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Keralabrethren.net: Youth Forum: Youth Emotional/Physical Problems

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# 00088 :  Youth Emotional/Physical Problems
Hello guys I am taking about a real youth's problem(yes, christian youth also) I dont know how people will view this problem and whether it will be discussed or not. But it needs clarity and solution. Especially in young age (age 14 to until he marries), ones emotional and physical condition is so special. when it comes to sexual desires it is really true. I would like to talk about the habit of MASTERBATION which a majority of youth people are addicted (many many youth believers also) and it is an unspoken problem but need to be resolved biblically. I discussed with many christians and heared different views. many who do this,justifying this act,saying it is ok, a natural act to control the desires of body and nothing sinful, no direct biblical verse against this etc. but many have a bad conscience due to this. can someone give a biblical solution ? Is it a sinful and unnatural act? or a normal one? Is it ok for a believer to do or continue in this (with any excuse)? When the body is demanding this, how to solve it? Is it a good way to control the passion without sinning? how to manage one's body and mind against this? please advise and guide the youth biblically... (believe it or not it is a youth's unspoken problem. let us be realistic and share to find a solution..)
Post by : thomasj  View Profile    since : 17 Sep 2005


Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 17 Sep 2005 2:42:31 PM Close
Dear 'thomasj':

Thankyou for asking a question on this matter, which important, but yet unclear to many. The problem of self-gratification is real to most Christian young people, and those who do not have much problem with this issue are rare. This is clearly a FLESH problem, and we must turn to the Scriptures to see what the Lord has to say about it. Given the nature of this topic, solemn participation in the discussion is advisible.


1. Matt 5:28, "But I say unto you, That whosoever LOOKETH on a woman to LUST after her hath COMMITTED ADULTERY with her ALREADY in his heart." One does not have to look on a woman in person. A picture in a magazine, or a newspaper is sufficient to fit the case in Mat 5:28. It is common that people "imagine" (a.k.a, fantasize) during self gratification. Now we should ask this question. Suppose what I imagined really happened, is it sin? If yes, then such imagination itself is sin. And so is the self-gratificating act done to fulfill those imaginations.

2. “For God hath not called us unto UNCLEANNESS, but unto HOLINESS” (1 Thess 4:7). Scripture speaks about “uncleanness.” Please read Lev 15:16-17, and Deut 23:10 that refer to “uncleanness” that have some relevance to our topic. That is of course in the law. The Scripture says, “Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, UNCLEANNESS, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry” (Col 3:5). Notice that “uncleanness” here is NOT “fornication” or “inordinate affection” (homosexual sin), because it is mentioned as different from the rest. “And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the UNCLEANNESS and FORNICATION and LASCIVIOUSNESS which they have committed” (2Co 12:21). Here “uncleanness” is different from fornication and lasciviousness. Some times, the term “lasciviousness” also covers self-gratification.

cont'd...

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 17 Sep 2005 2:43:04 PM Close
While all these terms overlap in their meaning, and used synonymously some times, yet they refer to different things when these words are mentioned together. But please note that “Marriage is HONOURABLE in all, and the bed UNDEFILED” (Heb 13:4). There is no UNCLEANNESS in a married relationship.

3. “Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth AGAINST HIS OWN BODY. What? know ye not that YOUR BODY IS THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY GHOST which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?” (1 Cor 6:18-19). This is one reason why self-gratification must be avoided. “For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For THIS IS THE WILL OF GOD, even your SANCTIFICATION, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know HOW TO POSSESS HIS VESSEL in sanctification and HONOUR” (1 Thess 4:2-4). Self-gratification is not sanctification, nor HONOUR. But “Marriage is HONOURABLE in all” (Heb 13:4).

4. “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your BODIES a living sacrifice, HOLY, acceptable unto God, which is your REASONABLE SERVICE” (Rom 12:1). Paul is asking us to present our BODIES as a living sacrifice to God. They should be HOLY for His service.

Dear young people. I know that many will think these are not practical. Some might think that an old Brethren “uncle” is writing all this dogmatic and legalistic stuff. But I am not writing this as a man unaware of the real issues and problems. I am 33 now, and married for 7 years, so please understand that I can relate to these issues. The Bible says, “But if they CANNOT CONTAIN, let them marry: for it is BETTER TO MARRY THAN TO BURN” (1Cor 7:9). Paul does not give “self-gratification” advice.

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 17 Sep 2005 2:44:02 PM Close
How to overcome?

Please understand that the issues of temptation are there for every one. Whether they be sexual in nature or otherwise. If young people have one kind of a problem, the older have different problems. All need to mortify the deeds of the flesh.

Now the born-again believers have two natures. One sin nature (law of sin and death), two new nature is the “law of the Spirit of life” (Rom 8:2). Please read Romans 7 and 8. That is a description of a believer, and an unbeliever. “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye THROUGH THE SPIRIT DO MORTIFY THE DEEDS OF THE BODY, ye shall live” (Rom 8:13). The Holy Spirit helps us to mortifiy (means, kill) the deeds of the flesh. The new nature we have has that capacity. If and when we sin, it is because of the old sin nature which is there still in us. We will get rid of it at the Rapture. Talking about the new nature in the believers, John writes, “Whosoever is born of God doth not COMMIT sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and HE CANNOT SIN, because he is born of God” (1John 3:9). We are not taking about the sinlessness of a believer. See 1 John 1:8-10. But we are talking about the ability of the “new man” (Eph 4:24) in 1 John 3:9. He CANNOT sin. It’s the new man. Remember, when we are born-again, “that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” (John 3:6). It is not the flesh we are talking about. Flesh makes us commit sin.

cont'd..

