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Keralabrethren.net: General Forum: Will believers be there in the tribulation?

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# 08251 :  Will believers be there in the tribulation?

I have heard a lot of sermons, heard a lot of commentaries on rapture and the tribulation.

Is it right for believers to think that some of them might be not taken in the rapture and kept in the tribulation?

Thoughts?

Regards,

Joe

Post by : paizanjoe  View Profile    since : 26 Jan 2017


Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 3 Feb 2017 6:56:41 AM Close

If Eternal Security is the ‘truth’ your question gets annulled. What should be the reason for some of the believers to be left behind?

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 6 Feb 2017 8:39:36 AM Close

My question exactly. Do people really know what salvation really means?

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 7 Feb 2017 6:12:54 AM Close

Dear Joe,

I am not sure whether ‘people’ you have cited refers to ‘believers’ in particular or the general public. Understanding what salvation means differs between ES proponents and CS proponents. For ES proponents, the understating of CS adherents is wrong and vice versa. 

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 10 Feb 2017 4:24:15 AM Close

Hello Jude,

As far as I know this is a believer's forum. So people generally who post their points of discussion are believers, hence - people :)

There are no CS or ES proponents in Christ. Neither did He preach about it. What He did, was save us from sin/death and give us eternal life. To say there could be believers who could/would face the 'tribulation' is not right. Then you have a discriminatory God. Who shows favouritism. But that's not the case. We have God who loves all mankind.

Regards,

Joe

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 10 Feb 2017 7:31:48 AM Close

Dear Joe,

Go through the whole chapter of Matthew 24, and in particular verses 39 to 44.  Explain your understanding.

 

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 11 Feb 2017 7:10:39 AM Close

Hello Jude,

When I say he did not preach CS and ES proponents. I meant, what we believers classify on what salvation is. He did not give different notions to it as we do.

I would only highlight one verse in that chapter to close this topic. 

Mathew 24:31: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is established in many other portions in the NT. Which of course as a reader, you would know.  

Therefore if you believe in the Almighty grace of God. You are not there in the tribulation. Any thought otherwise, is subjecting God's plan for us, into some sort of limitation.

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 17 Feb 2017 8:57:08 AM Close

Dear Joe,

What I believe about salvation is right for me and so I ascertain that it is His notion.  I cannot and will not deny what is said in Matthew 24:31 and my point here is, ‘His elect’ mentioned in the verse are those who would endure unto the end (verse 13). If enduring unto the end is not what we have to maintain on our part, warning we read in verses 4 and 42 is futile. The evil servant we read verse 48 is not a non believer and how he will end up is said in the last verse.

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 17 Feb 2017 12:36:05 PM Close

Hello Jude,

I only took a look at this site today and caught your comment. 

First, what would define as the very end? Do you expect to be caught up to the Lord as stated in 1 Corinthians 15: 51-54 and I Thessalonians 4:15-17?

Or do you tend to stay on earth till the 'final judgement' happens?

My belief is that for every believer the end is when they are with the Lord, captured to him in the clouds. After that, judgement comes. If you would look at the scriptures and revelations. That is what the sequence of events foretells. Thus, the wicked is not a believer in Mathew 24:48-51. A non-believer has no right or place in the kingdom of God. But a believer, he/she has been given the keys to the kingdom and room prepared by the Father himself. 

My salvation was never compromised nor would I be there at the time of judgement. If that is the notion, there is no point of spreading the gospel or believing/hearing him now. You can do it like some people do, on your deathbed. Why not frolic in the luxuries of life? and keep it for the end. So, let us agree to disagree here.

Regards,

Joe

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 21 Feb 2017 9:25:29 AM Close

Dear Joe,

Agreeing to disagree is now your stance and it means that you want to close the discussion and so I am not posting my critical answer to your latest post. By your position to agree to disagree, now I think that it won’t be bothering to you, if believers differ from each other in their knowledge of salvation.

