KeralaBrethren.net
New User? Register Today!
Registered Users, LOGIN
What we believe (Eng) What we believe (Mal) About Us Contact Us
Forums Home General Forum Youth Forum Sisters Forum Archives (2005-2007) Archives (2001-2004)
Listing of Brides Listing of Grooms
Assemblies in Kerala Evangelists in India Instituitions in India
Christian Albums Christian Songs
Audio Sermons Bible Wallpapers Brethren Links KB History (Eng) KB History (Mal)

K E R A L A  B R E T H R E N
Youth Forum

Forums Home ::
This Message Forum is to discuss spiritual topics only. Please avoid personal or assembly matters.
Let us use this facility for our spiritual enrichment and for bringing glory to our Lord almighty.
Webmasters reserve the right to delete any topic or posting partly or completely from this forum.
View Topics :: :: Post new topic


Keralabrethren.net: Youth Forum: Other Tongue 2

Post Reply
Go to bottom of the page

# 00098 :  Other Tongue 2
Other Tongue This is in continuation of "Other tongue" posted by Bejoyaranmula and reply to Shared concept. Quote: "Tongues-speaking is a subject of widespread Christian interest. Pentecostals and charismatic (which include members of mainline Protestant, Greek Orthodox, and Roman Catholic congregations) practice speaking in tongues as an evidence of spiritual renewal and devotion. Yet, it's not just a Christian experience. Many in the occult and in Eastern Mysticism, both in and out of the New Age movement, also speak in tongues." In summary, the Bible doesn't recommend using tongues as a private prayer language. Besides, this practice, like all non-language tongues-speaking, can be dangerous. It may lead a person to take something that is nothing more than an exciting psychological phenomenon as a genuine miracle and token of God's approval. Like transcendental meditation, mystical rituals, and other mind-emptying procedures, it may open the door to demonic influences. It can promote a false idea that there is an easy road to a rich prayer life and spiritual maturity. It can promote a false sense of unity with people who hold widely diverse beliefs on the essentials. And worst of all, it can easily degenerate into a series of "vain repetitions," the very thing against which Jesus issued a solemn warning. These considerations should be taken seriously by all who are inclined to believe that a private prayer language is something to be desired."
Post by : sambudhanoor  View Profile    since : 23 Jan 2006


Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 23 Jan 2006 12:28:21 AM Close
Dear Sharedconcept

As you know very well Bro, MM Zacharia and he was a student of your grandfather is OK.
I am also a 3rd generation brethren believer, my grandparents had good contacts with Bro. KV Simon & team, who shared the Gospel with them in 1920, this is not our scope of discussion but the subject "Other Tongue".

I would like to know the following:
1. As your grandfather was the teacher of Kumbanad bible school, what was his belief and what he taught about "Other Tongue"?

2. As you gave a book to Bro. MM Zacharia about power of Holy Spirit, are you ever shared your experience about "Other tongue" with him and what was his response?

3. As you wrote, there is difference of opinion about Holy Spirit between MM Zacharia and JC Dev, I do not know what is the matter. I would like to know whether you shared to Bro. JC Dev about your experience about "Other tongue" and what was his response?

4. As you wrote, your parent assembly is existing of 100 family members, is that Brethren Assembly? If so, are you shared your experience about "Other tongue" with elders and what was their response?

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : tom2   View Profile   Since : 23 Jan 2006 5:44:15 AM Close
Dear all,
Several reasons why we don’t experience the tongues


There can be several reasons why we don’t speak in tongues. The most common reason is that you have received a few, strange words, that sound just like your neighbor’s. You think you’ve just made them up, and you are afraid of using them.

Or, it could be that you generally find speaking in tongues a little scary. Remember that God is a gentleman and he does not give you something you don’t want (there are exceptions, like when God met Paul, Acts 9). God has not given us a spirit of fear, we should not be afraid of Him. (2 Tim 1:7)


Another reason might be that you haven’t heard any teaching about it, or you’ve heard teaching saying it was something that only happened at Pentecost and not for us.
You may also wonder, what is the big deal about speaking in tongues? Yes, why should we speak in tongues?
Cor.14: 4
He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

When I first received the tongues it became a great help in my prayer life. When I speak in tongues I get edified, and when I lack words and don't know what to pray, I begin to speak in tongues and the Spirit helps me.


Rom.8: 26
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.


I think what shared concept had shared is right

In Christ

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : tom2   View Profile   Since : 23 Jan 2006 5:47:45 AM Close
There are three types of tongues.

Tongues for your own use. This is the type I mentioned above. You are speaking secrets
with God in a non-earthly language. This is the type of tongues that edifies you.

1 Cor 14:2
For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit


Tongues for the Church. This type should be interpreted, and is one of the nine supernatural gifts in 1Cor 12. This interpretation is for the whole Church or for individual.
1 Cor 12:10
to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.


Tongues for unbelievers. This is the type of tongues we see at the day of Pentecost. It's an earthly language, not known by you but for the one who hears.
1 Cor 14:22


In Christ

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : tom2   View Profile   Since : 23 Jan 2006 5:52:46 AM Close
Arguments against speaking in tongues


When we read chapter fourteen in 1 Cor., it seems like Paul is against speaking in tongues.


1 Cor 14:6
Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?


What is important to see here is that Paul is talking about the use of the tongues in the church. The problem in the first church was that everyone was going around and speaking in tongues all the time. Paul, in this chapter, is trying to put things in order and give instruction on how they should use the spiritual gifts. The challenge in the church was not that it was not in use, but they used it a lot and in wrong ways, so it became a mess. That’s why he says that not more then three should speak in tongues and then should be interpreted and that not more then two or three should prophecy in a meeting.


This chapter does not speak so much about tongues for our own edification, but you can read from this verse that Paul used it a lot.
1 Cor 14:18
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.


What about using tongues for edification in the curch?
The point Paul is showing in these verses is that we should not use tongues all the time, no one will get anything out of it, especially if some one that is not saved is to the meeting. The visitors will be repulsed by the confusion, and the phenomenon, meant to be an impressive sign, will have a negative effect on the unsaved.


1 Cor 14:23
So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?


At a prayer meeting were everyone is familiar with tongues, it is okay to use. It helps to lift the meeting and prayer will be more effective. So, it is not tongues Paul is against,

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : tom2   View Profile   Since : 23 Jan 2006 5:54:58 AM Close
cont"
but how different gifts are being used in the church, and that they be used with wisdom.


praise the lord

Brother in Christ

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 Jan 2006 12:22:24 PM Close
Dear Readers and 'sahredconcept' Part-1

The recent postings from ‘sharedconcept,’ especially on 19 Jan 2006 are misleading. He also made a few quotes from my postings of 13 Jan 2006 as part of his answers. When he quoted them, they were partial and/or out of context. This tactics is a mark of those who claim to be speaking in tongues, especially when they try to establish ‘speaking in tongue’ as a scriptural gift that exists today as it was in the early years of Christianity. But, this is the first time in my experience; a recent writing (one that can be easily verifiable because it is on this thread) was quoted partially and out of context by another for the same purpose. Usually they do it with the scriptures.

On 19 Jan 2006 11:18:29 ‘sharedconcept’ wrote, “False accusation is a serious offense.” He also wrote, “I have never written about ‘other tongue’ in any of my writings.” --- When this thread started with the title, “Other Tongue,” ‘sharedconcept’ was the first one to post a reply. He did not have a shade of doubt about what was meant by the original poster about the meaning of ‘Other Tongue.’ That action of his on 17 Nov 2005 02:31:36 is a clear indication of what he writes is about ‘Other Tongues.’ If not, he should have sought clarification before answering. I did not falsely accused him about ‘Other Tongue.’ On the contrary, I pointed out that he is arguing about an unscriptural subject, using a scriptural doctrine.

On 19 Jan 2006 11:33:16 ‘sharedconcept’ also wrote, “1 Kings, 2 Kings and the epistle of Hebrews, all three of these books do not have the authors name.” --- It is a true statement. There may be others too. Could such lack of names for certain books in the Bible be used for the justification of using pseudonym, a false name, to propagate unscriptural teachings? I did point out the fact that the author of the epistle to Hebrews did not provide his name in the epistle...

(To be cont. Part-2)

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 Jan 2006 12:24:50 PM Close
Dear Readers and 'sahredconcept' Part-2

...This was on my posting of 13 Jan 2006 14:28:48. Now ‘sharedconcept’ added two more books. The two books he added are from the Old Testament and they deal with the history of the kings of Israel and Judah. If ‘sharedconcept’ thinks that the chroniclers of the kings were to place their names in what they wrote, then he is mistaken. Let us assume there is some validity in ‘sharedconcept’s’ argument. Having no name of the author is not the same as using a false name, a pseudonym, as ‘sharedconcept’ does. If ‘sharedconcept’ is emulating the writings of the sacred books, then let him write without using a false name. (Please do not think that I am asking all those who are using a pseudonym to stop doing so. Though it is preferable, I am not asking for that.) I am asking for the real name of ‘sharedconcept,’ only because he wants others to believe what he says about him and his claim that others in an assembly in Kerala know about his ability to speak in tongues. How can we verify the truthfulness of this without this information? He also should provide the necessary information for verification. If not, he has something to hide.

On 20 Jan 2006 14:24:55 ‘sharedconcept’ brought 2 John 1 to justify his use of false name. The phrase, “The elder,” is not a pseudonym. It was a personal letter. The “elect lady” knew who wrote that letter and we got its evidence. That is why we call it “The Second Epistle of John.” All these attempts by ‘sharedconcept’ to justify the use of a false name show how he interpret the scriptures. To him, his interpretations are that establishes the scriptures and not the other way around.

(To be cont. Part-3)

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 Jan 2006 12:26:37 PM Close
Dear Readers and 'sahredconcept' Part-3

All the scriptural references he gave in the past to support of speaking in tongue are applicable to the time before the scriptures were complete (TELEIOS = end, complete. Therefore, in KJV the word ‘perfect’ is used to translate this Greek word) and we read about it in 1 Corinthians 13:7-10. On 19 Jan 2006 13:45:29 he wrote, “…millions and millions of people all over the world do speak in tongues.” Of course over six billion (a billion is 1,000 million. Therefore 6 billion = 6 x 1,000 x million.) people speak in tongues. That fact does not make what he speaks, as ‘tongue’ is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

On 19 Jan 2006 14:12:00 ‘sharedconcept’ wrote, “Who said that the Scripture is incomplete or imperfect?” --- It was ‘sharedconcept’ who wrote it. We don’t have to go too far to find his statement to this effect. If you read the next paragraph of his, it starts with, “Just because God revealed something through a believer, does that mean that it has to added to the already written word?” There are two things for us to be concerned about: first, “God revealed something through a believer.” When we read that God revealed something, it was certain thing that was not known before, or hidden from man. Second, we know that ‘sharedconcept’ teaches that there are things that are not known before are being revealed. This is in addition to that that are made known in what we call the “Word of God.” In order to convince many, he even quote Revelation 22:18-19 and refuses to accept 1 Corinthians 13:7-10.

On 19 Jan 2006 14:22:22 ‘sharedconcept’ wrote, “You are limiting the scope of Paul’s teaching in 1 Corinthians with the topic of tongues. ORDERLY WORSIP is the main theme of 1 Corinthians 14 and tongues, interpretations or tongues, prophecy etc. are all part of the big picture.” --- If we read 1 Corinthians 11-16, it will be clear that the coming together of the believers on the first day of the week was marred by various matters...

(To be cont. Part-4)

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 Jan 2006 12:28:40 PM Close
Dear Readers and 'sahredconcept' Part-4

...One of the major things was that they wanted to speak in tongues, especially to God. They did not consider that the tongues were a sign to the unbelieving and what ever they do is to edify the Body of Christ, the Assembly. In 1 Corinthians 14 we read about their error in speaking in tongues and how that must be corrected for the edification of the saints. Paul corrected them by saying that he would prefer to speak in a few words that is understood by others is preferable to speaking in tongues. Speaking in a language that is not understood by others and claiming that they were speaking to God has to be stopped. This was the message Paul gave to them. (If ‘sharedconcept’ wants to discuss this further, why can’t he start another thread on 1 Corinthians 14? I asked him to do so, more than once.) Before writing about speaking in tongues Paul told them, “Love never fails, but whether prophecies, they shall be done away; or tongues, they shall cease; or knowledge, it shall be done away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part: but when that which is perfect (TELEW = to end, to finish) has come, that which is in part shall be done away.” (1 Corinthians 13:7-10) In 1 Cor. 15:24 we read, “Then cometh the end…” The same word TELEW is translated as “end.” On the cross, when our Lord shouted His victorious cry, “It is finished” (John 19:30), it was the same Greek word TELEW that was used. Sambudhanoor was right when he pointed this out to ‘sharedconcept’ in an earlier posting. It is unmistakably necessary for ‘sharedconcept’ to interpret 1 Corinthians 13:10 as saying that the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is what is mentioned as “perfect is come.” This erroneous and out of context interpretation was needed to establish his false teaching about speaking in tongue...

(To be cont. Part-5)

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 Jan 2006 12:30:22 PM Close
Dear Readers and 'sahredconcept' Part-5

...Any one who reads the scriptures in its context will realize that what is taught there is about the revelation of God’s mind and before the completion or finishing (TELEW) of the written Word of God, the Holy Spirit used gifts such as prophecy and tongues to reveal His mind to the saints. Apostle Paul told the Corinthians who misused the gifts of the Holy Spirit, especially speaking in tongues, told them that will cease (1 Cor. 13:8). The Pentecostals and Charismatics, like ‘sharedconcept,’ refuses to accept that which is written. We should be followers our Master, when He was tempted, He told Satan that “It is written,” and we tell them that it is written, “…or tongues, they shall cease…” When he calls us “Cessationists,” let us tell him, “It is written…” Let them remember, that Apostle Paul was the first and we are just following him as he was of Jesus (1 Corinthians 11:1). He may like to make Warfield the first on this list, but the Word of God speaks on the contrary.

