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Keralabrethren.net: General Forum: Predestination

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# 07556 :  Predestination

Kristianjude [KJ] has questioned the doctrine of predestination in another thread. So, here is my response.with a question to start with. 

KJ – Are you saved? 

Tom J

Post by : tomj  View Profile    since : 26 Apr 2014


Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 27 Apr 2014 3:32:14 PM Close

I have not questioned Mr. Tom’s doctrine of Predestination in his thread ‘Jewelry prohibition – a KB heresy!!’ No, I don’t say that I agree with him in his view of Predestination.  I am not questioning him, because I clearly reject his view. My point is different. I know what he preaches about Predestination.  He is clear about it and is stubborn.   Whereas, the following statement he made in his above mentioned thread has kindled the curiosity in me to know how he could reconcile this statement with his doctrine of Predestination.

His statement:  'this man-made rule is hindering people coming to the Lord'.

When I have no willingness to question his doctrine of Predestination at present and to debate with him in this regard, I have an expectation that he may tend to reconcile his own statement with the doctrine he supports.  Readers may look into another post of mine in the same thread that reads ‘If one is predestined, no 'man made' rule will hinder him coming to the Lord. If one is not coming to the Lord because of any hindrance he faces, it means that he is not predestined by God? This is not my view. Readers, please note the question mark at the end. Mr. Tom has to either rewrite his statement or has to discard the Predestination doctrine he is sticking to. He cannot sail in two boats at the same time. This is where Mr. Tom has to clarify his position.

To Mr. Tom,

Sir, raising a counter question cannot be a right way in all the situations to deal with the issues. For your wrong question ‘KJ – Are you saved?’, my right answer is ‘I am saved’.  Before asking me any more questions, please clarify how you reconcile your statement with Predestination doctrine you hold.  As I have answered your question, I expect you to respond in a proper way. 

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 27 Apr 2014 5:53:20 PM Close

K.J, 

Two years ago I wrote this as an answer to a similar question by you [possibly April 30, 2012] When I restated something what Ayyopavam wrote, you are waving the flag saying that I made a mistake or I am speechless here [my version.] You think you caught me in my own error! Your emotions could be bubbling over!! 

Here is my article from 2012 April. 

In what way our offense will affect the salvation of others?

Those appointed to believe and chosen before the foundation of the world would be brought to eternal blessings by the sovereign power of God. (Acts 13:48; 18:10) No one can do anything to prevent the sovereign will of God from coming to fruition. My refusal to share the gospel to the people who God placed in my path would not result in them being lost eternally. My disobedience will not affect the sovereign plans of God. My bad attitude and quarrelsome behavior and lack of love and consideration for others would not prevent a person chosen by God from coming to Christ. John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.”  This is the sovereign declaration from God the Son.

There is a compelling reason given in the book of Isaiah 53: 11-12 as a promise from God the Father to the Son which further establishes this truth. “He [Jesus Christ] shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.” This is the sovereign decree from the Father.

But I can heed to the exhortation by Paul and be an imitator of him (1 Cor. 11:1) and do everything possible by being diligent in spreading the gospel. I can purposely dedicate my life to be a vessel that could bring glory to His name. On the other hand, I can rebel and create trouble everywhere I go and project myself as a bad example. That would be a personal loss for me.

Paul had heard the gospel but purposed in his mind to persecute the ones who followed Jesus. God stopped him on the track with His miraculous intervention and made him His own [cf. Acts 9:4.] God prepared Philip to go close to the Chariot of the Eunuch and explain the gospel in a personal setting [cf. Acts 8:29.] God empowered Peter to preach to a crowd and brought 3000 to the kingdom of God [cf. Acts 2:41.] He is not confined to any one particular method.

Ravi Zacharias in his book 'Walking from East to West' talks about a military officer in Indonesia who in his rage tore up pages of the Bible and used in place of toilet tissues to show his contempt towards the Book. But God used those 'dirty pages' to tell of his love to a janitor who was thirsting for finding God's Word. This officer's rage and contempt ministered to the needs of a prepared soul. This janitor became a preacher and teacher in later years.

The choice is given to us to be able and willing participants to work hand in hand with God's sovereign plan. God had promised many blessings to us besides salvation when we fulfill our commission. We can make a difference in how effective we become. But God's plan in bringing a soul to Him cannot be thwarted by my messing up the mission assigned to me.

