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Keralabrethren.net: General Forum: Did Christ suffer spiritual death on the cross?

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# 07575 :  Did Christ suffer spiritual death on the cross?

I searched the net for for an answer. There are varied opinions. (http://carm.org/did-jesus-die-spiritually) concludes as follows.

Qoute:   "We can clearly see that John 19:30 tells us Christ's atoning work was finished on the cross.  Colossians 2:14 tells us that the sin debt was cancelled on the cross.  If Christ atoning work was finished on the cross and the sin debt was canceled on the cross, then there's no need for Jesus to go to hell to finish anything or suffer in our place--since it was all done on the cross.  Furthermore, none of the verses they used to support the idea that Jesus went to hell and suffered remotely suggest that was the case.  Therefore, those who teach that Jesus had to go to hell to finish the atonement and take our place suffering there are denying the sufficiency of the cross. They need to repent.". Unquote

Although the conclusion stresses the point that Jesus had not gone to hell to finish the atonement and take our place suffering there, it does not fully answer the question. I seek comments from the readers.

P.A.Paulose

Post by : palatty  View Profile    since : 12 Jun 2014


Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 12 Jun 2014 12:54:26 PM Close

Dear P.A. Paulose,

 

You wrote that you searched the ‘net’ for an answer.  Are you willing and ready to search the Scriptures?  If you are, then I would like to join you, in that search.

 

To do that, let me ask you about what do you consider as ‘spiritual death,’ as opposed to ‘non-spiritual death.’  If you do not like the expression, ‘non-spiritual death,’ then I would change that to ‘physical death.’  It will be good to understand the term ‘death’ from the Scriptures.  Could you define these three, using the Scriptures?  We will go from there.

 

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 13 Jun 2014 4:15:17 PM Close

Readers are not called upon to clear my doubt for I have not raised a doubt.

Please read the question.

You may comment with a straight answer to the question--i.e. YES or NO-- and validate your answer in the light of your  interpretation of the relevant scripture.

P.A.Paulose

 

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 13 Jun 2014 9:24:31 PM Close

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From GOING TO AND FRO IN THE EARTH, and from walking up and down in it.


V: 8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

 

Here is some one who went TO and FRO and UP and DOWN the NET (web), considered the SON OF GOD,

THERE IS NONE LIKE JESUS. PERFECT AND UPRIGHT MAN - THE SON OF MAN and the SPOTLESS LAMB OG GOD. 

Search the WORD OF GOD and find JESUS CHRIST, the author and finisher of our faith.

 

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 14 Jun 2014 5:34:33 AM Close

The opinion that one should only study the Scripture and never look up the net for an answer is like telling a student that he should restrict his study only to the text book and should never use any reference book or internet.

You will see that the answers on the net are written with clear references to the verses from the Scripture. The writers don’t deduce their answers based on some Shakespearian play or cock and bull stories.

Opinions can be nonsensical; At times even the learned ones act immature.

P.A.Paulose

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 14 Jun 2014 8:24:54 PM Close

Dear Paulose,

My post was not written in a lighter tone to compare it with a text book and additional reading for a student.I neither discouraged nor objected to additional reading.

(The problem is when the additional material contains fundamental errors which will be unknowingly understood as right answers and the student finally fails).

Even, when satan tempted Jesus Christ he was quoting scriptural references all the time.

On 13 Jun 2014 16:15:17 you wrote "Readers are not called upon to clear my doubt for I have not raised a doubt". You may not have doubt or raised a doubt to the readers, it has raised many doubts in the minds of the readers.

I have few questions on your opening statements:

1. About the title:  What do you mean by SPIRITUAL DEATH of Christ?

2. You stated "There are varied opinions": This itself shows that these are the work of the evil one. The Word of God has very clear answers and not opinions. Please list the varied opinions along with your opinion.

3. What is the purpose of Jesus going into hell??

4. You stated: "Although .................it does not fully answer the question". If it has not fully answered; 1. Why it has not?  2. Then how is it fully answered?

You also stated "At times even the learned ones act immature". It is my prayer that all those who write here for the edification of the saints show spiritual maturity whether they be scholars or not.

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 15 Jun 2014 8:26:29 AM Close

I am not interested in doing the role of a Sunday School teacher here.

Readers interested in teaching Basic Doctrines through this forum may do so to help you.

P.A.Paulose 

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 15 Jun 2014 12:25:25 PM Close

Playing ones own role is profitable and the wise discern it.

(At least please...please explain what is meant by the spiritual death of Christ BEFORE YOU QUIT. "This Sunday School student" would value it very much.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 18 Jun 2014 6:40:53 PM Close

Dear Paulose,

 

Your posting of 14 Jun 2014 is interesting.  If the answers you saw in the net are written with clear references to the verses from the Scriptures, then why did you write, “It does not fully answer the question?”  It is a small point.  If you are not interested to search the Scriptures, then I will not insist on it.  It is up to you.  My offer still stands.

 

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 19 Jun 2014 11:37:32 AM Close

Dear Brother Koshy,

                                   I welcome your participation in the discussion because I do appreciate the depth and ingenuity seen in your postings.

                                  The opening statement was not my own. I quoted carm.com’s conclusion. That was the best that I came across in my casual search. I said that it does not fully answer the question because the conclusion failed to give a straight answer to the question in terms of “YES” or “NO” and explain how the Lord fulfilled divine law as per Rom.6:23 in between  the time period of His Crucifixion and Proclamation (John 19:30)

P.A.Paulose

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 19 Jun 2014 5:39:28 PM Close

Dear brother Paulose,

 

In the portion you quoted in the initial frame communicates that the author was asking the question about the need for Christ to go to hell to accomplish atonement.  God was satisfied at the finished work of Christ on the cross.  There was nothing to be added to it.  It was complete and perfect.  However, the author stated that there are people who insist that Christ has to go to hell to complete the atonement for our sins.  This the author opposed.

 

Now, let me address the title of this thread.  It is about ‘spiritual death on the cross.’  What is this spiritual death?  In another thread, I wrote about three different kinds of death.  They are:

1.      The physical death of the separation of the body, soul, and spirit;

2.      The spiritual death of being dead in trespasses and sin;

3.      The second death of being cast into the Lake of Fire.

Since you have not defined what you meant by the term ‘spiritual death,’ please let me know about what I wrote.

 

If #2 above is your understanding about ‘spiritual death,’ then what do you think about what you quoted in the first frame?  I am asking only to understand what you comprehended from reading it.

 

I am restating what I wrote about death in the other thread.  We learn from the Scriptures that that there are various aspects to ‘death.’  Basically, it is a separation.  The death in the flesh, also known as physical death, is the separation of the body, soul, and spirit that were joined in creation and continues to be so in our conception.  Psalm 138:14-16 is one of the places in the Scriptures that tell us about it.  Man continues his spiritual death in trespasses and sins.  That we read in the New Testament (Ephesians 2:1).  During this death in trespasses and sins, the body, soul, and spirit remain united.  This could also be considered as similar to Adam’s life after he was sent out of the Garden of Eden till he died in his flesh.  We read about the second death in Revelation 20:11-15.  Before the second death the body, soul, and spirit that were separated at the death in the flesh (physical death) are united together and made stand before the Great White Throne to be cast into the Lake of Fire.  This is the second death.

 

What happens to the body, soul, and spirit at the death of the flesh or physical death?  Ecclesiastes 12:7 tells us that the spirit returns to God who gave it.  What happens to the soul at the death of the flesh or physical death?  When the spirit goes to God, the soul goes to place that is different from God.  Christ said that Lazarus went to Abraham’s bosom and the Rich Man went to a place of torture.  The New Testament saints are told that they will be with the Lord.  A place of torture is not a prison.  It is a place where the souls of unjust are kept and tortured.  The souls of men will go to different places according to their standing with God.  The bodies are placed on the earth and remains on the earth till their resurrection.     

