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Keralabrethren.net: General Forum: The Lord Jesus and the Laodicean Church

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# 07783 :  The Lord Jesus and the Laodicean Church

Dear Mr. Koshy,

Quote from thread # 07781 :  The First Day, The Lord's Day, and The Day of the Lord, "On the contrary, the expression, “I was in the Spirit” implies that he was in that state before and continued in such a state. The expression “Lord’s day” indicates the time of the revealing of the things that was, is, and is to come to John, so that he could write and send what he saw and came to know on that day to the local assemblies. To the local assemblies it was the Lord’s Day in which they gathered together to remember the Lord as stated in 1 Acts 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 11-16. It is what is written in the letter to Laodicea, where the Lord is standing outside their gathering place and knocking at the door to open to Him. The Lord gave us the needed information that the ‘Lord’s Day’ in Revelation 1:10 is the ‘first day’ of the week. It was an earthy day."

I am not starting this thread to discuss the nuances of the First Day, Lord's Day,  and Day of the Lord. I am only interested in understanding one statement you made in this paragraph above, where you stated, " It is what is written in the letter to Laodicea, where the Lord is standing outside their gathering place and knocking at the door to open to Him."

I was very surprised to read this statement and I assumed that you were referring to Rev 3:20 - Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

You did not quote Rev 3:20 - I did that to ask you for clarification of your statement based on Rev 3:20.

If your statement had nothing to do with Rev 3:20, we do not have to bring it up in this discussion at all. But then you owe the readers a scripture verse that supports your assertion about the Lord standing outside the Laodicean church and knocking on their door.

In the previous thread you asked a couple of questions to which I answered to my ability. See below for my answers that I have rewritten based on reading your responses.

In Revelation chapter one, where was the Lord Jesus Christ?

Ans - The Lord Jesus is everywhere as He is omnipresent. John, while in Patmos, being in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, saw the Lord standing in the midst of the seven golden lampstands (see v13).

Was He inside the local assemblies or outside?

Ans - How do I answer this (obviously leading) question? How can anyone answer this question? The Lord is seen standing in the midst of 7 golden lampstands. How can anyone take this vision to answer the question on His location inside or outside the local assemblies? I do not see a correlation between His standing in the vision to His being physically inside or outside the local assemblies.

Dear readers, if anyone can answer Mr. Koshy's second question, please do so.

Dear Mr. Koshy, I hope you can use this thread to explain where we read that "It is what is written in the letter to Laodicea, where the Lord is standing outside their gathering place and knocking at the door to open to Him."

Post by : moses2006  View Profile    since : 27 Aug 2015


Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 28 Aug 2015 1:24:02 PM Close

Dear ‘moses2006,’

If your questions in this thread are related to what I wrote on the thread that you referred to, then there is no need to write about the omnipresence of God, because that was not in the scope of that thread.

This is the first time, you write on this thread of yours, about the Lord standing in the midst of seven golden stands. Before this, you brought in a not-mentioned assembly at Patmos and the Lord Jesus Christ was standing with John. Both were not mentioned in Revelation 1:9-16 or even in Revelation 3:20. Now you are getting a little better.

Now let us progress slowly. I am asking you a few questions. Please answer them properly. They are not leading questions. However, for a person who has some ulterior motives that may become so, though that is not by design or intent.

Do you agree with the Scriptures that the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of Man, was standing between the seven golden lamps?

According to the geography, could the expression ‘midst of the lamps’ is literal?

Do you know the significance of those seven golden lamps? If you do, what is that?

When the Son of Man is standing in the midst of the golden lamps, is He inside the lamps, outside the lamps, or on top of the lamps?

Is the assembly at Laodicea was included in the seven golden lamps?

If the Lord Jesus Christ—Son of Man—was knocking at the door of the assembly at Laodicea, was He standing?

If He was standing, was He standing inside the assembly at Laodicea, outside that assembly, or over the assembly?

When He said that if any man hears His voice and opens the door, then is it reasonable to conclude that the door on which He was knocking was shut and He was on the outside?

When He said that if anyone opens the door then He “will come in,” then does that indicate that He was knocking at the door from outside?

If you could answer the above questions, then you have answered my second question. You see, my second question on the other thread was not a leading question, but a helpful question for you to come to the right conclusion from the Bible and not from your mindset.

If you could answer these questions without any ‘smart Alek’ answers, then we will continue our discussion to complete your request.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 28 Aug 2015 3:28:11 PM Close

Dear Mr. Koshy,

Quote, "This is the first time, you write on this thread of yours, about the Lord standing in the midst of seven golden stands. Before this, you brought in a not-mentioned assembly at Patmos and the Lord Jesus Christ was standing with John."

My first post on this thread will naturally also be the first reference to anything I write in that post this thread. But you are incorrect that I never wrote about the Lord Jesus standing in the midst of the 7 golden lampstands before this thread. See below (and you can go to thread # 07781 to see if its there as well)

On 24 Aug 2015 16:30:02, I stated "Relative to the seven golden lampstands, He is seen standing in the midst."

On 25 Aug 2015 15:04:32, I stated, "John saw the Lord standing in the midst of the seven golden lampstands (see v13)."

So, why did you not acknowledge that I stated the above statements previously? How did I get "better" by stating the same thing in this thread?

And I never stated that "the Lord Jesus Christ was *standing* with John." I said, "the Lord Jesus is *with* Apostle John, on the island of Patmos." There is big difference.

Regarding local assembly in Patmos, you asked me whether the Lord Jesus was standing inside or outside the local assemblies in Rev 1. That is why I stated that we do not see any reference to local assemblies in Patmos.

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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 28 Aug 2015 5:35:35 PM Close

Dear Mr. Koshy

In your last post you presented me with some questions. Here I attempt to answer them to the best of my ability:

1) Do you agree with the Scriptures that the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of Man, was standing between the seven golden lamps?

Ans - Yes, if between means midst.

2) According to the geography, could the expression ‘midst of the lamps’ is literal?