I can choose to be like Paul or I can choose to be like Jonah. But Jonah's running away from his mission did not prevent God's sovereign plan to bring repentance to the people of Nineveh [Jonah 3:5]. God's plan to communicate His love to a hostile group of people was accomplished through a disobedient servant. While doing so, God was able to display His perseverance and forgiveness to an unwilling, arrogant and angry Prophet. Furthermore, God displays His power over a big fish of the sea in following His commands right down to the minute detail. 

[Now that I answered I need to come back at some point to your answer that you are 'saved.' ]

Tom J

 

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 28 Apr 2014 12:58:26 AM Close

Dear K J / Guide, 

If God can do all of the above to bring people to His own with the few examples I mentioned, do you think the Jewelry issue would prevent anyone coming to the Lord? When I explained, I used the word ‘hinder’ with a purpose even when I restated what was said by someone else. ‘Hinder’ is different from ‘prevent.’ No one can prevent a chosen one by the Sovereign God from coming to Him. This is what God the Son & God the Father declared.

To accept the biblical teaching of predestination, one should have proper humility.

Tom J

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 28 Apr 2014 1:01:53 AM Close

Dear KJ, 

Now my next question -  You said that 'you are saved' as your 'right answer.' 

Let me ask - 'saved from what?' 

Tom J

 

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 28 Apr 2014 9:16:08 AM Close

Sir,

Before going into your responses and making my comments, let me bring forth one verse hereunder:

But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in – Matthew 23:13

How do you look at this verse? Is shutting up the kingdom of heaven against men only a hindering, but not preventing? And read the verse further to see how it progresses

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 28 Apr 2014 12:45:03 PM Close

I did not contribute to this thread.

tomj please remove my name from your post of 28/4 12:58:26 AM

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 28 Apr 2014 2:25:43 PM Close

Dear guide, 

You wrote in the Jewelry thread on April 26th 17:19:00 - "I think, as stated by kj, tomj cannot sustantiate his statement (we are loosing lot of souls aswell = our evangelistic efforts have become ineffective; this man-made rule is hindering people coming to the Lord). Even a man made rule or anything in this world cannot not stop one to come to the Lord if he is predestinated (as taught by tomj)" 

This is why I included. The answers above addressed that issue. 

Dear KJ, 

Matthew 23:13 - Please try to read my posting above regarding the sovereign will of God and how that cannot be changed. Then try to see how that verse should be understood. I have explained all these verses sometime or other in the past. 

I am interested in guiding you to see for yourself how God's sovereign will is at work in your salvation. Stick with my questions and you may see how predestination is at work in a practical sense. If you are a genuine seeker of the truth I will spend time with you. But if you are out there vehemently trying to defeat me in a debate our dialogue is useless. So, please stick with the question at hand - 'Saved from what?' 

After this answer there will be few more questions concerning salvation - trust me, you may benefit from these questions/ answers. But if you are not interested, you don’t have to answer.

Tom J  

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 28 Apr 2014 2:27:56 PM Close

Dear ‘kristianjude,’ a.k.a. ‘kristine,’

 

In another thread, you asked brother Tom J to start a discussion about ‘predestination.’  He started one, and asked you certain specific questions to have a meaningful discussion on the subject of your interest.  However, you are not answering those questions, but are trying to deviate from the intent and scope of this thread also.  You do that by not answering the pertaining questions, but quoting a verse from the Scriptures and asking questions that are not related to the thread.

 

On the thread that deals with wearing ornaments, you brought the subject of predestination.  Your contention was that how predestination justifies what brother Tom J wrote about wearing or not wearing jewelry affecting the salvation of sinners.  As you are trying to deviate from the scope and intent of this thread, let me ask you two specific questions.  Try to answer them as honestly as you can.

 

Question #1: Did brother Tom J write that men or women are predestinated for salvation?  If he did, could you provide the evidence by bringing that thread forward?

 

Question #2:  Is it written in the Scriptures that men and women are predestinated for salvation?  If so, could you provide the evidences by quoting the verses with their references, for evidence?

 

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 28 Apr 2014 7:53:45 PM Close

 

tomj

I did not contribute to this thread.

Please remove my name as requested earlier from this thread and if you want any answer from me related to the other thread please post it there

I may or may not contribute here if I decide to.

