New User? Register Today!
Registered Users, LOGIN
What we believe (Eng) What we believe (Mal) About Us Contact Us
Forums Home General Forum Youth Forum Sisters Forum Archives (2005-2007) Archives (2001-2004)
Listing of Brides Listing of Grooms
Assemblies in Kerala Evangelists in India Instituitions in India
Christian Albums Christian Songs
Audio Sermons Bible Wallpapers Brethren Links KB History (Eng) KB History (Mal)

K E R A L A  B R E T H R E N
General Forum

Forums Home ::
This Message Forum is to discuss spiritual topics only. Please avoid personal or assembly matters.
Let us use this facility for our spiritual enrichment and for bringing glory to our Lord almighty.
Webmasters reserve the right to delete any topic or posting partly or completely from this forum.
View Topics :: :: Post new topic General Forum: On the Philosophical Question of Chicken and the Egg

Post Reply
Go to bottom of the page

# 07695 :  On the Philosophical Question of Chicken and the Egg

On 13 Jan 2015, Deepu wrote as part of the thread on The Empirical Evidences of Inspiration of the Bible From Science’ on a philosophical question, “Which came first: The chicken or the egg?” I thank him for that and wish to expand on it.

Manufacturing by Assembling ≠ Creation:

We have a tendency to equate the creation that took place in the six days of Genesis 1, to our manufacturing facilities and our ways of manufacturing products. God did not do that. His creations were, He said and it happened. If not, He formed it from the dust and breathed into its nostrils the breath of life. He gave all the living creatures a command to multiply and fill the earth after their kind. That multiplying and filling the earth was not similar to the modern day manufacturing technique of producing interchangeable parts and assembling them in an assembly line. The manufacturers of the components and the final assemblers need not be employed by the same company.

Mr. Ernest Voorhovee told me an interesting incident in assembling by parts. When he was a graduate student at the University of Pennsylvania, Univac produced the first computer for the US defense department at that university. They brought parts into a large room and assembled according to the design specification. When the computer was completed, they were ready to ship it to the US defense department, but they found that it was too large to go out through the door through which they brought the parts in. At last, they tore down part of the outer wall of that room and took the finished computer out of that room.

How about the command to multiply and fill the earth by God to the living creatures? Let us consider the human baby. We read in Psalm 139:15-16, “My bones were not hidden from you when I was made in secret, curiously wrought in the lower parts of the earth. Your eyes did see my unformed substance, and in your book all my members were written; during many days were they fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.” There we read that the bones are formed inside the mother’s womb as if they are part of the procreation. No parts are brought in from outside after the consumption. Even at the conception, no bones are brought in by the sperm. They are formed and the rules of forming are already written in their DNA. Not only that, when the baby comes to term, it comes out without breaking the walls. 

In this connection, I wish to look into the old packaging compared to modern day packaging. The old packaging is what God placed in creation for creatures to multiply and fill the earth. Let us look into the packaging of the fragile egg.

The Wonderful Old Packaging With A Modern Day Challenge

In the modern world, packaging of products is of utmost importance in selling the products by the manufacturers. The packaging of a product is not only to impress the customers, but also to keep the product from being damaged and destroyed in shipment as well as safely storing under conditions that may diminish its usefulness, if not make it useless. An electronic product could become unreliable under conditions such as humidity, heat, cold, contamination, and so on in the environment in which it is made, shipped, stored, or used. The same product could become unreliable or destroyed by the vibrations of various kinds during transportation or while in use. The chemical changes that could take place could affect the life of the same products over time, even when they are stored in a warehouse. This list should not be limited to what I have listed.

Have we ever thought about the packaging of seeds and fruits to keep them from being damaged? I am not talking about the packaging of products in the business world to make them available in the market from the farms to the end users. I am talking about the packaging of vegetables, fruits, and seeds on the third day of creation by God. While my readers are pondering over the packaging that took place on the third day of creation as we read in the first chapter of Genesis, I wish to discuss about the packaging that took place on the fifth day.

