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Keralabrethren.net: General Forum: Nephilim - Do they exist today?

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# 07972 :  Nephilim - Do they exist today?

The Nephilim, the product of the sons of god mingling with the daughters of Adam, the great Biblical giants, “the fallen ones,” the Rephaim, “the dead ones”, these descriptions are all applied to one group of characters found within the scriptures.

Since we believe the days of Lord are near? Lets ourselves three questions>

1. Do they exist today?

2. Do they always stand against God. 

3. What would be the outcome for them during judgement day?

Regards,

Joe

Post by : paizanjoe  View Profile    since : 5 Mar 2016


Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 8 Mar 2016 4:59:58 PM Close

Hello,

First of all thank you for your response. In a forum, one must be in a position to have a to and fro discussion on various topics which are mentioned in the forum. After all this, that is how one grows in the understanding. But all said and done, I live that to people's judgement.

There are three translations of the Genesis verse which I took, I could have gone for more - but these are the ones which are referred to in most circumstances:

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. – KJV

The N’filim were on the earth in those days, and also afterwards, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; these were the ancient heroes, men of renown. – CJB

In those days were the giants on the earth, and also afterwards, when the sons of Godhad come in to the daughters of men, and they had borne children to them; these were the heroes, who of old were men of renown – Darby

English translations give it as 'giants' and the Jewish bible - calls it as it is - Nephilim. This could be a subject to a difference in opinion, understanding and intepretation.

I agree, with your point on the verse pointed on Job - that has no correlation with the verse in Genesis.

My question was not to decide on how they were reproduced. But to understand the concept a little higher as I repeat: 

1. Do they exist today - I do not know cause I have not derived any insights on this apart from looking at people who are tall and large. But then science says it could be hereditary or a hormonal imbalance. So I have no judgement there.

2. Do they always stand against God - Not clear. Because in Genesis - they were warriors, but if we look at them being at the dawn of the creation. Maybe a few hundred years from Adam - who were they fighting to be heroes? Or were they heroes in a different context?  

3. What would be the outcome for them during judgement day? - Do we have a foresight from the OT and NT on this?

Regards,

Joe

 

 

 

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 8 Mar 2016 7:06:43 PM Close

I agree with most of your points. Let me clarify one point, I never mentioned that they were angels or angelic beings. It was only about giants. 

My point was to understand more about them. With regards to angels, i believe that when they sin, they are also judged.

One line of thought could be is that they do not have redemption or salvation like us. The reason is because they are in all respects,with God. 

I have read the apocryphal books. They are interesting. I would not call them fables, or I would not discount them. Of course, they are not the word of God. But they do give us certain knowledge about certain mysterious things. Again, I stress - they are not the word of God, if they contradict (which in some books they do), you take them for knowledge and reference. Not for practical 'Christian Liviing' purposes.

The last point, I agree there are a lot misintepretations and mythical things that gone in the church. Myth is considered as something which involves supernatural beings or ciricumstances. Now if we look at the scriptures, there are lot of deep mysteries and revelations. Things spoken about in one occasion or so - in which the reader is supposed to understand the context. Sometimes we don't understand the context about it directly. Maybe there are other sources. Or maybe we do not grasp it like Paul or Enoch since we are not ready for it. We do not know.

Regards,

Joe

 

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 9 Mar 2016 6:23:04 PM Close

Dear ‘paizanjoe,’

You asked three questions on 5 Mar 2016. Though you referred to three different translations on the verse from Genesis 6, you did not search the Scriptures to find your answers.

Your first question was, “Do they exist today?” You also wrote that your question was based on the phrase ‘And also afterwards.’ Moses who wrote that expression also wrote when that happened. If you want the answer, you should search the Scriptures, using the translation of your choice. If you do so, then you will find what Moses meant by that expression. If you do not want to search the Scriptures, but are anxious to search the cyberspace, you may do that.

The Jewish Old Testament is called TANAK. Since you have an English translation of it in English, you may use that and you will find the same word NEPHILIM again. That is what Moses meant when he wrote the expression of interest from Genesis 6:4. That newly acquired knowledge will provide the answer to your first question.

Your second question was, “Do they always stand against God.” When you find the place where Moses wrote about when the Nephilim appeared on earth afterwards, there you may find the answer to your second question. If not, then you may find it many other places in the Old Testament. You must read the Old Testament. If you think that reading the Old Testament is too much, try at least to read Isaiah.