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2014 10:42:53 AM Close

An unsummoned entry by Mr. Koshy

Mr. Tom has started this thread exclusively to interact with me on a specific issue. Without any fair reason, Mr. Koshy made an entry here for some filthy reasons of his own. If he has contributed something in relation to the subject, I would not have mind. But he has stepped in here as if lending a helping hand to Mr. Tom, but undermining Mr. Tom’s writing intelligence.  Mr. Tom knows what to write and when to write. He knows about the persons he is dealing with are.

Mr.Koshy’s one fanatical intention is to make his presence possible everywhere. What he has written here is irrelevant.  He wants to exhibit his smartness even in the areas where his presence is absolutely unnecessary.

Mr. Koshy’s foolishness:

1. He has written that in another thread, I asked Mr. Tom J to start a discussion about ‘predestination.’  This is false information he has passed to the readers. I have not asked so.

2. Mr. Koshy has written that Mr. Tom asked me certain specific questions to have a meaningful discussion on the subject of your interest. What is the subject of my interest? I have not said that ‘Predestination’ is the subject of my interest.

3. Mr. Koshy has written that I am not answering Mr. Tom’s questions, but trying to deviate from the intent and scope of this thread also.

When I have asked Mr. Tom in the other thread to clarify how he correlates his statement about ‘hindering’ with the ‘Predestination, instead of explaining his position, Mr. Tom in his initial post asked me a question which is entirely different from the scope of the issue I raised with him.  Mr. Koshy was not an honest man to point out his ‘deviation’ to him.

4. Mr. Koshy has written ‘You do that (‘my deviating’ as he wants to say) by not answering the pertaining questions, but quoting a verse from the Scriptures and asking questions that are not related to the thread’ Even though Mr. Tom bypassed clarifying what I asked for and raised his first question, I answered him.  In my post dated 28th here in this thread I have written ‘Before going into your responses and making my comments, let me bring forth one verse hereunder’.  Reader can notice that there is a clear commitment by me that I will answer his other question. Taking a new verse to Mr. Tom’s attention is a not a deviation from the issue.  It is only to seek for some more clarity of his view and then to answer Mr. Tom fruitfully. I suspect Mr. Koshy’s sanity as he does not understand all this.

5. Mr. Koshy’s another statement: ‘On the thread that deals with wearing ornaments, you brought the subject of predestination.  Your contention was that how predestination justifies what brother Tom J wrote about wearing or not wearing jewelry affecting the salvation of sinners’.  Here also, Mr. Koshy exhibited his foolishness. Believers’ wearing ornaments or not wearing is not at all my concern here. My interest is to know If it is said that man-made rules (whether jewelry prohibition or anything else) are hindering people coming to the Lord, then is it not statement contradicting Predestination doctrine. This is not at all trying to deviate from the scope and intent of this thread.

This dishonest man tests my honesty asking two questions:

Question #1: Did brother Tom J write that men or women are predestinated for salvation?  If he did, could you provide the evidence by bringing that thread forward?

Why does Mr. Koshy bother whether Mr. Tom wrote so or not? Has Mr. Tom appointed Mr. Koshy as his secretary or a spokesman? Let Mr. Tom ask this question to me.

Question #2:  Is it written in the Scriptures that men and women are predestinated for salvation?  If so, could you provide the evidences by quoting the verses with their references, for evidence?

As a secretary to Mr. Tom or whatever it is, let Mr. Koshy verify with him in this regard.

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2014 10:44:45 AM Close

To  Mr. Tom,

Spare me some time sir, I will come back to you.

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2014 1:31:12 PM Close

If Mr. Koshy deletes his post, i will also delete mine.

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2014 9:33:30 PM Close

tomj,

please comply with my request.

Thanks

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2014 9:55:30 PM Close

Dear guide, 

You wrote in the Jewelry thread on April 26th 17:19:00 - "I think, as stated by kj, tomj cannot sustantiate his statement." I was responding to your statement with my comments. Did you write that comment in the other Jewelry thread? If you did, what seems to be the problem? The Jewelry thread was not meant to discuss or answer to your assertion. You said I cannot substantiate. Don't you see that?

Tom J. 

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2014 10:30:28 PM Close

tomj,

Please post your reply/comments on that thread itself and not elsewhere.