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 17 Sep 2005 2:44:27 PM Close
Young people need to get busy. Get as busy as you can. Study your books, the Bible. Pray. Play sports, get tired, eat and go to bed. The you will not have an inch of time for the flesh to take over. As they say, an idle mind is devil’s workshop. As students, they must be faithful to the Lord in spending good time in studies. As believers, they must spent good time with the Lord and read the Bible, and pray. They should work hard to get good education, and good jobs to live and enjoy peaceable lives with their spouses in future. If you settle in life early, you marry early. Youth is a testing time. It’s like probation. Youth must specifically pray about victory over sins. Instead of trying to somehow justify self-gratification, if you will accept the truth of the Scriptures and say, Lord, I agree that it is wrong, please help me overcome, then God will surely help. The attitude matters here. We need to first acknowledge that there are certain things the Lord does not like in our lives. If we don’t accept it, we only end up justifying ourselves, and never overcome the problem.


Samson was a Nazarite, but he went to the vineyards, only to find a roaring lion (Devil is a roaring lion). Judges 14:5. You see, a Christian should not go near to the places of temptation. “FLEE fornication” is what the Scripture says. Remember how Joseph fled (Gen 39:12). You may say, that’s not the issue we are talking. Yes, but the principle applies. Don’t flip to that TV channel which will entice you, nor pick up that magazine which causes you trouble later. God will certainly honour absistence from self-gratification.

Lastly, let us remember that we all sin. “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And IF ANY MAN SIN, we have an ADVOCATE with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD” (1John 2:1-2). Amen!

Hope this helps.

God bless,

Moses LemuelRaj
www.AccordingToThyWord.net

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 17 Sep 2005 2:50:23 PM Close
Typo - "That is a description of a believer, and an unbeliever."

Correction - "That is a description of a believer, and NOT an unbeliever."

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Reply by : thomasj   View Profile   Since : 18 Sep 2005 2:26:41 AM Close
Dear lemuelraj

Thank you for your contribution to this subject which clarified a lot. i appreciate your approach and effort to this problem.

let me ask once again for a very specific answer,
i agree that it is for 'self gratification and a FLESH problem' and also lustful imagination and fantasy are involved in it.

So CAN WE CALL IT SIN (just like adultery)?

i want to emphasise its seriousness since it is considered as a normal inevitable act among youth.

Another case, if MARRIED MAN is doing this when his wife is away (eg.he is in gulf and wife in kerala whom he is imagining while doing this)Can we justify it?

(many who justifies this act says, need for sex is just like need for food or like any bodly need (which is so strong) and it has to be met in a 'advisable way',and nothing abnormal in that)

So shall we say Masterbation is a SIN AGAINST OUR OWN BODY..WHICH DESERVES PUNISHMENT.

In real life, IS IT POSSIBLE to abstain from this, from age 14 to the time of marriage?

Also just for clarification, if we dont gratify the sexual need of this 'organ' for years without sexually stimulating it,
will it affect its sexual efficency?

Let me share from practical life, if we abstain from this for few weeks, while sleeping,mostly through dream, the organ will 'overflow' during night.. What to do then? is that normal ? can the person be blamed when it happens like this? Do he need to have a bad consceince due to this?

I am telling this, because in my college days i really struggled a lot due to this REAL LIFE ISSUE and experieced both 'problem of doing' and 'problems of abstaining'i know many youth are going through the same situation now and there are not many to help them.

I know the 'abstinence' is what needed but i also want to go thorough vairous angles this 'hidden'problem.i am sure it will help many many youth since they are facing it in their day today life.

Please do contribute more and may the youth stay away from this, since it is SIN which will invite punishment.


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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 18 Sep 2005 7:21:30 AM Close
Dear thomasj,

Quote: "So CAN WE CALL IT SIN (just like adultery)?"

Yes it is sin. But real adulterous person must be punished with excommunication (1 Cor 5:11-13). This does not apply to the sin in question here.

Quote: "i want to emphasise its seriousness since it is considered as a normal inevitable act among youth."

Who considers inevitable? Scriptures? You see, the world has a lot of "normal" and "inevitable" things to do. Not for us. If it is INEVITABLE, why does then God tell you and me to "FLEE also YOUTHFUL LUSTS" (2 Tim 2:22)? Does n't He know it is INEVITABLE? It is not, brother. Any kind of sin CAN be overcome with the help of the Holy Spirit. Scripture is clear on this matter. But we need to first whole heartedly accept that the Lord indeed does not like it. Instead of searching for Scriptural, biological, and other justifications, if we agree what the Scripture says, then it will be possible to overcome each instance of tempation to sin. Otherwise, we will approach the problem with a justification in our mind. This is true for any kind of sin.