On 19 Jan 2006 14:54:04 ‘sharedconcept’ asked, “Where did I say that the word of God is incomplete or imperfect?” --- About 42 minutes and 4 seconds ago from that question ‘sharedconcept’ wrote, “Just because God revealed something through a believer,…” God reveals that which was not revealed before. Is it the same person who writes under the pseudonym ‘sharedconcept?’ He wrote that God reveals something through a believer and within an hour he asks, “Where did I say that the word of God is incomplete or imperfect?” In 1 Corinthians 10:7-10, we are told that when the revelation of God’s mind is completed, tongues will cease. ‘Sharedconcept’ referred to Rev. 22:18-19 on his posting of 14:12:00 and agreed that the revelation of God was completed. On the same posting he said that revelation of God continues through a believer. Now he asks, where did he say that?

(To be cont. Part-6)

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 Jan 2006 12:32:17 PM Close
Dear Readers and 'sahredconcept' Part-6

On 19 Jan 2006 14:54:04 ‘sharedconcept’ wrote, “It’s unfortunate that you have some sort of a personal vendetta against those who speak in tongues.” --- I have no vendetta against any one. But, I show them how they mock the Word of God and thus the Holy Spirit by claiming that God continues to reveal through believers in the 21st century. In 1 Corinthians 10:7-10 we are told that the revelation of god’s mind for us is completed and certain gifts, as stated are ceased or done away with.

On 19 Jan 2006 15:55:41 citing 1 Corinthians 12:11 ‘sharedconcept wrote, “Tongue is one of the gifts to the body by the Holy Spirit… Every Spiritual gift given to the body is valid until the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.” --- Allow me to quote that verse, “But all these things operates the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each in particular according as he pleases.” Where did he get the idea that the gift of speaking in tongues as we read in 1 Corinthians was a gift to the body? Is he talking about the body of Christ, the Assembly? In 1 Corinthians 12, the subject was misuse of the spiritual manifestations among the brethren, the individuals. Apostle Paul was not saying that the speaking in tongue or any other spiritual manifestation was a gift to the Assembly. The gifts are given to the individual. On an earlier posting; 12 Jan 2006 23:44:32, he wrote, “Thank God for Sambudhanoor. You are a gift to the body of Christ.” With reference to it, I asked him on 13 Jan 2006 Part-6, “Where does he read that believers are a ‘gift to the body of Christ’?” On 20 Jan 2006 12:45:23 ‘sharedconcept’ answered my query on Sambudhanoor as, “You are living in the North American continent and tell me something, you have never heard of a figure of speech like that? It is so obvious that people can never be spiritual gift to the body of Christ. That a comment had a twinge of sarcasm in it and I apologize for that.” --- Let us listen to what he says:...

(To be cont. Part-7

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 Jan 2006 12:34:14 PM Close
Dear Readers and 'sahredconcept' Part-7

...He uses figures of speech to establish his teaching and not the Word of God. I asked for a reference from the scriptures to justify his statement about Sambudhanoor. He tells that a figure of speech is the justification! Doesn’t he know that Sambudhanoor is a member of the body of Christ, the Assembly? Why a part of the body receives itself as a gift to the body? A gift is that is given from outside the body to the body. Sambudhanoor is a part of the body. To that part, Sambudhanoor, the Holy Spirit has given gift(s) and he is using it for the glory of God. Sambudhanoor is not a gift to the body.

On 19 Jan 2006 15:55:41 He also wrote, “Every Spiritual gift given to the body is valid until the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.” --- If this is true, then why did Apostle Paul wrote, “Love never fails, but whether prophecies, they shall be done away; or tongues, they shall cease; or knowledge, it shall be done away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part: but when that which is perfect (TELEW = to end, to finish) has come, that which is in part shall be done away.” (1 Corinthians 13:7-10) We know that chapter 13 comes between chapters 12 and 14. ‘Sharedconcept’ should read chapter 13 also. Then it will become clear that prophecies and speaking in tongues are for the early stages of Christianity and when we became older and matured, even individuals (Paul is an example), those gifts are ceased or done away with. We do not see things as through a dim window obscurely. When the revelation of God was completed, came to perfection, we know as we should know. There is nothing more to be revealed through believers. We have to learn from what is revealed.

(To be cont. Part-8)

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 Jan 2006 12:35:38 PM Close
Dear Readers and 'sahredconcept' Part-8

On 20 Jan 2006 12:25:48 ‘sharedconcept’ wrote, “Spiritual gifts to the body by the third person of the Trinity (1 Cor. 12:11).” --- Where do we read that the spiritual gifts are to the body? (Before he wrote that Sambudhanoor is a gift to the body.) About the third person of the Trinity, let me remind you that there is no order of person in the Godhead. There is one God and His name is “The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” The Father is not the same person as the Son or the Holy Spirit. Similarly the Son and the Holy Spirit. There is distinction of persons. The Son revealed this distinction by placing the word “and” (KAI – Greek) between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in Matthew 28. Their oneness is revealed by the Son by saying “In the name” (singular) and not “names” (plural). There is only one name but different and distinct persons. We should not be talking about the Holy Spirit as the third person in Trinity; He is equal with the Father and the Son.

On 20 Jan 2006 12:25:48 ‘sharedconcept’ asked a question on Isaiah 11:9 and it was followed by his teaching about an order in Trinity. Is he trying to change the discussion on speaking on tongues and the cessation of it by bringing other subjects into this discussion?

On 20 Jan 2006 12:25:48 after quoting 1 Corinthians 13:9, “Even with the completed canon, we can only prophesy in part. The big picture is still held by the Lord…” --- It is indubitably told in 1 Corinthians 13:7-10 that when the Word of God is completed, prophecies shall be done away with. We can proclaim what is completed, and that is the completed word about the God’s mind for us. In that sense the translators of KJV used the word “perfect” in 1 Corinthians 13:10. We can expound on what is revealed as the completed word from God. Though, carelessly, we may call it prophesying, it is only repeating what is in the Bible and not a new revelation of God’s mind.

(To be cont. Part-9)

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 Jan 2006 12:37:28 PM Close
Dear Readers and 'sahredconcept' Part-9

About what he wrote, “Every Spiritual gift given to the body is valid until the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ,” we should remember that Paul who had the gift of healing and raising the dead was unable to heal others. Timothy was one of them. He left Trophimus sick in Miletus. He himself was sick and prayed for healing three times, but did not get the healing he desired. May I ask ‘sharedconcept’ to justify his statement about spiritual gifts are valid until the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, from the scriptures?

On 19 Jan 2006 16:38:32 ‘sharedconcept’ wrote, “The Lord Jesus in Mathew 6:7 referred to hypocrites and pagans. They went out of their way to draw attention on themselves and he literally rebuked them for that. What does that has to do with people who speak in tongues?” --- It has to do with what you wrote on 12 Jan 2006 22:30:01. Why don’t you read what I wrote as posted on 13 Jan 2006 14:20:50, Part-3? It continued on to Part-4 that was posted on 13 Jan 2006 14:24:22. If you do, then you will have the answer. His posting, the whole posting that is referred to as above is another deception of ‘sharedconcept.’ Without reading my postings properly he quotes what I wrote out of context. As he frequently quotes the scriptures out of context, I should not be complaining about his tactics.

On 19 Jan 2006 ‘sharedconcept’ wrote about my posting of 13 Jan 2006 14:24:22, “Your analogy about limiting it,” (John 14:12), “to merely the local areas is not a good one.” ---
If any one read my posting, it will become clear that ‘sharedconcept’ is misrepresenting what I posted, as usual. For the convenience of the readers, let me quote what I wrote and posted earlier: **“On 12 Jan 2006 22:17:48 ‘sharedconcept’ wrote to Sambudhanoor, “The supernatural power of God is available to all of us. Why would you want to limit it with the time of apostolic era?”...

(To be cont. Part-10)

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 Jan 2006 12:39:09 PM Close
Dear Readers and 'sahredconcept' Part-10

...It is true that Sambudhanoor used the term “supernatural sign gift” in his posting; he never used or referred to speaking in tongue as “supernatural power.” There is only one Power that can be termed as “supernatural power,” if I use that term and that is the Person of the Holy Spirit. I use it with reverence. I use it only because our Lord Jesus Christ said in Acts 1:8, “But ye will receive power, the Holy Spirit having come upon you, and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem and in Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” ‘Sharedconcept’ who speaks in tongue now equate it with the Holy Spirit. This kind of distortion and falsification of truth is part of those who claim to be speakers in tongues. They don’t want to limit it to the apostolic era. Why? They want to elevate themselves to the Level of the Apostles and are eager to spread the false doctrine by equating it to the Holy Spirit.”** I quoted Acts 1:8 and asked ‘sharedconcept’ about equating a ‘so called gift he claim to be his’ to be equal to the Holy Spirit? He wrote that speaking in tongue is a “supernatural power.” May be, when he prays, as he claims, in speaking in tongues to God, he may be showing his supernatural power to God Almighty? To distract the readers from this erroneous teaching, on 19 Jan 2006 17:46:02 he replies as if what I posted was against Dr. Billy Graham, as an example. What a deception, from a person who claims to be speaking in tongues?

On 20 Jan 2006 11:25:52 ‘sharedconcept’ wrote, “New International Version (N.I.V) is a good translation…” When I wrote about NIV, I also showed where the scholars added ideas that are not in the original. Such additions make NIV a paraphrased translation. Paraphrasing makes it similar to a commentary, rather than a translation.

(To be cont. Part-11)

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 Jan 2006 12:41:02 PM Close
Dear Readers and 'sahredconcept' Part-11

On 20 Jan 2006 14:55:59 ‘sharedconcept’ wrote that he wants me to underwrite the debate cost that he proposed and promised to underwrite. Let me quote him, “With the grace of God, I am able to afford $10000.00 and I want to make sure that you would be also.” I never challenged any one for a debate with the promise of paying for the expenses. It was he who did it. Now he is asking that I should pay for it. May be, this may be a characteristic of those who speak in tongues. We don’t understand what they say or write. He should read my original posting after he proposed the debate in India.

On 20 Jan 2006 16:35:55 ‘sharedconcept’ wrote about his teaching on the “gifts of the Holy Spirit.” We need information for verification, because we don’t believe what he wrote. Who accepted what he taught? Where did he teach? Who are the elders that consented to it? These are some of the questions he has to answer. Who knows ‘sharedconcept’ is telling the truth. He has already falsified his name. He also changed the terms of a debate he proposed. He wrote that a member of the body of Christ is a gift to the body. He also wrote speaking in tongues is a gift to the body. He has not provided the scriptural justification on the last two. He cannot agree with the Word of God after reading scholars who studied, reading meditating and researching. (When the World Council of Churches [WCC] met in New Delhi – I think it was in 1960 – under the topic “Jesus Christ the Light of the World,” their final press release said that after years of studies, reading, meditations, and research they cannot come to a conclusion that Jesus Christ is the light of the world.) Then He also write, “I meant every word I said.” (20 Jan 2006 17:10:42)

(To be cont. Part-12)

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 Jan 2006 12:42:11 PM Close
Dear Readers and 'sahredconcept' Part-12

The one who claims to be the recipient of the gift of speaking in tongues is using deception and misrepresentation of what others write. Is he claiming that is one of the gifts he received? A believer is indwelt, anointed, sealed, and baptized, by the earnest of the Holy Spirit, gift of the Holy Spirit, promise of the Holy Spirit, and filling of the Holy Spirit. One who is like this should not show the characteristics of a spirit of fear, deception, cowardice, etc. They will be more than willing to provide verifiable information about speaking in tongues for the edification of the unbelievers who disagree with him. In 1 Corinthians 14:22 we read, “So that tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe, but to unbelievers; but prophecy, not to unbelievers, but to those who believe.” Can we ask ‘sharedconcept’ to provide that information to us, the unbelievers?

Shalom malekim!!!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 Jan 2006 1:23:47 PM Close
Dear Tom2,

Will you please tell us where do you find a verse in the scriptures that justify your statement, "Remember that God is a gentleman and he does not give you something you don't want..."

God is not a man. Your statement shows the lack of reverence to God from your part. You consider Him to be your equal. He has revealed Himself in the scriptures and you should use what He has revealed with fear and trembling. Those who are His children have the boldness to approach Him in Christ. They do not have any right to treat Him as their equal. We may treat our parents as our equal, but not God who adopted us with the anointing of the Holy Spirit, who prompts us to call Him our Father. Usually, this lack of reverence can be seen among the people who claims to have the gift of speaking in tongues, healing, etc. They also use terms that are alien to the scriptures, such as: "Brother Jesus." They also prefer to use terminologies from the Old Testament showing that they have no knowledge of their position before God. One of them is: Many of them start their prayer addressing the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They do not address the prayer to "The Father." May be, they don't know Him as their Father.

Your understanding of the 1 Corinthians is marred with your attitude towards God. You think that He is just a 'gentleman.'

1 Corinthians 14 is what Apostle Paul corrected the Corinthian Christians on their manifestation of Speaking in Tongues. There he used the rhetoric to capture their attention and told them that they should speak in a language that is understood by those who hear them.