(I believe that the way predestination, as a doctrine, defined and explained here is not right. I still need to be clear about the way I understand it and I will explain it when I have the leading of the Holy Spirit),

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2014 12:49:41 PM Close

Dear ‘krsitianjude,’ a.k.a. ‘kristine,’

 

Thank you for writing that your contention, against the eternal security of the salvation from God, has no basis from the Word of God or even from the writings of brother Tom J.  If there is any, you should not have any difficulty to provide them.  I ask you to provide the answers to my two questions from 28 Apr 2014.  Those questions are appropriate and are according to the scope and intent of this thread.  If you have any differences of opinions, I ask you to read the heading of this thread.  You must accept the truth that predestination is in the Scriptures and it is a Scriptural Doctrine.

 

You also wrote on 29 Apr 2014, “If Mr. Koshy deletes his post, i will also delete mine.”  It appears that you are convicted of your own mind.

 

By the way, this is an open Forum.

 

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2014 7:54:35 PM Close

Do we need to say "eternal security of salvation"? Isn't it enough/right to say 'eternal salvation' or 'salvation eternal' only?

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 1 May 2014 11:27:10 AM Close

To Mr. Tom,

Sir,

When I say that I do not accept the doctrine of Predestination as you adhere to, I have the reasons for it. As I come forward to refute you with my reasons and if you say that it is my trying to defeat you, I can’t help it. You say that our dialogue in such a debate is useless. You are asking me to try to understand your writing. That is a euphemistic style of forcing me to accept what you say without any questions. The very purpose for two persons to engage in a debate is to table each one’s reasons in support of their respective beliefs. In fact, I have not shown any interest to debate over Predestination and you know that very well. I have been anxious only to know how you could reconcile your one specific statement with the doctrine of predestination you follow (when they are, for me, contradictory to each other).

Since you have asserted that it is useless for both of us to engage in a debate if I do not understand and agree with you, I am contributing the following post not addressing to you personally, but to the readers in general.

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 1 May 2014 11:28:03 AM Close

Dear Readers,

This has reference to Mr. Tom’s post dated 27 April 2014.

Mr. Tom’s statement: Those appointed to believe and chosen before the foundation of the world would be brought to eternal blessings by the sovereign power of God. (Acts 13:48; 18:10)

My comment: Acts 13:48 reads ‘When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed’. Appointing is only for eternal life, not for believing.  If Mr. Tom’s interpretation is taken right, then the unbelievers cannot be condemned for their disbelief, because God has not appointed to believe and rejected them from believing. ‘Appointing to eternal life’ takes its root from God’s foreknowledge about who will believe and who will not.  Believing is not instituted by God (‘Authoring and finishing faith’ has a different meaning).

There is one crucial verse in this same chapter which I bring to the notice of the readers. Read V 41:

 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;  Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you’.

Readers have to pay a close attention to see that Paul warned the Jews who were hearing him in a synagogue. Paul warned them that they should not perish (spiritually) because of their like the OT unbelievers because of their disbelief. If we accept Mr. Tom’s Predestination doctrine, we can see that Paul’s warning is meaningless. When they are appointed to believe, why should Paul warn them? If they or some of them would not believe, they would not have heed to Paul’s warning. After all God only had rejected them from believing.

Another important verse 46 which reads: ‘Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles

These Jews were unworthy of everlasting life, not because God rejected them from believing.  In fact God sent Paul and Barnabas to them first as He found it necessary that the word of God should be spoken to them.  If God was not willing to save them, it would not have been necessary for Him to send His servant to the Jews. These Jews willfully rejected God’s words and it was not God, but they for themselves made them unworthy of everlasting life. They were against God’s willing.  Readers can find that Predestination theory could not take a rule over in this scene.

If we say that God selectively institutes faith in some, then we should say that Christ Jesus shed his blood only for those selected. Is it right?

If my explanation is accepted, one can understand what Acts 18:10 means.  

Mr. Tom’s statement: No one can do anything to prevent the sovereign will of God from coming to fruition. My refusal to share the gospel to the people who God placed in my path would not result in them being lost eternally. My disobedience will not affect the sovereign plans of God. My bad attitude and quarrelsome behavior and lack of love and consideration for others would not prevent a person chosen by God from coming to Christ.