Quote: "Another case, if MARRIED MAN is doing this when his wife is away (eg.he is in gulf and wife in kerala whom he is imagining while doing this)Can we justify it?"

I will not ask why is he away from his wife, etc. Let the man ask it himself, after reading 1 Cor 7:5. "DEFRAUD YE NOT one the other (that is in fulfilling each other's conjugal duties), except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and COME TOGETHER AGAIN, that Satan TEMPT you not for your INCONTINENCY." Even seperation for a little while for "fasting and prayer" could be used by the devil to tempt. That's exactly what Paul says. Now the man you referred to must decide after reading this verse what he should do. The Lord will reveal His will definitely, if it is asked in faith (Rom 12:2).

cont'd...

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 18 Sep 2005 7:22:07 AM Close
Dear thomasj,

Quote: "(many who justifies this act says, need for sex is just like need for food or like any bodly need (which is so strong) and it has to be met in a 'advisable way',and nothing abnormal in that)"

Then why do it in secret. After all we eat food publickly. Imagine some one telling, I am going to the bathroom for such and such thing, after all it is a bodily need. Is n't it? It is a bodily need no doubt. But God has given us a means of fulfilling it. Any other means is unnatural.

Quote: "Let me share from practical life, if we abstain from this for few weeks, while sleeping,mostly through dream, the organ will 'overflow' during night.. What to do then? is that normal ? can the person be blamed when it happens like this? Do he need to have a bad consceince due to this?'

God knows this will happen. "If there be among you any man, that is not clean by reason of UNCLEANNNES THAT CHANCETH HIM BY NIGHT, then shall he go abroad out of the camp, he shall not come within the camp" (Deut 23:10). We don't have to go outside the camp. We are in grace period. A wash or a bath will solve the problem.

Hope this helps,

Moses

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Reply by : drsunnyezhumattoor   View Profile   Since : 18 Sep 2005 8:42:12 PM Close
Dear bro. ThomasJ,
To find answers for sexual issues,divorce,second marriage, and various issues,please login www.thekkel.com . The title is "marriage and Morality in the Third Millennium". God Bless
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Reply by : Philip1   View Profile   Since : 18 Sep 2005 11:18:23 PM Close
Masterbation is a very common problem among the youth. This is something that they could talk with senior brother in Christ. This is something that need to be dealth with individually.
Scripture is not clear on this issue. The reason I am being very direct here is, There are so many of our young people are burning with this thought. I request elder brothers and sisters become approachable in dealing with these issues in a very sensitive way that they are not living in guilt.
There are young woman and men thinks they cannot even have a married life because they have this issue in their life. There are young men and women who are married is having problems in their married life due to the fatalistic understanding of sex. Sex is natural part of life and it is ok to talk about it in appropriate circumstances. If any young people is suffering from these kind of issues, give them an avenue for self expression. Let some leaders may give these young people the chance to talk about it.
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Reply by : Philip1   View Profile   Since : 18 Sep 2005 11:20:28 PM Close
Statistic states that about 9/10 youmg men and 6/10 young woman are involved with this issue. That include believers and non believers.
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Reply by : thomasj   View Profile   Since : 19 Sep 2005 8:37:38 AM Close
Dear Lemuelraj,drsunnyezhumattoor, philip1

Thanks for your contributions

As you all know it is a major hidden unspoken problem among christian youth, i believe it has to be discussed and solved very specifically.

almost all people have gone /going through this stage and knows how it affects our spritual life.

As lemuelraj said, i personally experieced great liberty from this sin by seeking God constently, during my college days. so i myself can encougrage those who are addicted and justify this by saying 'its a part of youth life or unavoidable body need etc.' that it is possible to OVERCOME if we have a real need before God.

If we personally speak to youth, we can find that even though most of them are seems 'spiritually ok with good outward testimony', in their hidden life they are falling in this sin and continuing.

i personally spoke to many of my christian friends and realised that this SIN is not identifiable outwardly unless we speak to them very personally and specifically about this.

My intention of this discussion is to make it clear and specific to all youth, that MASTERBATION IS SIN and A BELIEVER SHOULD FLEE FROM IT since our body belongs to GOD.

i welcome more contributions from brothers to support this purpose (also youngsters, if any, who are suffering due to this who needs clarity/help since no one speak about it publically in any meeting)

Unless we call it SIN, we cannot avoid , flee and repent of it.

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Reply by : joyboy   View Profile   Since : 19 Sep 2005 10:26:37 PM Close
Simple fact is that masturbation is a sin because it cannot be done without lusting. Therefore, for an unmarried person, masturbation is wrong, since any lust is the equivalent of adultery.

But your question above--masturbation when separated from your spouse? What is the answer? Is it sin if you lust after your spouse? I don't believe it is. What do you think?

However, I cannot say with any authority, for I have never been separated from my spouse for that long a time.

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Reply by : thomasj   View Profile   Since : 20 Sep 2005 9:12:35 AM Close
joyboy

As we all agree, Masterbation is a sin.