 

The proponents of Christ going to hell to complete the atonement work may find their solace in 1 Peter 3:17-22.  It is willful manipulation to deceive the unsuspecting and innocent people.  Let me quote 1 Peter 3:17-22, “For it is better, if the will of God should will it, to suffer as well-doers than as evildoers, for Christ indeed has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God; being put to death in flesh, but made alive in the Spirit, in which also going He preached to the spirits which are in prison, heretofore disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noe while the ark was preparing, into which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water; which figure also now saves you , even baptism, not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the demand as before God of a good conscience, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, gone into heavens, angels and authorities and powers being subjected to Him.”  In 1 Peter 3:17-22, we do not read about the souls, but about the spirit that were disobedient.  Their disobedience was connected with the time of Noe.  There is no salvation for those spirits.  Only man receives salvation.    In 1 Peter 3:17-2, we read about disobedient spirits and souls of men.  Only eight souls were saved and we do not read about all other souls that perished.  The spirits that are mentioned are mentioned as the ‘sons of God’ in Genesis 6.  Their disobedience is mentioned in Genesis 6.  Christ did not pray for the spirits, evil or good.  He prayed for sinners.

 

In this connection, let me take a brief look into the different Greek words that are translated as ‘hell.’  They are:

1.      SHEOL – This is a Hebrew word that indicates ‘the unseen world.’  It is translated as ‘hell’ in Deuteronomy 32:22 and many other places.  The Psalmist prayed that the wicked should be burned in hell -- SHEOL (Psalm 9:17).  The Psalmist also prayed that God should not leave his soul in hell – SHEOL (Psalm 16:10).  This is reflected in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

2.      HADES --  This is a Greek word and it indicates ‘the unseen world.’  The Rich Man saw Lazarus in Abraham’s bosom, but they were separated by a chasm or gulf.  We read about this hell (HADES) in Matthew 11:23.  The same Greek word is used in Luke 16:23 about the Rich Man.  It is this Hades that delivers up the dead to stand before the Great White Throne to be cast into the Lake of Fire, because their names were wanting in the Book of Life (Revelation 20:13-14).

3.      GEHENNA – This Greek word indicates the ‘Valley of Hinnom,’ and is translated as ‘hell.’  There was a place, outside of Jerusalem, where the trash was dumped and set on fire.  As time passed, this fire continued to burn without going out, because there was a continuous dumping of trash to fuel it.  Worms and other creatures lived very close to that fire.  Christ compared the end of the disobedient man to be in such a place.  We read this in Matthew 5:22, 29, etc.

4.      TARTAROW --  It is pronounced ‘Tartaroo.’  This is commonly known as ‘Tartarus.’ This is the ‘deepest pit of gloom.’  In 2 Peter 2:4, it is translated as ‘hell.’  This is where the angels that sinned during the time of Noah are kept.

5.      PHULAKH – It is pronounced ‘Phulake,’ and translated as ‘hell.’  The meaning of this Greek word indicates that it is a ‘place of guarding’ prisoners.  In the New Testament, this Greek word appears for the first time in Matthew 5:25.  It also appears in 1 Peter 3:19.  When we compare 1 Peter 3:19 with 2 Peter 2:4, we come to learn that they are the same place.  We also learn from Revelation 20:7 that it is the place where Satan will be imprisoned for the 1,000 years.  He is not there now, but some of the evil angels who disobeyed God during the time of Noah are there.

6.      LIMNH TH KAIOMENH PURI – pronounced as ‘LIMNE TE KAIOMENE PURI.  Its meaning is ‘lake burning with fire.’  We usually mention this as the ‘Lake of Fire.’  This is where all those whose names are not written in the Book of Life will be cast into.  This is where they will meet Satan and his angles and continue in the second death.  We read about this in Revelation 20:14-15; 21:8.

 

If we consider all these different places as ‘hell,’ because we read that word in the English translations, then we may have difficulty to comprehend the truth.  We read in the epistles of Peter that Christ went to the prison where the disobedient spirits are kept and preached the gospel to them.  It was not the gospel of salvation, but it was the Gospel that the “Seed of the Woman” has bruised the head of the Old Serpent, their leader – Satan.  The good news was that they will be soon taken out that prison and will be cast into the Lake of Fire.  It may not be good news to them, but it is the good news of God to man that He preached to the spirits that made man to sin and brought the flood of Noah’s time.

 

Before I close, let me say that there was a time of separation of the Son of Man from God, while He was on the cross.  That happened before He declared, “It is finished.”  There was darkness for three hours and the Son of Man cried, “Eli, Eli, Lama Sabachthani.”  That is, “My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me.”  It is God who forsook Him.  The Triune God forsook the Son, while He was carrying my sins as my substitute.  [To me, this is personal.  You may do so, too.]  That is, even the Son forsook the Son.  I cannot understand this completely, but all I know is that when I stand in the place of another person, I cannot forsake myself.  My Lord Jesus Christ, the Son, was forsaken by the Triune God and it was for me to be called a son of God thru adoption into God’s family.  He went through the second death on the cross, so that I do not have to go through it.  I did that in Him.  In human time span, it was three hours.  For God who lives in eternity, including the Son, it was an eternal separation.  At that moment, the Son cried “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me.”  What a salvation!!  All I could say is, HALELUAH!!!   

 

I hope that this will be helpful to you.

 

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 20 Jun 2014 3:09:00 PM Close

Thanks Br. Koshy, for the good start of the discussion on the topic question.

Jesus died on the cross. Christ suffered both Physical and Spiritual death.

Physical death in its simple sense is the separation of the body, soul and spirit.

Spiritual death of Christ on the cross is the subject of our discussion.

1.       Spiritual death caused by disobedience to God : (cf James 1:15) We all know that Jesus NEVER disobeyed God. He never COMITTED a sin. He took over upon Himself the responsibility of suffering the consequences of the sins committed by those who were predestined to be justified by act substituting Himself in their place.

2.       Spiritual death on account of being of a particular nature by birth: (Eph. 4:18) We also know that Jesus did not inherit a fallen nature by birth. He was not alienated from God like other humans. He knew not sin.

But Jesus did suffer the Spiritual death in lieu of those predestined. Jesus was indeed alienated from the TRINITY. He suffered all that they were to ought to suffer in eternity. Christ suffered it all within the time frame that He was on the cross.

The wages of sins of the chosen was paid in full; and He declared-“It is finished”. To continue the discussion, Br. Koshy may please comment on the above and further expound on those sufferings in particular that Christ suffered consequent on His Spiritual death.

P.A.Paulose

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 20 Jun 2014 6:49:41 PM Close

Dear brother Paulose,

 

The initial posting of this thread contains a quote from a person that argued against a teaching that Christ went to hell to complete the atonement.  He was right in doing so.

 

I wrote about three kinds of deaths.  The spiritual death was defined as men being dead in trespasses and sin.  Christ was not a sinner.  The prince of the world found nothing in Him.  Being God, Christ was not dead in tress passes and sin.  He died the physical death.  He died the second death of being separated from God.  He did not die in trespasses and sins.  We should not say that He died the spiritual death.

 

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 20 Jun 2014 9:34:07 PM Close

Beware Brethren of false doctrines and false teachers.

Sunday school techers know sound basic doctrines. Now the non basic (higher=false) doctrines are revealed!!!!

Heb. 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Here we see the effort of brining in hypotheses and trying to establish them.

This is how students fail when they go for unscriptural extra reading.

Let us share the Gospel to the world.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

 

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 21 Jun 2014 7:48:29 AM Close

Dear brother Koshy,

I quote below some portions from your reply for reference:

Quote "Before I close, let me say that there was a time of separation of the Son of Man from God, while He was on the cross.  That happened before He declared, “It is finished.” It is God who forsook Him.  The Triune God forsook the Son, while He was carrying my sins as my substitute. My Lord Jesus Christ, the Son, was forsaken by the Triune God and it was for me to be called a son of God thru adoption into God’s family.  He went through the second death on the cross, so that I do not have to go through it………..  For God who lives in eternity, including the Son, it was an eternal separation." Unquote 19/6/2014

Quote "He died the physical death.  He died the second death of being separated from God.  He did not die in trespasses and sins.  We should not say that He died the spiritual death."Unquote 20/6/2014

Thanks brother. In compliance, I refrain from saying that Christ died a Spiritual death; I correct myself and say that Christ suffered, in addition to the Physical death, the Second death on the cross--the separation from the Triune God.