My comment: God’s sovereign plan in order to save the mankind had been to send His Son as a redeemer of them and this plan was fulfilled on the cross of Calvary. Whereas in individual’s cases, God wants everyone has to come to Him voluntarily.  Re 22:17 says ‘And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely’.  God wants that one should come to Him on his own will. God does not want a robot like believer. One individual believer’s refusal is not at all a hindrance to the unbelievers to accept Christ. Gospel is proclaimed throughout the world in many ways. Many unbelievers has heard the Good news several times

The ‘hindrence’ that cause stumbling to unbelievers to come to the Lord are the misconduct and misbehavior of the believers causing damage to Christian testimony. I will explain about this under the title ‘Mr. Tom’s right statement Vs. the wrong doctrine’.

Mr. Tom’s statement: John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.”  This is the sovereign declaration from God the Son.

My explanation: The Lord said these words to the unbelieving Jews, calling them they were not of His sheep. He called them that they were not His sheep, not because he did not choose them, but because they did not believe Him. Why should the Lord waste his time speaking to these un chosen? I realize that Christ had a concern for them. In His calling them they were not of His sheep, He pointed out their obstinancy to them and He wanted them to come to come back to Him. To understand and accept this, we have to read V 38: ‘But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him’. The Lord need not ask them to believe if he had assuredly  said that they were not of His sheep. 

There is a no compelling reason given in the book of Isaiah 53: 11-12 as a promise from God the Father to the Son that establishes Predestination doctrine.  As I have written above, God’s sovereign plan in order to save the mankind had been to send His Son as a redeemer of them and this plan was fulfilled on the cross of Calvary. God knew that many will turn to Him through the Lord when this plan is fulfilled and because of this it has been written that the God the father promised His Son that He would divide Him (The Son) a portion with the great. There is one note worthy portion in Isaiah 53:11- ‘by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many’.

The knowledge mentioned is His foreknowledge.

A passage from Mr. Tom’s post: Paul had heard the gospel but purposed in his mind to persecute the ones who followed Jesus. God stopped him on the track with His miraculous intervention and made him His own [cf. Acts 9:4.] God prepared Philip to go close to the Chariot of the Eunuch and explain the gospel in a personal setting [cf. Acts 8:29.] God empowered Peter to preach to a crowd and brought 3000 to the kingdom of God [cf. Acts 2:41.] He is not confined to any one particular method.

My comment: Taking some peculiar incidents and building doctrine on them is not advisable always.  We should take more care in doing so. In Acts 26:19m we read that Paul said that he was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, he did not say that God made him obedient which means obeying had been his own willing on realizing the purpose of God in choosing him.  When we read that Paul has said ‘but I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway’, we can understand that one should be diligent that he should not be cast away if his lifestyle becomes un Christian, even though he has been a chosen one.  

When I read Acts 8, I could understand certain facts about the eunuch. He had come to Jerusalem for to worship. Basically he was a pious man. The portion of the scripture he was reading had been an important one and that was about Jesus and his mission of salvation.  I can sense that knowing that the eunuch’s mind was a field ready to show the seed of scripture, God sent Philip to him. This selection of God was according to his foreknowledge. Acts 2:41 does not say anything about Predestination. ‘Gladly receiving the words’ does not mean predestination, it is a free willing to receive the words.

Mr. Tom’s right statement vs. the wrong doctrine:

Mr. Tom has rightly said ‘we are losing lot of souls as well = our evangelistic efforts have become ineffective; this man-made rule is hindering people coming to the Lord. This is how I read it’ (Thread: Jewelry prohibition – a KB heresy!!). Whether the man made rules or any other things, when the hinder people coming to the Lord, it means clearly that they are deprived of accepting Christ as their Savior. If we look at this hindering with Predestination perspective, this ‘hinders cannot stop the stop the chosen ones from coming to the Lord.  So hinders are not to be bothered. For the not chosen people, they are not coming to the Lord and accept Him, not because of the effect of the hinders, but because God has not chosen them.  Here too, hinders are not to be bothered. Then why should there be all this fuss about hinders?