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 21 Feb 2017 12:47:57 PM Close

Hello Jude,

By agreeing to disagree, it does not mean that you should not stop putting your views. Even Barnabas and Saul had different views on certain things. It is not necessary that one should agree on everything. Or one should post their thoughts. Provided they are not ramblings like some of the earlier writers used to put up to keep themselves happy.

If the argument is for/on the conditional security of salvation. It will be refuted based on the foundation, Christ has set through his death and resurrection. This would be established through the scriptures as well. Our salvation is assured and we will go up.  'What you believe is salvation is right for you' should be merited by what the word of God says. 

I will wait for your critical answer.

Regards,

Joe

P.S. again, today was another day of a casual glance :).a

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Reply by : ichabod   View Profile   Since : 11 Mar 2017 7:15:24 AM Close

This is something that God says In context to the Tribulaton times

Revelation 3:10King James Version (KJV)

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

So if you have KEPT THE WORD of His PATIENCE, He has assured to keep us out of those horrible days...

Need any more reassurance??????

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Reply by : beracah   View Profile   Since : 15 Mar 2017 4:29:30 AM Close

Certainly, I repeat, certainly, there will be believers, who cry out in a loud voice “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” in Tribulation.

Revelation 7: 9-14

Quote: 9After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:

“Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!”

13Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. End quote.

The multitude described in the above passage comes from great tribulation. They are believers. So, there will be believers in great Tribulation.

Thanks - PTV

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 19 Mar 2017 10:05:37 AM Close

Hello,

So this discounts the merit of believers believing in the Lord now? But the throne of heaven is not on earth but in heaven. 

As per PTV. Then the understanding is that He will leave behind believers to suffer 'tribulation'. Apostle Paul wasted time telling people to run the good race. Or that we will change in the twinkling of the eye or that we will get caught up. Because believers will endure tribulation (end times) no matter how hard you strive for the Lord. Then the question is why waste time now? Let's do all the believing in the tribulation. Since we will get caught up then as well. 

You should see the fallacy in this logic or reasoning. Because you are making the work of salvation for believers discriminatory. God didn't discriminate between the workman who came at an early hour or the late hour. Then how are we to judge on believers will being left behind? 

The most interesting thing which people do not realise is that the word 'rapture' is nowhere in the scripture. And that tribulation has been used to denote troubled times. The troubled times started the day man sinned. And it got aggravated hundredfold after the Lord went up to heaven after His resurrection.  We are currently living in troubled times. Lets not add or subtract to what the Lord has said. Or interpret as per our convenience.

'Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.'  - I Cor 8:1

Regards,

Joe

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Reply by : kristianjude   View Profile   Since : 19 Mar 2017 4:46:18 PM Close

It is nice if Joe explains what he has understood in reading Revelation 7:9-14 cited by Mr. PTV

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 20 Mar 2017 12:09:39 AM Close

Hello. I fail to see how one line in the first paragraph and third does not explain what I believe in the revelation context. 

I don't agree with people who tried to divide believers into pretribulation and post tribulation categories. If it was the case the second paragraph holds true. why waste time now? 

I will provide an added explanation if need be based on the scriptures if the one who asked for it presents what he wants to say. Otherwise, it is not a discussion, but a session where one appears to only talks. Like some of the members earlier in the forum and then lead it into name calling and other profanities.

Regards,

Joe

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Reply by : beracah   View Profile   Since : 20 Mar 2017 5:40:13 AM Close

In the Book of Revelation (Ch 7) one of the Elders asked John

“These in white robes—who are they, and

where did they come from?”

John answered, “Sir, you know.”

The Elder said,

“These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb”

These are not the word or ideas or talk or opinion of me – PTV. Bible says this. People are free to believe it, disbelieve it, question it, doubt it, add to it or subtract from it. It is their choice.

But, see the below passage also from Book of Revelation.

Reve 22:18-21

Quote: I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll:

If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.

19And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

20He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”

Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.End Quote.

Again, the above is not my words –words of PTV

If the Bible is not in agreement with popular logic or other attractive propositions, change it – I mean the logic and propositions Not the Bible.