The birds have feathers as a covering for their bodies. The birds are warm blooded and lay eggs to procreate. Though most of the birds have the ability to fly, there are many birds that could not fly, because their wings are not suited to flying. They could run. They are the Ostrich, Emu, Kiwi, Cassowary, Penguins, the common chickens, etc. The birds are blessed with good eyesight and a keen sense of hearing. A mother hen could hear things that we may not be able to hear. She does not hesitate to warn her chicks, and they in turn will take refuge under her wings. If their nervous and muscular system developed this immediate warning call from the mother hen and its unwavering obedience by the chicks over hundreds of years as the evolutionists assume, they would have died out of existence. The first pair of chickens came with this ability to take care of their chicks and the chicks came with the urge to run under their mother’s wing, also. It could not be a gradual development process. This became useful as the danger of living came into existence. God created them with these abilities to live in a world that will become tainted with sin and death. If we think in terms of the Theory of Evolution, then it will become clear that the first birds of the evolutionists should have become extinct as soon as they came into existence.

Another interesting thing to consider is how do the young ones of the water birds know how to swim, when they are in the water for the first instance in their life? If that did not come instantaneously for the first chicks, they would have drowned. However, we see the ducklings and the babies of other water birds come with the ability to swim at the first time they are pushed into the water. You could hatch the eggs of a duck in a lab and try them by placing them into deep waters. To your surprise, without the mother’s help, they will swim without any hesitation.

There are major differences between birds and mammals. One of them is the formation of the lower jaw-born without teeth and the extremities developed into horny mandibles that we call a beak. Another difference is in their neck. The birds have no less than nine vertebrae on their neck, while the animals have only seven. In the birds, this varies upward from nine. In the swan, we could count at least 23. The ribs of the birds are attached to the spine. In birds, the mass of their flying muscles exceeds that of other muscles. The flying muscles are attached to a ridge on the breast bones. This ridge is known as the keel. The wing bones have no wrist bones. However, they are similar to human arms. The leg bones correspond to that of the animals. When the legs are bent, the tendons get shortened and that in turn make the toes to curl around of tree branches on which they perch. That is why the birds could sleep on trees without falling. Their feet are modified to grab the tree branches on which they perch.

The body of birds is stream-lined with hollow bones to be aerodynamic and light weight. They did not learn to have such bones from watching airplanes. The feathers are arranged in the direction of head-to-tail to help them in flight. The feathers are three in kind: the clothing feathers that are arranged colorfully to overlap the body, the quill that is in the wings and tail to help them in flight, and the fluffy downs to retain heat. The birds have telescopic sight with adaptability to see near and far objects. In swift ascend and descend to fly and to land, they change their focus fast, enabling them to be focused on the object of their choice. After knowing these few things, we should ask the evolutionists about the time required for the birds to discover these requirements from their life on the earth. They should also provide an explanation about the first pair of birds that discovered these life prolonging aspects of each of these items before they came into existence to incorporate them into their body. If the first pair of birds was without these advantages, then there could not be any bird to follow them. If there was a bird without any of these requirements, how could they survive till these requirements were met and implemented on them?

Another interesting observation could be the eggs. The evolutionists should be challenged for an answer on the packaging of the eggs by the birds. I leave it to the readers to come with their own questions after reading the packaging of the eggs by a pair of rooster and a hen. Let us imagine that we are looking at the first pair of rooster and hen that discovered how to package their eggs to survive in a world filled with enmity and insatiable desire to eat eggs. They made this discovery, without the help of any scientific equipment, like microscope.

(To be continued)

Post by : George P. Koshy  View Profile    since : 14 Jan 2015

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 14 Jan 2015 2:08:56 PM Close

They discovered that they have to lay eggs that have a porous covering. How did they come to know about the advantages of a porous shell against a non-porous and bony covering? Without the porous covering, the little life inside would have died of starvation of oxygen. Man failed to realize the need for appropriate packaging of his manufactured products for thousands of years, even though the humble household chickens were doing it for centuries. It took man thousands of years to discover the existence of oxygen and its importance to maintain life. How did Mr. Rooster and Mrs. Hen come to know about the eggs need for a porous shell so that oxygen can pass through those small holes to keep the eggs alive so that the formation of chicks would be possible? Let us assume that the first pair of birds discovered the need and made the eggshell porous. Then, how did they come to know about the dangers of the eggshell being porous? By the time they discovered this, they might have been dead, being stricken with old age. According to Evolutionists, it should take millions of years. The shape of the egg is also of importance, because the shape gives strength to the shell that exceeds the composition of the material with which it is made.