Hinders cause spiritual damage, it is a fact. When the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles (unbelievers) through us because of our non Christian acts (Roman 2:24), the gentiles will despise our God in Christ. They will ignore gospel. And it is happening largely. Christians going to the court of the law of this world taking the dispute between the brothers, between the assemblies, between an assembly and an organization, all this makes the gentiles laughing at us. We cannot take the peace given by the gospel to them boldly. Even when the chosen one (I mean here the one who has accepted Christ) can be deceived by Satan to drift away from the truth (Mark 13:22, Matthew 24:24), Satan can deceive the unbelievers from coming to the Lord show casing the evil nature of the so called believers.

So we the chosen ones should not be hindering those who will have to become the chosen and also should be diligent to make sure that we remain chosen. This is the truth I have understood. Predestination doctrine enjoys no privilege here.

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 1 May 2014 11:29:52 AM Close

To Mr. Tom,

Sir,

I value your interest in guiding me to see something regarding God's sovereign will and I too have an interest to see how the ‘question & answer’ programme goes. Before answering your question ‘saved from what’, I want to know why you have, in your statement ‘[Now that I answered I need to come back at some point to your answer that you are ‘saved.’], put the word ‘saved in between inverted commas? If you have marked it as ‘you are saved’, I would have no question, but you have marked as – you are ‘saved’. What is that intriguing expression of yours? 

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 1 May 2014 1:23:56 PM Close

Dear ‘guide,’

 

When we say ‘eternal salvation,’ then that is to indicate the nature of the salvation that we received from God.  On the other hand, when we say ‘eternal security of salvation,’ then that is to indicate our personal faith and experience of that salvation.  This ‘security’ of salvation, as well as the ‘eternal’ nature of salvation were taught by Lord Jesus Christ.  We read that in the Gospel of John, especially in chapters 6, 7, and 8.  By faith, a child of God is to accept His teachings without questioning the Son.  Those who are interested to contradict the Son do that by using their ‘logic of contradiction’ and ‘logic of complementary.’  They refuse to accept God’s revealed teachings by faith.  They are dedicated to walk by sight and not by faith.

 

If you want to continue this discussion, please start another thread, because this is on the subject, ‘predestination.’

 

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 1 May 2014 1:46:58 PM Close

If it is said that one should stand fast in his faith and in the Truth not forsaking his faith, it is not a walking by sight, but walking by faith. Doctrine of Eternal Security is not scriptural and is a damnable heresy.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 1 May 2014 2:08:44 PM Close

Dear KJ,

Thank you for your postings.

The reason I put ‘saved’ in the quotes was not to indicate that you are not saved. The word ‘saved’ has not been understood by many including the ones who believe in the security of salvation. We seldom think about ‘saved’ from what?; ‘saved’ by what and ‘saved’ for what?

Are you saved? This is a question asked by many people with genuine intent. But if you stop such a person and inquire, ‘saved from what’, many people stumble. A proper Biblical understanding of ‘saved by what & saved for what’ would bring a person to become a true worshipper and to the knowledge of God’s plan for his people.  

Let me express my honest opinion about you. You have no desire to study about what God had done for you. I am not questioning your salvation. But I do not see a genuine desire, except a feisty desire to argue. May be someone could help you, but I do not think I am capable of doing it.

You can study on your own these three questions – saved from what; saved by what & saved for what. If you do, you may see some light at the end of the tunnel.

Tom Johns

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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 1 May 2014 2:14:55 PM Close

Dear 'kristianjude'

As with many spiritual topics, the doctrine of predestination is not easy for our feeble minds to grasp. The word of God is extremely clear in Rom 8, that ALL whom God foreknew, will the same God, predestine, call, justify and glorify. That tells me that what God purposed from past eternity, He is committed to bring to pass in future eternity. If the doctrine of predestination, depended on human will or response, then we would not have the definite teaching in the repeated 'whom' in Rom 8:29 and 30. God will not loose anyone He foreknew, to the fallibility of human will. His own hand works out their salvation - from calling to glorification.

Now clearly, the Word of God also emphasizes the need on the part of men, to willfully believe and come to a saving knowledge of God. God has not made 'robots' who come to Him, having no self awareness of what is happening. But, why do some believe and others do not? Again, God's word is clear - it is God who works in believers, both to will and to do His good pleasure (Phil 2:13). God is in control of who is hearing the gospel and who is not (see Acts 16:6). Even among those who hear the gospel, God is working in the hearts of those who respond (see the example of Lydia in Acts 16:14). In responding to the gospel, men come willfully and fully aware of the changes working in their hearts. Just as God commanded light to shine out of the darkness (Gen 1:3), even so, He commands the light of Christ to shine in the dark and wicked hearts of those whom He foreknew (2 Cor 4:6).