Your third question was, “What would be the outcome for them during judgement day?” To understand the answer to this question, you must read Isaiah. Being the fallen ones, they will not rise.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : palatty   View Profile   Since : 10 Mar 2016 2:09:37 AM Close

Comments on GENESIS 6:2 in "The MacArthur Study Bible is reproduced hereunder:

"The sons of God saw the daughters of men :The sons of God, identified elsewhere almost exclusively as angels (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7), saw and took wives of the human race. This produced an un-natural union which violated the God-ordained order of human marriage and procreation (Gen. 2:24). Some have argued that the sons of God were the sons of Seth who cohabited with the daughters of Cain; others suggest they were perhaps human kings wanting to build harems. But the passage puts strong emphasis on the angelic v/s human contrast. The NT places this account in sequence with other Genesis events and identifies it as involving fallen angels who indwelt men (see notes on 2 Pet 2:4,5; Jude 6) Mathew 22:30 does not necessarily negate the possibility that angels are capable of procreation, but just they do not marry. To procreate physically, they had to possess human, male bodies."

Paulose   

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 10 Mar 2016 9:03:24 AM Close

Dear ‘Koshy’

My answers to you in italics

You asked three questions on 5 Mar 2016. Though you referred to three different translations on the verse from Genesis 6, you did not search the Scriptures to find your answers.

Why do you presume that I have not read? I would request that you would read the first paragraph. This is a discussion, to understand perception of the topic at hand.

 

Your first question was, “Do they exist today?” You also wrote that your question was based on the phrase ‘And also afterwards.’ Moses who wrote that expression also wrote when that happened. If you want the answer, you should search the Scriptures, using the translation of your choice. If you do so, then you will find what Moses meant by that expression. If you do not want to search the Scriptures, but are anxious to search the cyberspace, you may do that.

A question can have different answers. For example: Jude 14-15 the verse is also present in the fabled book of Enoch, and he, Jude speaks of that. Now there are multiple interpretation on the subject. I was looking at the one that is the most logical.  

The Jewish Old Testament is called TANAK. Since you have an English translation of it in English, you may use that and you will find the same word NEPHILIM again. That is what Moses meant when he wrote the expression of interest from Genesis 6:4. That newly acquired knowledge will provide the answer to your first question.

Thank you for your ‘new acquired knowledge’. But I already know the bifurcation of the ‘Tanakh’ – which is also Tenakh, Tenak, Tanach

Your second question was, “Do they always stand against God.” When you find the place where Moses wrote about when the Nephilim appeared on earth afterwards, there you may find the answer to your second question. If not, then you may find it many other places in the Old Testament. You must read the Old Testament. If you think that reading the Old Testament is too much, try at least to read Isaiah.

It is simple question – apart from Genesis – the basic classification of them or their descendants are standing against the people of God. But this matter is closed.

Your third question was, “What would be the outcome for them during judgement day?” To understand the answer to this question, you must read Isaiah. Being the fallen ones, they will not rise.

That is in the OT, I think Rick’s perception on this topic for NT is worth looking at: Giants were there; they are there now, and they will be there in future. Everyone faces same judgment if they have not accepted Jesus as Savior. There is no difference between giants or eunuchs or ordinary men before God.

Since they would be there, there salvation is dependent on their acceptance of Christ as Saviour.

Why? In the old testament. Deuteronomy 23:3

Here even their 10th generation could not enter the congregation of God’s people. But we know, Christ’s lineage while he was in flesh.

Therefore, we still hold faith to a merciful and ever forgiving God.

Regards,

Joe

 

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Mar 2016 4:11:03 PM Close

Dear ‘paizanjoe,’

On my statement that you did not search the Scriptures, you responded by asking, “Why do you presume that I have not read? I would request that you would read the first paragraph. This is a discussion, to understand perception of the topic at hand.” You observed that I accepted what you wrote in the first paragraph and answered the questions from your second paragraph of your initial posting. What is your logic in writing the above?

To understand the perception of the topic, I asked you to search the Scriptures. If you have read the Scriptures, then tell the readers about your answer to your first question. You should read the Scriptures to search it.

On your question, “Do they exist today?,” you wrote, “A question can have different answers. For example: Jude 14-15 the verse is also present in the fabled book of Enoch, and he, Jude speaks of that. Now there are multiple interpretation on the subject. I was looking at the one that is the most logical.” I did not read about any “fabled book of Enoch” in Jude 14-15 in the Bible or even in your initial posting. You did not ask anything about what is in Jude 14-15. Since you asked me about reading the first paragraph, could you show me where did you write about Jude 14-15 in your posting of 5 Mar 2016? When you have not done that, what is your ‘most logical’ justification of writing the above on 9 Mar 2016?

You wrote, “Thank you for your ‘new acquired knowledge’. But I already know the bifurcation of the ‘Tanakh’ – which is also Tenakh, Tenak, Tanach” You wrote that you already knew the “bifurcation of the Tanakh.” However, I find that there is an opportunity to educate you. You should understand the meaning of the word, ‘bifurcation.’ Could you write about this ‘bifurcation of the Tanakh?’ It cannot be “Tenakh, Tenak, Tanach.” If that is what you meant by ‘bifurcation,’ then there are four variations to consider—Tanakh, Tenakh, Tenak, and Tanach. That is not a ‘bifurcation,’ by any means. What are the bifurcation of the Tanakh, as you know?