Ans - John is in the Spirit and he is being shown a divine vision. Where is John when he is in Spirit? Is John still on Patmos or is he in heavenly realms? We do not know, nor can we tell for sure. We know what happenned to Phillip and Paul, when they were in the Spirit. For the sake of simplicity, we can assume that John is seeing the vision of the Lord Jesus standing on the ground of Patmos Island. We can state that the 7 golden lampstands are around the Lord. And the Lord is seen standing in the midst of the seven lampstands.

3) Do you know the significance of those seven golden lamps? If you do, what is that?

Ans - The Lord Jesus Himself states "the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches." (Rev 1:20). There is no need to add to His self explanatory words. But, as with a lot scripture, we have to interpret the lampstands as symbolic elements that represent the local assemblies. The lampstands symbolize the local assemblies of Asia minor.

4) When the Son of Man is standing in the midst of the golden lamps, is He inside the lamps, outside the lamps, or on top of the lamps?

Ans - The scripture is clear, He is standing in the midst of the lampstands (and walking in the midst of them as well). Nowhere does the scripture say that the Lord is inside or outside or on top of the lamps. These latter charecterizations are products of your own mind. And you are asking this leading question to get me to agree to your mindset, instead of asking me to agree with the scriptures. We can continue this discussion, only if the scriptures are the common ground we stand on, not the mental models and failiable charecterizations of your (or my) mind.

5) Is the assembly at Laodicea was included in the seven golden lamps?

Ans - Yes. One of the golden lampstands in John's vision is symbolic of the actual physical local assembly located in Laodicea, Asia Minor.

6) If the Lord Jesus Christ—Son of Man—was knocking at the door of the assembly at Laodicea, was He standing?

Ans - Can you please tell me where we read that "Lord Jesus Christ—Son of Man—was knocking at the door of the assembly at Laodicea". We can continue this question once you give me a scriptural reference. This will help me read that scripture first, before I answer this question.

7) If He was standing, was He standing inside the assembly at Laodicea, outside that assembly, or over the assembly?

Ans - I need an answer to Q6 before I can answer Q7, since this question makes an assumption about my response to your Q6.

8) When He said that if any man hears His voice and opens the door, then is it reasonable to conclude that the door on which He was knocking was shut and He was on the outside?

Ans - Can you please tell me where in scripture we read "if any man hears His voice and opens the door". We can continue this question once you give me a scriptural reference. This will help me read that scripture first, before I answer this question.

9) When He said that if anyone opens the door then He “will come in,” then does that indicate that He was knocking at the door from outside?

Ans - Can you please tell me where in scripture we read that "if anyone opens the door then He will come in". We can continue this question once you give me a scriptural reference. This will help me read that scripture first, before I answer this question.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 29 Aug 2015 3:53:47 PM Close

Dear ‘moses2006,’

You wrote on Aug 2015 about the omnipresence of God and also ‘relative to.’ I do not see anything about ‘relative to,’ but there is a definite statement about where John saw the Son of Man. This ‘relative to’ is a ‘smart Alek’ answer. If any wants to make a ‘relative to’ expression, then that should not be God being ‘relative to’ anything, but all things should be relative to Him. You should try to engage in a discussion with the fear of God and of His Word. You have already demonstrated your ability to change the Word of God at your convenience. On 27 Aug 2015 you wrote the correct answer, “John, while in Patmos, being in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, saw the Lord standing in the midst of the seven golden lampstands (see v13).” You did not use the Einsteinian theory of relativity on that day.

You wrote on 25 Aug 2015, “In Revelation chapter one, where was the Lord Jesus Christ? - He is on the island of Patmos(see v9), with Apostle John. John saw the Lord standing in the midst of the seven golden lampstands (see v13).” You were using your ‘smart Alek’ answer and wrote, “He is on the island of Patmos(see v9).” How did you come to conclude that the Lord Jesus Christ was on the island of Patmos from Revelation 1:9? When you did that you made the Apostle John to be the Lord Jesus Christ. Verse 9 tells that John (“I John”) was in the island of Patmos. It does not say that the Lord Jesus Christ was on the island of Patmos. You should realize the error that could be the product of your ‘smart Alek’ answers.

You are getting better on this thread by staying close to the written Words of God, rather than changing what is written in the Scriptures.

You wrote, “And I never stated that "the Lord Jesus Christ was *standing* with John." I said, "the Lord Jesus is *with* Apostle John, on the island of Patmos." There is big difference.” I did not quote you when I wrote that. I was stating my understanding of what you wrote. If you look closely, then you will find that there were not quotation marks around it. You wrote, "the Lord Jesus is *with* Apostle John, on the island of Patmos." I cannot find that in Revelation 1:9-16. However, I read that He was in the midst of the seven lamps.

I asked you seven questions on 28 Aug 2015. You have answered or pretended to do so on 29 Aug 2015. Thank you for your efforts.

Your answer to my first question was, “Yes, if between means midst.” I do not know the translation you use. However in KJV the word is ‘midst.’ You are regressing back to your ‘smart Alek’ answers.

My second question was, “According to the geography, could the expression ‘midst of the lamps’ is literal?” You answer was, “John is in the Spirit and he is being shown a divine vision. Where is John when he is in Spirit? Is John still on Patmos or is he in heavenly realms? We do not know, nor can we tell for sure. We know what happenned to Phillip and Paul, when they were in the Spirit. For the sake of simplicity, we can assume that John is seeing the vision of the Lord Jesus standing on the ground of Patmos Island. We can state that the 7 golden lampstands are around the Lord. And the Lord is seen standing in the midst of the seven lampstands.” You did not answer my question. Please read my question and provide your answer. To answer this question you should consider at least Revelation 1:12-20.

Your reply to my third question was, “The Lord Jesus Himself states "the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches." (Rev 1:20). There is no need to add to His self explanatory words. But, as with a lot scripture, we have to interpret the lampstands as symbolic elements that represent the local assemblies. The lampstands symbolize the local assemblies of Asia minor.” If the Lord’s words are self-explanatory, why did you write what you wrote as your answer to the 2nd question? Are you the same person who wrote that the Lord Jesus Christ was at the island of Patmos with John? Did you add some of your explanatory words to the Lords’ words?