I request you to clarify the following for a clear understanding of the process of redemption and substitutionary atonement accomplished on the cross.

(1) When was Christ separated from the Triune God? Was it before or after His Physical death? (You have already stated above that it happened before the Physical death)

(2) What were the consequences of that separation? What were the specific sufferings that Jesus underwent during that separation?

(3) Did God the Son continue in the Trinity even during that period of separation?

(4) In the constitution of a human being, is there any difference between “spirit inbreathed by God” and the “spirit” as mentioned in 1 Thess 5:23?

(5) When Jesus was raised from the dead, what constituents of the person of Jesus were resurrected? Was it Spirit, soul and body OR the soul and body only?

I look forward to reading from you soon.

Note for you:  The answer by carm.com did not address the question and hence irrelevant for our discussion. We are not discussing it anymore.

Note for others:  Objective of posting a topic is not to exhibit one’s erudition (or lack of it) on the subject. The purpose is edification of self and others. A discussion in this forum is an exchange of views; a process of learning intended to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion in the light of correct interpretation of the Word. There is no use of unduly disrupting and jeering. If you have nothing constructive to contribute to the discussion, it is better to keep aloof.

P.A.Paulose

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 21 Jun 2014 9:36:50 AM Close

Dear Paulose

I value your scholarship. Here entering into a discussion in a deceptive way is questioned. If you had mentioned in the beginning your view concerning the topic, there would have been clarity. However false doctrines need not be accepted as it is presented and the less learned should not be carried away by it.

There are various questions that we raise cannot have answers as they are not revealed or in many cases cannot be understood by man. One example is that of Moses who desired to see the glory of God and we know how much was revealed to him by God.

We should have an approach of verifying our views in the light of the word of God. I am partly relieved that you have a flexible approach when things are brought to light. If any of my statements have offended you in any manner, my apologies.

Let your exchange of views with George continue and I hope that we see the right (not satisfactory)conclusion. In due course I may present my views on this thread.

 

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 21 Jun 2014 12:58:57 PM Close

Dear brother Paulose,

Thank you.  It may take some time, may be next week (DV), to provide the answers to your questions.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 22 Jun 2014 4:36:13 PM Close

                                                        An open request and invitation

I invite all the knowledgeable contributors who have made valuaable contributions in the past to come back to the forum and request you all to participate in this discussion.

beracah, tomj,moses2006,avoid legalism,upadeshiappachan,muthu, paul-thomas.... please come back and contribute!

P.A.Paulose

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 27 Jun 2014 6:16:45 PM Close

"If you look at me as an odd man, then anything I write in disagreement will be an undue disruption to you. It is not right for you to say that I and any other like me should keep aloof."

You wrongly and unwarrantedly assume so. I say again "you need to state and establish your stand as well. Your say on the subject is the essence of your contribution to the discussion." 

You need not have to wait to see what others say!

P.A.Paulose

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 2 Jul 2014 7:18:42 PM Close

Dear brother Paulose,

 

You wrote on 21 Jun 2014, “I request you to clarify the following for a clear understanding of the process of redemption and substitutionary atonement accomplished on the cross.

(1) When was Christ separated from the Triune God? Was it before or after His Physical death? (You have already stated above that it happened before the Physical death)

(2) What were the consequences of that separation? What were the specific sufferings that Jesus underwent during that separation?

(3) Did God the Son continue in the Trinity even during that period of separation?

(4) In the constitution of a human being, is there any difference between “spirit inbreathed by God” and the “spirit” as mentioned in 1 Thess 5:23?

(5) When Jesus was raised from the dead, what constituents of the person of Jesus were resurrected? Was it Spirit, soul and body OR the soul and body only?

I look forward to reading from you soon.”

 

Let me address the #4 before I go to the first.  I have not read about “spirit inbreathed by God.”  What is it?  Could you explain?  Let me explain my difficulty.  When I hear about ‘in-breathing,’ then it is about a person or a creature taking-in the air from the air that surrounds it.  When I hear about ‘out-breathing,’ then it is about breathing out what is inside a person or a creature.

 

Question #1:  “When was Christ separated from the Triune God? Was it before or after His Physical death? (You have already stated above that it happened before the Physical death)”  It was as the Son, He was separated from God.  I wrote about this, before.  Let me repeat, when He was separated from God, He cried “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?”  Could you read the portion from the gospel and make the conclusion about the time in which that occurred?  It was before He made the triumphant cry, “It is finished.”  Your question should be considered in that context.  I also wrote about His physical death.  Please read what I wrote before.

 

Question #2: “What were the consequences of that separation? What were the specific sufferings that Jesus underwent during that separation?”   The result of the forsaking of God was a separation from God.  In Revelation 20, we read that the second death at the Great White Throne is the casting them into the Lake of Fire.  Those who are cast into the Lake of fire are eternally separated from God.  When the Son was forsaken by God, when He was carrying my sins, it was an eternal separation as God is eternal.  What the Son went through at that forsaking by God was all my judgments.

 

Question #3: “Did God the Son continue in the Trinity even during that period of separation?”  He is God and the Son was forsaken by God for me.  That happened, when He was my substitute.  He never ceased to be God, even for an instant of man’s time.  That is because He is the Eternal God.  He does not cease to be God, however small an interval we are making that to be.

 

Question #5:  “When Jesus was raised from the dead, what constituents of the person of Jesus were resurrected? Was it Spirit, soul and body OR the soul and body only?

I look forward to reading from you soon.”  There is a flaw in your question.  That is, if you are considering the resurrection of Christ was only in soul and body, then you are considering a partial resurrection.  When a person thinks about partial resurrection of Christ in soul and body, then he is also considering a victorious Satan.  When you ask these questions, I wonder about the purpose of your question.  Christ’s resurrection from among the dead was not an incomplete resurrection.  Remember, He committed His spirit to the Father.  He went to preach the gospel to the spirits in prison and that was in His soul.  His body was buried in the earth by men.  That body was raised from among the dead by ‘the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.’  It was a complete resurrection.

 

When you wrote “When Jesus was raised from the dead, what constituents of the person of Jesus were resurrected?”  Are you thinking that only part of Him was resurrected?  Lord Jesus Christ was not an object that was assembled by parts as a toy or a machine.  No man is assembled by parts.  If you read Psalm 139, it will tell you about each and every man that is being formed in the mother’s womb.  That is not an assembly by parts.  Please stop thinking about “constituents” being resurrected.  When the dead were raised by the prophets, apostles, and the Lord, they were not raised by some of their ‘constituents.’  They were raised as a whole.

 

Having said the above, let me try to explain about death.  All human beings are born being dead in trespasses and sin (Ephesians 2:1). That is, all are dead in our offenses and sins.  We were disobedient to God and were at enmity with God.  The portion that is allotted for us was to die once and then stand for judgment (Hebrews 9:27).  At the Great White throne all dead are brought to stand for judgment.  They were judged according to their works as written in the books and being found that their names are not written in the book of life.  They are to be condemned and will be cast into the Lake of Fire.  It is written that there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1).  In other words, those who are in Christ will not stand at the Great White Throne to be judged and condemned to be cast into the Lake of Fire.  How are we in Christ to be saved from the condemnation and to be cast into the Lake of Fire?  One of the places we will find the answer is in Colossians 2:9-15.  We learn a few things in those verses:

1.      He is the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

2.      We are complete in Him;

3.      In Him we are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands;

4.      Our body of sins are put away by the circumcision of Christ;

5.      We are buried with Him in baptism;

6.      We are risen with Him through the faith of the operation of God;

7.      God is the God who raised Him from among the dead;

8.      We are quickened together with Him because of the baptism and circumcision;

9.      All our trespasses are forgiven;

10.  All then ordinances that were against us are taken out and nailed it to His cross.

 

Those who are not baptized with Him are those who try to modify the eternal security of our salvation that we received by being in Christ.  They borrow teachings from other religions and modify them and insist that their newly created teachings are to be followed.  Knowing this, God inspired Apostle Paul to write in Colossians 2:8, that we should be beware of such teachers and their teachings.  An example is the modified Hindu teaching of Karma Marg.  The new twist to Karma Marg is the ‘Conditional Security’ (CS) of salvation.  We are asked to be beware of those teachers.