But for this special case i.e.when a married person is staying away from wife for long time due to his nature of job etc., CAN JUSTIFY THIS if he is imagining his wife while doing.

(practically, for a married person, is it possible to completely stay away without yeilding to the sexual stimulation of the body for 1 or 2 years????)

In that case can we say,
the SINFULNESS OF MASTERBATION DEPENDS ON THE 'TYPE OF FANTASY/IMAGINATION' AND NOT ON THE ACT.

i also dont have a clear answer for this situation, (i could'nt convince those who said this reason when i discussed with many of my cobelievers who are working in Gulf with this situation, because lusting/dreaming about one's own wife cannot be considered a sin).

so here the question comes is, when something is sinful for a unmarried person, can the same be nonsinful for the married person because of special reason??.

Anyway it is something which a believer should abstain,no doubt.
but if someone due to above situation/reason, does this, IS THAT A SIN FOR HIM?

Hope someone can give better clarification.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 20 Sep 2005 7:04:41 PM Close
If sex is naturally, it is ok. It is not a sin. You cannot break the law of nature.

In christ,

Sunila.

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Reply by : thomasj   View Profile   Since : 21 Sep 2005 12:35:21 AM Close
Dear sunilajoseph

I think your above post is a very general and vague one, and it doesnot contributes to solve the problem.

here we are discussing about a common habbit among youth.i.e.the 'self gratification of sex(through Masterbation)

in relation to Two cases

1- in bachelor life
2-married person staying away from spouse

and the sinful part of it from a christian point of view.

Welcoming your specific answers.

Thanks

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 21 Sep 2005 7:24:56 AM Close
thomasj,

You cannot touch, talk, look or see (think) worldly way about somebody unless it is not spouse. It is a sin.

Romans :6:17-23. "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Read Titus 3:3-8 and Roman:1:20-32

I think, this will help,
In Christ,
Sunila.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 21 Sep 2005 7:30:43 AM Close
I have a correction to make:
------------------------------------
Quote:You cannot touch, talk, look or see (think) worldly way about somebody unless it is not spouse. It is a sin.
------------

Correction: You cannot touch, talk, look or see (i mean think) in a worldly way to somebody if it is not your spouse. IT IS SIN. Or in other words you can do that to your spouse.

Sunila.

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Reply by : jbdubai   View Profile   Since : 21 Sep 2005 8:48:31 AM Close
Dear Thomasj

I really appreciate you in bringing this subject for discussion.
As you said it is a hidden unspoken subject, a majority are doing this or even addicted but they wont speak about it and there is no place to discuss about it to solve.

Not only theological subjects, but this kind of practical subjects which affects the inner life also to be discussed.
but unfortunately among us, there are many who thinks we should not discuss this or it is shameful to discuss. such attitudes will not solve this problem.

As i am also in Gulf(with my family) I can imagine the intensity of this problem for those who live without their wife for many months in Gulf (or any place)

As you said, no doubt it is a strong temptation which only a 'radical believer can overcome, not a nominal one'

Let me tell my opinion-----

for a Married person who is in the above situation, this act is excusable provided his fantasy is about his wife and if he is not addicted to this act.

for a bachelor, it is not at all justifiable and it is a clear sin against his own body.

if you ask me, what shall a young man do from his age 14 to 25 when his body demands this, i will say, realise that it is SIN and seek God earnestly to abstain from this.

it is possible only if he cry with desperate need to overcome, and not possible with one's WILL POWER or self control.

I really believe that it is a hidden habbit (which many are falling/continuing) which can affect our conscience and relationship with God, so everyone should have clarity on this.

Hope more believers will join & contribute and thereby we can have more clarity on this subject.

jbdubai

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Reply by : jeevan   View Profile   Since : 21 Sep 2005 9:04:54 AM Close
Bro. Thomasj has done a great service to all believers by bringing this subject for discussion.

However, afer reading all the comments which followed, I am more confused as to what is right.

Does it really mean that it would not be sinful if a person fantasises about his wife and masturbates? Now, let's reverse the roles. How about a wife who gratifies herself thinking about her husband? I think this discussion had come a few months back in teh Sister's Forum.

I sincerely request eminent persons like Bro. JCP to get involved in the discussion.

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Reply by : jbdubai   View Profile   Since : 24 Sep 2005 8:18:47 AM Close
Dear Jeevan

further to your above post, it is true that most of us need more clarification on this subject.

what i said is my conviction, let me repeat- "for a Married person who is in the above situation, this act is excusable provided his fantasy is about his wife and if he is not addicted to this act".

How can we say "someone lusted his own wife!!" he has all right to dream about her and only about her. If he gratifies his sexual emotions by this way, how we can say he sinned???
same applied to the wife who is in this condition.

But 'occassional happenings/falling' and 'addiction' has to be viewed seperately. when someone is addicted..something is wrong.

When an unmarried person is doing this, it is clear that he is lusting after some girl and that lust is equal to adultery. so IT IS A SIN for him.

