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# 01385 :  ornaments & movies
Why are the today Brethren neutral regarding wearing ornaments and seeing movies?
Post by : stanley1  View Profile    since : 15 Sep 2007


Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 15 Sep 2007 9:00:31 AM Close
Dear "stanley1"in Christ,

Increase in prosperity and lack in spirituality, and expecting our Savior second coming not so soon.


Yours in Christ
Samuel.V.J

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Reply by : george.p.alexander   View Profile   Since : 15 Sep 2007 9:30:13 AM Close
Probably it's because there's a lot of hypocrisy flying around - we preach and claim "no ornaments" and find it hard to fellowship with others of such but it's okay to havy flashy life styles that includes the adorning of gold watches, clothes, etc..etc. We preach and claim "no theater" but it's okay to watch movies and other programs in the privacy of your home.

This hypocrisy won't stand any longer especially with younger ones who can (rightly) discern between people who preach and people who practice what they preach.

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Reply by : sam48   View Profile   Since : 16 Sep 2007 7:45:01 AM Close
Our forefathers left all and came out for Jesus Christ,and now since that vision is lost,we are just like (most of them) others taking back left by our fore fathers, good grief.
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Reply by : joyboy   View Profile   Since : 16 Sep 2007 4:48:58 PM Close
here we go again!

Seriously though. Wouldn't it be wiser to teach our assemblies discernment instead of outright bans on certain behaviours?

If going to a movie will cause problem in your assembly, then don't go. If seeing a movie will cause someone to stumble, then don't watch it.

If the content of a particular movie is bad, then avoid it.

What use is an outright legalistic ban? Entertainment is one of those things that are so hard to define in one all-encompassing rule.

In addition, we lose credibility if we ban movies. For we are hypocritic if we are not consistent. For example, if we ban movies, then we should ban television. If we ban television, we should ban reading fiction. If we ban reading fiction, then we should ban english class in school.

Do you see how silly this is?

Instead of outright bans, we should be teaching discernment.

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Reply by : mom23   View Profile   Since : 16 Sep 2007 6:53:34 PM Close
Here is another thought.....I know there was a time when believers left everything, ornaments etc. with a need to be more attached to spiritual growth. But you see this was something they believed in.It was their decision. As time trickled down, I don't think the reason/importance etc. has been explained to the coming generations in such a way that they too will accept that way of life....so when you don't have the same convictions, you won't follow it.
Other factors have creeped in...getting a better education, getting a better job, getting a better lifestyle etc...everybody is under pressure to be acheivers, to have an identity....slowly but surely, by acheiving these goals, over a period of time, we blend in, we compromise, we confirm...to what is going on around us.
We do not stand out in anyway....with our choices, with our lifestyles, with our ideas etc. We give this unspoken lesson to the next generation and they take it from there.

Like the brothers mentioned in the previous posts, we may chose to ban this or that...
So you see, if you tell your child "you cannot go to the movies" but you rent one for him/her or let them watch it on television...it sounds like hypocrisy to them...an absolute mixed message of what is expected of a child of God, and they will never be able to give a convincing testimony to any of their peers who ask them "why they cannot go to the movies?".

This is actually a matter we need to think about and pray about for our next generation...what are the messages we, as parents, are truly teaching/giving these souls the Lord has entrusted with ? A preacher to day at church said a very important point..
"Our life, the choices we make as individuals, as families, the things we give importance to at the end of the day, is a TRUE sign of our walk with our Lord..our life should speak, should evangelise for us to all who see it."

We need to pray and evangelize now more to our educated members than before, if we need change. This is just a thought though....