Perhaps the best example of how the Lord works is seen in Acts 18, where the Spirit of God allows us to have a peak "behind the scenes". In Acts 18, Paul is in the city of Corinth, trying to persuade both Jews and Greeks about Christ. Though he persuaded them, they still opposed him vehemently (18:6). This shows that their wicked hearts will not allow belief in the gospel, despite Paul persuasive words. And we can say that (based on Lydia's experience in Acts 16:14), the Lord did not open their hearts to heed to Paul. In verses 9 & 10, I find one of most amazing words from the Lord Jesus to apostle Paul, which affirms the doctrine of predestination very clearly:

Now the Lord spoke to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid, but speak, and do not keep silent; for I am with you, and no one will attack you to hurt you; for I have many people in this city.”

Paul is assured here that no one in the city will attack him. Not only is his personal safety assured, but the Lord assured Paul, that He has "many people in this city." Notice, the Lord did not tell Paul who His people were and where they lived within Corinth. If He did so, it would have sparred Paul a lot of hard work of trying to persuading people. He could have just gone to just those to belong to the Lord and preached the gospel to them. They would have believed without any need of Paul's persuasion. But the Lord wanted Paul to keep preaching and keep trying to persuade his audience. When Paul thus obeyed the Lord, the Lord will bring His people, whom He foreknew, to hear Paul and to the saving knowledge of His gospel. Paul had to preach, knowing that the Lord was doing His work of conversion. Paul had to obey by faith.

When the Lord said, "I have many people in this city", He was asserting His ownership over those who had as yet not heard the gospel and as yet had not believed. If the Lord was merely referring to those who He knew would respond (although we know from v4 and v6 that Paul's persuasion will not work by itself), then He would **not** have asserted these people as being His, **before** Paul preached the gospel to them. After all, in general all unsaved people are children of the devil and belong to their father, the devil. The fact that some unsaved people in Corinth were claimed by the Lord, establishes without any doubt, that these people were predestined in past eternity to hear Paul's preaching and come to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus.

Paul's assurance in preaching in the wicked and immoral city of Corinth, was that Lord's promise that He had many people in city, who would believe in Paul's preaching of Christ. These words of the Lord gave him the confidence to preach boldly for an year and half, and establish a church in that city. In our feeble minds, we cannot fathom how predestination and free will come together to save His chosen people. But to make light of God's sovereign and eternal choices, is both wrong and unscriptural. In the city of Corinth, unsaved people who belonged to the Lord, came of their own free will, fully aware of themselves, by the inner working of the Lord, to become children of God.

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 1 May 2014 2:17:08 PM Close

Dear George

Eternal Salvation is indicative of the nature of salvation that God provided which itself (eternal) means that saalvation will not be lost (as it is for ever).  I fail to understand how this security is indicative of our personal faith and experience. 

(I raised this matter as it is found on this thread. I have no intention to open a new thread).

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 1 May 2014 5:35:37 PM Close

Dear 'guide,'

This thread is about predestination.  If you want to discuss about 'eternal salvation' or 'eternal security of salvation,' please start another thread.  I have requested this before.

Shalom Malekim!!! 

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 1 May 2014 8:53:54 PM Close

I answered your request earlier as quoted below. Please be guided by that. 

"Eternal Salvation is indicative of the nature of salvation that God provided which itself (eternal) means that saalvation will not be lost (as it is for ever). I fail to understand how this security is indicative of our personal faith and experience.

(I raised this matter as it is found on this thread. I have no intention to open a new thread)."

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 2 May 2014 1:07:19 PM Close

Dear ‘guide,’

 

If you are interested in a discussion on a subject other than predestination, then you should start a new thread on the subject of your interest.  If you are interested to catch me on my words, then you are acting like the Pharisees who approached Lord Jesus Christ to catch Him on His words.  Their questions, without exemption, were not on what He was saying.  On this thread, I will not answer your questions on the subject of salvation.  If your reason is that I made an expression on one of the frames, then that was explained.  If you want to highjack this thread with following questions, then I have no part in that effort.