Shalom malekim!!!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 23 Jan 2006 9:41:04 PM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor,

"Yet, it's not just a Christian experience. Many in the occult and in Eastern Mysticism, both in and out of the New Age movement, also speak in tongues. In summary, the Bible doesn't recommend using tongues as a private language"

It's not a Christian experience to those who do not understand what tongues is all about. On the day of Pentacost, 120 at the upperoom spoke in tongues and "some, however, made fun of them and said, "they have had too much wine". The same mocking is going on for the last 2000 years.
Don't forget, after they accused them of drinking too much wine, God used an uneducated fishermen to defend the experience by telling them that "No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel".

"In summary, the Bible doesn,t recommend using tongues as a private prayer language"

Bible encourages believers everywhere to seek after spiritual gifts. "Desire spiritual gifts"
(1Cor.14:1). There is nothing wrong with having a desire to speak in tongues because it edifies-
(1Cor.14:4)."He who speaks in tongues edifies himself". The word edify means to "build up" or
"charge up"-much like charging up a battery. We all need a spiritual charge. All of us at times feel spiritually drained. One of God's ways to
charge your spirit is through speaking in tongues. Usually languages are given their names
based on the countries they came from. For example, English comes from England. Hindi comes from India. And where does tongues comes from?.
It comes from God. It is heavenly language.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : tom2   View Profile   Since : 24 Jan 2006 12:09:13 AM Close
Dear Gpk,

i have noticed one thing in your all statement whenver the discussion is going on u always take out a state ment of others and try to attack on that statement.... well

Gentleman means i think u dont knoe the exact meaning of that i have noewhere written that i have taken it from bible....here its a comparision....but still if u think that i have written something which is wrong i apologise for that okie......

brother in Christ

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 24 Jan 2006 12:17:41 AM Close
Dear tom2

One who accepted Jesus Christ as his/her personal saviour become a Child of God, he is
Known as a Christian as per the Bible. But we are knows as different names, Brethren,
Baptist, Different Pentecostals, Evangelists etc., because of the doctrinal differences.

I would like to know your denomination to understand your doctrinal background, as you
have commented on the subject.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 24 Jan 2006 12:20:25 AM Close
Dear Sharedconcept

I would like to know the following: (as I posted earlier)
1. As your grandfather was the teacher of Kumbanad bible school, what was his belief and what he taught about "Other Tongue"?

2. As you gave a book to Bro. MM Zacharia about power of Holy Spirit, are you ever shared your experience about "Other tongue" with him and what was his response?

3. As you wrote, there is difference of opinion about Holy Spirit between MM Zacharia and JC Dev, I do not know what is the matter. I would like to know whether you shared to Bro. JC Dev about your experience about "Other tongue" and what was his response?

4. As you wrote, your parent assembly is existing of 100 family members, is that Brethren Assembly? If so, are you shared your experience about "Other tongue" with elders and what was their response?

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 24 Jan 2006 8:59:42 AM Close
Deat 'tom2,'

You have to decode your writing in tongue of 24 Jan 2006 00:09:13 for me to understand.

Shalom malekim!!!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 24 Jan 2006 11:17:57 PM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor,

"As you know very well Bro, MM Zacharia and he was a student of your grandfather is ok. I am also a third generation brethren believer, this is not our scope of discussion but the subject "Other T.ongues"

On Dec.01, 2005, brother Sambudhanoor brought the topic of M.M. Zacharia on the forum. He suggested that I should attend the Kottayam Brethren convention and that "There is a book written by Bro.M.M.Zacharia, filling of the Holy Spirit and other tongue, it is available in any biblical book shop, buy it and read it".

I wanted to stress a point that we (my family)
have known M.M. Zacharia for a long time and that we are all familiar with his position on the subject of tongues.

"I am also a third gneration Brethren believer".

Brother GPK wrote almost a pragaraph condemning me about my statement about me being a fourth generation Brethren. Now that you said you are a THIRD generation Brethren, I wonder how GPK is going to react.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 25 Jan 2006 12:05:27 AM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor,

"As your grandfather was the teacher of Kumbanad bible school, what was his belief and what he
taught about "Other Tongue"?

When it comes to the sensitive issue of family matters, the tendency among a Malayalee would be to become defensive and overprotective. I am not going to be like that. I am going to be very straight forward and candid. My grandfather was a
scholar and he wrote 13 books and on several books he dedicated an entire chapter against the subject of "tongues". Now why did I mention this?. It is to prove a point. I grew up in ultraconservative Brethrenism. Now that you have a small glimpse of my upbringing, I would like to stress something. Practically, a person like me coming into an experience (speaking in tongues) like this would be impossible. All odds
were against me. But God had mercy and compassion
upon me. His plans were so different. He filled me with his Spirit and bestowed upon me the gift of "tongues".

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 25 Jan 2006 12:19:26 AM Close
Dear Sharedconcept
The above things are OK, I am a Child of God not because I am 3rd generation brethren believer, but I accepted Jesus Christ as my Personal Saviour. Of course my parents guide me in a godly way for which I am proud of.
We are known as Brethren because we are believing and practicing certain sets of doctrines as per the Word of God, that differentiate us from others.
You are diverted from that doctrine, where there is no basis from the Word of God, that is why we are questioning your brethren connection.
Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 25 Jan 2006 12:23:59 AM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor,

"As you gave a book to M.M.Zacharia about the power of the Holy Spirit, did you ever share your
experience about "other tongues" with him and what was his response".

I gave him a copy of the book "Surprised by the power of the Holy Spirit" written by a former Dallas Theological Seminary porofessor, Dr.Jack Deere. I did not tell him that I speak in tongues
because that subject did not come up in our conversation. Now that you mentioned it, next time when I visit Kerala, I will definitely let him know.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 25 Jan 2006 12:36:12 AM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor,

"As you wrote, there is a difference of opinion about Holy Spirit between M.M. Zacharia and Jc Dev, I do not know what is the matter. I would like to know whether you shared to Bro. Jc Dev about your experience about "other tongues" and what was his response?".

I shared my experience with J.C Dev about ten years ago. Yes J. C. Dev believes in all of the
gifts mentioned in the New Testament. But don't take my words for it or that matter quote me to him. It would be better if you could contact him on your own. I can even give you his phone number and address.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 25 Jan 2006 1:02:02 AM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor,

"As you wrote, your parent assembly is existing of 100 family members, is that Brethren Assembly? If so, did you share your expereince about "Other tongue" with elders and what was their response"

Yes, it is a Brethren Assembly and as I mentioned
in the past, it has 100 families. Almost half of the members are already married to Pentacostals.
I personally have spoken to most of those people that came from the Pentacostal background and
they all felt like caged birds. Just about everyone over there at our assembly knows that
I speak in tongues. If the conservatives in Brothern asseblies thinks they can excommunicate every believer who acknowledges the gifts of the Holy Spirit mentioned in the New Testament, then
most of the assemblies would be left behind with
skelton members. No, I did not walk up to every elder at our assembly and inform him that I speak in tongues. What is the purpose for doing something like that?. They are already aware of my stand on this issue.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 25 Jan 2006 1:46:20 AM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor,

"We are known as Brethren because we are believing and practicing certain sets of doctrines as per the word of God differentiate us from others. You are diverted from that doctrine, where there is no basis from the word of God, that is why we are questioning your Brethren connection".

Are you insinuating that after I spoke in tongues, I lost my Brethrenism forever?.

You posted four major questions to me and I was anwering them one by one and all of a sudden
you inserted a reply in the middle of that process. In the future, please wait until the other person is finished.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : tom2   View Profile   Since : 25 Jan 2006 5:03:44 AM Close
Dear sam

if i say i am a brethren what would be your response.....i dont knoe

but honestly speeking i dont believe in any group though i am one of them,but i beleive holy bible and what ever is written in that.

"I would like to know your denomination to understand your doctrinal background, as you
have commented on the subject"

well if thats the case then i am a christain(born again & baptized)

brother in christ


Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : tom2   View Profile   Since : 25 Jan 2006 5:06:30 AM Close
1 Corinthians 12:13 (Read all of 1 Corinthians 12)

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : tom2   View Profile   Since : 25 Jan 2006 5:19:51 AM Close
dear all

As the tongue acts as an indicator of thoughts and convictions within the mind and heart, it also demonstrates a measure of yeildedness, either to SELF or to GOD. Thus, the "tongues" of Pentecost were GOD's (new) creation of the fruit of the lips (cf Isa 57:19). God had tamed the untamable (cf James 3:7,8). They spoke forth not in any excellency of man's wisdom but words that God inspirited.

The superiority of tongues over the manifestation of wind and fire is that the latter were both natural forces and not of human will. The 'speaking in tongues' resulted when God became totally sovereign in the lives of the 120 assembled disciples. Each individual had voluntarily surrendered his/her total being unto their LORD - JESUS. Each had yielded not only will but their whole being - physical, mental, vocal and spiritual faculties.

The reason why such surrender and exaltation in tongues, as an expression of the miraculous sovereignty of God, is not more often manifest is not because "the faith" has become established. Rather, it is because unbelief has infiltrated


Brother in christ

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 25 Jan 2006 6:11:15 AM Close
Dear Sharedconcept

Quote of Yours:
" You posted four major questions to me and I was answering them one by one and all of a sudden you inserted a reply in the middle of that process. In the future, please wait until the other person is finished."

When I visited the thread I see a posting of yours and replied it. I do not know you are in online or continually posting, after my posting again saw that your posting, that time only I understood you are online. Are you informed me in advance about your posting? Then why you tell me "in future please wait until the other person is finished"? Until and unless I aware of the fact I cannot act accordingly.

I believe you lost brethren believes as per the word of god, I do not think anybody in brethren assembly will allow you to tell the "other tounge" as a gift in their midst.

Not only you or the Pentecostal believe in the gift of the Holy Spirit mentioned in the New Testament but also all the Brethren believers also believe that. Here the question is the gift of "Other tongue" is in operation now?

You and Pentecostal background people why stay in cages? Break, the cage and fly away, faith and believes are personal freedom.

Your statement 50% of the assembly members spouses are from Pentecostal background may not be correct. In order to verify it, please post the assembly name.

Contd……

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 25 Jan 2006 6:13:28 AM Close
Dear Sharedconcept

Quote of yours:
" I shared my experience with J.C Dev about ten years ago. Yes J. C. Dev believes in all of the gifts mentioned in the New Testament. But don't take my words for it or that matter quote me to him. It would be better if you could contact him on your own. I can even give you his phone number and address."

Not only JC Dev, but all the brethren believers also believes the gifts mentioned in the New Testament. Here the question only is the "gift of other tongue" is operational now?
Your suggestion is not acceptable to me, if I contact JC Dev definitely that is based on your postings only, otherwise what is the reason I approach to him with this subject. I do not see any mistake in JC Dev's admission as you posted. How can I approach JC Dev with a persons name "Sharedconcept"? reveal your identity.

Do reveal your experience of your other tongue with MM Zacharia and get the answer.

Quote of your:
My grandfather was a scholar and he wrote 13 books and on several books he dedicated an entire chapter against the subject of "tongues". Now why did I mention this?. It is to prove a point.

From your post it is clear that your grandfather was against the operation of the gift of other tongue, in this days. Is he wrong as per the Word of God.? Will you post his name, because I want to read his books.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 25 Jan 2006 6:15:33 AM Close
Dear Bro. George P Koshy
Thank you for your answers, some of the points are edifying me, continue to write, God Bless you.
Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 25 Jan 2006 6:17:27 AM Close
Dear Sharedconcept

Following is an article from "Biblical Discernment Ministries" which is an answer to you:

Speaking in Tongues 7/1

The issue of "speaking in tongues" plays an important role in our days, and we should consider some of the reasons why Bible-based Christians cannot join this movement. Several points, which we will discuss briefly, condemn the present-day tongues movement as not being of God.

(1) 1 Corinthians is the only epistle that mentions speaking in tongues. This phenomenon has nothing to do with "praying in the Spirit" (Rom. 8; Eph. 5; Jude 20). Therefore, "speaking in tongues" is not essential, as some claim, for the life of faith of a Christian.

(2) In the Scriptures, "tongues" always mean languages that really exist(ed). The Greek word "glossa" is also used in the phrase "tongues, as of fire" (Acts 2:2), to indicate the tongue as a member of the human body. It is further used in Revelation 5:9: "every tribe, tongue, and people ..." to represent the different populations on the earth, with their different languages.
(3) Someone may speak in tongues (a foreign language), but this is never a proof that such a person is filled with, or even indwelt by, the Holy Spirit, let alone a spiritual believer (cf. 1 Cor. 1:5; 3:1).

(4) The gift of tongues is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit in the sense that He gives this gift through sovereign grace to some in the Assembly and He works in them (1 Cor. 12).

(5) As a gift of the Spirit, tongues receives the last place in 1 Corinthians 12:28 (which presents the order of importance from apostles and downwards) because its possibility to edify is very limited (1 Cor. 14), except in gospel work on the mission front. Paul, in his travels, spoke in foreign languages certainly using his spiritual gifts but not in his home assembly.

Contd……..

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 25 Jan 2006 6:18:59 AM Close
Speaking in Tongues 7/2

(6) Only the apostles and some of those converted by their ministry spoke in tongues. Generally speaking, the sign-gifts are limited to the apostles (apart from the Lord, of course). See Acts 2:43; 3:7-9; 5:12, 15; 9:40; 19:11.

(7) The signs are given as proofs and characteristics of the work of an apostle (2 Cor. 12:12). Apostles must have been with the Lord during His earthly ministry or have seen the Lord in the glory, as happened to Paul (Acts 1:21-26; 9:3; 1 Cor. 9:1; 15:8).