Your answer to my 4th question was, “The scripture is clear, He is standing in the midst of the lampstands (and walking in the midst of them as well). Nowhere does the scripture say that the Lord is inside or outside or on top of the lamps. These latter charecterizations are products of your own mind. And you are asking this leading question to get me to agree to your mindset, instead of asking me to agree with the scriptures. We can continue this discussion, only if the scriptures are the common ground we stand on, not the mental models and failiable charecterizations of your (or my) mind.” My questions indicate how I study the Bible. You wrote about the seven lamps and that is what we read in the Bible. I am not finding fault with your answer, but am reminding you that you wrote about mental models and their fallibility. You also wrote that Christ was in the midst of the lamp. Do that give you a picture of Christ in your mind as being inside the lamp, outside the lamp, or on top of the lamp? This is not a leading question. It is a simple question. If the mental models are fallible, then how did you give your answer to my second question? You do not even know what is meant by the word ‘midst.’ Please answer my fourth question.

To my 5th question, you answered, “Yes. One of the golden lampstands in John's vision is symbolic of the actual physical local assembly located in Laodicea, Asia Minor.” Thank you for a simple answer.

Your answer to my 6th question was, “Can you please tell me where we read that "Lord Jesus Christ—Son of Man—was knocking at the door of the assembly at Laodicea". We can continue this question once you give me a scriptural reference. This will help me read that scripture first, before I answer this question.” This question could be answered from Revelation 3:15-22. Please read those verses and answer.

Your answer to my 7th question was, “I need an answer to Q6 before I can answer Q7, since this question makes an assumption about my response to your Q6.” Since I provided the verses to answer my 6th question, could you answer this also?

Your answer to my 8th question was, “Can you please tell me where in scripture we read "if any man hears His voice and opens the door". We can continue this question once you give me a scriptural reference. This will help me read that scripture first, before I answer this question.” You read Revelation 3:15-22 and answer my question.

Your answer to my 9th question was, “Can you please tell me where in scripture we read that "if anyone opens the door then He will come in". We can continue this question once you give me a scriptural reference. This will help me read that scripture first, before I answer this question.” You must read Revelation 3:15-22 to answer this question.

Your answers show your lack of spiritual sincerity when answering from the Scriptures. You brought in the question on Revelation 3:20 in another thread and then started this thread, and now you pretend that you do not even know what verse is under this discussion. Even an atheist will not resort to such unfaithfulness in a discussion.

Please answer my questions from the second frame of this thread, if you want a discussion.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 31 Aug 2015 6:10:36 PM Close

Dear Mr. Koshy,

Quote, "You wrote on Aug 2015 about the omnipresence of God and also ‘relative to.’ I do not see anything about ‘relative to,’ but there is a definite statement about where John saw the Son of Man. This ‘relative to’ is a ‘smart Alek’ answer. If any wants to make a ‘relative to’ expression, then that should not be God being ‘relative to’ anything, but all things should be relative to Him."

The "relative to" expression was used to state where the Lord Jesus was standing, in response to your question "In Revelation chapter one, where was the Lord Jesus Christ?." Relative to (i.e. in relation to) the lampstands, He was standing in their midst. We can also say, relative to the Lord Jesus, the lampstands were around him (by deduction). If you prefer the latter, then you should have asked the question, "In Revelation chapter one, where are the lampstands"? Your question is what forced me to state where the Lord Jesus is in relation to the lampstands.

If we go by your doctrine, "that should not be God being ‘relative to’ anything, but all things should be relative to Him" was it right of Apostle John to first describe the 7 lampstands, before He described the Lord Jesus as standing in their midst? So you see that the inspired text does not follow your laws of relativity.

 

Quote, "Your answer to my first question was, “Yes, if between means midst.” I do not know the translation you use. However in KJV the word is ‘midst.’ You are regressing back to your ‘smart Alek’ answers."

'Midst' is a an exact geometric location of an entity; 'between' is not. The Lord Jesus is not simply between the lampstands, He is in their midst. 'Midst' means that He is equidistant from all the lampstands. He is not closer to one and farther away from another one. He is seen standing in the midst of all of them. When you use the expression "between", you have shown willingness to be careless and ambiguous about where the Lord is standing, even though the inspired text is very specific. That is why I said, "Yes, if between means midst."

 

Quote, "My second question was, “According to the geography, could the expression ‘midst of the lamps’ is literal?” You answer was, “John is in the Spirit and he is being shown a divine vision. Where is John when he is in Spirit? Is John still on Patmos or is he in heavenly realms? We do not know, nor can we tell for sure. We know what happenned to Phillip and Paul, when they were in the Spirit. For the sake of simplicity, we can assume that John is seeing the vision of the Lord Jesus standing on the ground of Patmos Island. We can state that the 7 golden lampstands are around the Lord. And the Lord is seen standing in the midst of the seven lampstands.” You did not answer my question. Please read my question and provide your answer. To answer this question you should consider at least Revelation 1:12-20."

Ans - What I said in my response was trying to say that the vision is literal - midst of the lamps can be assumed to be literal.

 

Quote, "Your answer to my 4th question was, “The scripture is clear, He is standing in the midst of the lampstands (and walking in the midst of them as well). Nowhere does the scripture say that the Lord is inside or outside or on top of the lamps. These latter charecterizations are products of your own mind. And you are asking this leading question to get me to agree to your mindset, instead of asking me to agree with the scriptures. We can continue this discussion, only if the scriptures are the common ground we stand on, not the mental models and failiable charecterizations of your (or my) mind.” My questions indicate how I study the Bible. You wrote about the seven lamps and that is what we read in the Bible. I am not finding fault with your answer, but am reminding you that you wrote about mental models and their fallibility. You also wrote that Christ was in the midst of the lamp. Do that give you a picture of Christ in your mind as being inside the lamp, outside the lamp, or on top of the lamp? This is not a leading question. It is a simple question. If the mental models are fallible, then how did you give your answer to my second question? You do not even know what is meant by the word ‘midst.’ Please answer my fourth question."

