ said that Lazarus went to Abraham’s bosom and the Rich Man went to a place of torture.  The New Testament saints are told that they will be with the Lord.  A place of torture is not a prison.  It is a place where the souls of unjust are kept.  The souls of men have different places according to their standing with God.  The bodies are placed on the earth and remains on the earth till their resurrection.      

 

Let me quote 1 Peter 3:17-22, “For it is better, if the will of God should will it, to suffer as well-doers than as evildoers, for Christ indeed has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God; being put to death in flesh, but made alive in the Spirit, in which also going He preached to the spirits which are in prison, heretofore disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noe while the ark was preparing, into which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water; which figure also now saves you , even baptism, not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the demand as before God of a good conscience, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, gone into heavens, angels and authorities and powers being subjected to Him.”  In 1 Peter 3:17-22, we do not read about the souls, but about the spirit that were disobedient.  Their disobedience was connected with the time of Noe.  There is no salvation for those spirits.  Only man receives salvation.    In 1 Peter 3:17-2, we read about disobedient spirits and souls of men.  Only eight souls were saved and we do not read about all other souls that perished.  The spirits that are mentioned are mentioned as the ‘sons of God’ in Genesis 6.  Their disobedience is mentioned in Genesis 6.  Christ did not pray for the spirits, evil or good.  He prayed for sinners.

 

You referred to John 11 and wrote, “And in John 11:1 - 45. The story of Lazarus the brother of Martha.

John 11:41,42

There, for whom did Jesus pray? Did he pray for the dead Lazarus even after his death? Did God accept that pray? Was it futile?

There Jesus said Joh 11:15  "and for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him."

Here what we have to belive? Why he said "let us go to the dead man"?

In Joh 11:40  Jesus said, "Did I not tell you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?"

Here, WHAT WE HAVE TO BELIEVE?

Do we have to believe God will not accept the prayers for the dead?”  Now let us look into John 11.  I do not read that Christ said, “"let us go to the dead man",” as you wrote.  I do not read that Christ prayed for Lazarus.  Could you tell how you came to conclude that?  In the verses you quoted or cited, it is not written as you wrote.

 

Shalom Malekim!!!

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