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Reply by : beracah   View Profile   Since : 20 Mar 2017 6:25:07 AM Close

Forum:

If I have to believe that believers won’t be in Great Tribulation, the passage in Rev 7:9-14 must be cancelled and removed from Bible.

Again I repeat:

What I quoted is from the Bible and not my own ideas. I don’t have to accept any blame for the Bible saying what it says. I am not answerable to anyone for the words of the Elder in Rev 7 or Apostle John, the Writer of the Book of Revelation.

Thanks - PTV

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 21 Mar 2017 12:05:21 AM Close

Hello.

Do believers have to endure a special 'tribulation' so that their worth is known to the Lord? Explain me this: Why does Christ say that he will gather his elect from 'heaven' in Mathew? And then when we touch the topic in Revelation, where is this happening? Where is the throne of God? Is it not true that very believer who has confessed and declared about the Lord Jesus Christ is washed in the blood of the Lamb? Is there a discrimination between them and us? or now when everyone contemplates this thought, should there be discrimination in the sight of the Lord with regards to His salvation?

I state again: The most interesting thing which people do not realise is that the word 'rapture' is nowhere in the scripture. And that tribulation has been used to denote troubled times. The troubled times started the day man sinned. And it got aggravated hundredfold after the Lord went up to heaven after His resurrection.  We are currently living in troubled times. Let's not add or subtract to what the Lord has said. Or interpret as per our convenience.

To assume that any believer will be left on the day as mentioned in Revelation is an interpretation of the flesh. It also reduces the worth of His grace and salvation. And as stated in 'remove from the bible', then whatever Apostle Paul has written should also be discounted or negated. Then we are basing everything on probability, 'maybe I will be taken up, maybe I will not'.  In that, there is no security of salvation or of our redemption. That is a dangerous interpretation. 

At the end, we all choose what to believe, what we want to believe. But it needs to be based on what the scripture says.

Regards,

Joe

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Reply by : beracah   View Profile   Since : 21 Mar 2017 3:28:19 AM Close

Reply by : paizanjoe      Since : 21 Mar 2017 00:05:21

Quote: “To assume that any believer will be left on the day as mentioned in Revelation is an interpretation of the flesh.”End quote

When something is mentioned in Bible, in Revelation or elsewhere, it is part of Scripture. What is in Scripture is not an assumption; and what is it: – It is revelation from God; that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 7 states of them who have come out of the great tribulation...whatever is contrary to that statement is “assumption” and interpretation of flesh. That’s it; and I agree. Do we need to say anything more?...

Thanks - PTV

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 22 Mar 2017 11:31:20 AM Close

Before I explain

Let me ask two questions.

  1. What do you understand by 'out of great tribulation'.  
  2. Do you believe God shows favouritism by taking one set of believers and leaving the rest to face whatever you have understood by tribulation? 

Once you answer these I may or may not ask a few more questions based on your answers. But I will only ask those questions based on a scriptural backing. Maybe then you will see why I said 'interpretation of the flesh'. 

Regards,

Joe

 

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Reply by : beracah   View Profile   Since : 23 Mar 2017 4:06:41 AM Close

My understanding or misunderstanding, for that matter anybody’s understanding, would not CREATE God’s Revelation. God’s plans and purposes for future; and especially for His people; would not be affected or altered by mistaken notions of humans.

I didn’t interpret or introduce anything of my own; but just quoted from Revelation 7. Therefore, I am not getting into a question and answer session.

But, well, I am aware of the different Eschatological positions taken by Bible Christians regarding End Times and Millennium.

Dear Joe, you may or may not explain – that’s your right and choice.

Deal with what is in the Bible and not what is in my answer. What I wrote is not my copyrighted private stuff; it is there in the Bible; and if what I quoted is NOT in the Bible, please deal with it.

Thanks - PTV

 

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 23 Mar 2017 5:10:36 AM Close

I am surprised at that statement. You quote from the scripture but you do not wish to explain why you hold on to what you stated. That's of course not a revelation from God. 

