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# 01306 :  Hinduism: A Correction
My Esteemed friend Dr. George P. Koshy has made some remarks in WHO GOES TO HELL? which can create grave misunderstanding among uninformed Christians. This thread will try to correct those misunderstandings, and will be open for questions after that. Kindly remember that my statements about Vedas, Upanishads, and other Hindu books come from a direct reading and not from second-hand sources. Sanskrit is my second language (Hindi is the first language) and I did my first reading of all Vedas, Upanishads, and other relevant books when I was in the 9th standard (1968), and I read them in Sanskrit. So here is the correction, lest believers misunderstand things:
Post by : drjcp  View Profile    since : 27 Jun 2007


Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 27 Jun 2007 11:23:09 PM Close
If anyone erroneously got the wrong impression that one can look for Holy Spirit inspired statements outside the Bible, then here is what the Scripture says:

Psa 147:19 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel.
Psa 147:20 He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD.

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Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 27 Jun 2007 11:26:35 PM Close
Dr. Koshy wrote

<<Poorvadyaksh Anubhavanand Kesav Ray Sharma, a teacher of Rig Veda, wrote about the nine requirements for the Prajapathi Balidan as found in Rid Veda.>>

Unfortunately this is a myth. The whole story about this Kesava Ray Sharma is a myth, perpetuated by people who repeat this story in good faith. The tract was written by some clever and Christians and it was a big deception and cheating.

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Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 27 Jun 2007 11:53:42 PM Close
<<the nine requirements for the Prajapathi Balidan as found in Rid Veda>>

This is a BIG myth and lie perpetrated by some Christian cheats around 1930. The Rigveda does not mention even one of these nine things.

<<1. The Prajapathi for the sacrifice must be sinless.>>

NOT found anywhere in the Rigveda, or in any of the four Vedas.

<<2. When sacrifice is being performed, Prajapathi must wear a crown.>>

NOT found anywhere in the Rigveda, or in any of the four Vedas.

3. This sacrifice must be conducted on its <<altar.>>


NOT found anywhere in the Rigveda, or in any of the four Vedas.

<<4. Prajapathi must be bound on its four limbs>>

NOT found anywhere in the Rigveda, or in any of the four Vedas.

<<5. The cloths of the Prajapathi must be divided to four who perform this sacrifice.>>

NOT found anywhere in the Rigveda, or in any of the four Vedas.

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Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 28 Jun 2007 3:15:35 AM Close
<<6. Prajapathi’s bones should not be broken.>>
NOT found anywhere in the Rigveda, or in any of the four Vedas.

<<7. Prajapathi should drink vinegar (samaras) while on the altar.>>
NOT found anywhere in the Rigveda, or in any of the four Vedas.

<<8. Prajapathi must resurrect from among the dead, after his death on the altar.>>
NOT found anywhere in the Rigveda, or in any of the four Vedas.

<<9. Prajapathi’s flesh must be eaten.>>NOT found anywhere in the Rigveda, or in any of the four Vedas.

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Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 28 Jun 2007 4:35:19 AM Close
Kindly remember that starting from the Vedas the Hindus have somewhere between 18,000 to 24,000 holy scriptures. Not a single one of them have any quotation mentioned above, or any statement related to Christ.

I am open to your questions now

Johnson C. Philip

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 28 Jun 2007 6:40:16 AM Close
Thanks Dr.JCP for your posts. Whether or not they are there in the Veda's, I care the least. For we read in the Bible that the Oracles were committed to the Jews (Romans 3), and we read salvation is of the Jews.

As a child, I had heard the following verse which I remember by heart. It sounds more like literary Telugu and I don't know if it's Sanskrit...

Sarva paapa pariharo raktha prokshanamavashyakam
Tath rakhtham paramaathmena punya daana baliyaagam

This was how it was interpreted by those I heard..

For the remission of the sins of all, blood should be sprinkled

god himself should give his blood as a holy sacrifice

I suspect that the second line could mean,

That blood should be given in holy sacrifice to god himself.

If the second line is interpreted as I thought, then that sloka is a mere statement of the practice of sacrifices and shedding of blood for sins which is prevalent in many cultures.

In Christ Jesus,
Moses LemuelRaj

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Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 28 Jun 2007 8:37:15 AM Close
Dear Brother

you have given the correct interpretation of the second line.

I suspect that it is not a sloka from any Hindu scriptures, but rather that it was contrived by some Christians. Roman Catholics are said to have "discovered" even a fifth veda.