The danger of a porous shell is that the bacteria can get through those small holes and kill the life that is in the egg. The bacteria are too small to be detected by the naked eye. We could see them with the help of the intervening mediums, such as microscopes. The bacteria are searching for iron for survival. The first birds, already knew that iron is an essential chemical that is needed for the development of the chicks out of the fertilized eggs that the hen produces. The yolk in the egg is rich in iron and the bacteria could enter the egg through the small holes that makes the eggshell porous. The holes are for the oxygen to enter, but bacteria could use those as their entering gates of opportunities to consume iron from the yoke. The first pair of rooster and the hen faced a problem of making an egg with yolk that is rich in iron and that should be protected by an eggshell that should be porous to supply oxygen for the would-be-hatched chick. They have to lay that egg on the earth that is filled with bacteria that are crazy about iron for their survival. These bacteria should have iron to survive, as any other living thing. The father and mother of the first egg must have been so intelligent to know this fact before they laid the first egg or saw the first egg. How was this incorporated in the egg as the evolutionists want others to believe? Where is the data to support the evolutionists’ suppositions? The solution to this problem was simple, but the knowledge about their need was not that simple. The first pair produced an egg with porous shell enclosing an iron rich yolk surrounded by the egg white. The egg white is placed around the yolk as a trap to catch the intruders, the bacteria. It is a chemical trap. This chemical trap, the egg white, is virtually iron free. This chemical trap also contains a protein that is strongly attracted to iron. We call this protein, albumin.

This iron crazy albumin does not attack the yolk, but surrounds it. This is a clever packaging. How albumin acquired the non-attractiveness to the iron in the yolk? While the albumin is not attracted to the iron in the yolk, it remains strongly attracted to iron. To a creationist, the answer is that God created it that way. To an evolutionist, it is a question that they should answer. This albumin will kill all iron rich cells that come near. If any bacteria come through the porous shell, then they have to swim through the albumin in the egg to reach the iron rich yolk. Unfortunately, for the bacteria, the albumin in the egg will kill them for their iron. This action of the egg white helps the chick to develop from the yolk and come out of the egg as a living creature. If too many bacteria enter through the egg shell, then the egg white may become saturated with the dead bacteria and their iron.  Then it will be a rotten egg. This clever packaging of the egg should have taken place on the first group of eggs. Otherwise, all the eggs would have died either by lack of oxygen for the yolk, or from the egg becoming void of iron because the bacteria ate all of it from the yoke. Could the evolutionists answer this problem of the first bird parents and how they solved it so cleverly with exceeding ingenuity that surpasses even the modern science? The first pair of birds laid the first egg with this genius incorporation into the packaging system without the aid of microscopes to detect the bacteria and oxygen molecules! How many years did they take to come up with this unique construction? If it was more than fifteen years, then the first parents, the rooster and the hen, might have been dead and gone; without leaving any successors to develop this packaging of the eggs.

At this juncture, I wish to discuss the formation of the egg in a hen, packaging it in a strange shaped porous shell. In the hen, the formation of the egg starts with the yolk, the ovum, inside the hen’s ovary. The egg begins its journey through a tubular passage, the oviduct, from the ovary to the vagina. The yolk makes a few stops in this journey.  The first stop is to pick-up the egg white, the albumin that is secreted through the walls of the tube. After receiving the egg white, it continues its journey and will make a second stop for an hour to receive the lining for the shell. After receiving the lining, it will move to the uterus. As the egg is lacking the shell, up to this time, it will appear that the egg is moving with its pointed end as the leading point. Having a fluid structure, the egg will be spherical shape exerting equal forces on all sides to minimize contact with the rest of the earth. The spherical shape also helps to hold the maximum fluid volume in a minimum surface area. Birds like the kingfisher, owl, and eagle lay eggs that are near spherical, spheroid. In the next 24 hours or so, it will receive chalky deposits that will become the shell. However, birds like household chicken lay elongated eggs because of the muscular contraction of the oviduct. These muscular contractions squeeze the egg to give it that shape.