 

We read about this baptism that we have in Christ in Ephesians 4:5.  There we read about One Lord, one faith, and one baptism.  We are also told that we are all baptized by one Spirit into one body (1 Corinthians 12:13).  This one body is mentioned as the one body of Christ in 1 Corinthians 12:12.  Those who are baptized by the one Spirit into the body of Christ will not stand before the Great White throne to be cast into the Lake of Fire.  The only reason is that we have the circumcision in Christ and we are baptized into His body.  The Son was condemned to die for you and me on the cross and God forsook Him when He carried our sins.  We died with Him. We rose with Him.  Now those who are in Christ have no condemnation.  We are one in the body of Christ that was judged and condemned.  When He rose from among the dead, He is on the other side of the judgment and condemnation.  We are also with Him, on the other side.  Those who remain on this side of the judgment and condemnation will die before they stand before the Great White Throne.  They will be condemned for the second death.

 

God forsook the Him before He physically died.  His physical death came after He stood condemned in our place.  Those who are in Him are free from further condemnation and judgment.  Those who are not having their names written in the Book of Life will be judged and condemned at the Great White Throne.  It is appointed to them to have the physical death first and then the judgment. Christ died the second death on the cross, before he committed His Spirit to the Father and placed His head on His chest and died the physical death.  To those who are in Christ, they do not have to have the second death, because the son suffered that for them, on the cross.  After that He had the physical death.  Those who are in Christ should expect the physical death, because they are still in their bodies with sinful nature.  That will be removed at the resurrection, which takes place when we hear His voice and the trumpet call.  The spiritual death of those who are in Christ is annulled, when the Son completed His work to its perfection.  However, the ‘Conditional Security (CS) Theology’ tries to teach that the work of the Son on the cross was neither perfect nor complete.  They claim that human efforts are an integral part for man’s salvation.  Thus they make the perfect gift of eternal salvation from God to be imperfect and they need man’s works to make it perfect.  That is the Hindu teaching of Karma Marg – salvation thru the works of man.  It is similar to the seeking of Arjuna’s help by the Suras and the Hindu gods to defeat the Asuras.  Beware of those, CS proponents, who call evil good and good evil; and prefer darkness for light and reject the light.    

 

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 4 Jul 2014 1:06:59 PM Close

Dear brother Paulose,

 

I have to go into hiding.  A threat has been issued against me and I should take refuge for a month or so.  I will (DV) continue, when the threat is over.

 

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 6 Jul 2014 9:03:22 PM Close

Dear Paulose,

You stated that "Jesus did suffer the Spiritual death in lieu of those predestined".

When man sinned he died spiritually. There is no need for another spiritual death for spiritually dead mankind. Jesus came to quicken the spiritually dead men.

Jesus Christ came to take away the sin of the world and not for some as you say. It is a false philosophy.

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 7 Jul 2014 5:22:31 AM Close

To take away the sin of the world, it is necessary that the redeemer should fulfil the Righteousness of God in its totality.Sin, as you rightly said, causes spiritual death and the consequence of spiritual death is separation from God. So the Redeemer sholud have totally suffered the consequence i.e. the separation from God, the consequence of sin that the sinners were ought to suffer. Do you agree? If not justify youe disagreement.

According to you, Jesus has taken away the sins of the world. That implies that there is no sin in the world anymore! Once the penalty has been already paid in full, there is no scope for a second judgment against the offenders. So are you saying that no one will ever stand judgment anymore. Is that the "Right Philosophy" that you profess?

P.A.Paulose

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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 7 Jul 2014 7:29:18 PM Close

Dear Readers:

This is a quote from Mr. Koshy - Quote "Before I close, let me say that there was a time of separation of the Son of Man from God, while He was on the cross.  That happened before He declared, “It is finished.”  There was darkness for three hours and the Son of Man cried, “Eli, Eli, Lama Sabachthani.”  That is, “My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me.”  It is God who forsook Him.  The Triune God forsook the Son, while He was carrying my sins as my substitute.  [To me, this is personal.  You may do so, too.]  That is, even the Son forsook the Son.  I cannot understand this completely, but all I know is that when I stand in the place of another person, I cannot forsake myself.  My Lord Jesus Christ, the Son, was forsaken by the Triune God and it was for me to be called a son of God thru adoption into God’s family.  He went through the second death on the cross, so that I do not have to go through it.  I did that in Him.  In human time span, it was three hours.  For God who lives in eternity, including the Son, it was an eternal separation.  At that moment, the Son cried “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me.” End Quote

There are so many errors of comprehension and scriptural interpretation that I do not know where to begin!!

First, "forsaken" does not imply "separation". Yes, Lord Jesus was forsaken by the Father - but we can never and should never state that this means that the Son was "seperated" from the Father. The most basic of theological doctrines is teaching of the oneness of the Diety. Jesus said very clearly, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). Ancient Israel was taught, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" (Duet 6:4). To charge that the Son was seperated from the Father, no matter for how small a duration, a direct affront to the scriptural principle of divine unity within the triune God. The Father and the Son and the Spirit are one God and inseparable from one another. But in His humanity, as He hung upon the cross, He was left alone by the Father and He carried our sin and its guilt alone. The Father did not partake of our sin and guilt - the Son alone did. The Father did not partake of our penal judgment - the Son alone did. The Father did not partake of our just death under law - the Son alone did. That is what must be understood by the expression, "forsaken". Not only was He alone in His suffering, He was forsaken to the extend that the Father did not step in to rescue His Son. It was God will and the Son suffered alone and forsaken of the Father.

Second, it is most foolish to say that "even the Son forsook the Son" - this statement is an affront to the integrity of the Son of God. In denouning the scribes and pharisees who credited His power to cast out demons to Beelzebub, the Lord observed, " If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand." (Mk 3:24) When someone says that the Son forsook the Son, it is tatamount to saying that the Son was divided against Himself. Statements like this is the product of mental models that misalinged with scripture, but is aligned with worldly "scholastic" thinking, pretending to understand the divine mysteries of God. Where as even mighty Paul was content to say, "How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!" (Rom 11:33). At no point did the Son forsake Himself - He was, is and always is the "Holy One" as Paul said, "Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." When the scripture calls Him "Holy One" - some have the audacity to separate Son from Son and make Him a "holy Two".

Third, it absolutely unscriptural to state that there was an "eternal separation" between the Father and Son. There was nor ever will be a separation between the Father and the Son, because they are One God. To say that God lives in eternity and take that to mean eternal separation between the Son and the Father is colossal mis-interpretation of Isa 57:15 and Matt 27:46. God lives in eternity means, He lives for ever and ever. NASB has an better translation of Isa 57:15 than the KJV. Eternity is not a tangible location, it is intangible description of an unending duration of time. God cannot "dwell" in an intangible metaphysical description of time, eternity, but He lives from eternity to eternity. What unsriptural blunders are propagated by men who do not care for the scripture, to read and understand it "AS IT IS WRITTEN"!!

Fourthly, to state that Christ went through a "second death" is a gross violation of scripture as written in Rom 6:10. There we read, "For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God." Yes He died, but only ONCE and that ONCE was unto sin. He did not experience a second death. How unscriptural to state things like this!! How casually and with what authority does this man violate sciptural teachings to replace them with his on ideas!!