 

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 2 May 2014 6:57:53 PM Close

Dear George

I am not interested in these kind of expresions either. Please bear with me.

I stand by what I posted with reference to your statement on this thread.

"Eternal Salvation is indicative of the nature of salvation that God provided which itself (eternal) means that saalvation will not be lost (as it is for ever). I fail to understand how this security is indicative of our personal faith and experience"

You will have all freedom to answer it or leave it..

 

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 3 May 2014 2:18:31 PM Close

Dear 'moses2006'

As I have said at various times, I am not much interested in debating 'Predestination'. As far as I am concerened, all is well that ends well. At the begining of your post, you have stated that the doctrine of predestination is not easy for our feeble minds to grasp. Then there is no point for both of us to discuss anymore on this subject.

By the way, I don't know how you have understood Acts 13:41 & 46.  I'm asking out of curiosity and not for discussing about. 

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 3 May 2014 2:21:17 PM Close

To Mr. Tom,

Sir,

Your explanation for 'saved' is satisfactory and I have taken your comment on me lightly, not hurting, no harm.

Thanks.

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 3 May 2014 2:52:16 PM Close

"Reply by : tomj Since : 28 Apr 2014 14:25:43

Dear KJ,

Matthew 23:13 - Please try to read my posting above regarding the sovereign will of God and how that cannot be changed. Then try to see how that verse should be understood. I have explained all these verses sometime or other in the past".

From the above quote we see the usage "sovereign will of God".

In the past we have seen the question where in the Bible it is said about the "free will of man" ? (for info. Neither do I favour nor prppagate it). The Bible speaks only about the "will of man".

Similarly I would like to ask a question where in the Bible can we find the usage "sovereign will of God"?

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 3 May 2014 3:39:32 PM Close

Dear guide, 

Let me explain the sovereign will of God. You are free to call it however you please. I borrowed this term from other people who studied this subject. 

  1. Sovereign Efficacious will or Ultimate will –

This aspect of God’s will is known as God’s directive, sovereign, or hidden will. This is God’s ultimate will. By this God bring things to pass with absolute certainty. Nothing can resist the will of God in this sense. He created the world by His sovereign will. He created the light and the light could not have refused to shine.  Eph 1:11 “who works all things according to the counsel of His will” and Job 42:2, “I know that You can do anything, and that no purpose of Yours can never be withheld from You.” This is His sovereign will.

This aspect of His will acknowledges that because He is sovereign, He must allow whatever happens happen. Also, it acknowledges the fact that even when God passively permits things to happen, He must choose to permit them, because He is powerful to intervene. This is understood as the sovereign efficacious will. This will is often hidden to us until after it comes to pass.

There are two other forms of God's will are found in the scriptures. 'Perspective or revealed will & His perfect will or permissive will.' I am not going into those now. Hope this is helpful. 

Tom Johns

 

 

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 3 May 2014 4:37:13 PM Close

We cannot call it "however we please"! We borrow from other people and try to fit into their philosophies.

It is the "will of God" and we need not add other adjectives to it in order to conform to other people's theories. 

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 3 May 2014 7:21:37 PM Close

Guide,

I appreciate your strict adherence and reverence to the expressed words of the scriptures. But I do have a question for you. How would you explain the following verses without differentiating the various aspects of God’s will?  

1 Timothy 2:4 we see that "God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth,” and 2 Peter 3:9, “not willing that any should perish but all should come to repentance.”

Based on these verses do you believe in the universal salvation?

Tom Johns

 

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 3 May 2014 9:03:13 PM Close

Dear Tom,

It is my desire for "strict adherence and reverence to the expressed words of the scriptures" as mentioned by you. But being in the flesh I doubt whether I myself can ensure this. (I still am a student regarding the Word of God),

Dear brother, the Bible do not teach or refer to "universal" salvation.

The verse in itself is plain and clear - 'it is the desire of God that all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (I changed the verse in my own words - the meaning does not change). [1 Timothy 2:4 - will/wants/longs/desires are used in different versions] These words indicate that all may not be saved (this is what I understand).

2 Peter 3: 9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance".(KJV)

The context of this verse is to address the delay "as some men count slackness" of the second coming of the Lord. A purpose is attached to this. God "is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance". This also indicate that all will not be saved.

[The versions are KJV, NIV,Living Bible, NRSV]

  
 

 

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