(8) The signs and miracles, including tongues, were given by God to confirm His Word (Mk. 16:17; Heb. 2:3-4; Jn. 2:23-25). The passage in Hebrews 2 refers to sign-gifts as something of the past, already past when this epistle was written (a few years before the destruction of the temple in 70 AD).

(9) Speaking in tongues is, therefore, a sign for the unbelievers (1 Cor. 14: 19-25) so they could understand what was being said (v.23). [The gift of healing is similar. We find in the New Testament that it is used only for the benefit of unbelievers (especially among the Jews, who looked for signs) to reach their conscience, to confirm the Word that was preached, and to establish the new testimony. We do not read about any healing of believers; in fact, to the contrary (see 1 Cor. 11:30; 1 Tim. 5:23; 2 Tim. 4:20; Gal. 4:13-14; 2 Cor. 12:7).]

(10) Speaking in tongues is only described in the book of Acts, in the three cases when new groups of believers were introduced into the Assembly (or Church) -- the Jews in ch. 2, the Gentiles in ch. 10, and the disciples of John the Baptist in Acts 19:6. All spoke in different languages, and that, without having asked for it!

Contd………

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 25 Jan 2006 6:20:08 AM Close
Speaking in Tongues 7/3

(11) With the progression of the testimony in the book of Acts, the number of signs and miracles diminishes quickly.

(12) Scripture presents two cases when signs and wonders take place. Most commonly, they are characteristic for the very beginning of a new dispensation. By way of exception, they also occur as a unique and temporary testimony to warn the professing people of God of soon-coming judgments. Moses, Joshua, our Lord, the twelve apostles, and the seventy that were sent out, were only sent to Israel and would fit in the first category (beginning of a new dispensation), whereas Elijah and Elisha fit in the second category (warning of judgment). The past testimony of signs and wonders, at the beginning of the Christian era, as well as a future testimony after the rapture of the Church, takes place within the borders of the Roman Empire.

(13) The completion of the revelation of the Word of God put an end to the special revelations, prophecies, and sign-gifts, including speaking in tongues (1 Cor. 13:8-10). We cannot discuss in detail in this report 1 Corinthians 12-14 (see report titled Biblical Tongues), but note that we should distinguish the gifts of prophecy and revelation of the beginning (Eph. 2:20), when the Word of God was not yet completed, from the gift of prophecy for edification (building up) which still continues to the present time (1 Cor. 13:8), the Word being now complete. [It is remarkable that the apostle Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, uses two different verbs in the Greek text to indicate a distinction between prophecy and knowledge on the one hand, which shall be done away with, and speaking in tongues on the other, of which he says "they shall cease" (1 Cor. 13:8). This last verb we could also translate with "pause," because they will function again at the introduction of the millennial reign.]

Contd………..

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 25 Jan 2006 6:23:32 AM Close
Speaking in Tongues 7/4

(14) Speaking in tongues is also presented in the New Testament as a fulfillment of Joel 2 and Isaiah 28 (1 Cor. 14:21) and, therefore, is intimately linked with Israel or the Jews. In Acts 2 and 19, and also in Corinth, the Jews are addressed by different tongues. Thus, they heard the Word of their God spoken to them with "pagan" tongues, something very exceptional. After the introduction of believing Gentiles into the Church, and after the formal closing of the Jewish dispensation (illustrated at the end of Acts 28 and implemented in the year 70 AD with the destruction of the temple), there are no more sign-gifts, at least not on behalf of God. [The enemy will fool people through an energy of error, allowed by God, in the coming days of apostasy (2 Thess. 2:8-12); however, a similar spirit of error is already at work, referred to as the mystery of iniquity.] God will give them again in the near future, connected with Israel: by the two witnesses in Jerusalem (Rev. 11) and, at the beginning of the coming millennial reign (Isa. 32; 53; Ps. 103), connected with a special healing of Israel.

(15) With regard to speaking in tongues (as well as any speaking), it is stated in 1 Corinthians 14:34 that women should be silent in the local assembly. Therefore, besides the arguments already given to show that speaking in tongues as a gift of God was limited to the beginning of the Church, we now come to a command of God, given at the beginning, but still valid for today. Yet, when these "gifts" are displayed today, mostly women are involved. [This is not said to discriminate against women! It is a matter of obedience to the Lord Jesus and of submission to the authority of His Word.]

Contd……..

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 25 Jan 2006 6:26:16 AM Close
Speaking in Tongues 7/5

(16) In religious movements and cults, such as Christian Science, Theosophy, Adventism, and all kinds of Pentecostals and Charismatics, women play an important role, either in the start of such a movement or in its emotional practices. The Holy Spirit should control emotions, which is often not so. Genesis 2-3 and 1 Timothy 2:11-15 indicate the place God has given to women; these passages also show how the enemy attacks God's order.

(17) Wrong use of speaking in tongues, even in the days of the apostles, was caused either by ignorance (1 Cor. 14:38), by lack of experience (1 Cor. 12:1), because of spiritual imperfection or immaturity (1 Cor. 2:6-16), or even willful abuse (1 Cor. 4:19).

(18) Unbelievers can do signs (Mt. 7:22; Rev. 13; 2 Th. 2:9; 2 Chr. 18:21; Acts 16:16). Furthermore, so-called speaking in tongues has been practiced in the past (even before the early days of the Church) by unbelievers and false teachers, as well as in our days: Plato, Virgil, before Christian Era; Irving, 19th century; Mormons, Buddhists, Spiritists, besides so-called Charismatics, in past and present days.

(19) True believers can place themselves under wrong, diabolical influences, as occurred to Peter (Mt. 16:21-23).

(20) The tongues at the beginning of the Christian era were real languages that could be verified. Today, those who pretend to speak in languages (tongues) do not know what language they speak nor what they say. Sometimes they try to justify themselves by saying that they are speaking in the tongues of angels (because nobody can check this).

(21) Often there is no interpretation, in contrast to Paul's instructions in 1 Corinthians 14. In reality, uncontrolled expressions that nobody can translate are pronounced; sometimes even curses are uttered, though in a language none of those present understands. If they give interpretations, they may contradict each other, or they are sometimes much longer than the tongue-spoken message, or they are very subjective, instead of glorifying Christ.

Contd…….

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 25 Jan 2006 6:27:39 AM Close
Speaking in Tongues 7/6

(22) A key passage is 1 Corinthians 14:15. This verse shows the one praying, singing, or speaking in tongues (and in context this refers to men in the public meetings of the local assembly) must himself understand what he speaks.

(23) To heed this principle would be very beneficial for many Christians today, who are involved in all kinds of manmade systems and may be placing themselves (often without realizing it) under demonic influences. Even so-called "singing in tongues" is practiced today.

contd.....

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 25 Jan 2006 6:28:56 AM Close
Speaking in Tongues 7/7

Conclusion
Speaking in tongues, when practiced according to the Bible, is a sign from God given to warn unbelievers of impending judgment. Because of this point, Scripture provides limiting conditions for its use within the Church, including the requirement that an interpretation should be given (also in the case of a visitor speaking a foreign language).
Furthermore, tongues were a characteristic of apostolic ministry, to confirm the Word of God in a time when the Church was not yet established in all its diversity and when the revealed Word of God was not yet completed. The destruction of the temple closed the days of the Jewish era. With the establishment of the new Christian testimony, which included Jewish Christians, the exercise of the sign-gifts, including speaking in tongues, simply stopped. (On the foundation of the apostles and prophets of the New Testament, Ephesians 2:20; Paul's ministry completed the Word of God and closed the period in which God gave revelations.) Therefore, the modern-day tongues movement must be rejected as a demonic influence which serves several purposes:

(1) To keep believers in ignorance and spiritual immaturity;

(2) To suggest that right now, in a day of small things like in Zechariah 4:10, we can have the same "great things of God" (Acts 2:11) as in the early days of the Church;

(3) To suggest that we are not under Gods dealings in discipline, because of decline and disobedience;

(4) To sow discord among Christians, while creating outward unity;

(5) To mobilize emotions, which are not controlled by the Spirit and Word of God.

Contd…….

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 25 Jan 2006 6:30:05 AM Close
Speaking in Tongues 8

Several Errors Often Accompany Speaking in Tongues Today:

(1) Often this practice goes together with introducing, defending, or propagating false teachings concerning the Person and Work of Christ;

(2) Women play a dominating role, forsaking the role assigned to them in the Word of God;

(3) There is a lack of true spiritual growth in the tongue-speaking movement;

(4) There is ignorance with regard to doctrinal or moral evil;

(5) There are many conflicts and dissensions because of a carnal condition.
The Lord has given His people the ability to understand His thoughts (1 Cor. 2:15) provided there is a true spiritual attitude (1 Cor. 2:6). When a Christian is speaking in tongues without knowing what he is saying, then this conflicts with his Christian position. It is also crucial, in our days of ruin in the Christian profession, to make sure from which source, Christ or Satan, one receives instructions, influences, or directives. James 3 is quite clear about the possibility of two different sources or fountains (cf. 1 Cor. 12:1-3; 1 Jn. 4:1-3).

Finally, the instructions in 2 Timothy 2 give much help for our days. Are we going to be real servants of the Lord? Are we willing to maintain His rights in the midst of the Christian profession where His authority has been rejected (not always doctrinally, but often practically) by human arrangements or religious systems in which Christ is not honored as Lord? If we reject His authority and rights, we deliver ourselves to God's governmental dealings, as a consequence of our disobedience (compare Rom. 1:24-32, Gal. 6:7). This will ultimately be the case for the so-called charismatic movement, when God will send an energy of error. 2 Thessalonians 2:9 gives the prophetic fulfillment after the rapture, but the principle applies today as well. May it please the Lord to keep us for His own glory, because of His Name!

* Adapted and used by permission of: "THE HOLY SCRIPTURES"/P.O. Box 677/HAWKESBURY, Ontario/Canada K6A 3C8/Alfred E. Bouter (ed.).
Biblical Discernment Ministries - 3/98

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 25 Jan 2006 12:38:44 PM Close
Dear George P. Koshy & Sambudhanoor,

The postings coming from both of you are rather lengthy. Anyone can quote a portion of an entire
article or book and make themselves look like
very scholarly. Often when I read some of the materials, It came across like long winded sermons. LET IT BE PRECISE AND CONCISE. In homiletics (sermon preparation), we see the importance of attention span. The average persons
attention span is between 15 to 20 minutes. Please be considerate towards those who are making an effort to understand what we are trying to present. Again, this is not a dynamic dual. Let us be gracious towards the impartial observers. Thanking you once again for your cooperation.

sharedconcept

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 25 Jan 2006 5:43:17 PM Close
Dear GPK,

"That action of his on 17 Nov 2005 02:31:36 is a clear indication of what he writes is about 'Other Tongues' if not, HE SHOULD HAVE SOUGHT CLARIFICATION before answering"

Dear brother, are you accusing me of not correcting'Bejoyaranmula' before I placed my writing?.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 25 Jan 2006 7:06:30 PM Close
Dear GPK,

"Please do not think that I am asking all those who are using pseudonym to stop doing so. Though it is preferable, I am not asking for that. I am asking the real name of 'sharedconcept'

Brother, ever since we started out this thred, you have been hollering at me to identify my self. You don't have any problems with others. Every time you yell and holler, you are coming across like a murine corps drill sergeant. I Know exactly what you are doing. If it bothers you that much to write back and forth with sharedconcept, then we might as well as drop the whole thing.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 26 Jan 2006 10:28:44 AM Close
Dear 'sharedconcept,'

I am not accusing you for not correcting Bejoyaranmula on his posting. I am just telling you that you were the one who agreed with 'other tongue.' I don't think that it is wrong, but just reminding you about where I got the idea that you support it, as an answer to your question. I did quote you before writing it.

If some one is ashamed of the name that his parents gave, that is not my concern. We know why, in your case? One whose parents, including grandparents and their parents, who received and taught the truth about speaking in tongue also gave you that name. You don't want to be known by that name among believers, because you want to be known by a name of another tongue! I presume.

It is up to you to drop the whole thing. remember, you challenged me for a debate offering to pay for all expenses. then you said, I should bear the cost too. I did ask you to particiate on a dialog on 1 Corinthians. when i failed a postive response, I took the liberty to start a thread on 1 Corinthians. I have not seen any move from your part to join in the dialog. Now you want "to drop the whole thing." I cannot force any one to participate in a dialog. My intentions are not provided on this forum as in a progressive revelation as you did. Your challenge for a debate was a reelation of intent in a progressive manner. It took more than one posting. Is 'Sharedconcept' a name known to any of the elders or men whose names you droped on this forum? If you have special gifts, then why are you ashmed to be known by your real name, as a person with those gifts? The Holy Spirit gave any gift to 'sharedconcept.' It was given to a man whom He led to Christ by a name that was given to him by his parents. That Holy Spirit is not a Spirit of fear, for you to hide under a false name or to be ashamed of Him.

Shalom malekim!!!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 26 Jan 2006 10:31:49 AM Close
Dear 'tom2,' Part-1

On 25 Jan 2006 05:19:51 ‘tom2’ wrote, “As the tongue acts as an indicator of thoughts and convictions within the mind and heart, it also demonstrates a measure of yieldedness, either to SELF or to GOD. Thus, the ‘tongues’ of Pentecost were GOD’s (new) creation of the fruit of the lips (cf Isa 57:19). God has tamed the untamable (cf James 3:7,8).” --- I suppose that ‘tom2’ uses ‘tongue’ for a ‘language.’ If so, let me say that in the expression of our thoughts, convictions, feelings, etc., the language we use is a passive conduit and not an active agent. The mind uses a language (tongue) to express our thoughts and it is not a language that acts as an indicator of our thoughts. The language (tongue) we read about in Acts 2 on the Day of Pentecost was not the fruit of their lips as an indicator of their thoughts. In acts 2:4 we read that they began to speak with other tongues (languages other than that they spoke) as the Spirit gave to them to speak forth. Now you are making it as a product of human thought and conviction. The tongue you claim to have and speak with may be like that, but what was spoken on the Day of Pentecost was what the Spirit gave them.