On your question, “Do they always stand against God,” you wrote that it is a simple question and also that this matter is closed. How did it get closed? Did it get closed by your knowledge of some kind of bifurcation of the Tanakh into four different spelling format in English? What is your perception on your question?

Your next question was, “What would be the outcome for them during judgement day?” How did you connect Deuteronomy 23:3 with Nephilim? Without connecting the Ammonite or Moabite with the Nephilim, you cannot say that is your perception. You have work to do and that work is to search the Scriptures, especially in Isaiah.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 11 Mar 2016 7:43:41 PM Close

Dear Koshy,

Clearly either there is clear cur understanding problem. Or this is something that would take time to resolve.

Mine in italics

On my statement that you did not search the Scriptures, you responded by asking, “Why do you presume that I have not read? I would request that you would read the first paragraph. This is a discussion, to understand perception of the topic at hand.” You observed that I accepted what you wrote in the first paragraph and answered the questions from your second paragraph of your initial posting. What is your logic in writing the above?

What is your logic? This is a forum, I can post a topic, present certain research, have some questions, see what people have their opinion based on their understanding on their scritptures, Post mine based on the same. Mutually edify/ Now I cannot make my logic more clearer than this.

To understand the perception of the topic, I asked you to search the Scriptures. If you have read the Scriptures, then tell the readers about your answer to your first question. You should read the Scriptures to search it.

I have given you the answer for this above

On your question, “Do they exist today?,” you wrote, “A question can have different answers. For example: Jude 14-15 the verse is also present in the fabled book of Enoch, and he, Jude speaks of that. Now there are multiple interpretation on the subject. I was looking at the one that is the most logical.” I did not read about any “fabled book of Enoch” in Jude 14-15 in the Bible or even in your initial posting. You did not ask anything about what is in Jude 14-15. Since you asked me about reading the first paragraph, could you show me where did you write about Jude 14-15 in your posting of 5 Mar 2016? When you have not done that, what is your ‘most logical’ justification of writing the above on 9 Mar 2016?

From your first line – You have not read. So you don’t know. I had given you an example. You don’t take it as an example. If you can utter ‘Tanak’ and considering or presuming, you are bible teacher who knows quite a lot (which I will give to you). I assumed you would know. And if you had seen or read the earlier posts you could have understood some of the context.

You wrote, “Thank you for your ‘new acquired knowledge’. But I already know the bifurcation of the ‘Tanakh’ – which is also Tenakh, Tenak, Tanach” You wrote that you already knew the “bifurcation of the Tanakh.” However, I find that there is an opportunity to educate you. You should understand the meaning of the word, ‘bifurcation.’ Could you write about this ‘bifurcation of the Tanakh?’ It cannot be “Tenakh, Tenak, Tanach.” If that is what you meant by ‘bifurcation,’ then there are four variations to consider—Tanakh, Tenakh, Tenak, and Tanach. That is not a ‘bifurcation,’ by any means. What are the bifurcation of the Tanakh, as you know?

Again – you didn’t understand. You wrote – Tanak and then I gave you the correct renditions of the word. Secondly, the ‘Tanakh’ was originally two books. Which was then sub divided into three and then more. I am sure now you will come with your own renditions based on what you understand but I don’t wish to go into the details. Because I didn’t raise the topic of Tanak – you did. Of course you will come back and say it was three cause it is ‘Tanak’ and this topic would be endless. I leave it to your preception.

On your question, “Do they always stand against God,” you wrote that it is a simple question and also that this matter is closed. How did it get closed? Did it get closed by your knowledge of some kind of bifurcation of the Tanakh into four different spelling format in English? What is your perception on your question?

Already answered you, repeating would be not fruitful.

Your next question was, “What would be the outcome for them during judgement day?” How did you connect Deuteronomy 23:3 with Nephilim? Without connecting the Ammonite or Moabite with the Nephilim, you cannot say that is your perception. You have work to do and that work is to search the Scriptures, especially in Isaiah.

It seems you really need to get a better understanding of what is written. Let me try one last time on this topic and then I will again, leave you to your understanding.

In many context, they appeared to be standing against God and Gods people. It was the same case for the Moabites and Ammonites. Therefore, a devstating curse. The connection is the grace of God. If God can show mercy even after his proclamation of curse to them. The Nephilims are eligible for this, hence I referred to one line which Rick has stated.

Once again, I do not wish to discuss this topic also. If you wish to reply to this. You can do this. But, I shall be back with some other topic for discussion. Meanwhile I would advise you would also meditate upon the ‘need’ of Isaiah in the context of Christ and  his mercy for mankind. 

Regards,

Joe

 

Shalom Malekim!!!

 

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