Johnson C. Philip

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 28 Jun 2007 10:36:29 AM Close
Dear DRJCP,

This is a question of interest because of the fact that Dr. Radhakrisnan knew the Vedas. He was a renowned Hindu philosopher. He wrote a commentary on Upanishads. Once I read good portions of this multiple volume work.

I personally heard him say that Prajapathy Sacrifice is the only way for salvation of man. He continued to say that the Vedas say how this salvation could be attained, but do not say who that Prajapathi is. He added that the Bible says who that Prajapathi is, the Lord Jesus Christ. In effect this was his concluding remarks of a speech he gave at the University College, Thiruvandapuram, on 1961 December or 1962 January.

That is why I wrote what I wrote. My question to you is this: Could you give any reason for me not to blieve what he said? I am not asking you to discredit or credit any.

I ask this question in the light that a Christian made up a story about Charles Darwin and Lady White. Now we know that it was a hoax. In this case I heard it from Dr. Radhakrishnan.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 28 Jun 2007 12:21:59 PM Close
Yes, brother the Charles Darwin story was definitely made up, but this one is not.

<<That is why I wrote what I wrote. My question to you is this: Could you give any reason for me not to blieve what he said? I am not asking you to discredit or credit any.>>

Here is the reason:

1. I have read all the four Vedas from cover to cover. More than ten times each. These readings were from time to time in Sanskrit, Hindi, English, and Malayalam. I could not find these quotations. (I possessed a massive library of Hindu scriptures, built up over 40 years in North India).

2. All Prajapati writers quote from each other and not from Vedas. Not a single one has produced a single references in response to private or public demands for reference.

3. Vishawa Hindu Parishad demanded that Dr. Koshy Abarham (the greatest proponent of Prajapati) produce these quotations. He wrote an entire book ended up as much as saying that these quotations do not exist.

By the way, about 8 years ago I published a 480 page research monograph on Prajapti and Christ in Malayalam. It is gradually being released as PDF Ebooks in English.

I appreciate your spirit of inquiry. Do tell me if any other area needs clarification from me.

Johnson C. Philip

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Reply by : observer   View Profile   Since : 28 Jun 2007 7:24:00 PM Close
Thank you very much dear Johnson C Philip. I have read these theories before and along the same lines of Moses L, even if it is in Vedas, I care less because revelation of Jesus Christ is only in Bible. My simple faith! Anyone who holds the Vedas and bring philosophies like this, I just group them as cults or their ignorance. But your post has made my faith stronger and have clear first hand information. Once again thank God for you to defend the simple faith and we don’t need any Vedas or other books to prove it.
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Reply by : tjs2   View Profile   Since : 28 Jun 2007 10:21:25 PM Close
Dear Dr. JCP
Thank you for clearing the muddle.We Malayalees have been brainwashed from this hearsay doctrine of Prajapathy.Millions of people have been saved through out the world with out the help of the Vedas. Bible is sufficient and efficient to save the world.Please publish your "Prajapathy " book in english.God doesn't need human help to validate the truth.May Our Lord Bless you abunduntly to continue to contribute in this forum.
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Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 29 Jun 2007 9:22:45 AM Close
Dear Observer, thanks for your observation that my post helped you to become stronger in your faith.

Dear TJS2, my Prajapati book will shortly start appearing in English PDF. Keep an eye upon www.free-cds.org or www.BrethrenAssembly.Com where it will be distributed free

Let me remind you brethren once again, not a single quotation mentioned above is found in the four Vedas or 108 Upanishads.

Johnson C. Philip

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Reply by : elf_asura   View Profile   Since : 30 Jun 2007 3:26:45 AM Close
I deeply appreciate JCP's clarification on that Prajapati HOAX. I
didnt want to make that statement on the original thread because I
thought I would get more brickbats from George Koshy.
But this is an excellent clarification and timely!!!!
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Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 30 Jun 2007 5:24:26 AM Close
Thank you Asura for your response. I thought you were not going to have anything with my logical presentations.

Anyway, this brief response three sentences from you has made me guess (based upon a certain branch of textual criticism) that you are not a Hindu, but probably a Brethren young man, and that also a Malayalee.

Johnson C. Philip

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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 30 Jun 2007 5:44:58 AM Close
Dear Dr.Johnson in Christ,

Thank you dear brother for unvieling certain hidden information. As mentioned by one of the members of this thread wrote about this particular term (prajapathi)is used repeatedly in Gospel messages(conventions) by renowned speakers of brethren assemblies in India, and I hope many a times you might have also shared the dias with them, Have you any time pointed out thier mistakes in comparing our savior with the prajapathi if the vedaas

Yours in Christ
Samuel.V.J

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Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 1 Jul 2007 8:30:07 AM Close
Dear Brother Samuel

About 8 years ago I had written a series of articles and one massive book on this topic. After that practically no one in the assemblies has openly used the name of Prajapati or this concept.