How does one say that tongue “demonstrates a measure of ‘yieldedness’ either to SELF or to GOD?” By ‘language’ what do ‘tom2’ refer to ‘dialectos’ (dialect) or ‘glossa’ (a tongue, or language)? The origin of different languages is not from the willingness of man to yield to God, but to exalt himself to God. This we learn from Genesis 11. The reference to Genesis 11 is more appropriate than to Isaiah 57:19. In his posting, ‘tom2’ did not quote the verse from Isaiah in its entirety. Let me quote Isaiah 57:17-21 which was addressed to the souls (breaths) that God made, “For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him; I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on backslidingly in the way of his heart...

(To be cont. Part-2)

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 26 Jan 2006 10:34:14 AM Close
Dear 'tom2,' Part-2

...I have seen his ways, and will heal him; and I will lead him, and will restore comforts unto him and to those of his that mourn. I create the fruit of the lips: peace, peace to him [that is] afar off, and to him [that is] nigh, saith Jehovah; and I will heal him. But the wicked are like the troubled sea, which cannot rest, and whose waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.” In Isaiah we read about peace as the fruit of the lips and not language (tongue). There is rest for him who has peace, and not for the wicked. After partially quoting Isaiah 57:19, he went on to refer to James 3:7,8 by saying, “God had tamed the untamable.” This is not only an erroneous interpretation of these verses; it is a gross violation of the rules of interjection. James 3 starts with judgment to teachers and offenders. Then James goes on to state how small is human tongue compared to his body, but it can offend others by words. Then he asked the readers to control themselves as men control their horses with bits being placed in its mouth. Then he takes up another example; the small rudder of a ship that turn it even in violent winds. Then he compares the tongue (the organ) of a man to a ‘little fire’ that can destroy a forest. Then he goes on to state that man was able to tame other creatures, but cannot tame our tongues (the organ and not language). James was asking the believers to be careful with the use of their tongue, the organ, so that they won’t offend others. If God has already tamed the untamable tongue as ‘tom2’ states, why is James asking us to be careful with our tongues? I hope ‘tom2’ will start reading what is written, as it is written, and not as he prefers.

After inserting in the scriptures what was not placed by the Holy Spirit, he goes on to say, “The ‘speaking in tongues’ resulted when God became totally sovereign in the lives of the 120 assembled disciples...

(To be cont. Part-3)

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 26 Jan 2006 10:36:38 AM Close
Dear 'tom2,' Part-3

...Each individual had voluntarily surrendered his/her total being unto their Lord – Jesus. Each had yielded not only will but their whole being – physical, mental, vocal and spiritual faculties.” --- In Acts 2 we read that they were together in one place as the Lord Jesus Christ asked them to do. On the appointed day, the 50th day (Pentecost means 50) after the resurrection, the Holy Spirit was sent and He came. They were baptized by the one Spirit into the body of Christ who is in heaven as its glorified Head. As a manifestation and fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy, they spoke in tongue. A reversal of what took place at Babel as we read in Genesis 11. God made the division by giving languages and He took that division away by using the same languages. By removing the division that came into existence in Babel, God showed to us that a group of people is in the making. In Acts 12, God who took them out of the Jews and Gentiles called them Christians.

He also wrote, “The reason why such surrender and exaltation in tongue, as an expression of the miraculous sovereignty of God, is not more often manifest is not because ‘the faith’ has become established. Rather, it is because unbelief has infiltrated.” --- Could ‘tom2’ enlighten us from the scriptures on this? Where do we read that the gifts of the Holy Spirit depend upon the surrender of man as an expression of the sovereignty of God? While answering this question, will he also explain about the magnitude of unbelief that infiltrated in Apostle Paul, when he wrote, “…or tongues, they shall cease…” (this is part of 1 Corinthians 13:7-10). “But in the Assembly I desire to speak five words with my understanding that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.” (1 Corinthians 14:19)...

(To be cont. Part-4)

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 26 Jan 2006 10:38:45 AM Close
Dear 'tom2,' Part-4

...“What is it then, brethren? When ye come together, each [of you] has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation…” (1 Corinthians 14:26). Where do we read that the tongue is “an expression of the miraculous sovereignty of God?”

On 24 Jan 2006 00:09:13 ‘tom2’ wrote something using his gift of tongue and I asked him to translate it for me. He has not done that, so far. If he really believes what he posts, why is he not obeying 1 Corinthians 14:17-18? When 'tom2' is not willing to obey 1 Corinthians 14:17-18, how can he claim that God became sovereign in his life and its manifestation is him speaking in tongue? Or, is he telling us that God does not have to be sovereign in his life for him not only to speak but also to write in tongue?

On 25 Jan 2006 01:46:20 ‘tom2’ wrote, “but honestly speaking i dont believe in any group though I am one of them, but I believe holy bible and what ever is written in that.” --- Is this true? I ask this question, especially when ‘tom2’ has made it clear that he does not believe in 1 Corinthians 13:7-10, at least. When he quotes, he misquotes or partially quotes to change what is written (Isaiah 57:19 is an example). There it is stated to the saints at Corinth that the speaking in tongue would cease. It was to a group of Christians who took pride in speaking in tongue as a manifestation of spiritual gifts to show their superiority over others who didn’t speak in tongues. When asked for translation by those who did not speak in tongue, they told them that it is between God and them, because they were speaking to God and not to men. In other words, it was none of their business to ask for a translation of what hey heard and failed to understand. (On 24 Jan 2006 08:59:42 I asked ‘tom2’ to decode, translate, what he wrote in tongue on 24 Jan 2006 00:09:13. I am still waiting for the translation.)...

(to be cont. Part-5)

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 26 Jan 2006 10:40:23 AM Close
Dear 'tom2,' Part-5

...One should read 1 Corinthians 14 to understand the inconsistency and misrepresentation existing in the arguments of those who claim to be speaking in tongue, compared to Paul’s teaching on it as an Apostle of Jesus Christ by God’s will.

Shalom malekim!!!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 26 Jan 2006 11:17:31 AM Close
Dear GPK,

"The "elect lady" knew who wrote that letter and we got its evidence. That is why we call it "The second Epistle of John".

Who is the elect lady?. As I wrote in the past,
Even the best scholars could not see eye to eye
about whom the apostle John was referring to.
Some of them thinks that it is a symbolic reference to a church and some of them says,
it was actually a person. Brother GPK, Please do not be so dogmatic about the correct identity of the "lady".


Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 26 Jan 2006 12:09:46 PM Close
Dear GPK,

"OF course over six billion (a billion is 1,000 million. therefore 6 billion= 6 x 1,000 x million). People speak in tongues. That fact does not make what he speaks, as "tongue' is a gift of the Holy Spirit".

According to C.Peter Wagner (missiologist),today
over 100000 people in Communist China (daily) are coming into the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. The under ground church is really thriving there. Majority of those who are transformed do speak in "tongues" and mind you it is not Chinese. Let us also take a look at what really happend in Kerala. Today, the IPC
church has over 3000 churches. Church of God, it's over 1200, Assemblys of God also has 1100. The Sharon fellowship has close to 1000. I don't know how many independent Pentacostal churches are in Kerala. The bottom line is, majority of the members in the churches I just mentioned do speak in "tongues".

"IF THEIR PURPOSE AND ACTIVITY IS OF HUMAN ORIGIN, IT WILL FAIL. BUT IF IT IS FROM GOD, YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO STOP THSE MEN; YOU WILL ONLY FIND YOURSELVES FIGHTING AGAINST GOD." (Ac.5:38-39)

Brother GPK, tell me something? How many assemblys are there in Kerala attached with the
Brethrens?. You have been writing about the
"unscriptural practice of speaking in tongues". If what you are saying is in line
with the Word of God, then what happend to the
Brethrens in kerala?. Just about every assembly,
the situation is so pathetic. It is dwindling.
I am not referring to the biological growth but I am referring to non christians and nominal christians coming into the saving knowledge of
Jesus Christ. "The Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved" (Ac.2:47).

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 26 Jan 2006 1:17:03 PM Close
Read Acts 19:1-7

1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.

4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into[b] the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[c] and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

Footnotes:


Acts 19:2 Or after
Acts 19:5 Or in
Acts 19:6 Or other languages
-------------------------------------------

1. baptism of repentence
2. water baptism
3. baptism in holy spirit.

see footnotes.

ie, Baptism
after beleiving.
in the name Jesus Christ.
in other tongues.

Question is Have you received the Holy Spirit?

Answer was have not heard of Holy Spirit.

Then Paul laid his hands upon them, they spake with tongues and prophesised.

Ephesians 4:14,15
14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 26 Jan 2006 3:43:49 PM Close
Matthew 3:5,6,11

John did: (baptism for repentence)

5People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. 6Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

John said:

"I baptize you with[a] water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Why Jesus was baptized before cruzification?

Matthew 3:13-15

13Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?"
15Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; IT IS PROPER FOR US TO DO THIS TO FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS." Then John consented.

LUKE 3:21-22

21When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was PRAYING, heaven was opened 22and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."


JESUS PRAYED AFTER WATER BAPTISM AND HEAVEN WAS OPENED AND THE HOLY SPIRIT DESENDED ON HIM.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 26 Jan 2006 4:47:09 PM Close
Dear GPK,
"Just because God revealed something through a
believer, does that mean that it has to be added to the already written Word?"

God gave strict command to the alredy written Word. He said not to add or delete anything to
His Word. God never ever said I have already spoken to my people through the Word of God and I will no longer be cmmunicating with them on a
one to one basis. God said, "Come near to me and
I will cme near to you, speak to me and I will speak to you." In the secular world, when we work for an employer, he/she gives us guidence as to how well we can perform. Not only that, there will be a rapport there between the employer and employee. How much more should we be able to expect the same from God?. Remember,
communication is not a one way steet. It's a TWO WAY street. Believers usually sing that song
"HE TALKS WITH ME AND HE WALKS WITH ME" in a casual manner. Brother GPK, have you ever sang that song?. If you have, were you like that parrot that chirped "captain on the deck,captain on the deck"?. Recently there was a very good article written about the song writer, E.I.Jacob on "NALLA EDAYAN". That man lost his beloved daughter at a tender age. Naturally, he was devestated. He endured tremendous pain and this went on for awhile. One day God spoke to him in an audible voice and said "JACOB, WHY ARE YOU SO
DEVESTATED?, YOUR DAUGHTER IS IN MY PRESENCE". Listn, God decided to comfort E.I. Jacob in his destress by communicating with him in an audible voice. God did NOT say, "I have already given my children the Word and I can no longer speak to them in an another manner". God also did NOT say, "Now that I have spoken in an audible voice, it has to be added to the 66 books."
God is sovereign and all of his attributes are as such. I realized that GPK already dug up some verses and tried to convince the readers that if God has spoken it has to be written. Such
teachings will make a believer ineffective towards the things of God. We serve an awesome God. We cannot LIMIT Him.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 26 Jan 2006 5:24:52 PM Close
Dear GPK,

"They did not consider that the tongues were a
sign to the unbelieving and what ever they do is to edify the Body of Christ, the Assembly."

This statement tends to contradict the Word of God. On one side GPK kept on insisting that
1Cor.14:22 is a sign to the unbelievers. In 1 Cor.14:27, we see the conditions given to the church to excercise the gift of tongues in a worship setting. In 1 Cor.14:26, we see the things that must be transpired in an orderly worship servie. In 1 Cor.14:39, it tells us to not to forbid speaking in tongues.

"Paul corrected them (Corinthians) by saying that
he would prefer to speak in a few words that is
understood by others is preferable to speaking in tongues."

Let us carfully examine what exactly Paul said.
Paul was not allergic to "tongues". Paul said to
use "tongues" for the edification of the body (1Cor.14:26-27). If we read what GPK wrote, we get a wrong picture. Paul wish that everyone spoke in tongues. Paul also said not to forbid people from speaking in "tongues".

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 26 Jan 2006 6:38:25 PM Close
Dear GPK,

It is unmistakably necessary for'sharedconcept' to interpret 1 cor.13:10 as saying that the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is what is mentioned as "perfect is come". This erroneous and out of context interpretation was needed to establish his false teaching about speaking in tongues"

Not only 1Cor.13:10, but also 13:12, is about the Lord Jesus Christ. "NOW we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror;THEN we shall see face to face. NOW I know in part;THEN I shall know fully, even as I am fully known" (1Cor.14:12).
"NOW, we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror." Even after we received the completed canon, we can only prophesy in part. Our knowledge is limited. We still cannot see the big picture. That is held by the Lord Jesus Christ. "THEN we shall see face to face". We will
indeed see HIM face to face. The Bible is referring to the Lord Jesus Chirst. "NOW
I know in part." Already, we mentioned about partial knowledge. Take the most educated person,
and we will find that, it is only partial knowledge. "THEN I shall know fully even as I am known". When is this "THEN" is going to take place?.After Jesus establishes HIS kingdom."The
earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea" (Is.11:9).
All the mysteries will be revealed. At that day there won't be any need for introduction of one another. Remember, saints from the beginning would be there. We won't be seeing anyone stepping infront of an another person and intoducing themsleves. There won't be any need to teach anyone else either. We will know fully.
Everyone will accomplish that fullness. What is this fullness is all about?. It is posessing complete knowledge about every subject there is.
Brother GPK, Where does the canonization of the
scriptures has anything to do with any of these portions?