When you quoted Revelation 7, did you read the other chapters before and after it? or just took it in isolation and write - 'that is what it is'? I never mentioned anything regarding  "Eschatological positions taken by Bible Christians regarding End Times and Millennium." Quite honestly I am not concerned nor do I really care about who or what they are.

I asked two simple questions. very relevant questions. Because you have quoted Rev 7. And said: Believers will be there in tribulation. You did not explain what you understood by what this tribulation meant. Or why believers should be there? 

Now in the spirit of quoting verses like you have. Here is one:

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

If you hold by what you have written then this part of God's promise does not hold true. Here Apostle Paul talks of all believers, not some. 

God will judge the wicked and sentence them to eternal hell (Matt. 3:12; 25:41, 46; John 3:36; 5:29; Acts 24:25; Rom. 2:5, 8; 2 Thess. 1:9; Heb. 6:2; 2 Peter 2:9; 3:7; Rev. 14:9–11). The other blessed truth for believers is that God has not destined us for wrath (John 1:10; John 3:18, 36; 5:24; Rom. 5:1, 9; 8:1, 33–34).  

There are other portions that I can go into. But then again it all depends on what the understanding of the tribulation is. As stated again: The most interesting thing which people do not realise is that the word 'rapture' is nowhere in the scripture. And that tribulation has been used to denote troubled times. The troubled times started the day man sinned. And it got aggravated hundredfold after the Lord went up to heaven after His resurrection. All the apostles talk about it in all the epistles constantly. We are already being refined for the kingdom. I do not know why someone will assume that tribulation he talks about would be any different. After all, it is stated: He knows. What would then, that mean?

So when you say you did not interpret. Then it is false. Cause at the end of your initial post you wrote: The multitude described in the above passage comes from great tribulation. They are believers. So, there will be believers in great Tribulation.  This is an interpretation or an explanation of what you are understanding is.

In any case. you are free to believe what you want to believe. May God give us all His wisdom

Regards,

Joe

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Reply by : beracah   View Profile   Since : 23 Mar 2017 6:32:41 AM Close

Deal with what is in the Scripture. I am not concerned about what is not in the Scripture.

I don’t know why and how 1 Thessalonians 4 and Revelation 7 could not be valid and  true as written in the Bible concerning the people about whom it is written?!.  

This is my observation – people try to fit in Scripture into the frame work they have made. It is their framework and they classify and assign portions as they prefer. I have no obligation to accept such classifications.

To those who find what I quoted incompatible with their understanding, let me ask what the Elder asked John in Rev 7:13

“These in white robes—

who are they, and

where did they come from?”

Thanks - PTV

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Reply by : paizanjoe   View Profile   Since : 23 Mar 2017 11:25:03 AM Close

Am I missing out on something or is there some issue in understanding?

  1. Where is anything apart from the scripture been quoted here?
  2. You do not 'know why and how now'? That is what I tried to reason. If you say that as per your interpretation in the end times if believers are there on earth. Then 1 Thess 4 and what Ap Paul said does not hold true.  There is no framework or allocation here. Only understanding what Ap. John meant by the tribulation. If the interpretation is that tribulation 'is the wrath of God' and believers are left behind to endure it. Then everything written and hoped for the Lord is amiss in the epistles. If it is about what tribulation that the believer endures during his/her life on earth, then the promise of hope and salvation holds true. They (we) are ALSO washed in the blood of the Lamb. Unless we are washed in His blood and partake in Him, we are not His. But he is faithful to redeem and save us before the dark days.
  3. When the elder asks that question, Ap John knows that the elder knows. Ap. John also in all humility knows who they are. If he did not. Then it is like saying that the man who wrestled with Jacob did not know who Jacob was. The Lord knows who is His. 

I think we need to go ahead of Rev 7 to the other chapters to understand the deeper things rather than pinpoint on one matter and state that it is what it is. In any case, there is no compulsion at any point to accept any viewpoint. One should test, understand and see what one feel is right in the spirit. May God enlighten all. And I rest my case on this topic.

Regards,

Joe

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