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Keralabrethren.net: General Forum: Heaven, Earth, Man, Angel and Sin

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# 07999 :  Heaven, Earth, Man, Angel and Sin

Romans 5:12

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Sin entered the 'world' through one man - Adam. We were all sinners.

2 Peter 2:4

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Angels have sinned and God was not merciful.

Isaiah 24:21

 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

Alternative: And it shall come to pass in that day,that Jehovah will punish the host of the high ones on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 

Alternative: When that day comes, Adonai will punish the armies of the high heaven on high, and the kings of the earth here on earth. 

Judgement statement for high and for earth. So all included. High is written in some translations as 'heaven'

Revelation 21:1 

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

A new heaven and a new earth will be created.

Question:

  1. The possibility of sin if it entered the world through man, has it entered the heavenly realm through the angels? 
  2. Is that why, there is there is a mention on new heaven and new earth. If observed, sin entered the world and not earth. Satan offers the Lord - the world and not the earth in the temptations. So earth by nature is not corrupt, but corrupted by man (Ecc 7:20). Still there is a need for a new one. So, why a new need for new heaven?
  3. Elect angels ( I Tim 5:21). Are they different from angels OR are they only a differentiation between angels of heaven and fallen angels?

These are the questions based on the following portions. May the Lord guide.

Regards,

Joe.

 

 

 

Post by : paizanjoe  View Profile    since : 10 Mar 2016


Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Mar 2016 4:07:35 PM Close

Dear ‘paizanjoe,’

You began this thread by quoting Romans 5:12; 2 Peter 2:4; Isaiah 24:21; and Revelation 21:1. You provided two alternatives under Isaiah 24:21. Could you explain these two alternatives?

You asked three questions. Your first question was, “The possibility of sin if it entered the world through man, has it entered the heavenly realm through the angels?” If you search the Scriptures for the Greek word for ‘world’ your question will be answered.

Your second question was, “Is that why, there is there is a mention on new heaven and new earth. If observed, sin entered the world and not earth. Satan offers the Lord - the world and not the earth in the temptations. So earth by nature is not corrupt, but corrupted by man (Ecc 7:20). Still there is a need for a new one. So, why a new need for new heaven?” Before you popped this question about the reason for the creation of a new heaven, you referred to Ecclesiastes 7:20. That verse does not say what you wrote. There is no reference to the nature of the earth in Ecclesiastes 7:20.

Another error in your logic is what you wrote about the statement of Satan. You wrote that the Satan offered the world to the Lord. Satan did not offer the world to the Lord. If he did, where did you read about it? Since your logic is built on two errors in question #2, could you restate your question?

You are reasoning like the lawyer who came to Jesus Christ and asked questions from what he thought that he read in the Law. To him, the answer from the Lord was that he should read the Law as it is written (Luke 10:26).  

Your third question was, “Elect angels ( I Tim 5:21). Are they different from angels OR are they only a differentiation between angels of heaven and fallen angels?” If you study the expression, ‘Elect,’ from the Bible, you will get the answer from the Bible.

You also wrote, “These are the questions based on the following portions.” I did not read any relevant portions that followed this sentence that could generate your questions.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 11 Mar 2016 8:04:08 PM Close

Dear ‘paizanjoe,’

My answers in italics

You began this thread by quoting Romans 5:12; 2 Peter 2:4; Isaiah 24:21; and Revelation 21:1. You provided two alternatives under Isaiah 24:21. Could you explain these two alternatives?

They are different translations in Darby and the Jewish edition. Hope that clears the air.

You asked three questions. Your first question was, “The possibility of sin if it entered the world through man, has it entered the heavenly realm through the angels?” If you search the Scriptures for the Greek word for ‘world’ your question will be answered.

‘Search the scripture for the greek word for world’. Let me repeat this. ‘Search the scripture for the greek word for world’. So you are telling me, I should know the Greek word of World? OR are you telling me there is a translation of greek word ‘world’ in the scriptures? What are you trying to say?   

 

Your second question was, “Is that why, there is there is a mention on new heaven and new earth. If observed, sin entered the world and not earth. Satan offers the Lord - the world and not the earth in the temptations. So earth by nature is not corrupt, but corrupted by man (Ecc 7:20). Still there is a need for a new one. So, why a new need for new heaven?” Before you popped this question about the reason for the creation of a new heaven, you referred to Ecclesiastes 7:20. That verse does not say what you wrote. There is no reference to the nature of the earth in Ecclesiastes 7:20.