Even non Brethren writers like Dr. Koshy Abraham, Arvindaksha Menon, and Dr. Joseph Padinjarekkara lost their book-market on this topic when Christian booksellers in Kerala (in response to my writings) refused to stock these books.

If you have any other questions on this topic you are welcome to ask.

Johnson C. Philip

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Reply by : wilson609   View Profile   Since : 1 Jul 2007 9:31:27 AM Close
dear bro jcp
thanks for clearing the mess of this prajapathi hoax
wilson
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Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 1 Jul 2007 11:51:36 AM Close
Thanks brother Wilson.

There is a lot more to write on this topic, but I will do so only if anyone wishes to ask anything.

Johnson C. Philip

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Reply by : elf_asura   View Profile   Since : 1 Jul 2007 11:14:20 PM Close
Dear JCP -
It's not that I didn't want to respond to logical presentations. It is the kind of "aggro" that I encountered on this forum from when I joined that made me pause.
There seems to be a tendency on this forum to "label" and "categorise" (which in itself is good if one knows how to label and categorise) and then to attack without having any idea as to who is putting up a question or putting up information.
That seems to me an illogical way of proceeding to enter into "dialogue".
Further, I found it amusing that a man called TomJ believes the resurrection or Virgin birth and such things are not "illogical" (something I had pointed out) and then he further extended his argument to maligning me by stating that I do not believe in the resurrection.
How did he come to that conclusion? It is possible for me to believe in the resurrection well knowing that it breaks the rules/norms of "logic". The poor man does not understand such things and ends up with foot in the mouth disease!
So I have preferred being "provocative" with people who attack me personally instead of engaging in a quiet dialogue with such people (even provocative blows to and fro are a form of DIALOGUE!!!)
However, I do not think I am ill-informed or dumb and I prefer to discuss matters without entering into personal quarrels. However, I do not believe in submission and if someone attacks me personally I will give it back in the same coin whether they like it or not. I do not like being attacked personally but they must also get a taste of the medicine they hand out!!! LOL


Ciao!

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Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 2 Jul 2007 10:28:31 AM Close
Dear Asura

thanks for the note. However, what others did in no way answers why you did not want to enter into a dialog with me.

Second, I am amused to hear that Virgin Birth is an illogical concept. Pray tell me what the logical reason is behind this stand.

Johnson C. Philip

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Reply by : elf_asura   View Profile   Since : 3 Jul 2007 4:50:40 AM Close
Dear JCP-
When you speak of Logic do you speak of "Logic" or "Christian Logic"?
I think it makes a difference where one is coming from when discussing Logic itself as a starting point?
Adjectives matter.
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Reply by : observer   View Profile   Since : 3 Jul 2007 8:21:36 AM Close
In my opinion, there is only ‘logic’. If we try to define ‘Christian Logic’, then everything in this world could be defined under some logic. Dear Johnson C Philip you said “I am amused to hear that Virgin Birth is an illogical concept”. This is what I understand from logical “based on facts, clear rational thought, and sensible reasoning” from msn dictionary. So going by that virgin birth is not logical. Yes I do believe, just my simple faith in Bible, which is beyond logical reasoning.
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Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 3 Jul 2007 8:42:48 AM Close
Dear Asura

there is only one kind of logic for me.

Dear observer, thanks for your comment. Your observation is contrary to observation.

If you or Asura wants a logical discussion, then I will start a thread in the Moderated Forum. If not, it is up to you.

Let me reiterate, there is only one kind of logic in the world -- formal logic. A topic I love. Even today I purchased a book on this topic.

Do not blame me just because either of you has a disagreement with others on this forum. Engage in a logical discussion of you guys really mean what you say.

Johnson C. Philip

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Reply by : observer   View Profile   Since : 3 Jul 2007 10:36:53 AM Close
Thanks for your reply. I would like to hear from you, but why not in this forum. I would request to start a thread in this forum itself.
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Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 3 Jul 2007 12:21:05 PM Close
Dear Observer,

why not in this forum but in the moderated forum?? Well that is my personal preference -- I mean if I am to indulge in a discussion.