Ans - Perhaps we can proceed with this "simple question" if you define "inside the lamp, outside the lamp, or on top of the lamp". Can you do that, please? When you do, please clarify if a lamp is a hollow entity for the someone to be inside a lamp (singular, as you used 'lamp', not lamps). Also what is outside a lamp? What is on top of a lamp? A flame of fire is what one expects on top of a lamp, so are you talking about the Lord being on top of the fire? Please clarify. I will tell you this, I will not give answers that are not supported by or logically inferred by the inspired text of scripture, no matter how much you force me to do so. If you force me to answer questions that do not have a scriptural basis, I will be correct in calling such questions as 'leading questions'.

"If the mental models are fallible, then how did you give your answer to my second question?" - I did not use any mental models for this one. Can you please show me what mental model did I use to answer your second question?

 

Q6 - If the Lord Jesus Christ—Son of Man—was knocking at the door of the assembly at Laodicea, was He standing?

Thank you for providing a scripture reference for this question. Rev 3:20 is clear in which the Lord Himself states that He is standing. But how did you get to "knocking at the door of the assembly at Laodicea"? Nowhere in Rev 3:15-22 does the Lord refer to their physical assembly door? Your use of "If" in this question shows how deceptive you are - you are like a sales person doing the bait and switch. By making me focus on the 'standing' you thought you could make me agree to the "knocking at the door of the assembly at Laodicea" part implied in the question.

Yes the Lord is standing and knocking! But how did you conclude that the Lord is standing at the physical door of the assembly in Laodicea? Please clarify and we can proceed with this question.

 

Q7 - If He was standing, was He standing inside the assembly at Laodicea, outside that assembly, or over the assembly?

You are basing your Q7 based on the assumed answer to Q6 that the Lord Jesus standing at the physical door of the assembly in Laodicea. First clarify or show in Q6 how you concluded that the Lord is standing at the physical door of the assembly in Laodicea? Please clarify and we can proceed with this question on "inside the assembly at Laodicea, outside that assembly, or over the assembly". Q6 and Q7 are related and we cannot proceed to Q7 without satisfactorily answering Q6 with the scriptures.

 

Q8 - When He said that if any man hears His voice and opens the door, then is it reasonable to conclude that the door on which He was knocking was shut and He was on the outside?

Ans - Yes He is knocking on the outside. But to claim that an omnipresent divine being can be limited to being just outside a door, does not accord with scripture. Thank you for providing a scripture reference for this question.

 

Q9 - When He said that if anyone opens the door then He “will come in,” then does that indicate that He was knocking at the door from outside?

Ans - Yes, the Lord is knocking from the outside, as I already said in Q8. Thank you for providing a scripture reference for this question.

 

Here are some related questions for you: From outside the shut door, where did the Lord promise to enter into? Also what activity did He promise to those who open the door? Was this promised activity of a personal and private nature OR was it of a public nature? You will find the answers for these questions in Rev 3:20. Just as I showed the willingness to answer your questions so far, will you also show some willingness to answer the questions I raised?

 

Quote, "Your answers show your lack of spiritual sincerity when answering from the Scriptures. You brought in the question on Revelation 3:20 in another thread and then started this thread, and now you pretend that you do not even know what verse is under this discussion. Even an atheist will not resort to such unfaithfulness in a discussion."

The reason I asked you for the scriptural reference is that we had a few exchanges the previous thread where you asserted multiple times that you did not quote Rev 3:20. So, on this thread, I want the reference to come from you, rather than me assuming which part of scripture you are referring about. In my first post I said, "If your statement had nothing to do with Rev 3:20, we do not have to bring it up in this discussion at all." You had the opportunity to state that this reference is correct for your statement. But you chose not to do so. You reference to atheist is simply another unwarranted and unjustified attack, which deserves no response.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 2 Sep 2015 5:16:44 PM Close

Dear ‘moses2006,’

This is in reply to your posting of 31 Aug 2015.

You tried to justify your ‘relative to’ answer. I did not ask about where was Christ relative to something or someone. I asked you to tell where the Lord Jesus Christ was as written in the Word of God and translated in the version you use. Could you do that? So long as you are engaged in your justification of ‘relative to,’ I have no choice but to ask you to answer as it is read in your version, at least. You must answer what you read, without prejudice. Your ‘relative to’ answer indicates your prejudice as it is written and translated. My question was, "In Revelation chapter one, where was the Lord Jesus Christ?"

On insisting on the meaning of ‘midst’: Do you think that it has a meaning to indicate ‘among,’ as in saying, ‘There is an atheist in our midst?’ Or, does it means that the atheist is exactly equidistant from each and every other person, indicated by the expression “our.” You should remember that even MESO has more than one meaning as ‘midst’ has.

Your next answer was much better and simpler.

My 4th question was the result of what you wrote in reply to my question, “Was He inside the local assemblies or outside?” To this you answered, “Ans - How do I answer this (obviously leading) question? How can anyone answer this question? The Lord is seen standing in the midst of 7 golden lampstands. How can anyone take this vision to answer the question on His location inside or outside the local assemblies? I do not see a correlation between His standing in the vision to His being physically inside or outside the local assemblies.” If you could answer my question, as you quoted in your initial paragraph, this question would not have been asked. Even that question, as you quoted in your initial frame was resulted from your answer in the other thread. Could you answer the question, “Was He inside the local assemblies or outside?” If you try to give ‘smart Alek’ answers to simple questions, then you may receive questions as you found is #4.

You wrote, “I will tell you this, I will not give answers that are not supported by or logically inferred by the inspired text of scripture, no matter how much you force me to do so. If you force me to answer questions that do not have a scriptural basis, I will be correct in calling such questions as 'leading questions'.” Now, I have to say that you are not telling the truth. You asked on 17 Aug 2015, “Was the Lord Jesus literally standing outside the Laodicean church and knocking on the door of their place, as stated by you?”  This question contradicts what you wrote on 31 Aug 2015.