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Reply by : wilson609   View Profile   Since : 25 Sep 2005 8:35:19 AM Close
greetings to everyone there,
according to my understanding of the scriptures,which are already quoted by our brother lemuel raj,self gratification wheather its by unmarried or married people, its sinful and the solution to the problem is to divert ones mind to other useful activities, and use that energy for constructive activities.parents have a responsibility to understand the needs of their children and arrange to get their children married in time, so that the agony of the children is not prolonged.children as our bro suggested should strive to complete their studies and get settled in employment so that they can support a family
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Reply by : davidchase   View Profile   Since : 27 Sep 2005 11:12:36 PM Close
Dear all,
I appreciate the fact that this topic is being discussed. Masturbation by definition is stimulating the responsive parts of the genitalia for producing a pleasurable sensation. This starts at a very young age, even in small children, before they even know the consequences of their actions. That,s where the instinct principle ends, because animals do not masturbate. The whole point of the discussion so far has been the action of doing the same with the purpose of causing an orgasm, which in the male results in ejaculation or emission of the semen. The orgasm itself is nothing but contractions of muscles involuntarily.
There are some misconceptions regarding the need for sex - actually an excuse for persons participating in that act to do that more frequently or differently. While as individuals, each one of us has sexual drive, it is not like hunger or thirst which have to be satiated for survival. There is no scientific evidence to say that depriving the body of sex will have any effects on the body - in other words abstinence does not physically harm in any way. The body in the male has a way of expelling formed semen from the body, during sleep, once it is accumulated enough. Some people believe that if they donot get rid of the semen periodically, they will fall sick/lose weight/lose sexual function. There are also others who believe that if one has an emission of semen during sleep, they will fall ill which is also false in its entireity. God has wonderfully made the body - it can take care of itself and needs no help from us in this regard.
The sexual drive / appetite depends on a lot of factors and the most significant one is the amount of input the brain recieves in the form of sensory stimuli through sight, touch, smell etc., - which sets off thought processes and consciously as well as unconsciously drives our actions. Even if there were no input, humans are able to concieve all kinds of ways by which this whole process is kept up continuously, through the imaginations.
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Reply by : davidchase   View Profile   Since : 27 Sep 2005 11:43:07 PM Close
contd.,
I saw a caption - YOU ARE WHAT YOU EAT! Depending on what we feed our brains, it will steer our actions. While acknowledging the good that God intended and incorporated in our bodies, it is of paramount importance to the christian to continuously honour God in the body, for it is impossible to please God without leading holy lives. If the scriptures have not mentioned anything about masturbation, that doesn't make it right. It is for the individual to pray over every matter and see whether it is of a good report, and whether it pertains to virtue, not that it earns us points in righteousness, but because it makes us diligent to pursue Godliness. When we use our faculties for more profitable and progressive matters, the desire and need for these surrogates will diminish. When we meditate more on the word of God and spend more time in Godly fellowship with other believers, other things will become less able to control our lives. To the uninitated and inexperienced, I would say that the pleasure in intimacy with the one the Lord has chosen for us as our spouse would far outweigh any other form of pleasure, especially if it is built on a platform of love, faithfulness and responsibility.
All these surrogates as I call them, tend to lose their attraction with time and one would find that whatever gave intense pleasure at one point in time, loses its effect with use and more and more one has to resort to pornography, deviant behaviour, bestiality, homosexuality, and whatever new things the current culture draws up from its schemes, to get the same so-called thrill out. It just is one of the ways satan can ensnare us with. Alcohol, drugs and the like work the same way too!
gretings of love in Christ
David Chase
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Reply by : thomasj   View Profile   Since : 28 Sep 2005 3:08:39 AM Close
Dear David Chase

I appreciate your contribution to this subject.

So you meant to say IT IS SINFUL FOR A AN UNMARRIED PERSON
and also for a MARRIED PERSON even if he is in the special situation which i mentioned in my earlier post. Am i right?

we understood that it is not a good practice for a believer, but in that special situation,
IS IT SINFUL FOR A MARRIED PERSON?
CAN HIS ACTION BE JUSTIFIED?
IS IT AN ACTION WHICH INVITE PUNISHMENT FROM GOD?

would you please be specific to this 'case' and clarify?


Thanks

Thomasj

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Reply by : davidchase   View Profile   Since : 28 Sep 2005 11:00:47 PM Close
Dear all,
For some reason I couldnot log-on all morning. Anyway I would like to raise another issue before answering the specific question.
Can we imagine a similar situation where (it is possible in these days) a wife, being away from the husband, wishing to satisfy her needs, fantasizes that she is actually have an intimate time with her husband and uses a vibrator to stimulate herself to an orgasm. Will that be sin? I will appreciate input on these matters.
christian regards
david chase
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Reply by : davidchase   View Profile   Since : 28 Sep 2005 11:52:28 PM Close
Dear Thomasj,
While I cannot quote scripture to say that masturbation is sin, I still will be able to fall back on God's word which I use to guide me in such situations.
A tree is known by its fruit.
If my actions are not inspired,driven,sustained by the Holy Spirit of God to help me fulfil the Lord's will in my life, then those actions are of the flesh.
I have freedom to do all things in Christ Jesus but all things edify not.
I am asked to redeem the time since the coming of the Lord is soon.
I am required to walk in the "newness of life".
Am I likely to please God or grieve the Holy Spirit of God if I were to masturbate? Will I be putting on the 'new man' or will I be pandering to the desires of my flesh?
I have to leave it to the individual to ascertain to oneself on these issues, but for myself I consider it sin if I were to be partaking in things such as this. It is not for me to judge others either, but to the persons in mmy area of influence, like my children, friends etc., I would advise them not to get trapped in such things.
One would not have to be ashamed if others come to know that he or she is having sex with his or her own spouse, though one would be considerably embarassed about the whole thing. On the other hand, even an unbeliever would be very ashamed if he were caught masturbating.
Masturbation has consequences, not to mention the guilt, preoccupation with unprofitable matters so as to make one an underperformer, be it in matters of study or work and any other responsibility. Thanks for allowing me to air my views.
I am open to criticism.
christian regards
david chase
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Reply by : thomasj   View Profile   Since : 2 Oct 2005 1:44:45 AM Close
Dear David