Readers, beware what is written and please check against scripture what is written. This includes everything I have written as well.

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 7 Jul 2014 9:53:53 PM Close

 Dear Paulose,

1. What is "Spiritual Death" and what caused this? - Where is it mentioned in the Bible?

2. You said" the redeemer should fulfil the Righteousness of God in its totality" - Where is this mentioned in the Bible?

3. You said "So the Redeemer sholud have totally suffered the consequence". Where is this mentioned in the Bible?

4. You stated "According to you, Jesus has taken away the sins of the world. That implies that there is no sin in the world anymore! Once the penalty has been already paid in full, there is no scope for a second judgment against the offenders. So are you saying that no one will ever stand judgment anymore".

With the above statement no. 4 I think you need to study the basic Sunday school lessons before entering into such discussions.If you would like to know my understanding about it as per the Word of God, please let me know.

 5. You asked me "Is that the "Right Philosophy" that you profess?".

I don't have a philosophy to derive from the Word of God and do not profess either. I try to learn the Scriptures prayerfully.

If any brother who advise me of anything wrong or any errors in what I post, I would be glad to acknowledge it and correct myself if it is verified against the Scriptures. Please donot hesitate to do so in the love of God.

 

Dear kj

I am still awaiting your answers to the questions I raised in the past.

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 8 Jul 2014 5:14:24 AM Close

To Moses2006'

                      You have vehemently refuted a portion of Br. Koshy's mail and justified your say scripturally and logically.I can understand Br. Koshy's state of mind whilst he was writing the quoted portion. Thanks for your participation.

                      Well, coming back to the topic question, do you have a definite answer to the question in terms of YES or NO and the requisisite justification for your answer? As a clarification to the question I add- By Spiritual death all that I mean is -"separation from God". I reword the question. Please consider the question as follows:

"Did Jesus Christ suffer separation from God while He was on the Cross?"

While answering the question please try to explain how the the Divine justice in terms of Romans 6/23 was fulfilled.

To Guide,

"If you would like to know my understanding about it as per the Word of God, please let me know."

Yes. Please go ahead and answer the topic question as per your understanding as per the word of God. Consider also the clarification given above.

P.A>Paulose

 

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 8 Jul 2014 8:18:09 AM Close

Paulose,

Please answer the questions I asked before I give my explanations.

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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 8 Jul 2014 1:44:18 PM Close

Dear Paulose,

You asked, "Did Christ suffer spiritual death on the cross?"

Answer is an emphatic "no"!!

Spiritual death is by definition, disconnection from the "Spirit-life" of God. As the Lord said in John 6:63, it is Spirit that gives spiritual life, which is in essence a partaking of the life of God. When Adam sinned, he disconnected himself and all his descendants from the Spirit-life of God. Thus all men are spiritually dead upon arrival in this world - disconnected from the life of God. All men are spiritually dead.

The Lord Jesus was born of the Spirit of God, concieved by the Spirit of God (Luke 1:35). He was baptized and empowered by the Spirit of God (Luke 3:22). The very words He spoke were life giving, filled with the Spirit (John 6:63). His works were a demonstration of the power of the Spirit (Luke 4:14). Even His death was a spotless offering of the Spirit, offered before God on our behalf (Heb 9:14). His work of preaching to the souls in prison, was a work of God's Spirit. His ressurection also was demonstration of the power of the Spirit (1 Pet 3:18). He lives for ever and ever, in the power of the Spirit.

Isaiah says this about the total ministry of the Lord Jesus, "The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord." (Isa 11:2).

At no point in His life, death or ressurection, was the Lord Jesus disconnected from the Spirit of God and the life of God. He is the eternal Son, the very manifestation of the life giving Spirt filled Word of God. Therefore it is unscriptural to say that He experienced spiritual death. His death was physical death, demonstrating His own power to hand over His Spirit into the hands of the Father. The Father and the Son are One. The Lord Jesus never went through an experience like Adam, who committed disobedience and experienced spiritual disconnection from the life of God, i.e spiritual death.

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 9 Jul 2014 4:20:39 AM Close

Dear Moses 2006

Thanks for your answer. You have assigned literal meaning to the concept of “spiritual death” to mean cessation of spirit-life. I think “spirit” of every human being is eternal. If you agree with me, then question of Spiritual death (in the sense of the meaning that you have assigned to it) does not arise at all. In that case, scriptural evidence that you have provided also becomes superfluous. If you haven’t deliberately ignored my question whether or not Jesus Christ was separated from the Triune God when He was on the cross, please do try to give an answer.

In the meantime to continue the discussion, I seek some clarification from you which will enable me to fully and correctly understand the reply you have given.

“He was left alone by the Father and He carried our sin and its guilt alone. The Father did not partake of our sin and guilt - the Son alone did. (Your mail of 7th July) and, “The Father and the Son are One (Your mail of 8th July)”

Unless the Son is separated from the Father how is it practical for the Son to do it alone without the Father? What about the Holy Spirit?

Secondly, you have mentioned in your reply “His death was physical death, demonstrating His own power to hand over His Spirit into the hands of the Father.”

Does that mean that all that Jesus suffered for redemption of the mankind was His physical death and nothing more?

How could Jesus die a physical death if He was not separated from God? Even the physical death is the direct result of Sin. If Adam was permitted to eat from the tree of life he would have become an immortal (ever living) sinner.  According to 1John 3:5 --in Him is no sin and according to 1Pet 2:22 He did no sin. But 2 Cor 5:21 says “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

 Thus Jesus could die a physical death. But then could He continue in the Trinity in the form of a sin-bearing God?

I wholeheartedly await your replies which I value much.

P.A.Paulose 

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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 9 Jul 2014 5:48:12 PM Close

Dear Paulose,

Quote, "Thanks for your answer. You have assigned literal meaning to the concept of “spiritual death” to mean cessation of spirit-life. I think “spirit” of every human being is eternal. If you agree with me, then question of Spiritual death (in the sense of the meaning that you have assigned to it) does not arise at all. In that case, scriptural evidence that you have provided also becomes superfluous."

You are confounding two unrelated concepts and coming up with invalid conclusions - (1) man's spirit which is from God and (2) man's spiritual death which is from Satan

Man's spirit is a part of his created being, along with the body and the soul. The spirit is our faculty which we use for our religious and spiritual experiences - such as faith, hope, peace, worship, etc. We connect to God through our spirit. The spirit is also the force of life within us, that makes the body and soul alive. Whether the human spirit is eternal or not is debatable. Eccl 12:7 says that upon death, a man's spirit returns to God, but does not tell us what God does with the returned spirit. God who created the spirit can also destroy it. Ultimately, only God Himself is eternal and everything He created cannot compare to Him.

Spiritual death is a condition, not an entity. Even though the phrase "spiritual death" is not in the scripture, it is generally understood in the sense that I have stated previously. Apostle Paul wrote that "in Adam all die" (1 Cor 15:22). That death is first of all spiritual death, then physical death and finally eternal death. These 3 deaths are the wages of sin (Rom 6:23). Spiritually dead man still has a spirit, with the originally created ability to experience the divine things of God. Fallen man is called spiritually dead, because he is alienated from the life of God (Eph 4:18). This death is a condition of the soul of man (not his spirit). Man's soul is separated from divine things of God, acts against the divine things of God, tries to thwart the will of God and is selfishly oriented to itself and self fulfillment. In this regard, the soul of fallen man is identical to the heart of Satan. The fallen soul dominates the spirit and refuses to allow the spirit to interact with its Creator. This is the natural condition of all unregenerated men.

Your original question, "Did Christ suffer spiritual death on the cross?" should be answered with an understanding of what 'spiritual death' means, not from an examination of the longevity of the human spirit. In Christ there is no fallen nature and His soul was fully obedient to the Spirit of God in Him. So, as I explained earlier, there is no scope of 'spiritual death' in Christ.