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 26 Jan 2006 7:02:23 PM Close
Dear GPK,

"Apostle Paul was not saying that the speaking in tongue or any other spiritual manifestation was a gift to the assembly. The gifts are given to the individual."

Gifts are given to the individual for what?
"When you come together, everyone has a hymn,
or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. ALL OF THESE MUST BE DONE FOR THE STRENGTHENING OF THE CHURCH". Spiritual gifts are given so that they will be put to good use towards strengthening of the church. What is this strengthening of the church is all about?. It is to build up and edify one another. The apostle also said "Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that builds up the church" (1 Cor14:12). Church is the body of Christ. The objective behind gifts given to the body(believers) is to bring glory to God. When the individulals gather together, a body of believers would form. Brother GPK, you are going out of your way to prove something that is not found in the scriptures.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : ajax   View Profile   Since : 26 Jan 2006 7:22:53 PM Close
Dear 'George P. Koshy' and 'sharedconcept'.

I have questions for both of you.

To George P. Koshy,

You may want to take up the challenge of debate in USA instead of India. I think 'Sharedconcept' lives in USA and he and you can bring check books. Many like me may be interested in the outcome. I would be willing to be a witness and pay my mite, of my choice, to the winner at a place you would want to have the debate. Don't you think you are debating with your human knowledge and interpreting the verses in your own way in your own style as you understand them? How can you stop the work of the Holy Spirit? How can you stop divine work in any body's life? Does God work in your life just as he works in my life and answer your prayers in a similar manner as he answers mine? Did you ever witness Holy Spirit indwelling personally or just debating on inerpreting the verses? How does it matter to a villager, who does not know the timing of His indwelling.

To 'sharedconcept',

My question to you is when I pray to God I get answer. When I pray I communicate with him, is it not? I communicate with him and get answers and the answers can be seen. God does not speak to me personally just as any human being speaks to me. He comforts me through some Bible Verses, or through some God's servant giving answers to my questions, or some times when my wife or my children speak to me about the questions I have I experience that God is speaking to me through them. I never felt God speaking to me personally. Of course, when I meditate I feel some still voice in the heart speaking to me. Do you say that as God speaking to us. So, if that be the case, is prayer in plain language differnt than that of the 'tongues', which you are debating about? What these 'tongues' actually are? Are they intelligible to men? I hope you say they are intelligible to God. Well, then, my prayer in plain language is also intelligible God. Why then do I have to aspire to speak in 'tongues'?

Thanks in advance to both of you.

Ajax

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : ajax   View Profile   Since : 26 Jan 2006 9:54:08 PM Close
A point of interest from Acts 19:1-7 as quoted by Sunila Joseph. ‘

“Read Acts 19:1-7

1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?"

They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

The answer would be,

They heard of the existence of the Holy Spirit, but they did not know that the Holy Spirit was given on "Pentecost". Why do we have to make another "Pentecost" from the laying of hands every time? Does Sunila Joseph want to say by quoting Luke 3:21-22, that Holy Spirit comes in to one's heart after baptism? Please read Matthew Ch.3:15 The baptism of Jesus was to fulfill all righteousness. About Holy Spirit descending on Him, please read, John 1:33 The dove was considered as clean creature under Mosaic Law. That does not mean Holy Spirit indwelt Jesus when He was baptized!

If the baptism of Jesus is pointed out to say that Holy Spirit indwells a person when he is baptized, it would mean Jesus was a sinner, and after confessing his sins he was baptized, and when he was baptized Holy Spirit descended on him. What a great faltering here! Please do not quote the baptism of Jesus for the purpose of proving the existence of 'tongues' or the timing of the indwelling of Holy Spirit.

Ajax

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 26 Jan 2006 11:22:56 PM Close
Dear brother Ajax,

"Is prayer in plain language different than that of the 'tongues' which you are debating about? What these 'tongues' actually are? Are they intelligible to men? I hope you say they are intelligible to God. Why then do I have to aspire to speak in 'tongues'

Even though I have answered most of these questions in the past, I will make an effort and try to answer them again. You came across like a very sincere person.

I) Is prayer in plain language different than that of the 'tongues' which you are debating about?

They both are prayers to God. Usually, when we
pray in plain language (native language) we are indeed communicating with God. But when we pray in 'tongues' according to 1 cor.14:2, "For anyone
who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God Indeed, no one understands him; he utters MYSTERIES with his spirit." It involves things that are beyond our understanding (at least for the time being)

II) What these 'tongues' actually are?

According to 1 Cor.14:2, If no one understands them, then only God can understand them. It is bypassing our understanding (intellect) and directly communicating with God. It is exactly like picking up a telephone receiver and directly talking to God.

III) Are they intelligible to men?

If someone can interpret the "tongues" then it will be beneficial to the hearer. If not it won't be (1Cor14:27-28).

IV) Why then do I have to aspire to speak in 'tongues'?

1) Jesus said you will speak with new tongues (Mk
16:17)

2) Apostle Paul said "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you" (1Cor.14:18)

3) When we speak in tongues, we utters mysteries with our spirit (1Cor.14:2)

4) "He who speaks in tongues edifies himself (1Cor.14:4)

5) "I would like every one of you to speak in tongues (1Cor.14:5)

6) You could very well be thanking God. (1Cor 14:17)

7) The bible tells us to desire spiritual gifts
(1cor.14:1)

These are all some of the blessings attached with speaking in tongues.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : ajax   View Profile   Since : 27 Jan 2006 6:35:53 AM Close
Dear brother 'sharedconcept,

Quote:

"According to 1 Cor.14:2, If no one understands them, then only God can understand them. It is bypassing our understanding (intellect) and directly communicating with God. It is exactly like picking up a telephone receiver and directly talking to God".

Interesting. God has been faithful to me and answering my prayers. When I pray to him, it is like a telephonic talk to him, but you write when we talk in 'tongues' it is like, "....
According to 1 Cor.14:2, If no one understands them, then only God can understand them. It is bypassing our understanding (intellect) and directly communicating with God. It is exactly like picking up a telephone receiver and directly talking to God".

Let us try to be practical than interpreting the verses in two different ways. I am curious to know what mysteries God spoke to you in the month January 2006 or what mysteries you spoke to God in the month of January 2006?

When you pray to God in 'tongues' did you make few supplications or did you worship him?

Let me say that in the month of January 2006 God has been answering my prayers which I said in plain language, and he reveals mysteries of himself when I read Bible or when I read some Christian literature. What 'mysteries' you are exactly referring to?

Ajax

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 27 Jan 2006 7:24:47 AM Close
Dear brother Ajax,

1 Corinthian 14:2 is about uttering mysteries
with our spirit. If it is mysteries then it is beyond my intellectual understanding. It is the secret things of God and God hasn't revealed it me. nevertheless, my spirit is directly communicating with God. "For if pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." (1cor.14:14). When I spoke in tongues, my mind was UNFRUITFUL. In 1 Cor.14:16,
it is explained a little more clearly. "If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who find himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgining, since
he does not know what you are saying.". Verse 14 says my mind is unfruitful and verse 16 says that, the listeners don't understand it either. But only God understands. Pauls approach was rather well balanced. "So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind." (1Cor.14:15). Can we also adopt the same pratice?

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 27 Jan 2006 6:23:50 PM Close
Dear sambudhanoor,

Quote:

"How can I approach JC Dev's admission as you posted. How can I approach JC DEV with a person
name "sharedconcept"? reveal your identity.

Don't worry about mentioning "sharedconcept" to
JC Dev. The important thing is to Know where JC-
Dev stands on the topic of spiritual gifts. If you could ask him that question, then it won't be second hand knowledge.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 27 Jan 2006 6:36:14 PM Close
Dear sambudhanoor,

Quote:

"From your post it is clear that your grandfather was against the operation of the gift of ther tongues, in this days. Is he wrong as per the Word of God?. Will you post his name,
because I want to read his books".

My grandfather was a devout brethren until the day he died. When it came to the subject of spiritual gifts, we had our share of disagreements. In terms of posting his name on the Web, the timing is not right. If/when we decided to debate (GPK & myself), then everything you wanted to know about me will be revealed. Till then, we will hold our peace.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 27 Jan 2006 7:00:44 PM Close
Dear GPK,

Quote:

"If someone is ashamed of the name that his parents gave, that is not my concern".

Brother GPK, I am really looking forward to seeing you. In fact, if we proceed with that debate,I hope it could be recorded (audio&video). In that way, so many people will be blessed. When I see you face to face, I will give you my name, address, family history and along with whatever is needed
for confirmation. Until then, try not to insult
people. We are all believers and don't forget that.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : ajax   View Profile   Since : 28 Jan 2006 8:18:01 AM Close
Dear brother ‘sharedconcept’,

Except of 1 Corinthians 14th Chapter 14:2, though you quoted few more verses from the same chapter you did give elaborate explanations. Even on Verse 2 you just made a passing remark. I foresee from you answers like, “I do not know” more than any clear explanations. The answer to question, “What you spoke to God in ‘tongues’?” would be, “I do not know”, the answer to question, “What God spoke to you in ‘tongues’?” would be “I do not know”. “What mysteries you spoke to God in ‘tongues’?” the answer would be “I do not know”. What mysteries God spoke to you ‘tongues’?” the answer would be “I do not know”. The only answer I foresee from you is “it is a mystery”. It is like the “Babylon the mystery”, as we read in, in Revelation 18:10 “Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come”.

You are trying to read 1 Corinthians 14:2 as an isolated verse. You need to contrast this verse with verses relating to prophesying. Apostle Paul shows us comparison between speaking in unknown tongue to that of plain speaking or prophesying for the benefit of church. If I ask you how the tongues benefited you in edifying yourself, or the church, again your answer, I guess, would be, “I do not know: It is a mystery”. If it is otherwise, please explain how did it edify you or the church you are in, during the last one month?

If tongues do not edify you or you do not know how they edify you or what is ‘edification’, what is the use of those ‘tongues’, which you do not understand, nor does any body in the church understand. You also do not know, whether God understood them, because you did not get any answer. If you received any answer from God in the last one month as to what mysteries he revealed through, ‘tongues’ please write down.

I am convinced of one fact that you have not qualified even for pre-assessment for any debate.

(I did not get chance to write here after my last post)

Ajax

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : tom2   View Profile   Since : 28 Jan 2006 8:33:11 AM Close
Dear GPK.....

well i have found one thing that it is of no use to have discussion with you dont think that i can not ,but i dont feel so with the attitude you have.the only thing i can do is to pray for u rest i beleive one day defntl god only will revel it to you.even i wanted to have face to face discussion with you like shared concept but i dont think so that would be possible,but iam sur sharedconcept will take care of that

Brother in christ

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 28 Jan 2006 10:53:20 AM Close
Dear brother Ajax,

"The answer to question what you spoke to God in tongue would be, "I do not know"

Ever since we started out this thred, I have very seldom gave personal testimonies. In this case, I will do so. Recently, a good friend of mine called me to pray for his family. They were facing a very complex problem. First, I decided to pray for them in my natural understanding and it only went so far. Then I began to pray in the Spirit and this went on for a good half an hour.
"The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God" (1Cor2:10). This same verse also tells us that "But God has revealed it to us by his Spirit". In this case, this revelation came into the form of an answer to my prayer. Remember, "We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express" (Rom.8:26). The people who translated that verse from Greek to English missed it by a mile. According to a noted Greek scholar P.C. Nelson,
the correct translation would be "Groanings that cannot be uttered in an articulate language". The bottom line is, only the Holy Spirit can pray a picture perfect prayer. several weeks later, the brother called and said, everything was fine.

"If I ask you how the tongues benifited you in ediying yourself, or the church, again your answer, I guess, would be, "I do not know: it is mystery". If it is otherwise, please explain how did it edify you or the church you are in, during the last one month?"

Several weeks ago, a brother spoke in tongues during the worship service and an another brother gave interpretation and not only me but the entire congregation was blesssed by it. The interpretation was in the form of guidence regarding certain things that were taking place in the church.It was like a check mark. We accepted it with gratitude towards God.1Cor.14:27-28, literally transpired before the church. Indeed, it was edifying for all of us.


Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 28 Jan 2006 12:02:30 PM Close
Dear brothr Ajax,

"The answer to question," What mysteries you spoke to God in 'tongues'? "the answer would be "I do not know".

Apostle Paul was taken up to the third heaven where he heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. Paul also said, because of these "SURPASSING GREAT REVELATIONS",
there was given to him a thorn in the flesh. Also
in Gal.1:12, Paul said, " I did not reveive it (gospel) from any man nor was I taught it: rather, I reveived it by "REVELATION" from Jesus Christ". Undoubtedly, this man posessed greater revelatory things than anyone except the Lord Jesus Chirst. Yet, in regards to "tongues" he said, "You MAY be giving thanks well enough"
(1Cor.14:17). Here again, it is mysterious. Paul himself did not know as to how God used this gift
according to each and every occasion. But
overall, he did gave us a LIST of blessings attached with excercising this gift.

We cannot insist or demand upon God to reveal
each and every mystery. "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children
forever" (Deut.29:29). Thank God for the assurence he gave us in 1 Cor.13:12 "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror: then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known".

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : ajax   View Profile   Since : 28 Jan 2006 1:01:19 PM Close
Dear brother, 'sharedconcept',

First let me correct my typo in my last post:

"Except of 1 Corinthians 14th Chapter 14:2, though you quoted few more verses from the same chapter you did give elaborate explanations."