thanks for your opinions which are verymuch helpful for a believer to have clarity on the subject. I appreciate your godly attitudes and convictions.

I am personally so sure that Masterbation or any kind of self sexual gratification will not help spiritually. but when i discussed with few young men (in our assembly youth forum) who are away from their wife, who do this, i couldnt convince them. thats why i asked everyones help.

From my experience itself i can say that, if we seek God earnestly, we can have victory over this act.

your question About wife using Vibrator etc. i can just say my opinion as, it is an abnormal and extreame act of selfgratification and can not be justifiable for a believer.

As you said, holyspirit can convince all who have an ear to listen.

Whether masterbation or usage of vibrator, whether it is a Clear Sin or not, it can not help the inner man and only causes damage to one's conscience and spiritual life.

if we imagine like, jesus is standing next to us or living in our house, no believer will not dare to do this at any excuse. so let us remember that He is always watching us and our body belongs to him.

thanks for your guidence, God bless
with christian love

Thomasj

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Reply by : thomasj   View Profile   Since : 2 Oct 2005 1:58:57 AM Close
CORRECTION ..

if we imagine like, jesus is standing next to us or living in our house, NO BELIEVER WILL DARE TO DO THIS WITH ANY EXCUSE(NOBODY WILL EVEN TRY OR THINK OF DOING LIKE THIS). so let us remember that He is always watching us, his presence is always with us and our body belongs to him.

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Reply by : oso2005   View Profile   Since : 7 Dec 2005 4:33:47 AM Close
Greetings thomasj,

I do admit that masturbation is a sin. But ur last correction "if we imagine like, jesus is standing next to us or living in our house, NO BELIEVER WILL DARE TO DO THIS WITH ANY EXCUSE(NOBODY WILL EVEN TRY OR THINK OF DOING LIKE THIS)."

If I put it this way... Sex is a blessing from God to bond the relation between man and woman, but would a believer dare to have sex with his wife if u jesus is standing next to you.

Please let me know your views on this....

With anticipation

OSO..

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Reply by : oso2005   View Profile   Since : 9 Dec 2005 5:38:59 AM Close
I guess no one has an answer for my query...

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Reply by : joyboy   View Profile   Since : 13 Dec 2005 5:22:03 PM Close
oso, you make a good point to what br. Thomas has said.

We must always be careful when we proclaim that a certain behavior is ALWAYS wrong, unless we have clear scriptural backing.

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Reply by : thomasj   View Profile   Since : 14 Dec 2005 12:27:14 AM Close
Dear oso,

hope you know clearly the subject we are taking about. we can not view self sexual gratification methods and normal husband and wife sex relation in the same way.

as you said "Sex is a blessing from God to bond the relation between man and woman" but here we are discussing about masterbation and such things which is differnt from husban wife sexual relation. (husband wife sex relation is definetly God given one and such act is not bringing guilty conscience,God permits the partners to enjoy it).

many of the believers agreed that such self gratification is not good and helpful for a true christian's life. thats why i said let us think Jesus is watching /standing with us so that we can avoid such thing.

if you are considering self gratificatin and husband wife relation with same eye/standards, you will have more similar questions.

i dont have a specific verse to quote you like 'thou shall not indulge in self sexual gratification' but if we want to listen to holyspirit, it is so clear

regards

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Reply by : joyboy   View Profile   Since : 14 Dec 2005 5:13:12 PM Close
Self gratification is sin because it is lust. Lust is sin when it is directed at inappropriate objects or people. Directing lust at one's spouse is neither wrong, nor inappropriate.
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Reply by : oso2005   View Profile   Since : 15 Dec 2005 2:45:42 AM Close
Hi Br.Thomas,

I completely agree to your point that Self gratification is a sin and thats what we all agree about.

Husband - wife sexual relation cannot be seen in those terms and as you said "(husband wife sex relation is definetly God given one and such act is not bringing guilty conscience,God permits the partners to enjoy it)".. -- I completely agree to that also.

But you did not answer my question --would a believer dare to have sex with his wife if jesus is standing next to them.


[P.S- I am not a married person so I am not sure of how it is gonna be like :-) ]


Regards
OSO

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 15 Dec 2005 7:40:37 AM Close
Dear 'oso'

Why ask ridiculous questions when you know that God has instructed husband and wife to have physical relationship (Mat 19:5)?