Johnson C. Philip

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Reply by : observer   View Profile   Since : 3 Jul 2007 12:47:11 PM Close
All right, thanks!
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Reply by : elf_asura   View Profile   Since : 3 Jul 2007 11:48:22 PM Close
Dear JCP
I too wonder why the discussion should be in a "moderated" forum. I think it should be in the public forum.
So would you sacrifice your "personal preference" for a "formal" logical discussion in this forum on another thread?
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Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 4 Jul 2007 12:40:07 AM Close
Asura

you have been crying foul against TomJ and GPK and many others that they are pouncing upon you. In a moderated from, a newbie is protected by the moderator. This facility was offered to you. You do not want to use it.

Moderated from is a public forum. It is accessible to all.

There is not conflict between personal preference and logic. You are comparing apples with mangoes.

By now it is obvious to me that you DO NOT want an honest discussion. You are giving the slip whenever you are offered a chance for honest discussion.

Johnson C. Philip

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Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 4 Jul 2007 12:44:22 AM Close
TO All the pacifists on this forum:

Brethren, many of you had grievances against Dr. George P. Koshy and TomJ (and some others) that they are pouncing upon newbies in this forum. Many of you felt that the problem was with the older hands on this forum.

Respecting your collective opinion, I offered moderation to Asura. In a moderated form the moderator would use his whip if a newbie complains that he is being harassed. This offer has repeatedly been given to Asura. Each time he is slipping away from this offer.

Thus I conclude that Asura is NOT interested in an honest discussion, and that he has been crying foul against GPK, TomJ, and others because this is his main aim -- to cry foul against all and sundry, and not to discuss anything in a meaningful manner.

In other words, all of you who have been requesting for kindness and patience have been defending a guy who "looks" totally dishonest to me by his conduct so far. I mean he demands fairness, you guys demand fairness, but he rejects an opportunity for fairness when it is offered to him.

Thus my dear friends, kindly keep away your sentimentality. Instead of demanding kindness and civility, which has been offered, ask Asura to use the opportunity before he crises "Tiger ..."

Johnson C. Philip

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Reply by : elf_asura   View Profile   Since : 4 Jul 2007 2:50:01 AM Close
So JCP
this is your new "tactic" - what you and tomj and others are looking for are COOKED UP ALLEGATIONS (trying to FRAME A PERSON)to show me in a bad light. It is a useful tactic but one used by COWARDS.
If you be men - BAN ME!
The hawks would then win over the DOVES.
So be it!
You cant fool me by these tactics. They expose you and not me!
It is MY CHOICE where I choose to debate - that is the classical position on debates throughout the ages. It is not your choice.
If you do not want me to debate out in the open, because you FEAR ME and you FEAR OTHERS BEING INFLUENCED BY MY POINTS, then BAN ME!
It is FEAR that compels you to resort to this sort of subterfuge.
I am familiar with it in the corporate world and in the world of religion and especially in tiny little fundamentalist groups.
It is easy to recognise these "tricks", which you might think are "godly" but are actually "subtle".
Now the subtlest beast of the earth was the Serpent!
AND JCP
My counter-challenge is meet me in the OPEN FORUM FOR DEBATE.
The Philistines fought David in an open space. Not a hidden moderated forum.
Meet me in the OPEN FORUM.
Let your henchmen look upon the battle!
Make sure the four "brothers" of Goliath are beside him when you come to battle in the OPEN.
And I offer you the gentlemanly option:
BAN ME and FLEE!
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Reply by : job15   View Profile   Since : 4 Jul 2007 3:58:06 AM Close
'elf_asura',

Use the moderated forum to prove your point instead of running away from the discussion with 'drjcp'.


Job

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Reply by : talmid   View Profile   Since : 4 Jul 2007 4:03:37 AM Close
Why can't the point be proved in a public forum? I still don't get it.
Asura is moderator in moderated forum EQUALS no moderation EQUALS public forum
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Reply by : elf_asura   View Profile   Since : 4 Jul 2007 6:12:01 AM Close
Job
what makes you think I should take your advice?
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Reply by : job15   View Profile   Since : 4 Jul 2007 6:25:51 AM Close
What makes you think that others think like you?

Job

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Reply by : elf_asura   View Profile   Since : 4 Jul 2007 6:28:40 AM Close
I don't expect them to Job, but many want me to think like them!!!! Contradictory huh?
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Reply by : elf_asura   View Profile   Since : 4 Jul 2007 6:30:43 AM Close
Job,
are you part of the JCP bandwagon? If so, I can ignore your posts. If you are an individual with his or her own position, I don't have a problem in responding. But if you are doing some sort of secretarial task for JCP, you know, being that "non-pacifist", well, don't waste my time. I don't like and I don't fear "gangs", that's like a teenage angsty thing, don't you think?
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Reply by : job15   View Profile   Since : 4 Jul 2007 8:51:46 AM Close
'elf_asura',

You can have the discussion with 'drjcp' on the moderated forum.