It should read as:

"Except for 1 Corinthians 14th Chapter 14:2, though you quoted few more verses from the same chapter you did NOT give elaborate explanations."
------------------

Quote:

“First, I decided to pray for them in my natural understanding and it only went so far. Then I began to pray in the Spirit and this went on for a good half an hour”.

You prayed first in natural understanding that is in plain language, I suppose, and when you did not get any answer you prayed in tongues. If you prayed it in plain language and did not get any answer either God is wrong in writing,

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Or, you had some sin in you that prevented your prayers reaching heaven.


In Romans 8:26 we read that Holy Spirit helps us to pray, that is He makes intercession on behalf of us, so that we may present the prayer in proper way to depict our deep-felt emotions. The Spirit adds to those intense feelings, and helps us pray in a manner which can not be explained, and those feelings can not be said in language, but that does not mean Holy Spirit helps us to pray in unknown tongue. We understand that the word, “groaning” here means sighing, the intense feelings, in natural way, in plain language, which can not be explained, and not uttering unknown words in unknown tongue. See for yourself, you volunteered to pray in tongues, when it did not work out in plain language.

Quote:

“Also in Gal.1:12, Paul said, " I did not reveive it (gospel) from any man nor was I taught it: rather, I reveived it by "REVELATION" from Jesus Christ". Undoubtedly, this man posessed greater revelatory things than anyone except the Lord Jesus Chirst.

Contd...2

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : ajax   View Profile   Since : 28 Jan 2006 1:02:53 PM Close
Continuation from previous post:

...Yet, in regards to "tongues" he said, "You MAY be giving thanks well enough" “

Galatians 1:12 reads as “For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.” Where was there a mention about ‘tongues’?

1 Corinthians 14:7 reads as “And even things without life which give sound, whether flute or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is played?” What did you intend to derive from this verse. The verse shows us the distinction, the meaning of that can be understood by the hearers. It only contradicts your belief. It says, your words in tongues can not be understood.


Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

It only means, God helps us with the means of knowing all that we need to know, and not strive for foolish, hurtful, and wicked things. How do you relate that verse to speaking in ‘tongues’?

Ajax

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 28 Jan 2006 1:10:47 PM Close
Dear brother Ajax,

"The answer to question, "What God spoke to you in tongues would be "I do not know".

I was going somewhere and was driving. All of a sudden I began to speak in "tongues" and after a while, God began to give me the interpretation.
Naturally, I could not jump up and down in the car. Remember, I am driving. God is sovereign,
and He decided to reveal to my finite mind what I was praying with my spirit. (1Cor.14:14). Every time I pray in tongues, I know that God is NOT going to reveal what I said with my spirit. In fact, in my personal prayer life, when I pray in "tongues" initially, I would be better of NOT knowing what I spoke to God or what God spoke to me in an audible fashion. Atleast, not before I get an answer from God. Why did I make that statement?.The answer is, why give the enemy any chance to hinder answers to our prayer?. In Daniel 10:12-13,We see Daniel praying (prayed in his native tongue) and the prince of Persia hindered that answer for 21 days. It took the archangel, Michael to intervene in behalf of Daniel and the victory was secured. What an added advantage we have over the Old Testament saints. "For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit" (1Cor.14:2).

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : ajax   View Profile   Since : 28 Jan 2006 1:27:48 PM Close
Dear brother, 'sharedconcept',

Quote:

"All of a sudden I began to speak in "tongues" and after a while, God began to give me the interpretation.
Naturally, I could not jump up and down in the car. Remember, I am driving."

Did you mean God did not give you revelation because he wanted to take precaution of you not meeting with accident, when all of a sudden you spoke to him in 'tongues'?

When you say God is sovereign you would also know that he can protect you.

Psalms 91:11-12 For he shall give his angels charge over you, to keep you in all your ways. They shall bear you up in their hands, lest you dash your foot against a stone.

Quote:

"In Daniel 10:12-13,We see Daniel praying (prayed in his native tongue) and the prince of Persia hindered that answer for 21 days."

This has reference to Acts 10:4

"And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Your prayers and your alms are come up for a memorial before God."

The prayers are instantly heard in heaven. Daniel 10:13 shows that the opposition was caused by powers of darkness. Why are you quoting this verse?

Ajax

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 28 Jan 2006 2:40:44 PM Close
Dear brother Ajax,

Quote:

"Did you mean God did not give you revelation because he wanted to take precaution of you meeting with accident,when all of a sudden you spoke to him in "tongues"

I was the one who got excited and not God. It is my responsibility to make sure that I won't go overboard. I also said several times that God is sovereign. God also gave me common sense to know that, if I jump from the top of a building, I will fall to the ground. Naturally, that is because of the gravity's pulling power. That is physical law. I cnnot quote Psalms 91:11-12 and jump from the top of building and expect Gods angels to bear me up in their hands?.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : ajax   View Profile   Since : 28 Jan 2006 4:15:12 PM Close
Dear brother, 'sharedconcept',

Quote:

"I was the one who got excited and not God. It is my responsibility to make sure that I won't go overboard. I also said several times that God is sovereign. God also gave me common sense to know that, if I jump from the top of a building, I will fall to the ground. Naturally, that is because of the gravity's pulling power. That is physical law. I cnnot quote Psalms 91:11-12 and jump from the top of building and expect Gods angels to bear me up in their hands?."

Your writing shows that you had full control on your body, mind and spirit, when you were speaking in 'tongues', which is contrary to what you wrote earlier that you do not know any thing when you are praying in 'tongues'. You are not taken in unconscious state but you were fully conscious as to what you are praying, and what you are doing. That shows that you praying to God, in 'tongues' is purely voluntary, and you did it with all your consciousness, not that Holy Spirit took control of yourself.

By the way you did not answer why you quoted Galatians 1:12, Deuteronomy 29:29, Daniel 10:12-13. Also you did not write a word about my answer that I posted by quoting Matthew 7:7, which was an attempt to answer your concern, and whether or not it was convincing to you to set aside your dilemma that your prayer in plain language was not heard by God. About Romans 8:26 and 1 Corinthians 14:7 I made some attempts to convince you, but you did not write whether or not they were satisfactory to you, or you contradict them.

Ajax

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 29 Jan 2006 3:07:25 AM Close
Dear brother Ajax,

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be open to you" (Mt7:7)

Jesus emphesised the importance of prayer in this passage. We also see the intensity level of prayer esclating to "knocking" at the door.

Tell me, is the subject of "spiritual warfare"
mentioned most in the gospels or in the Epistles?.After the substitutionary death of the Lord Jesus Christ, we see the resurrection,
ascension day of Pentacost,birth of the New Testament Church and the list goes on and on. Other than the Apostles, Jesus did not called anyone into the ministry of Prophets, Evangelist, Elder or teacher. In Epesians 4:11, we see the five fold minsitry. About the New Testament worship service, it's not all mentioned in one particular place. We see bits and peases of it through out. For example, in Acts 20:7, the assembly gathered together to break bread. So in the Epistles and in the Pastorial letters, clear cut guidence is given to the body as to how a church should function. Throughout, we see progressive guidence. Jesus taught us about praying in the passage you
mentioned (Mt.7:7). In 1 Corinthians the Holy Spirit inspired apostle Paul to write about how
the gift of "tongues" should be excercised in a
a worship service as well as for personal edification. Brother Ajax, Jesus in Mark 16:17 mentioned about tongues but Jesus did not teach us about "tongues" being a part of the spiritual warfare. So getting back to your question, first, I prayed with my understanding and after that in the spirit. You also said "If you prayed it in plaine language and did not get any answer either God is wrong in writing Mt7:7 or, you had sin in you that prevented your prayers reaching heaven". Paul prayed in the spirit as well as with his understanding. Paul said, "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you". Are you willing to make a statement that, Paul had sins in his life that's why his prayers never reached God and that Paul felt that God made a mistake in Mt.7:7

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : wilson609   View Profile   Since : 29 Jan 2006 7:38:54 AM Close
for the larger interest of the community of believers all over the world, i wish the debate between bro gpk and sharedconcept takes place.the same may please be recorded audio/video,as suggested by sharedconcept and made available to the brethren and pentecostal believers.when i heard the word debate, i remembered a debate which i heard took place in kumbanad,hometown of sharedconcept.it was i believe between onnunni sir(ipc) and k g kurian, organised at the request of people who wanted to know the truth about divine miraculous instant healing widely publicised by the pentecostals.the first chance to speak was given to onnunni sir who blasted for almost an hour and then came the turn of k g kurian.he got up and asked i heard,"if the divine instant miraculous healing as supported fireily by onnunni sir is real why did he have to carry such a heavy spectacles on his nose to read his bible." it took just 5 mnts for that greart man of god k g kurian to bring home the truth and onnunni sir had to leave the platform defeated.bro g p k pl take up the challenge for the sake of god and his people
Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : ajax   View Profile   Since : 29 Jan 2006 1:07:22 PM Close
Dear brother 'sharedconcept',

Post 1/2

Quote:

“Jesus emphesised the importance of prayer in this passage. We also see the intensity level of prayer esclating to "knocking" at the door”

Let me quote entire verse Matthew 7:7 for better understanding.

“Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:”

This verse is not an isolated verse. We read the right content and the right meaning of this verse when we read Matthew 7:7-11
“Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asks receives; and he that seeks finds; and to him that knocks it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father who is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?”

Vs.7 has three parts: 1. Ask, and it shall be given you
2. Seek, and you shall find
3. Knock and it shall be opened.

To your dissatisfaction it does not read, Ask, and it shall be given you: BUT IF YOU DO NOT RECEIVE, seek, and you shall find, BUT IF YOU DO NOT FIND, Knock and it shall be opened, BUT IF IT DOES NOT OPEN, SPEAK IN TONGUES IT SHALL BE GIVEN YOU, YOU SHALL FIND AND IT SHALL BE OPENED. I wrote in upper case only to shall how ridiculous it is to think that if you do not receive answer when you pray in plain language, you need to pray in tongues. In the first case, when a person was in complex problems, that is what you did. Your prayer has not gone too far, so you prayed in unknown tongues, which you did not know what you were praying and which you do not know whether or not God understood your prayer. In second case, you were driving, when suddenly you thought of praying in ‘tongues’, and you controlled your emotions, because you knew if you jump in the car you will end up in accident.

Contd..2

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : ajax   View Profile   Since : 29 Jan 2006 1:08:49 PM Close
Dear brother 'sharedconcept',

Post 2/2

It is obvious from your writing that you do not know what you were praying for, what language you used for prayer, and you can control your prayer in tongues, when you need to do that, on your own choice.

You raised a question about Apostle Paul’s prayer which, you thought was not answered. Let us see that also.

2 Corinthians 12:7-9 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord three times, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for you: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather boast in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Apostle Paul prayed about the thorn that was there in his flesh, and he asserts that God answered his prayer as we read in 2 Corinthians 12:9 “And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.”

It was for the benefit of Apostle Paul that God did not remove that thorn from his flesh, and it is not written there that God did not answer his prayer.

About “Spiritual Warfare” and other matters, like you quoted, Ephesians 4:11, . Mark 16:17, if you open another thread, I will surely come there and answer you, and learn from you if need be. Let us not bring in the whole Bible for discussion under one thread.

Right now, let us concentrate on ‘tongues’.

Ajax

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 29 Jan 2006 2:00:51 PM Close
Dear brother Ajax,

For the last two months, I have been writing back and forth with GPk, Sambudhanoor and now it's Ajax. I went through an experience and I am absolutely convinced that it was in line with the Word of God. Apparently, you have a different take on that. It seems like it's a never ending process. The only encouraging thing that came out of the whole thing was the feedback I received from so many believers.They were so gracious to send me a personal Email. I am glad they were able to respond from every continent. In the mean time I find myself spending countless hours in front of the monitor. The portions we have been writing back and forth have been pretty much the same and it is becoming rather repetitious. It would be better if that "debate" ever materializes. In that way, the listeners would be a able to descern. Having said that, from now on, my participation in the thred would be minimal.

sharedconcept

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : ajax   View Profile   Since : 29 Jan 2006 3:55:10 PM Close
Dear brother 'sharedconcept',

Quote:

"The only encouraging thing that came out of the whole thing was the feedback I received from so many believers.They were so gracious to send me a personal Email. I am glad they were able to respond from every continent."

That was indeed very interesting. You propagated about your discussion on this topic to many believers and they were gracious to send you emails! It is again, obvious, that you were doing it for self glory, and your calling for a debate is also for that purpose, I suppose!

"from every continent" O Lord! Unbelievable!!

Wish you all the best for a nice debate with a stake of $10000.00. Though I was not doing it for money, my efforts were worth getting 1/3rd of the staked claim. I consider you as defeated. If ever you graciously decide to give me 1/3rd of my share, please distribute that money among poor Christians in Karnataka on your name!

Thanks,
Ajax

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : greatlybeloved   View Profile   Since : 29 Jan 2006 4:09:20 PM Close
Dear Bro.Ajax & Bro.Sharedconcept,

Your discussion is getting interesting :-) I have few questions for Sharedconcept:

1. When you quoted 1Co 14:18, I see, it is taken out of context. Are you aware that Paul clearly stated NOT to speak in tongues IN THE CHURCH (Please read the next verse) because it does NOT edify others?

If you agree speaking in tongues IN THE CHURCH is unscriptural, and if you're only supporting speaking/praying in tongues when you're alone, let us know. It will make the discussion clear.
(FYI: I still dont agree the usage of tongues at all)

2. <<On the day of Pentacost, 120 at the upperoom spoke in tongues and "some, however, made fun of them and said, "they have had too much wine". The same mocking is going on for the last 2000 years>>

With above statement, you agree (and know) that some people UNDERSTOOD what they spoke, right? But you say, what you prayed/spoke in tongues, even you cannot understand? Dont your two statements show you as one who's similar to those "who made fun and had too much wine" (No offence meant brother)?