 

Quote, "If you haven’t deliberately ignored my question whether or not Jesus Christ was separated from the Triune God when He was on the cross, please do try to give an answer."

No I have not ignored you question. I was quite clear in my response posted 8 Jul 2014 13:44:18, that there never was "separation" of Christ, the Son from God, the Father. Christ is in the term 'Triune God'.

 

Quote, "Unless the Son is separated from the Father how is it practical for the Son to do it alone without the Father? What about the Holy Spirit?"

Your question is indeed a mystery as much as the doctrine of trinity is itself a mystery. Jesus told an enquiring Philip, who wanted to see the Father, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip?" Philip, in asking Jesus to show the Father, was in effect asking the question at the Father Himself!! Jesus continued, "..I am in the Father, and the Father in Me..The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me.." (John 14: 8-11)

Is it "practical" that the Father is in the Son, and the Son is in the Father simultaneously? Not by human reasoning, but our intellect is far too weak to grasp the deep things of God. The scripture asserts the oneness of the triune God, yet at the same time, it also teaches us that the Son suffered alone for our sins (not the Father and not the Spirit). Hard to understand practically what that means, but it is true. You better believe it!

 

Quote, "Secondly, you have mentioned in your reply “His death was physical death, demonstrating His own power to hand over His Spirit into the hands of the Father.” Does that mean that all that Jesus suffered for redemption of the mankind was His physical death and nothing more?"

Jesus physical "death" is not in itself what saves us, but the manner in which He died - He died in suffering. He died a painful death. As per Isa 53, it was His wounds, His despisement, His humiliation, His sorrow, His oppression, His strickenness, His beatings, His afflictions, His chastisement, His bruises, and His stripes - these are what healed us and brought us peace. These manifold sufferings put His soul to grief and that grieved soul was the offering and the labor of His soul is what purchased our freedom. He died as a sin offering before God, but He declared "It is finished" before His death. So, we know it was not just the death, but His suffering before death that redeems us.

 

Quote, "How could Jesus die a physical death if He was not separated from God?"

Jesus said, "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father (John 10:18)” So clearly, Jesus, can lay down His life, and (while still being dead) He has the power to take back His life. Only God can do that, and since He is God, we should not be surprised at it! So, we should not look at Jesus' death, to find similarity with the deaths of men. Men die involuntarily, out of no control themselves. Jesus death was itself a miracle - He laid down His own life and He (while being in a state of death) took His life back! At no point in His death experience, was He separated from God, or ever stopped being God Himself.

I hope you will excuse me, if I do not continue to post to this thread. I am very busy and have other things to attend to. Hope all I have written will benefit you and other readers, spiritually. Thanks!

 

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 10 Jul 2014 5:27:53 AM Close

Just an observation

I see that many a learned brothers and the pioneers who started this forum are reluctant to contribute in the discussion even when it comes to discussion on serious theological issues that benefit many a true seekers.

Is this because of the forum is dominated by unscrupulous and undesirable elements and their frivolous postings going uncensored? 

P.A.Paulose

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 10 Jul 2014 6:29:04 AM Close

Dear Moses 2006

You have spoken truth of your heart. Thanks for the beautiful reply. Please try to come back to the discussion at your earliest leisure. I add some of my responses quoting from your mail.

“Hard to understand practically what that means, but it is true. You better believe it!”

We are in the same boat, dear brother. We, being believers and Disciples of Christ are supposed to be the defenders of the faith. Can this answer convince an unbeliever? Is this a piece of good Christian Apologetics before a Muslim? Are we taking a stand- "that which can't be cured is to be endured"?

As per Isa 53, it was His wounds, His despisement, His humiliation, His sorrow, His oppression, His strickenness, His beatings, His afflictions, His chastisement, His bruises, and His stripes - these are what healed us and brought us peace. …. He died as a sin offering before God, but He declared "It is finished" before His death. So, we know it was not just the death, but His suffering before death that redeems us.

I slightly differ from your opinion. I believe that when Jesus was offered as a sin offering He was alienated from God. He underwent all the the consequence of our sins, the sufferings that we were ought to suffer, thereby fulfilling the Righteousness of God in its totality. And when it was all completed He declared “it is finished” and accomplished our redemption.

At no point in His death experience, was He separated from God, or ever stopped being God Himself.

Yes. I concur with you. You may ask why I contradict myself. This is Theological issue that I want the contributors to focus upon.

P.A.Paulose

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Reply by : guide   View Profile   Since : 10 Jul 2014 9:02:56 PM Close

Is "Spiritual death" mentioned in the Scriptures? 

I think palatty has now enough information for his theory.

 

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 14 Jul 2014 4:15:41 AM Close

The spirit does doesn’t die. (It is another matter that the creator is Almighty and hence has the power to destroy the spirit).Spiritual death is not same as death of the spirit.(meaning cessation of the spirit). Spiritual death is separation from God. It can’t assume any other meaning. Jesus on the cross was separated from God; that is what it means when one says “Christ died a spiritual death on the cross”. If so how do I substantiate that God the Son was NEVER separated from God? My understanding is as follows. I am open to correction.

God is a Spirit. (Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit: …)  The Spirit has no soul or body. God the Son incarnated and took the form of a man in accordance with the plan of God revealed in Isaiah to fulfill 50:6 “I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.” and Isa 53:5 “But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.” etc.

A physical body was ESSENTIAL to accomplish the plan of God. This plan of God was confirmed by Jesus Himself in Lk 24:25-26 “Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

The moment of separation is seen in Matthew 27:46 “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?".  Jesus bore such a severe physical torture when He was whipped and nailed in the most sensitive parts of His body. He did not cry out then. But under the most unbearable spiritual agony of separation from God, He cried out when He was forsaken by God.

The wages of sin is death. (Rom 6:23). That is the divine law. God doesn’t compromise His own righteousness. Separation from God brings about experience of hell. A state of torment where one suffers like a worm that dieth not in a fire that quencheth not (from Mt 9:44, 46, 48 etc). I am of the opinion that the worst ever possible agony that a sinner suffers is the remorse- a sense of loss for having wasted away the great opportunity of salvation, as a result of one’s disregard of the golden opportunity that was available in one's sojourn on the planet earth. (Mat 13:50 there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.).

The spirit does not experience that suffering. Even in humans it is the soul of the sinner that experiences hell. In my opinion, Jesus in His human incarnation did possess a soul and It is His soul that was separated from God and “descended to hell” for a purpose whatsoever it is. Even the soul never went down to hell to undergo the sufferings.The soul of Christ did undergo every bit of the sufferings that His chosen ones were ought to suffer, right on the cross itself and He remained a human being, a composite entity consisting of spirit, soul and body until its total completion and until when He confirmed it bu declaring “it is finished”.

It seems Br. Koshy had faced a dilemma in explaining how the God the Son was separated from Himself on the cross. My understanding of the situation is...His Spirit was NEVER separated from God. Therefore, God being a Spirit, God the Son was never separated from the Triune God (a Spirit) even for a moment. God the Son is truly the Jehovah-the triune God-one with the Father. The Trinity remained intact for ever.

P.A.Paulose

 

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 15 Jul 2014 5:52:34 AM Close

Dear All,

           In a discussion there can be wrong opinions, wrong belief, wrong philosophy expressed. It is all because of the lack of knowledge of truth. So if you find the philosophy wrong, please lead us all to the the right philosophy in the light of the word of God. Then only the objective of this forum is served.

           I am a learner- not a teacher. I am always open for correction. I gladly accept correction and remain obliged to anyone that leads me to the perfect truth in the light of the word of God.