Be mature in your converstaion.

Job

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Reply by : jay   View Profile   Since : 4 Jul 2007 9:16:23 AM Close
Let me be clear that as a Christian I believe in the fact of the virgin birth and resurrection of Jesus Christ. However, I don't believe that the scriptures anywhere teach that these events are "logical" or in any way historically provable. These are notions that come out of reading too much Josh McDowell and not the Bible. Denying the "logical necessity" or provability of these events is not akin to denying the events themselves. It is a criticism of a particularly vacuous brand of Christian apologetics whose major exponents include Francis Schaeffer, Norman Geisler and William Lane Craig whose value in our day and age is questoinable at best.

Now as for the Prajapati "controversy" the way the criticisms are framed demonstrate the eccentricities of Brethren dispensationalist interpretations of prophecy which reduce the prophetic canon to soothsaying. Whether or not the Vedas possess some kind of vision of Jesus Christ, Christians from the time of Paul's Mars Hill sermon have been calling attention to the shadows of Christ that are present in many cultural and even religious traditions. Whatever Dr. Johnsons' objections may be, several of the leading exponents of modern Hinduism (Ramakrishna, Vivekananda, Ghosh etc) recognized the presence of pointers and indicators to Jesus Christ within their own tradition.

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Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 4 Jul 2007 9:37:38 AM Close
Dear Asura

it is obvious that you are running away from an open and honest discussion. Your postings (using more than one name, which can be verified by an IP check) shows that you have not come here for honest discussion.

There are enough postings for anyone to see that I did not attack Asura. After he evaded me for days, I very clearly labeled him as evasive.

Let me also remind you: you have challenged me several times, but I do not accept challenges. It is fools who get into duels and who invite others to duels. I indulge only in discussions.

Let me also remind you Asura that people like George Koshy and TomJ, against whom you keep writing, have NO problem and NO fear of the moderator. They freely discuss things in the moderated forum. Only you have shown a fear for logical and open discussion in the Moderated Forum.

This is to say Bye to you.

Johnson C. Philip

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Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 4 Jul 2007 9:52:15 AM Close
Dear Jay

virgin birth may not look logical to you. But this does not automatically prove that it is indeed illogical.

Have you met that schoolboy who was unable to solve a mathematical problem. So he came to the solution that the problem was unsolvable.

If you are serious about a discussion on these topics, come to the Moderated forum.

Johnson C. Philip

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Reply by : talmid   View Profile   Since : 4 Jul 2007 8:56:32 PM Close
Dear Jay, Yes it is not logical. You are correct in that. It does not belong to the realm of logic. Yet many get faith to believe in that.
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Reply by : elf_asura   View Profile   Since : 5 Jul 2007 4:47:10 AM Close
I will ignore Job's propensity to advice others on behalf of JCP.
Jay - you're a breath of fresh air!!!!
You put across what I wanted to but then I didn't not out of fear but because I would have been shot down without a trial!
<<These are notions that come out of reading too much Josh McDowell and not the Bible. Denying the "logical necessity" or provability of these events is not akin to denying the events themselves.>>
Exactly where I am coming from!
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Reply by : jay   View Profile   Since : 5 Jul 2007 8:57:30 AM Close
Dear Bro Johnson,

I'm not sure how to get to the moderated forum so I'm replying to you here. The issue for me is not the logic/illogic of the virgin birth and resurrection. I'm just drawing attention to the fact that the scriptures do not speak in this way about these events.

In fact the scriptures describe these events as wonders and as signs from God. In our post-Enlightenment language we might call them "miracles" ( a description which is quite distinct from the way the Bible chooses to describe these as signs and wonders) but then to take this as far down the road as people like McDowell do and claim that you can "prove" the historical factuality (in a secular framework) of these events is really a misrepresentation of scripture. That's all I'm saying.

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Reply by : jay   View Profile   Since : 5 Jul 2007 8:58:10 AM Close
Thanks Asura - keep writing!
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Reply by : drjcp   View Profile   Since : 5 Jul 2007 10:08:43 AM Close
Dear Jay

I am already having a discussion on the moderated forum on "Software Piracy and Believers"

You can reach there by logging to www.Brethren.in

A registration is needed, exactly the way it is needed here.

Moderated forum is part of this KeralaBrethren site, and a lot of serious discussion takes place there

Johnson C. Philip
www.Sarathi.info

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