About one to half-hour before the laying of the egg, the egg will flip over to make the blunt end to be the leading end. The science has no answer with respect to the function of the shape of the egg. All we know is that it is not that easy to design that shape as a discovery of scientific thought. Have you ever looked and wondered how the egg rolls? We should ask the first parents birds about it. They may be anxious to tell about the easiness of arranging it under the mother for incubation, though she may not know whose eggs she is sitting on. The first pair of birds came with the idea of the strange shape for the egg to keep it arranged under the body of the female bird. This they did even before they saw the first egg that came out of the female bird. We should ask the evolutionists to observe how the eggs are protected from rolling away into the land and rocks under their nests. When the eggs were rearranged, in the wild, with their pointed end outwards or sideways, the mother birds always rearrange the eggs with their pointed end inward. When they discovered the efficacy of the shape of the eggs, they also found that the arrangement by the pointed end inward also helps the dissipation of heat from the mother’s body slower and that will help the incubation process better and efficient. It appears that the first parent birds were a pair of better scientists to optimize heat dissipation technology, even before they laid the first egg. The first pair of birds was better than the modern day scientists, in producing an egg with the optimized shape.

Another benefit of the odd shape of the egg is that it contributes to the strength of its shell. The egg should not break under the weight of the parent. Who would think about this, especially the dumb first parent birds that had no idea about gravity, mass, and weight of their own body? The evolutionists think that the first pair of birds knew everything about gravity, mass, and weight. If a muscular man tries to break an egg that is without any structural flaw to its shell, squeezing it longitudinally in his hands, applying pressure evenly, will find it very difficult to break it. After receiving this fragile but strong shell, the egg will emerge with its broad end first into this world. Considering all this, the evolutionists have to admit the intelligent of the dumb first parents to have an engineering feat that men were not able to invent in their endeavors for thousands of years.

I wish to discuss a little about the job of laying eggs. How did the first pair of birds know about laying the eggs? According to evolutionists, the birds evolved or came from something that did not look like birds. When the first pair of birds, it must be a male and a female, were born to their non-bird looking parents, the parents could have been so afraid of their children and might have killed them. If there was only a male or a female, then they might have found it impossible to mate for the survival of the fittest. Therefore, let us help our friends with the evolutionary persuasion. Let us help them by assuming that all on a sudden there appeared two birds from parents who were not birds. The parents were so afraid of them and abandoned them. Anyway, they grew up together.

Now we ask the evolutionist, how did the female know about laying the eggs with all its intricacies and hatching their chicks? They have not seen an egg before, but it came out of the female and not from the male. It might have scared the wits out of them to see such a thing having a hard casing coming from the female and not from the male. The male bird might have been crushed to humiliation, because it did not come from him. It was really hard and rolling around in strange manner. Did they know anything about fertilizing the egg by the male, before that was laid? When the egg came out, the first time, how did they know that it is their baby? The eggs have no resemblance to them, external or internal.  Eggs have no resemblance to the birds that laid them. The eggs have no beak, wings, feathers, legs, etc. It is just a non-elliptic thing that knows only to roll and break when it falls to the ground. It did not even chirp. How did the female bird know that sitting on the egg will make the chick to come out of it? Without any experience or any teaching from their parents about it, the female bird sat on it, day after day. Why? Did the female bird think that sitting on the egg will help to squeeze out what is inside the firm and porous shell? What made the female bird to do that? Could our evolutionist friends help us with an answer that is intelligent and scientific? So, the female bird sat for days upon almost a round or non-elliptic thing that came out of her. Then the chick came out. When did the female bird teach the chick about the egg and what could come out of it, by sitting on it, to the next generation? She even chased away the young birds, her older children, from her before she laid the next series of eggs. We may call this chasing of the children as weaning of the child. Now our evolutionist friends may say about instinct, a tendency that has certain innate character without prior experience. Did they acquire this instinct? Evolutionists have no answer to this, but we creationists could say that God put it in them at creation.

Allow me to discuss about the formation of a live chick inside the egg. After a few hours of incubation, the warmth will create a whitish streak on the yolk. It will be about one-tenth of an inch (0.1”) long. This will enlarge into two small ridges that are connected with a small thread like object. This is the first sighting of the chicken’s spinal cord, the formation of bones from inside the egg where there was no bones before. After the sighting of this, we will see a series of tiny white plates that will become the back bone. After the first 24 hours, we could see the formation of tiny heart. On the third day we will witness the formation of blood vessels. The succeeding days we could witness the formation of various organs and how they build up inside the egg. On the twelfth (12th) day we will witness the formation of feathers. This little creature will grow inside the eggshell in the coming days. On the 19th and 20th day, the chick will pierce the tiny air-sac at the wider end of the egg. This act of piercing the air-sac is necessary, exactly on this day. This small amount of air will help the chick to chirp before it is out of the eggshell. The breaking of the eggshell is accomplished with the help of a special hard covering of its bill. Soon after the chick is out of the shell, this hard flinty tool is discarded. Do the evolutionists claim that the first parents of the first chick on this earth discovered all these before the first chick ever appeared? We creationists could say that God created them and equipped them that way to procreate after their kind.