To the question of 17 Aug 2015, I answered: <<<In the verse you quoted, there is the statement, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock.” There is another statement from the One who stands and knocks at the door, “If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.” These two statements should provide the answer.>>> Your question indicate that you do not believe that the Lord was standing and knocking at the door of the assembly (Ekklesia) at Laodicea when He said that is exactly what He was doing.

Do you think that the Revelation 3:20 is the inspired Scripture? You have already indicated that you do not do so. You are the one who was engaged in asking ‘leading questions.’ After asking your ‘leading question,’ you accuse others with asking ‘leading questions.’

Of course, you do not believe in the inspiration of the Scriptures, because you have already changed the words in the Scriptures. You changed the word ‘end’ to ‘bury’ in Romans 10:4. You also wrote that Paul was engaged in burying the law. You also wrote that you do not know whose prayer (SDA’s or a believer’s) God will hear. You also questioned about the Lord standing and knocking at the door in Revelation 3:20. You must read the Scriptures as they are written and not as you want them to be. After all these, you assert that you do not do such things.

Your answer to the next question (#6) is another ‘smart Alek’ answer. When you brought the Revelation 3:20 into the discussion, I do not have to specify that as a reference to you. However, I have to remind you of its context and that is from the Revelation 1:9 trough 3:22. You must answer question #6. You started this thread by asking questions and refuse to answer simple questions in simplicity. My questions are provided in my first reply.

You started your questioning in another thread by writing that I quoted Revelation 3:20, while I did not. When I questioned, you wrote that you did not write that I quoted that verse, while you did that. The fact is that you wrote that I quoted the Revelation 3:20. Now you write, “But how did you get to "knocking at the door of the assembly at Laodicea"?” this is a question from you to me. If you read the Revelation 3:15-22, is there any other assembly mentioned? If not, what assembly’s door was He knocking? You claim that you believe in the inspiration of the Scriptures and then through your writings and questions you try your very best to change the text in the Scriptures. On the other hand, when you read the Revelation 3:20, do you read that the Lord Jesus Christ—the Son of Man—was knocking at the door of your house. That may be true, because you change the Word of God as mentioned against the Laodiceans and you do that without any conscience. There are plagues guaranteed for such actions.

In this thread you have introduced a ‘physical door’ to find fault with others. Are you adding or taking away from the text?

You must answer the next question, #7.

At last you ran out of your ‘smart Alek’ answers. You answered my question, #8, “Ans - Yes He is knocking on the outside. But to claim that an omnipresent divine being can be limited to being just outside a door, does not accord with scripture. Thank you for providing a scripture reference for this question.” Why are you adding about the omnipresence of God? In revealing about His standing and knocking, the Son of Man did not evoke or say anything about His omnipresence. Only the one who wants to change what the Son of Man revealed will refuse to read what is written as it is written. It is against His requirement in Luke 10:26. Could you answer what is written as it is written? On the other hand, are you saying that you are incapable of reading and stating what is written as it is written? Yes, that is what you are doing, you refuse to read what is written as it is written. Then you insist that God must abide by your command.

To the next question, #9, you wrote, “Ans - Yes, the Lord is knocking from the outside…” You have given this answer that the Lord Jesus Christ was standing outside the assembly at Laodicea more than once. You did that, without giving me any chance to give you the definition of ‘inside’ and ‘outside.’ You knew the meaning of those words, but pretended and demanded that I should give the meaning of those words before you could give a proper answer. It only shows your mental model that governs your mental attitude.

After giving the answer, even though you did not remember that you asked for the meaning of words before. Your questions were, “Here are some related questions for you: From outside the shut door, where did the Lord promise to enter into? Also what activity did He promise to those who open the door? Was this promised activity of a personal and private nature OR was it of a public nature? You will find the answers for these questions in Rev 3:20. Just as I showed the willingness to answer your questions so far, will you also show some willingness to answer the questions I raised?” If it says in Revelation 3:20 that it was of public in nature, then it was so. On the other hand, if it says that it was private in nature, then it was so. As I cannot find those two as His conditions, I cannot say whether it was public or private in nature.

However, I could say this that it was written in a letter from the Son of Man to the Ekklesia (assembly) at Laodicea through John. It was part of the revelation of what is mentioned as the prophecy. What is written as part of a prophecy from the Lord should not be classified as private or public by a man. Your mental model about God and His Word is not as it should be. You are not above God to make such decisions. This is my answer to your question that I quoted in the previous paragraph.

You concluded your posting by writing, “The reason I asked you for the scriptural reference is that we had a few exchanges the previous thread where you asserted multiple times that you did not quote Rev 3:20. So, on this thread, I want the reference to come from you, rather than me assuming which part of scripture you are referring about. In my first post I said, "If your statement had nothing to do with Rev 3:20, we do not have to bring it up in this discussion at all." You had the opportunity to state that this reference is correct for your statement. But you chose not to do so. You reference to atheist is simply another unwarranted and unjustified attack, which deserves no response.” Again you flip-flopped. You wrote that the reference on this thread about Revelation 3:20 should come from me and not from you. However, you started this thread with reference to the other thread and by default you have already brought the reference. Not only that, you also mentioned about Revelation 3:20 in the initial frame of this thread and you also quoted what you wrote on 31 Aug 2015. Anyone could see your flip-flop on this claim. You did brought Revelation 3:20 and then pretended that you did not know about Revelation 3:20, after that you wrote that you knew about Revelation 3:20. Therefore, when did you know about Revelation 3:20? It should be before you pretended about not knowing that but knew it when you pretended. That makes your pretention a false one.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 2 Sep 2015 7:36:15 PM Close

Dear Mr. Koshy,

You have not addressed some of my questions from 31 Aug 2015:

Q4: When the Son of Man is standing in the midst of the golden lamps, is He inside the lamps, outside the lamps, or on top of the lamps?