P.A.Paulose

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Aug 2014 5:56:18 PM Close

Dear brother Paulose,

 

Spiritual death is not exactly the separation from God.  Separation from God is the real death.  Since the Son was separated or forsaken by God, while He was on the cross, those who are in Him will not be separated from God at any time.  That is what we read in Romans 8:35, “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?”  The CS proponents teach that the sin will separate us from the love of God as stated in John 3:16.  That is the problem associated with Karma marg.  The permanent separation from God is written as the ‘second death’ in Revelation.  Spiritual death is what is mentioned as dead in trespasses and sin.  Spiritual death is not the death of the spirit, but it is we being dead in trespasses and sin.  The Son was paying the righteous demands of God on our behalf as the sin offering.  He was not judged and punished for His sins, but for our sins.

 

Among the creation of the 5th and 6th days, man is the only creature who was given a spirit.  In creation, man became a living soul and not a living spirit.  What we generally referred to as ‘spiritual death’ is not the death of the spirit or that of the soul or that of the body.  It is a state of separation of the spirit from God and that was accomplished by the rebellion of man to be equal with God.  Christ, the Son of Man, was not subjected to that spiritual death, but He hu8mbled Himself to our image and likeness.  There was no sin in Him.  He was without sin.  Therefore, attributing some sort of a spiritual death to One who is a perfect man and prefect God is one of the worst things that a believer could do.

 

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Aug 2014 5:57:11 PM Close

Dear ‘moses2006,’

 

It is true that you began without knowing where you should begin and you made it clear in your posting.  When a person does that, he is engaged tampering with his ignorance on things that should have known.  In other words, you are doing something without knowing what you are doing. I am glad that I got another opportunity to teach you on this Forum.

 

On 7 Jul 2014, you wrote after quoting me, “There are so many errors of comprehension and scriptural interpretation that I do not know where to begin!!”  After that you wrote, “First, "forsaken" does not imply "separation". Yes, Lord Jesus was forsaken by the Father - but we can never and should never state that this means that the Son was "seperated" from the Father.”  The word “forsaken” implies ‘separation,’ but ‘separation’ need not imply ‘forsaken.’  The Scriptures tell us that He was forsaken by God.  When you say that He was forsaken by the Father, do you mean that that was all there was in His cry about being forsaken by God?  He already cried to His Father, addressing the Father, to forgive the actions of men.  He also addressed the Father, when He committed His spirit in to the Father’s hand.  In between, He addressed God and not the Father about being forsaken.  During that separation of forsaking, the land was covered in darkness.  Do you know the meaning of the English word ‘forsaken?’  Apparently, you do not.  Two of the meanings of the English word ‘forsake,’ is “to give up,” or “to leave altogether.”  That suggests that when a person is forsaken by another, there is a ‘giving up’ or a ‘leaving altogether,’ which is a separation between the two involved.  There is another kind of separation without forsaking the persons involved.  That we read in Acts 13:2.

 

As usual, you charged, “The most basic of theological doctrines is teaching of the oneness of the Deity. Jesus said very clearly, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). Ancient Israel was taught, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" (Duet 6:4). To charge that the Son was seperated from the Father, no matter for how small a duration, a direct affront to the scriptural principle of divine unity within the triune God.”  Do you know that Jesus Christ was the perfect Man and perfect God?  He had the two natures in Him.  You should learn about the humanity and deity of Jesus Christ.  If you want, I will be glad to spend some time in teaching you about this truth from the Scriptures.  You quote Deuteronomy 6:4 without knowing that the Hebrew word translated as “God” is plural and that God in plurality is “one Jehovah.”  This is the first lesson on this subject and that is provided even before you asked for my help. 

 

You also wrote, “…The Father did not partake of our penal judgment - the Son alone did. The Father did not partake of our just death under law - the Son alone did. That is what must be understood by the expression, "forsaken". Not only was He alone in His suffering, He was forsaken to the extent that the Father did not step in to rescue His Son. It was God will and the Son suffered alone and forsaken of the Father.”  Let me remind you that your interpretation of “My God, My God, Why have you forsaken Me?” does not say about ‘God the Father.’  It does not read “My Father, My Father, …”  It reads only about “My God.”  There is a great difference.  That difference was placed in those words by the Son.  You are negating the difference that was placed by the Son. In other words, you are correcting the Son, who is God.  The “God” in that cry of the Son is the Triune God.

 

You continued in your second point, “…When someone says that the Son forsook the Son, it is tatamount to saying that the Son was divided against Himself…”  I am lost!  I need your help.  Could you tell me about this “tatamount?”  Is that a mount erected by Tata?  I know, you have already mentioned that you do not know where to start.  Allow me to show your subtlety in arguments.  I never wrote that “the Son was divided against Himself.” I did not even use the word ‘divided.’  It is your work.  In making the use of the word ‘divided,’ you even brought Beelzebub into the picture.  Now your subtlety is: when I wrote about ‘separation’ as an explanation, you changed separation-to-divide-and-also-to Beelzebub.   You cannot show that expression even in the quote you made from what I wrote at the beginning of your posting of 7 Jul 2014.  It must be your tantamount statement to tantalize by tantrum.

 

Your statement shows that you have not understood the truth that what the Son is capable of doing.  Being God, He is not limited to human experiences of yours or mine.  He is above all those experiences and He could forsake Himself, being Holy and sinless.  Being God, He could forsake Himself for me, a human being.  I cherish that cry that He made for me, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me.”  I could repeat after Apostle Paul, “O the depth of riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!  How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways” (Romans 11:33).  That forsaking of the Son of Man when He was lifted up by the Triune God is so deep and I cannot fathom its depth.  That forsaking was unsearchable by all my understanding about His judgment.  It is beyond my ability to trace His ways.  On the other hand, you find is so shallow, searchable, and traceable.  You must fear god, not because you learned it as a command from another human being.  If you the clay and He is the Potter, with your tantalizing tantrum, you are esteeming the Potter as the clay.  You should not pervert the judgment of the righteous God by your futility.

 

You continued your second point, “At no point did the Son forsake Himself - He was, is and always is the "Holy One" as Paul said, "Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."”  Do you know that I was writing about what my Lord said while He was my substitute and being lifted up on the cross?  The passage you quoted is about burial of my Lord who was conceived in a virgin womb and born from a virgin womb and buried in a virgin tomb.

 

You also wrote as your second point, “When the scripture calls Him "Holy One" - some have the audacity to separate Son from Son and make Him a "holy Two".”  Did I write anything about “holy two?”  No! I did not.  Your rhetoric matches and parallels Servetus’ exclamation on Trinity.  Servetus did that in connection with Trinity.  He also used Scriptures to refute the doctrine of Trinity, as you are doing.

 

You wrote as the beginning of your third point, “It absolutely unscriptural to state that there was an "eternal separation" between the Father and Son.”  It only shows your lack of understanding of the word ‘eternity.’  Did I write anything about an eternal separation between the Son and the Father, as you stated?  Why don’t you write about what I wrote?

 

You also indicated what you are and what you should do.  Let me quote what you wrote about yourself and for yourself, “What unsriptural blunders are propagated by men who do not care for the scripture, to read and understand it "AS IT IS WRITTEN"!!”  You should read what is written as written and not what you want that to be.  You are in the habit of reading the Scriptures as you want to read them.  Therefore, I am not surprised in your recent tantamount of tantrum.

 

Let me explain on your fourth point.  Did I write about the last verses of Hebrews 9, before, in any thread?  Of course, I did.  You should read that.  About Romans 6:10, did you read that verse before you included that in your posting?  Did you read the portion that you high-lighted?  What do you think that is?  He died that death of separation from God, which is the ‘second death.’  It is not a physical death, because those who will stand before the Great White Throne were already dead, physically.  At the Great White Throne, they were judged according to their works that were written in the books.  They were cast into the Lake of Fire without separating the body, soul and spirit.  The separation from God without separating the body, soul, and spirit is the second death.  The first death is the separation of the body, soul, and spirit.  Those whose body soul, and spirit were separated from God because of the effect of sin should go through the physical death and then the second death of not being separated as before, but being separated from God.  The Son went through both these deaths on the cross, but in the reverse order.  He did that for me.  You may claim that He did not do that for you.  I would not object to your claim.  I believe that you are honest, at least in that admission of yours.   