3. Are you aware in the scriptures, some commandments/promises are for Israel and some for the Church (and you cannot doctrinally mix up them both)? If yes, you know "law" was given to Israel? 1Co 14:21 says, "With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak UNTO THIS PEOPLE". And you know, "Tongues are for a sign", more over, NOT to them that believe but to them that believe not. And same Paul says "Jews require a sign" (1Co 1:22). With this isn't it clear that "tongues" are ONLY for non believing Jews?

And when you need to pray to God personally, the Lord gave a solution in Matthew 6:6. Simple, "enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly"

- John.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : greatlybeloved   View Profile   Since : 29 Jan 2006 4:35:42 PM Close
Dear Bro.Sharedconcept,

<<from now on, my participation in the thred would be minimal>>

Sorry, I didn't read your last post as my browser window was open since some time and I continued posting without refreshing.

If its tiring, you can ignore my questions.

- John.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : mangalam   View Profile   Since : 29 Jan 2006 4:59:04 PM Close
Ajax,

A number of us were really following on the discussion held about tongues. Are you a Christian? Do you have an ounce of the love of Christ inside you? Your comments are obnoxious.
I think you are posessed by the spirit of Anti-
Christ. Once in awhile we have to answer a fool acording to his folly. Do not rock the boat.
Let them proceed with the debate. 'A good name
is better than fine perfume'. I used ajax to clean my toilet bowel. Show kindness toward others. Show the love of Christ in your writing.

mangalam

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : ajax   View Profile   Since : 29 Jan 2006 9:08:37 PM Close
Dear Mangalam,

I am glad that one of the several useful and essential products of ‘Ajax’ were helpful in cleaning mess in your toilet bowl. I was trying to clean the mess caused by misguiding Pastors, who quote irrelevant verses or misinterpret the verses before the innocent audience for their own advantage. Christ never told us to speak or pray or worship in ‘tongues’, so I am Pro-Christ, but those voluntarily practice to talk ‘tongues’, which are not taught in the Bible, are… (What?) I do not know what to call them. If you know what to call them, you may call them, what you think is best.

Quote:

“Once in awhile we have to answer a fool acording to his folly”

Do you or do you not you think I have been trying to do that in the past few posts?

Ajax

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 6:32:30 AM Close
Dear Ajax

Thank you for your postings, God Bless you.

All of a sudden "mangalam" appeared with furious words, calling spirit of anti-christ, this is the act of an other tongues sayer. Your discussion with Sharedconcept was amicable, he is unable to answer your question that is why he is minimizing.

He is the one who is challenging Bro.GPK for a debate, what he is going to tell other than what he is posted here. On repeated request he is unable to reveal his identity, first he need to debate with his parents and educate them.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : greatlybeloved   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 7:27:44 AM Close
Dear Mangalam,

<<I think you are posessed by the spirit of Anti-
Christ>>
It is quite clear from his posts that Bro.Ajax is a born-again christian and Holy Spirit in-dwells in every one who accepts the Lord as their personal saviour.

Be cautious in passing comments on brethren, as what you said is no small thing. It is a "blasphemy against the Holy Ghost" and it "shall not be forgiven" (Mt 12:31)

- John.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : mangalam   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 9:59:05 AM Close
Sambudhanoor,

Quote:

"This is the act of an other tongue sayer"

How do you know that? You are speculating.

"First he need to debate with his parents and educate them"

What gives you the right to talk about an another
brothers prarents? We are all from Kerala and usually when someone does that, that calls for a fight. You have the making of a 'Test tube baby'

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 2:15:46 PM Close
Dear Readers,

I am continuing this discussion of "Other Tongue" on 'Other Tongue 3.'

shalom malekim!!!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : ajax   View Profile   Since : 30 Jan 2006 6:09:25 PM Close
Dear Brothers Sambudhanoor, and John (greatly belvoed).

Thank you for your compliments.

Ajax

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 31 Jan 2006 6:20:54 AM Close
Dear mangalam

This is the act of an other tongue sayer is a speculation only, your own words forced me to speculate.

Your remarks "I think you are posessed by the spirit of Anti-Christ." Is that speculative?

Debate with your parents and educate them is purely addressed to Sharedconcept not to you. Sharedconcpet revealed his parents are against the operation of Other Toungue in the present days.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 1 Feb 2006 11:55:20 AM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor,

My parents do speak in tongues. It was my grand father who was against it. He died in 1986.

sharedconcept

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 16 Feb 2006 12:26:09 AM Close
Dear Sharedconcept

As your parents and you are the other tongue sayers I believe you are from pentecostal chruch?

But you claimed to attend a bretheren assembly?

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 16 Feb 2006 4:34:37 PM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor,

If someone speaks in tongues, then are they immediately suppose to say good by to the Brethren assembly?. In terms of me being from the Pentacostal church, again, your are speculating. In just about every Brethren assembly, there are people who acknowledges all the spiritual gifts. That is a fact no one can deny. Your perception about these things are miles away from reality.

Sharedconcept

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 17 Feb 2006 1:29:02 AM Close
Dear Sharedconcept,

This is not speculation I wrote "I believe"
What is the truth?

Is your parents are in fellowship with a pentecostal assembly?

Are you in fellowship with a pentecostal assembly presently?

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 17 Feb 2006 1:48:16 AM Close
sambudhanoor,

No, my parents are at the Brethren assembly.

I am not a member with a Pentacostal assembly.
I don't think you need to do any more investigating on this matter anymore. Ok

Sharedconcept

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 20 Feb 2006 1:19:36 AM Close
Dear Sharedconcept

As you are unable to reveal the identity, it is an interest to investigate to know the truth, the purpose of the investigation if done is not to find out who you are or your parents, it is only related to the subject matter.

As far my knowledge, as a Brethren believer we are believing and practicing a set of doctrines as per the Word of God. We believe as per the Word of God Other tongue was a sign gift provided in the Apostolic era, for the foundational work of the Church is no more operational now. If anyone divert from that doctrine they leave the fellowship and join with others where they can see similarity of doctrine is practiced. I know some persons left brethren fellowship and joined with Pentecostal fellowship because of convenience.

In the same way I know some Pentecostal believers also left them because of doctrinal difference. A prominent one is Bro. VP Paulose, working as a brethren evangelist in Faridabad, Haryana. He born and brought up in a Church of God family his father was a Pastor, his elder brother is a Pastor. He is written a best book titled "MIRACULAOUS HEALING AND OTHER TONGUE"

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 22 Feb 2006 11:14:33 AM Close
Sambudhanoor,

I haven't left or for that matter come back. As I mentioned several times before, just because a person speaks in tongues, that does not mean that he is required to leave the Brethren assemly. There is a lot of things we cannot put out in the Website. Who knows, I have a pretty good feeling that some day you and I will meet face to face.

sharedconcept

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 23 Feb 2006 10:30:54 AM Close
It appears that 'sharedconcept' doesn't like to post any reply on 'Other tongue 3,' which is a continuation of 'Other tongue 2' - this thread.

I know another challenge to brother Sambudhanoor is coming soon. Read the last sentence of 'sharedconcept's' posting to Sambudhanoor, "Who knows, I have a pretty good feeling that some day you and I will meet face to face." I hope brother Sambudhanoor will ask for a higher fee, than I did.

"sharedconcept,' be a man. Try to answer my postings on 'Other Tongue 3.'

Shalom malekim!!!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 23 Feb 2006 11:03:39 AM Close
GPK,

I read your postings and I have to congragulate you on having the gift of "EZHUTHAPPURAM WAEKKUKA". When I said who knows we may very well
see face to face, It didn't have anything to do with debate. Just because I may not agree with someone, does that mean I am suppose to hate that
person?. You may vey well be like that. I am deeply disappinted in you due to the fact that
you posted a bill on the web with $350000. I wanted you one on one facing me on a stage with
camaras rolling. In that way those who won't be able to attend will be able to view us through DVD. Apparently, its not going to materialize.
BE A MAN and forget about demanding money from others. As long as the debate is prolonging, why bother to answer you. It has nothing to do with
manhood but everything to do with your attitude.
Oh, man of God.... ha ha...

sharedconcept

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sunilajoseph@aol.com   View Profile   Since : 23 Feb 2006 8:55:00 PM Close
gpk & sharedconcept,

Let me advice you two as a contributor. Don't talk about money matters. Somebody already told you to give them the money if you have, to distribute it to poor. Not to print gospel material. Please do that if you two have no objection.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : jmjohnson   View Profile   Since : 2 Mar 2006 10:03:25 AM Close
Dear Brothers and sisters,

What is going on here?. We are here discussing about some topic and going out of the subject and fighting each other. It is good to learn from Bible and we may have confusion/doubt? Lets try to understand it from the word of god. OR If it may not be much important for us to lead a holi life let us leave it. Such cases let us pray to god for guidance than arguement. For GOD anything is possible we are noone to judge. The GREAT GOD who created everything, he can do miracles even now. So let us look unto him rather than arguing on what we don't know and we not suppose to know

Johnson

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 2 Mar 2006 1:43:20 PM Close
'sharedconcept,'

On 23 Feb 2006 'sharedconcept' wrote, "I read your postings and I have to congragulate you on having the gift of "EZHUTHAPPURAM WAEKKUKA". When I said who knows we may very well
see face to face, It didn't have anything to do with debate. Just because I may not agree with someone, does that mean I am suppose to hate that
person?. You may vey well be like that. I am deeply disappinted in you due to the fact that
you posted a bill on the web with $350000. I wanted you one on one facing me on a stage with
camaras rolling. In that way those who won't be able to attend will be able to view us through DVD. Apparently, its not going to materialize."

When you challenged me for a debate in late November or early December 2005, it began as a desire to see me face to face in Kerala. When I replied that I have no desire to chase people around, then only you came out in public and told that your intent was to have a debate in Kerala. Now you are expressing a desire to meet Sambudhanoor face to face. So, I told Sambudhanoor that you are in a path to challenge him for a debate.

As usual, you accused me of, "you posted a bill on the web with $350000." This is another falsification of facts. I never did what you accused me of. Where did I do this? Don't be carried away with your desires to sling mud on others. You should at least be truthful to make factual statements. This statement of yours indicates that you have over 10% of error rate in your reading comprehension.

Shalom malekim!!!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sharedconcept   View Profile   Since : 3 Mar 2006 7:06:31 PM Close
GPK,

You did posted a bill for $315000.00 and it was
itamized. I no longer could find it in the thred.
Do not deny it. Those who tell lies will be thrown into the lake of fire.

sharedconcept

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 3 Mar 2006 7:37:31 PM Close
'sharedconcept,'

Let me help you. Why are you not posting these on the thread, "Other Tongue 3?" To help you further, I am answering the rest on that thread.

Shalom malekim!!!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 22 Mar 2006 7:56:47 AM Close
There is a good FREE book available on the subject matter Other Tongue.

“Other tongue in the first century and present century”
Written by Bro. James Samuel.

Address:
P. James Samuel,
Thondiyattu House,
Kallisery P.O. – 689 124.

But the requester need to bear the postal expenses.

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 19 Jun 2006 5:53:40 AM Close
Dear Brs,

EXISTANCE OF FAKE CURRENCY IS THE PROOF OF GOOD CURRENCY. NOBODY MAKES RS 25/- FAKE NOTES FOR THIS REASON. WHY EVERYBODY CRIES WHAT SOMEBODY SPEAKS IS FAKE???!!

JUST THINK.

GOD BLESS


Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : sajimaniyatt   View Profile   Since : 20 Jun 2006 6:28:32 AM Close
1 Cori 13: 9 and 10
Some people have interpreted the "that which is perfect" of this verse as being the completed Bible. This has led them to believe that the gifts of the Spirit spoken of here (i.e. prophecy and tongues) have ceased. Although God's Word is perfect (Ps. 19:7), that cannot be the "perfect thing" that is spoken of here.

In verse 12, Paul said when that which is perfect is come, we shall see face to face. This is speaking of seeing the Lord face to face, instead of vaguely as though through a dark glass, as it is now. Some might argue that this is speaking in a symbolic sense instead of literally face to face. But the next comparison in the 12th verse says that then (when that which is perfect is come) we shall know all things even as we are also known. There is no other way to interpret that, except to be describing when we stand before the Lord, after this life. Then we will be face to face and know all things even as also we are known.

Verse 8 also says that at the time prophecies fail and tongues cease, knowledge will vanish away. That has to be talking about the next life, or the new heavens and earth, because one of the signs of the end times will be that knowledge shall increase (Dan. 12:4).

So the "that which is perfect" that Paul is speaking of cannot be the Bible. It has to be speaking of either our glorified body, or Jesus at His second coming. Either way, these verses establish that until that which is perfect is come, tongues and prophecy will remain. These are valid gifts today and operating by Church (not by any denomination) all over the world who believes.

God Bless

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page

Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 20 Jun 2006 8:51:19 AM Close
Dear 'sajimaniyatt,'

I don't know why you don't want to post on "Other Tongue 3," which is the continuation of this thread?

Your points on the postings above are already dealt with in other threads. Please read them, before posting it as new.

If you have anything to contribute, please do so in "Other Tongue 3."

Shalom malekim!!!

Go to top of the page
Go to bottom of the page


Post reply Here

please login to continue..

Registered Users, Login below:

Username Password
Problem Login?

New User? Register Now

Forgot User Name or Password? Click Here

Go to top of the page

All times are GMT -5 Hours
Forums Home ::
© 2019 Sansnet.com



HOME
Back to Top