I asked, "Perhaps we can proceed with this "simple question" if you define "inside the lamp, outside the lamp, or on top of the lamp". Can you do that, please? When you do, please clarify if a lamp is a hollow entity for the someone to be inside a lamp (singular, as you used 'lamp', not lamps). Also what is outside a lamp? What is on top of a lamp? A flame of fire is what one expects on top of a lamp, so are you talking about the Lord being on top of the fire? Please clarify."

 

Q6: If the Lord Jesus Christ—Son of Man—was knocking at the door of the assembly at Laodicea, was He standing?

I asked, "Yes the Lord is standing and knocking! But how did you conclude that the Lord is standing at the physical door of the assembly in Laodicea? Please clarify and we can proceed with this question"

Having read your response, let me add this:

The door referenced in Rev 3:20 can be an actual door as you imply, or it could be a symbolic door or a metaphor that helps the readers in Laodicea understand that they have excluded the Lord Jesus from their works. The metaphor of Him being outside the door is a powerful imagery that forces them to be convicted of their sinful ways. If you look at the entire letter, and understand all the other symbols (or metaphors) the Lord used, then we can conclude that the door in 3:20 is not an actual door, but a symbolic door, that the Lord used to communicate to the believers in Laodicea.

The letter uses metaphors extensively to deliver the Lord's message: (the closed door should not be seen as an actual door, anymore than the other metaphors below are seen as actual)

- the cold/hot water metaphor

- the lukewarm water metaphor

- the vomit metaphor

- the rich/poor metaphor

- the blind and naked metaphor

- the gold refined in fire metaphor

- the white garment metaphor

- the eye slave metaphor

and finally,

- the closed door metaphor

- the dining metaphor

So, I ask again, (please read the descriptions I wrote above first) - how did you conclude that the Lord is standing at the actual door of the assembly in Laodicea? (since you do not like 'physical' door, I am rewording to 'actual' door). Why is the closed door not symbolic or a metaphor for a closed heart?

 

Q9: When He said that if anyone opens the door then He “will come in,” then does that indicate that He was knocking at the door from outside?

Quote, "To the next question, #9, you wrote, “Ans - Yes, the Lord is knocking from the outside…” You have given this answer that the Lord Jesus Christ was standing outside the assembly at Laodicea more than once. You did that, without giving me any chance to give you the definition of ‘inside’ and ‘outside.’ You knew the meaning of those words, but pretended and demanded that I should give the meaning of those words before you could give a proper answer. It only shows your mental model that governs your mental attitude."

I know what the terms "knocking at the door from outside" mean. By extension, I also know what the inside of a door means as well. I do not know what the inside of a lamp and outside of a lamp means. Thats why I asked for that clarification in Q4.

****************

Quote, "After giving the answer, even though you did not remember that you asked for the meaning of words before. Your questions were, “Here are some related questions for you: From outside the shut door, where did the Lord promise to enter into? Also what activity did He promise to those who open the door? Was this promised activity of a personal and private nature OR was it of a public nature? You will find the answers for these questions in Rev 3:20. Just as I showed the willingness to answer your questions so far, will you also show some willingness to answer the questions I raised?” If it says in Revelation 3:20 that it was of public in nature, then it was so. On the other hand, if it says that it was private in nature, then it was so. As I cannot find those two as His conditions, I cannot say whether it was public or private in nature."

Here are my answers to my own questions, which you did not answer:

1 - From outside the shut door, where did the Lord promise to enter into?

Ans - He promised to come in to the person who opens. He did not say that He will come in to the assembly. He is addressing each believer in 3:20, individually.

2 - What activity did He promise to those who open the door?

Ans - He promised to dine with the person and he with Him - its a picture of intimate fellowship. This is in sharp contrast to the metaphor of vomiting the church out of His mouth. So, while He threatened to vomit the church out of His mouth, He is appealing to each believer to include the Lord in the works of lives and have intimate fellowship with Him. Such fellowship should be done to avoid the lukewarm works.

3 - Was this promised activity of a personal and private nature OR was it of a public nature?

Ans - The threat to vomit the church was to the entire assembly and it is public threat of punishment. The promise to come in and dine is the Lord reaching out to any individual who upon reading this letter and open the closed door of his heart to allow Him into their lukewarm works. That individual alone gets the benefit of that intimate fellowship with the Lord. So the promise is to each person.

As is evident from my analysis, in Rev 3:20 the Lord Jesus is not standing outside the actual door of the church at Laodicea and knocking to get inside the church. It is an appeal to each believer encouraging them to do their works by including the Son of Man in intimate fellowship inside their heart.

I hope you will respond to the questions I asked again in this frame, as well as comment on the interpretation of Rev 3:20 as stated above.

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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 2 Sep 2015 8:05:19 PM Close

Errata/corrections

- the cold/hot metaphor (deleted 'water')

- the lukewarm metaphor (deleted 'water')

The scriptures do not state that the Lord is talking about 'water' in connection with the cold or hot or lukewarm metaphor. I apologize for this error.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 14 Sep 2015 1:30:22 PM Close

Dear ‘moses2006,’

Thank you for the exposition of the letter to the Assembly at Laodicea.

You brought Revelation 3:20 into this discussion and you should not have pretended that you did not know anything about it, in answering my nine questions. It shows your untruthfulness or dishonesty in discussing scriptural matters.

In the other thread from which this is a spinoff, you wrote by pretention about things that have overflowed into this thread. This thread is yours and we will keep it that way.

Could you tell me about certain terms that you used in the past on this or the other threads? You wrote about a ‘physical door’ before. Where do you read about such a thing? I did not write about it. You admitted that, when you quoted me, “where you stated, " It is what is written in the letter to Laodicea, where the Lord is standing outside their gathering place and knocking at the door to open to Him."” I did not write about a ‘physical door.’