I really dont know what is there to understand, but let me try. When man stays on this earth. There is his influence on the earth. So that is why, his sin corrupts the earth. If you want more proof of that, there is Genesis 6:12 just as an example. Of the corruption of earth. You can base yout nderstanding on how you want.

Another error in your logic is what you wrote about the statement of Satan. You wrote that the Satan offered the world to the Lord. Satan did not offer the world to the Lord. If he did, where did you read about it? Since your logic is built on two errors in question #2, could you restate your question?

Did you read the complete sentence? Satan offers the Lord - the world and not the earth in the temptations.  What part of the temptations do you not understand? Should have I added – Kingdoms as well to be more specific for your understanding?

You are reasoning like the lawyer who came to Jesus Christ and asked questions from what he thought that he read in the Law. To him, the answer from the Lord was that he should read the Law as it is written (Luke 10:26).  

I am fairly clear, but I guess you like creating a ‘melting pot’ by nitpicking. Which is okay. I have no issues. 

Your third question was, “Elect angels ( I Tim 5:21). Are they different from angels OR are they only a differentiation between angels of heaven and fallen angels?” If you study the expression, ‘Elect,’ from the Bible, you will get the answer from the Bible.

Okay. Point taken. Henceforth then, all your postings in the forum should be – please read the scripture and you will find the answer. And you should stand by it. Since you go on all the post by it. If someone post the topic. Thus shall be your answer. "Look at the scripitures."

You also wrote, “These are the questions based on the following portions.” I did not read any relevant portions that followed this sentence that could generate your questions.

You don’t have anything relevant and edifying to add, so you have not seen the questions, therefore you have not answered. That is okay

Regards,

Joe.

 

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 11 Mar 2016 8:16:39 PM Close

Please find my comments in italics

The possibility of sin if it entered the world through man, has it entered the heavenly realm through the angels?

There is no sin in heavenly realm. Sin entering heavenly realm through the angels is out of question and beyond anyone's imagination. Angels who rebelled against God were thrown out of heaven. God dwells in the third heaven.

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven" (2 Corinthians 12:2

“And there shall in no wise enter into it anything that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life” (Revelation 21:27)

How can we say it cannot enter the heavenly realm? Angels stay in heaven. They rebel there. When they sin, that is when they are cast. That would mean based on the being, sin can emerge wherever they are placed. I am talking about the current heaven and all its level.

I have read the verse of Ap. Paul on the third heaven. If the Lord stays in the third heaven? Who stays in the first and second? How many more would be there?

Revelation 21 talks about a new heaven and earth, where this would not happen.

Is that why, there is there is a mention on new heaven and new earth. If observed, sin entered the world and not earth. Satan offers the Lord - the world and not the earth in the temptations. So earth by nature is not corrupt, but corrupted by man (Ecc 7:20). Still there is a need for a new one. So, why a new need for new heaven?

When Adam sinned he lost dominion over the earth. The earth is cursed for man. God has full control over all events but He will not interfere until the time is ripe for full destruction. Jesus had cast away demons, but never did He destroy a single one fully. Example can be seen in Matthew 8:28-31.  Earth will not have renovation as some teach.  Satan is the prince of the air. It is this portion, where Satan is the prince of the air, and the earth that will fully be destroyed and not God's abode, which is third heaven.

"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2)

"...The heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat..."(2 Peter 3:10)

"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind".  (Isaiah 65:17)

So you agree with me there is a need for a new heaven and earth. Which is evident in passages and also clearly substantiated in Revelation. So we are in agreement here on earth. But heaven, if we go to what was stated earlier, then heaven is pure since all defilement are cast down. It need not be re-created, but it still passes as per the scriptures. Are you sure about the understanding that God stays in the third heaven only? Wouldn’t that be re-created as well. Yes, I agree with you on earth not being modified, that is wrong teaching.

Elect angels ( I Tim 5:21). Are they different from angels OR are they only a differentiation between angels of heaven and fallen angels?

The elect angels are those whom God preserved as ministering spirits to minister those who are heirs of salvation. God controls them and therefore they can never rebel against Him. They are ministers of flame of fire. The children of Israel received the Law by the disposition of angels.

"Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it" (Acts 7:53)

And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.  (Hebrews 1:7)
Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: (Psalms 104:4)
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? (Hebrews 1:14)

We should distinguish between fallen angels and evil spirits.  Satan has a kingdom and he has evil spirits under his control and all of them are in the world right now and he is the prince of air.Evil spirits are not bound in chains but they are active now.