Various birds will fly north to procreate and south for food and warmth. They will build nests, even without any experience, for the propagation of their own kind. They will lay eggs in their nests and sit on it to hatch it and will feed the chicks with utmost commitment. When a bird sits on its egg, there is no justification to suspect that she has some knowledge about fertilization of eggs and what will come out of its body. A hen will faithfully sit on unfertilized eggs, even on fake eggs. She may not even recognize what come out of the eggs are of her own kind. We could hatch duck eggs under a hen. A cuckoo bird uses crow’s nest to lay its egg. The crow, in turn, will hatch and nourish her future generation cuckoo, even if the cuckoo chick pushes the crow's chicks out of the nest and kills them. With all this ignorance, they sit on the egg faithfully till they are hatched. When the new things are of age, they will forsake them and the new generation is of their own. We need some scientific answers from the evolutionists about the actions of the first birds on these.

Shalom Malekim!!!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 15 Jan 2015 2:56:36 PM Close

Dear Mr. Koshy,

Thanks for the informative write up above. It took me some time to read and understand it all, but it proved to be worthwhile and it left me with praise for the wisdom of Almighty God. Even the humble chicken declares His glory and His ingenious wisdom.

Evolutionists are too hard headed to see and have a sense of awe of God's wisdom, that is so clearly seen by the work of His hands. The number of scholarly papers published by these evolutionists defending their pet lie, is amazing. Not one of them will pause and take an unbiased look at what they are publishing. God word is so true when it makes this comment, 'Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools'!.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 15 Jan 2015 8:45:20 PM Close

Dear Deepu,

On the thread on the ‘Empirical Evidences,’ when you made the following posting, I wrote you to start a new thread. Your posting was:

Sorry to interrupt. But would like to share one more recent finding in the year 2010 and the same was reported in CNN-IBN in the year 2014 to which i really laughed at.

Which came first: The chicken or the egg

What has been seen for centuries as the world's most baffling scientific and philosophical mystery, has finally been solved, according to scientists. The chicken came first, scientists said cracking the riddle of whether the chicken or the egg came first, the Daily Mail reported.

Researchers found that the formation of egg shells relies on a protein found only in a chicken's ovaries, leading to the conclusion that an egg can exist only if it has been inside a chicken. The protein ovocledidin-17, or OC-17, acts as a catalyst to speed up the development of the shell, the Daily Mail reported.

Scientists from Sheffield and Warwick universities used a super computer to 'zoom in' on the formation of an egg. The computer HECToR revealed that OC-17 is crucial in kick-starting crystallisation. The protein coverts calcium carbonate into calcite crystals which make up the shell.

The report said that chickens form calcite crystals quicker than any other species - six grams of shell every 24 hours.

"It had long been suspected that the egg came first but now we have the scientific proof that shows that in fact the chicken came first," Dr Colin Freeman, from Sheffield University's Department of Engineering Materials, told the Daily Mail. The discovery was reported in the paper Structural Control Of Crystal Nuclei By An Eggshell Protein.””

I asked for a new thread, not because of its content, but you did not connect it with the statements in the Bible and how the ‘scientists’ ignored and laughed at it in the past.  Without that information, I thought that you were asking a question. After reading your reply, I invite you to repost it with additional information from the Bible about the subject of interest.  Please do that on the thread on the ‘Empirical Evidences’ and not on this.  When you connect the recent statement of the scientists with that of the Bible, written many hundreds of years ago, then we could laugh at them.

I look forward to reading your posting with additional information.

Shalom Malekim!!!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : deepucvarghese   View Profile   Since : 16 Jan 2015 12:16:22 PM Close

Dear brother

Rightly said. i should have added those informations pointed out by you. Will do the same in a day or two. 

-- Deepu

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Post reply Here

please login to continue..

Registered Users, Login below:

Username Password
Problem Login?

New User? Register Now

Forgot User Name or Password? Click Here

Go to top of the page

All times are GMT -5 Hours
Forums Home ::

Back to Top