Now you are trying to make an ‘actual door’ to be a bone of contention. I did not write about an ‘actual door,’ either. Why are you changing your own terms? Is it because I am not biting own your bait? Of course, you are doing that as you being a master of intrigue.

I did not quote Revelation 3:20, but you wrote that I did in the other thread. Then you write, repeatedly that you did not write that I quoted Revelation 3:20. What you wrote does not become what you did not write by writing that you did not write it, because you wrote it.

You pretended that you did not even know about Revelation 3:20 and provided a ‘smart Alek’ answer to my question and afterwards wrote that you did so to force me to write about Revelation 3:20. At the same time, you conveniently forgot that I brought Revelation 1:9-20 as the context of Revelation 3:20. You should fear God and His Word in discussing the Scriptural matters. Even the Satan fear God.

You wrote, “He promised to come in to the person who opens. He did not say that He will come in to the assembly. He is addressing each believer in 3:20, individually.” I read in Revelation 3:14 that the letter was addressed to the angel of the Ekklesia (church) at Laodicea. It is not to an individual, but to the angel who is representing the group that is known as the Ekklesia at Laodicea. We do not know much about this angel.

Another aspect of concern in what you wrote and I quoted from you in the above paragraph is that where you used the emphasis, using bold letters. You emphasized “in to the person,” from the expression “I will come in to him,” in KJV. Here is how you used your trickery to mislead others. I invite you to tell me about the Greek expression EISELEUSOMAI PROS AUTON. If you do, then you will contradict yourself. Since you are taking the initiative, in misleading the unsuspecting readers, I ask you to explain it from the original language. To help you, let me say that it tells about the ‘entering’ of the Lord Jesus Christ—the Son of Man—and giving assurance to him who opened the door by drawing unto him. It is not about entering unto or to him.   

You wrote a list of metaphors in the letter to the Ekklesia at Laodicea. Why did you omitted the ‘entering’ or ‘come in’ being a metaphor? Could you revise your list of metaphors and provide a new and corrected list? If ‘vomit’ is metaphor, why not ‘come in’ should not be?

Allow me to use your method. You wrote about a ‘closed door metaphor’ and a ‘dining metaphor.’ Where is the closed door metaphor in Revelation 3:14-22? I read about a command to ‘open the door.’ That does not make ‘a closed door metaphor.’ It may imply that there is a door and that is closed and the Son of Man will not open it. It must be opened by those who built it. You should read John 10 to get some knowledge about it. If you ask me questions about John 10, I will answer it by asking you to answer some question. I want you to read the Word of God, as taught by the Son—the Lord Jesus Christ.

All you questions and answers are nothing but products of your mind. You came-up with those after reading what was written by another person. Could you read the Scriptures with the fear of God and His Word?

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 28 Sep 2015 8:21:32 PM Close

Dear Mr. Koshy,

I have answered all of your questions except for Q4, for which I am waiting for your clarification. Please provide the following clarification:

I asked, "Perhaps we can proceed with this "simple question" if you define "inside the lamp, outside the lamp, or on top of the lamp". Can you do that, please? When you do, please clarify if a lamp is a hollow entity for the someone to be inside a lamp (singular, as you used 'lamp', not lamps). Also what is outside a lamp? What is on top of a lamp? A flame of fire is what one expects on top of a lamp, so are you talking about the Lord being on top of the fire? Please clarify."

Since most of the questions are answered, can you now explain your statement, "It is what is written in the letter to Laodicea, where the Lord is standing outside their gathering place and knocking at the door to open to Him."

The expression "actual door" or "physical door" are not bones of contention, unless you zero in on these terms just to avoid giving a straight answer. I used these words to indicate the door outside Laodicean church gathering place, which you referred to. I also want to distinguish this door from a metaphorical door that I wrote about. I have written and explained why the door referenced in Rev 3:20 is a metaphorical door, not an actual physical door.

Now it is time for you to explain your statement, "It is what is written in the letter to Laodicea, where the Lord is standing outside their gathering place and knocking at the door to open to Him." Can you do that?

Quote, " You wrote, “He promised to come in to the person who opens. He did not say that He will come in to the assembly. He is addressing each believer in 3:20, individually.” I read in Revelation 3:14 that the letter was addressed to the angel of the Ekklesia (church) at Laodicea. It is not to an individual, but to the angel who is representing the group that is known as the Ekklesia at Laodicea. We do not know much about this angel."

By your comment on "angel of the Ekklesia (church) at Laodicea" are you saying that the Lord Jesus' words were addressed to this angel and not to the believers in Laodicea? Please clarify.

Quote, "Another aspect of concern in what you wrote and I quoted from you in the above paragraph is that where you used the emphasis, using bold letters. You emphasized “in to the person,” from the expression “I will come in to him,” in KJV. Here is how you used your trickery to mislead others. I invite you to tell me about the Greek expression EISELEUSOMAI PROS AUTON. If you do, then you will contradict yourself. Since you are taking the initiative, in misleading the unsuspecting readers, I ask you to explain it from the original language. To help you, let me say that it tells about the ‘entering’ of the Lord Jesus Christ—the Son of Man—and giving assurance to him who opened the door by drawing unto him. It is not about entering unto or to him. "

I am not a Greek language expert to tell you about "the Greek expression EISELEUSOMAI PROS AUTON". I am trusting the KJV scholars translated the Greek words correctly in Rev 3:20, when they gave "I will come in to him" as the translation. Are you saying, by this question to me, that the KJV translation is incorrect? If so, what is the correct translation? For your information, American Standard Version, NKJV and the Revised Standard Version match the KJV translation. But you are probably a more distinguished translator than all of them. If so, please provide the correct translation and an explanation as to why the others (KJV, NKJV, ASV, RSV) are incorrect.

Quote, "You wrote a list of metaphors in the letter to the Ekklesia at Laodicea. Why did you omitted the ‘entering’ or ‘come in’ being a metaphor? Could you revise your list of metaphors and provide a new and corrected list? If ‘vomit’ is metaphor, why not ‘come in’ should not be?"