Why will Jesus (it is the name of the MAN Christ Jesus) stand in such a place? God's presence is there every where in the universe. But the glorified Lord, the MAN Christ Jesus, in His glorified body is right now seated on the right hand of God. He is present with us in the Spirit when we gather together in His name, but PHYSICALLY, He is in heaven. Hope that makes things clear.

Moses

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 15 Dec 2005 8:45:22 AM Close
Dear 'oso,'

You are trying to establish a teaching by the use of rhetoric. It is not scriptural to do so. Remember that Lord Jesus Chriat has taken residence in all who are the children of God along with the Father and the Holy Spirit (John 14-16). The Holy spirit is always standing next to us (this is the meaning of 'parakletes,' translated as 'Comforter"- KJV). Therefore, the use of rhetoric to establish a teaching is not right. One must use scriptures. The use of rhetoric is also an indication that the person who initiates the rhetoric question has no answer to reply.

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : oso2005   View Profile   Since : 16 Dec 2005 7:27:24 AM Close
Hello Mr Moses...

The question I asked cannot be categorized as "ridiculous". First of all no one answered the my question.. Will u DO IT OR NOT.. Now I know that u cannot answer that or rather will refrain from answering that. Cos man hid from God's presence when he knew that he was naked and he covered himself and the same is applicable now also if Christ comes in person and stands before u!!

And one appeal to Br.Thomas...what Moses has said is what I want to tell you too..please don't use weird thoughts and ideas even if its just for the heck of posting or convincing others to think Christ Jesus the glorified Lord who is at the right hand of God to come and stand in your presence to what you doing a sin. Its more than enough to use scriptural references and that will be the last verdict cos its the word of GOD.

Chill..

OSO

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Reply by : thomasj   View Profile   Since : 17 Dec 2005 2:28:14 AM Close
Hi Oso,

I believe Moses’s reply on 15 Dec 2005 7:40:37 AM is enough for you (even though later you diverted it to me)
he quoted “Why ask ridiculous questions when you know that God has instructed ….+ God's presence is there every where in the universe…He is present with us in the Spirit..”

If you are just investigating on each word to argue, I don’t have time and interest for that.

the meaning of what I tolled is since God is watching us and his presence is always with us, let us keep this in mind when we are tempted to do self gratification so as to refrain from it.

Now straight to you question, ‘Will u DO IT OR NOT’- yes, couples can do & enjoy their sexual life and of course, God is seeing that, it is allowed by God.

But when we do self gratification, then also God is watching us and it is displeasing to God.

Your quote “Its more than enough to use scriptural references and that will be the last verdict cos its the word of GOD” – hope you know, there is no direct scriptural verses to quote, so it is always good to share what the spirit taught us. That’s how we learn from other believers for many practical issues when we find difficult to get direct answers from Bible.

Pls note i never tried to refrain from answering any genuine questions, but, cases where an answer is clear if we apply a little bit wisdom and common sense, I don’t think it need to be specifically addressed and explained in detail.

Regards,

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Reply by : oso2005   View Profile   Since : 18 Dec 2005 8:58:59 AM Close
Hello Thomasj....

The idea you put forward "if we imagine like, jesus is standing next to us or living in our house, NO BELIEVER WILL DARE TO DO THIS WITH ANY EXCUSE(NOBODY WILL EVEN TRY OR THINK OF DOING LIKE THIS)." is WRONG...
.. thats what Moses also had to say..

If you dont have a scriptural reference doesnt mean that you can use the name of JESUS in any way you want to convey the idea to others.

TBTILV

OSO

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Reply by : etoile   View Profile   Since : 17 Mar 2006 2:39:32 PM Close
if you have to even ask the question that it is a sin then the holy spirit must be telling you that its wrong, trust your conscience a.k.a. the holy spirit. He will guide you to the truth..
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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 17 Mar 2006 2:49:34 PM Close
'etoile,'

You wrote, "...trust your conscience a.k.a. the holy spirit. He will guide you to the truth."

Our conscience is not the Holy Spirit. All men/women have a consience. We see a reference to it in Romans 1. The Holy Spirit is God and He is with the saints to guide them into all truth (John 14 through 16).

Shalom malekim!!!

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Reply by : his_warrior   View Profile   Since : 25 Mar 2006 6:06:46 PM Close
hi to all bros in Christ.
I read many of those thoughts.
Finally it became very complicated.

1) Self gratification is sin.(Matthew5:24)(in bachelor or married life)

2)With spouse.....After marriage God wants a husband and wife together as ONE BODY.He knows the best about the needs of our body dats why he asked to be together.

And for some reason(job business)they are not together say husband in gulf ....n all its not His problem.You should be together (ONE BODY).The problem is created by ourselves and we r tryin to justify a wrong thing.

We should rather PRAY to overcome this strong temptation.

One more thing...when writing let us not forget WHO JESUS IS.


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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 25 Mar 2006 10:47:54 PM Close
While you go to sleep, sing your favorite christian songs in mind and pray or tell your stories to God in heaven. Or say the bible verses you remember. I say talk to him about you. This is a quite time with God. You fell in to sleep.