 

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Aug 2014 5:57:39 PM Close

Dear ‘moses2006,’

 

On 8 Jul 2014, you wrote in your reply to brother Paulose, “Spiritual death is by definition, disconnection from the "Spirit-life" of God. As the Lord said in John 6:63, it is Spirit that gives spiritual life, which is in essence a partaking of the life of God.”  Since you did not quote that verse, let me do that for you, “It is the Spirit which quickens, the flesh profits nothing; the word which I have spoken unto you are spirit and life.”  Lord Jesus Christ said that the Holy Spirit is the one which quickens.  What is the meaning of the word “quickens?”  It is the translation of the Greek word ζωοποιουν (Z‘OPOIOUN), which means makes alive.  That indicates that that which was made alive was not alive before.  If it was not alive, then it must be dead.  The Spirit that makes the dead alive is not the flesh.  That also is in the verse you cited.  Therefore ‘flesh’ is not the Spirit that the Lord Jesus Christ was talking about.  Apostle Paul gave an answer to this, when he wrote that we are dead in trespasses and sins.  Man who is walking around at enmity with God is dead in trespasses and sins.  The dead man walking in enmity with God is spiritually dead in trespasses and sins.  That dead man is made alive by the Spirit.  Christ continued and said that the word He spoke is the spirit and life.  Please be careful when you modify those words that are spirit and life.

 

You also wrote, “When Adam sinned, he disconnected himself and all his descendants from the Spirit-life of God.”  Earlier you made an issue of ‘separation’ from my writing.  I am not making your ‘disconnected’ an issue, though that is not true.  That is why an angle was placed with the sword in his hand at the gate of the Garden of Eden.  It was not Adam who banished himself from the Garden, but it was God who banished him from the Garden after providing him with proper garments.  Disconnected is the state of being non-contiguous.  Adam was not disconnected, but he was separated from God.  

 

You wrote on the next paragraph, “The very words He spoke were life giving, filled with the Spirit (John 6:63).”  It is not written in John 6:63 that the words He spoke were “filled with the Spirit.”  You could refer to it yourself.  Are you the same person who concluded the previous posting to all readers, “Readers, beware what is written and please check against scripture what is written. This includes everything I have written as well?” I think so.  Why don’t you practice what you preach?  When I did what you asked the readers to do, I found that you are not that truthful.

 

You wrote, “His works were a demonstration of the power of the Spirit (Luke 4:14).”  I did not read that in Luke 4:14. However, Apostle John wrote in John 20:31 that he wrote about the signs that the Lord Jesus Christ did for the purpose that the readers may believe that Jesus is Christ.  Apostle John wrote that the signs were to show that He is the Messiah.  In other words, His works were the show of His Messiahship; to you it was the demonstration of the power of the Spirit.  The Son was on this earth to glorify the Father.  The Holy Spirit is to glorify the Father and the Son.  According to you, the son was glorifying the power of the Spirit.

 

You also wrote, “Even His death was a spotless offering of the Spirit, offered before God on our behalf (Heb 9:14).”  Have you read the verse Hebrews 9:14?  Allow me to quote Hebrews 9:13-14, “For if the blood of goats and bulls, and a heifer’s ashes sprinkling the defiled, sanctifies for the purity of the flesh, how much rather shall the blood of the Christ, who by the eternal Spirit offered Himself spotless to God, purify your conscience from dead works to worship the living God?”  The verse tells us that through the eternal Spirit, Christ offered Himself without spot to God.  Is that what you meant when you wrote, “a spotless offering of the Spirit?”   If it was, then you should remember that it was the “blood” and not ‘death’ that is mentioned in Hebrews 9:14.  Do you remember that you wrote in another thread, “Readers, beware what is written and please check against scripture what is written. This includes everything I have written as well?”

 

You wrote, “His work of preaching to the souls in prison, was a work of God's Spirit.”  It is not written in 1 Peter 3:18-19 that the preaching to the spirits in prison was a “work of God’s Spirit.”  You made it up.  It is written, “… He preached to the spirits in prison.”  Do you know that He submitted His spirit in to the hands of the Father before He expired?  You may not know this.  Are you the same person who asked the readers, “Readers, beware what is written and please check against scripture what is written. This includes everything I have written as well?” When I did what you asked the readers to do, I found that you are found short of being truthful.

 

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Aug 2014 5:58:08 PM Close

Dear ‘moses2006,’

You wrote on 9 July 9 2014, “(2) man's spiritual death which is from Satan.”  Are you saying that ‘death,’ any kind of death, is a gift from Satan?  I read in the Scriptures that ‘death’ is a judgment of God on man for disobeying with an attitude to be equal with God.  Could you provide scriptural support for your statement?

You also wrote, “Man's spirit is a part of his created being, along with the body and the soul. The spirit is our faculty which we use for our religious and spiritual experiences - such as faith, hope, peace, worship, etc.”  What is your explanation of 1 Corinthians 2:11, in the light of what you wrote?

 

You also wrote, “We connect to God through our spirit. The spirit is also the force of life within us, that makes the body and soul alive. Whether the human spirit is eternal or not is debatable. Eccl 12:7 says that upon death, a man's spirit returns to God, but does not tell us what God does with the returned spirit. God who created the spirit can also destroy it. Ultimately, only God Himself is eternal and everything He created cannot compare to Him.”  How do we connect to God through our spirit?  What is this “connect to God” implies?  I have to ask, because you made “separation” an issue of contention, before.  It appears that expression of ‘connecting to God’ has a Hindu or Buddhist background, if not that of SDA.  Are you speculating about God destroying the spirit of men?  Of course, you are not speculating; you are providing a modified version of annihilation of human spirit, as taught by SDA. 

 

You continued, “Spiritual death is a condition, not an entity…  That death is first of all spiritual death, then physical death and finally eternal death. These 3 deaths are the wages of sin (Rom 6:23). Spiritually dead man still has a spirit, with the originally created ability to experience the divine things of God. Fallen man is called spiritually dead, because he is alienated from the life of God (Eph 4:18). This death is a condition of the soul of man (not his spirit).”  Ephesians 4 deals with the one body and one spirit.  Could you quote the verse, Ephesians 4:18, to show about ‘spiritual death?’  You have to explain this.  You also wrote, “Spiritually dead man still has a spirit, with the originally created ability to experience the divine things of God.” Does not this man who has a spirit also have a soul?  How the soul of man is dead while the spirit is living?  Could you also explain the expression in Revelation 16:3, “… Every living soul died in the sea?”  Also, please explain Matthew 10:28, where we read, “… but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body.”  There are other verses of interest, but these two are sufficient for this time.

 

You also wrote, “Spiritual death is a condition, not an entity.””  Please explain your reasons for saying this.  According to the English speaking world, the word ‘entity’ has the meaning:

1.      The fact of being in existence;

2.      A thing that has real and individual existence, in reality or in mind;

3.      Anything real in itself;

4.      Essence;

5.      Essential nature;

6.      Something that exists as a particular and discrete unit.

Are you saying that ‘spiritual death’ is not a fact, it does not exists in reality or in mind, it is unreal in itself, it does not have the essential nature of being dead; and/or that it does not exists as a particular or discrete thing?  What are you saying?  Please explain.    

 

You also wrote, “Man's soul is separated from divine things of God, …”  Are you saying that this separation from God is the ‘death’ of the soul?  Could you answer this question?

 

You also wrote, “Man's soul is separated from divine things of God, acts against the divine things of God, tries to thwart the will of God and is selfishly oriented to itself and self fulfillment. In this regard, the soul of fallen man is identical to the heart of Satan. The fallen soul dominates the spirit and refuses to allow the spirit to interact with its Creator. This is the natural condition of all unregenerated men.”  If the soul is dead and the spirit is not, how could this is done by the soul?  You have to explain this seemingly contradictory aspect of the ‘dead soul’ and a ‘living spirit.’

 

Shalom Malekim!!!

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