I did not write that I had provided a complete list of metaphors. If I did, can you show where I did that? Where did you get these expressions ‘entering’ or ‘come in’? Can you please cite a reference verse? They could be metaphors, but I want to be sure these words are in the inspired text.

Quote, "Allow me to use your method. You wrote about a ‘closed door metaphor’ and a ‘dining metaphor.’ Where is the closed door metaphor in Revelation 3:14-22? I read about a command to ‘open the door.’ That does not make ‘a closed door metaphor.’ It may imply that there is a door and that is closed and the Son of Man will not open it. It must be opened by those who built it. You should read John 10 to get some knowledge about it."

Are you saying that the doors referenced in John 10 and Rev 3:20 are same or similar? Do you know we read about 3 doors in John 10? Which door in John 10 is correspond to the closed door in Rev 3:20? I eagerly wait for your answer and hope to be able to teach you more about this topic.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 1 Oct 2015 2:51:23 PM Close

Dear ‘moses2006,’

You wrote on 28 Sep 2015, “I asked, "Perhaps we can proceed with this "simple question" if you define "inside the lamp, outside the lamp, or on top of the lamp". Can you do that, please? When you do, please clarify if a lamp is a hollow entity for the someone to be inside a lamp (singular, as you used 'lamp', not lamps). Also what is outside a lamp? What is on top of a lamp? A flame of fire is what one expects on top of a lamp, so are you talking about the Lord being on top of the fire? Please clarify."” Do you know why I asked you about the ‘inside,’ ‘outside,’ and ‘on top’ question? It was because you were bringing the omnipresence of God when discussing about the Son of Man standing and knocking at the door. If you do not know the meaning of those three words, you may use what is in the dictionaries. Please answer the fourth question. By the way, you have already admitted that the Son of Man was outside the assembly.   

You wrote, “The expression "actual door" or "physical door" are not bones of contention, unless you zero in on these terms just to avoid giving a straight answer.” No one will make those expressions to be interesting points, unless the person who first used them made it to be bones of contentions. You are the one who made them bones of contentions.

Also remember that you also made some other words or expressions to be other bones of contentions. When you add certain words or expressions, such as “literally standing outside” when the original expression was “standing outside the door,” you are introducing bones of contentions.

When you add intentionally certain words or expression and insist on it, then they become bones of contentions. In the past, you asked about the hollowness of the lamp. When you asked that question about the hollowness of the lamp, you are denying the omnipresence of God; because there is an implication that God cannot exists in a solid lamp. I have not written about the omnipresence of God in the thread that you referred to. I made only a simple sentence about the Lord standing and knocking at the door.

Such deliberate manipulation of another person’s writing and making this Forum a place of camp of armies of war is not Christ-like, but you are tampering with tamping.

If you are honest in what you wrote on the thread that has a title, Being Christ-like, this thread is a testimonial to the fact that honesty was lost somewhere between the two threads.

Please answer my fourth question that you have not answered, so far. Don’t worry about the lamp being solid or hollow as a bone of contention, because I am not making your youth an issue in this matter.       

You also wrote, “I am not a Greek language expert to tell you about "the Greek expression EISELEUSOMAI PROS AUTON". I am trusting the KJV scholars translated the Greek words correctly in Rev 3:20, when they gave "I will come in to him" as the translation. Are you saying, by this question to me, that the KJV translation is incorrect? If so, what is the correct translation? For your information, American Standard Version, NKJV and the Revised Standard Version match the KJV translation. But you are probably a more distinguished translator than all of them. If so, please provide the correct translation and an explanation as to why the others (KJV, NKJV, ASV, RSV) are incorrect.” I only asked about the Greek expression in Revelation 3:20. In reality, it was you who started this thread with Revelation 3:20 and I asked you to read that verse in its context. I did not say anything against translations? Is it Christ-like for you to go on with various translations and to engage in a dung-throwing and mudslinging dual? It is not Christ-like.

Since you have given what is in KJV, let me ask you, what does that convey to you? You are very good to make implications on what I write and also on what is written about Christ. When the Son of Man said that He is knocking at the door, it implied to you something about an ‘actual door, ‘physical door,’ etc.  What does the expression,” I will come in to him,” convey to you?

Let me show you another incident in which you are not Christ-like. You wrote, “I did not write that I had provided a complete list of metaphors. If I did, can you show where I did that? Where did you get these expressions ‘entering’ or ‘come in’? Can you please cite a reference verse? They could be metaphors, but I want to be sure these words are in the inspired text.” You might not have written that your list is exhaustive, but you made a list. I asked that question, because you made ‘vomit’ a member of your metaphor-list.

Do you know that your metaphor-list was dated 2 Sep 2015? I replied to you on 8 Sep 2015. What did I write? Did you read the two paragraphs before the reference to your list was made? If you did, then you will read that I asked about your writing about “in to the person,” by expressing that as the correct expression. You even used bold letters. I explained this for your benefit on 8 Sep 2015. You should read that again. You have taken a penknife like that king of Israel and cut off the God-breathed—inspired—word to suit your idea. It is not Christ-like by any means.

You could make sure that those words are in the Scriptures, only if you are honest and read my posting of 8 Sep 2015.

Let me also say that the Greek expression EISELEUSOMAI PROS AUTON could be literally translated as “I will enter to him.”

You completed your posting by writing, “Are you saying that the doors referenced in John 10 and Rev 3:20 are same or similar? Do you know we read about 3 doors in John 10? Which door in John 10 is correspond to the closed door in Rev 3:20? I eagerly wait for your answer and hope to be able to teach you more about this topic.” Before you wrote this, you quoted me and that does not deal with what you are asking me about. You should read what I wrote.

Since you asked me to help you to understand the doors in John 10, could you write about them—in the order in which they appear? It will be a good starting point. I hope that you know the meaning of the word ‘start.’ I do not want you to go on a tangent on that word. If you do not know the meaning of that word, then you should consult any dictionary of your choice, even a dictionary in Malayalam.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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