Some may say, if you have difficulty in sleeping, count 1-10 many times and that will let you sleep. I don't know how that works. But I know pray to God and singing songs will help. I do.

Sunila.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 26 Mar 2006 4:40:59 AM Close
From thomasj's quote: "I discussed with many christians and heared different views.
many who do this,justifying this act,saying it is ok, a natural act to control the desires of body and nothing sinful, no direct biblical verse against this etc."

It is not a natural act. It is the OUTCOME OF YOUR DAY TIME ACTIVITIES. Remember what did you do during day time. How did you look at others. What did you talk about. What did you see. What did you hear. Did somebody asked you why are you looking at me like that. Why are you saying that to me. Did you look at what you are not supposed look, see, talk and hear. We born-again children of God are not suppose to do certain things. We must be blind, deaf, and dead on worldly pleasures. We must learn to close our ears and eyes to the world.

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Reply by : etoile   View Profile   Since : 31 Mar 2006 11:15:17 PM Close
"george p. koshy"
i am saying that to a believer (not to the unsaved) that the Holy spirit(God)which is within us will lead us to the truth, forgive me for not using the right wording to make my point, i was meaning to say that the voice inside of us telling us what is right and wrong (the holy spirit) is like the coscience of an unbeliever and for us (believers) to listen to the voice of the holy spirit inside of us to lead us to the truth..again please forgive me, ive never been very good with words..
-your sister in christ
etoile
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Reply by : jinsonmc2004   View Profile   Since : 26 Apr 2006 12:21:14 AM Close
If a Person is adviced by a doctor that if he eat anything with salt in it, he will die or he will go blind at that instant.. will he ever eat it.. iam sure he will continue to live his life without salt but may be with unsalty food or fruits.WHY????? cos he is afraid of death or going BLIND...is the desire for self gratification greater than eating food with salt for life???.. so the important thing here is not the desire but the FEAR.. We know as a christian we should not do it.. cos bible does specify that these people will never go to heaven.. if they dont go to heaven , where else they will end up?? obv. HELL..so i think the whole reason for this desire is due to " NO FEAR OF GOD "..
Praise The Lord
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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 26 Apr 2006 6:27:40 AM Close
Hello 'jinsonmc2004':

Quote: "We know as a christian we should not do it.. cos bible does specify that these people will never go to heaven.. if they dont go to heaven , where else they will end up?? obv. HELL"

All "Christians" (Acts 11:26), will end up in HEAVEN, irrespective of what they do. No one can lose his/her salvation.

Moses LemuelRaj

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 26 Apr 2006 5:16:05 PM Close
1 Corinthians 6:9-11

Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, 10thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers, and swindlers--none of these will have a share in the Kingdom of God. 11There was a time when some of you were just like that, but now your sins have been washed away,[a] and you have been set apart for God. You have been made right with God because of what the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God have done for you.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 27 Apr 2006 7:24:20 AM Close
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (From Complete Jewish Bible).


Don't you know that unrighteous people will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't delude yourselves - people who engage in sex before marriage, who worship idols, who engage in sex after marriage with someone other than their spouse, who engage in active or passive homosexuality, who steel, who are greedy, who get drunk, who assail people with contemptuous language, who rob - none of them will not share in the Kingdom of God. Some of you used to do these things. But you have cleanaed yourselves, you have been set apart for God, you have come to be counted righteous through the power of the Lord Yeshua the Messiah and the Spirit of our God.

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 27 Apr 2006 7:28:49 AM Close
typo:

"you have cleanaed yourselves,"

correct:

you have CLEANSED yourselves,

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Reply by : jinsonmc2004   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2006 3:40:39 AM Close
hi Lemuel Raj,

So according to Scriptures , once a person accept jesus christ as his saviour, and how filthy his life is afterwards, he will be in heaven???

If so then what is the meaning of parable on people who was kept outside and door shut to them. When they asked to god " god we worked for ur name and preached ur name to this world, but then they hear a voice from inside that i dont know who your are..." hope u got which parable iam talking about..

could you pleae explain the meaning of this particular parable??

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Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 29 Apr 2006 6:35:26 AM Close
To all,

Hebrews 6:1-6

1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Hebrews 12:14-17

14Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears.


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Reply by : etoile   View Profile   Since : 30 Apr 2006 5:33:08 PM Close
my pastor was giving a sermon about sexual wholeness and purity, and he said that "we should feed what we want to live in us(goodness and purity)and starve what we want to die in us(sin and impurity)"
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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 1 May 2006 8:58:16 AM Close
Dear 'jinsonmc2004,'

On 29 Apr 2006 you wrote to Moses LemuelRaj, "If so then what is the meaning of parable on people who was kept outside and door shut to them. When they asked to god " god we worked for ur name and preached ur name to this world, but then they hear a voice from inside that i dont know who your are..." hope u got which parable iam talking about.."

For clarification, please tell us which parable you are talking about. The scriptural reference will do. It will be beneficial to all, especially me, if you could refrain from using code words in your postings. It could mean different thing to different people. Please use proper English words.

Shalom malekim!!!

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