"But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils"  (Matthew 12:24)

Fallen angels are those who rebelled against God and are chained and delivered to darkness reserved unto judgment. They are never released and never had they come out from abyss. The word used in 2 Peter 2:4 is “tartaroo” ( also called "Tartarus") Greek Strong's number 5020. This word is never used in the Bible again anywhere. The word is borrowed from Greek mythology by Jews. The meaning of which is lower part of the earth, abyss or hades (Gehenna), where wicked are imprisoned and tormented.

You are clear to a great extent. But then let’s take the context of Revelation 12:7-9 – they fight above and then are thrown down to earth. Then in Revelation 20:2-5, they are in the pit. So they are freed, isn’t that right? This is then the future, of them being released and coming up and finally facing the eternal battle?

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.  (Isaiah 24:21)

Host of the high ones refers to the objects of idolatry which are sun, moon and stars; they are not the angels as some suppose. The sun, moon, and the stars will be darkened.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" (Matthew 24:29)

The “kings of the earth” refers to the wicked powers that abuse their authority to harm or persecute the church. They are those who did fornication with the whore of Rome. They will make war with the Lamb, who overcomes them (Revelation 17:2)

Host is not used for the term of non-living but of the living. Sun Moon are all creation but don’t embody the living. I presume the term is for the devil who was also a host of the heaven.

 

 

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 12 Mar 2016 7:39:46 AM Close

Whether there is an elaboration or last post is fine. But there are still doubts that would linger. It is okay, we can all individually do our study and understand based on the following points listed in continuation with the explanation that is provided.

  1. If according to Revelation 12:4 it has already happened. Then as per the book of Revelation, and the sequence and pattern it follows - these things have already taken place till Revelation 20:6. Where the tense used is past. Then it is the future. So then he is bound for 1000 years. After he is released he starts seducing again and so forth. We know/don’t know if we are in the time that is predicted in revelation, only God knows. If not, then the discussion is different.
  2. Thank you for the explanation of the three heavens. But I still feel it is vague. It might be me. Because – explained it with the portions - then one can ask the question which heaven(s) was man trying to access through Babel? The verse in Isaiah 11:13-14: For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. The classification given according to the explanation is that the sides of north is the third heaven - point taken. Then we have all the need to believe the heavens =were modelled like the temple of God. Differentiated portions and sections. So then as per Revelation, this present heaven would also pass away in its entirety and the representative proof is the temple of Jerusalem which was destroyed.
  3. Lastly - ending all speculation or further talk of this topic - If as per the explanation given - the rebellious angels were once and for all cast away in the beginning. Then we might have to accept that this rebellion, even if it was of the past - had happened in the heaven and not earth. So if we go by that understanding there is obviously a need for complete purification - hence the new heaven and earth. If not, then there is a need for a better reasoning for a new heaven and earth – since out of the two – heaven is still considered pure and God’s thorne.

 

Regards,

Joe.

 

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 12 Mar 2016 10:05:35 AM Close

Thank you.

  1. It is still ambigious. because if something has happened. Then the visions would been directly conclusive to the past, present and future like in the book of Daniel. Here in the book of Revelation it is clear about the past,present and the future. But that could only be substantiated if we accept the past tense as past tense and not an assumption of future. Visions and Prpphecies are two different things as you stated. But here we are looking at visions.
  2. Then again, if you draw upon man's ignorance. Today he has access to space. And the heavens,as we call it space, is no more a challenge. e.g. we have HD photos of Pluto today. I dont think they were planning to access that at least.  There is an understanding which God puts in Genesis 11:6 - it is more about succeeding in doing the impossible. because man may have had limitless power to achieve what he desired. I think that is where the restriction have been put - hence different language and division so that the unity doesnt achieve the impossible. Who knows, and in God's great wisdom when he stated that, man could have reached the third heaven also if he was left to his devices? I am only assuming not making a statement. Afterall he was and is the image of God. Therefore, the creator puts the creation in place.
  3. I agree with what you say New Jersualem comes out of heaven. I only state that this heaven is a new heaven, because of the previous verses and references. It is what Christ said in Mark 2:22. the understanding would be new things will go in new places. I dont say that the old heaven is not pure, it is after all God's thorne and place we approach when we pray.. But for the newness of what is stated in the vision and promises given. A new Heaven and Earth has to be made.

With that I close this topic for further indivdual study. Thank you for your inputs, it is greatly appreciated and accepted.

Regards,

Joe 

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