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Reply by : kurienjohn   View Profile   Since : 24 Sep 2007 6:19:43 AM Close
Mom23 puts things sometimes in an interesting way but still she avoids the dangerous "edge" of the issue. Who says that going to the movies is evil? How does one come to such a conclusion? I lecture in places where audio-visual/net media education is the norm. I show students and managers films (many are explicit in content and form). Students increasingly live in a visual culture and learn from visual sources. It is typical Brethren hypocrisy to rent dvds and watch them at home while avoiding going to the theatres and forbidding children and youth from doing so. But are the young people to run away from the 21st century which is technological and visual? The key lies in bringing the truth of the gospel in a way that meets the needs of the young people - and perhaps the key lies in a section in Hebrews that points to the ability of a believer to "have the senses exercises so as to be able to differentiate and choose between good and evil." Much of the crisis in present day Brethrenism is due to the fact that abstention is considered better than temperance or the ability to have the senses exercised to discern. When there is nobody to teach the young ones such skills, there can only be emptiness.
John Kurien
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Reply by : mom23   View Profile   Since : 24 Sep 2007 1:46:43 PM Close
aaah! Bro.John K., I wasn't trying to say that abstaining from things like "going to the movies" was the way to go. I think it is a very immature stand on things. So,you have a generation of youngsters who just refuse to follow the "old fashioned notions" and "rebel", as the older folks say.
I have asked lots of people why do they say you can't go the movies, but you can watch it at home or rent one etc.?...I have never got a convincing answer to it. But I never came across "thinking" youngsters who adhered to that rule or any such rule that had confusions of culture mixed in.
(I emphasize the "thinking" because I have come across the other types too....I don't quite have a diplomatic word for them...)

I have seen parents who though take their kids to certain movies or rent it at home, sit through the movie with them...talk to them about it,encourage them to tell their views, tell them why some ideas that are projected in the movie is not the attitude of a child of God for this and this reason etc. I have seen such kids growing up with a good sense of the scriptures..."the living" like a child of God, inspite of various temptations,(which is not to be confused by the "attend every meeting, so am holy" life) why certain things are not right or "cool" even if they are projected as being that way by the world. The same thing with books they read etc. This certainly takes a lot of time and effort on the parents' part, but so worth it, don't you think ?
I know the other argument of "they don't have to see it in the first place.." but that is an "ostrich sticking it's head in the sand" attitude...you know hoping it all just blows away. In today's world, like you said Bro.John, it is a world of visual aid...you have to take the time and effort to help them discern "the wheat from the chaff" and equip them scripturally and spiritually how to live as soldiers of Christ....that is an awesome responsibility and so few of us realize it's true importance....we are so carried away by their secular today !!

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Reply by : mom23   View Profile   Since : 24 Sep 2007 1:50:05 PM Close
By the way dear bro.John K. what "dangerous edge" of the issue am I missing ? I just wanted to know for curiosity's sake...coz maybe I did miss something???

Judy.

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Reply by : godly1   View Profile   Since : 24 Sep 2007 3:03:14 PM Close
What the Scripture says on wearing ORNAMENTS, Visit Now: http://www.bahrainbrethren.com/media.php?action=cat&catid=3, 24 hrs online......

God Bless

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Reply by : kurienjohn   View Profile   Since : 25 Sep 2007 2:51:50 AM Close
Sister Judy wrote:
<<<I have seen parents who though take their kids to certain movies or rent it at home, sit through the movie with them...talk to them about it, encourage them to tell their views, tell them why some ideas that are projected in the movie is not the attitude of a child of God for this and this reason etc. <<<
This is the "dangerous edge" of which I was speaking and with you reply it seems clear to me that you are willing to take what others see as a "dangerous road". But you have obviously seen that it works if one depends on the Lord Jesus for it to succeed. This is what I believe and practice too.
God bless.
John Kurien
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Reply by : mom23   View Profile   Since : 25 Sep 2007 11:46:51 AM Close
Whew!! Glad at least you got my point, bro.John K., without misunderstanding it ...
I have always liked to test new grounds...sometimes it maybe good, if not no harm, pick yourself up, learn from the experience and move on..right??
Take care.

Judy.

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Reply by : aman   View Profile   Since : 25 Sep 2007 12:25:58 PM Close
stanley1;

You have to love Jesus over your worldly relations

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Reply by : kurienjohn   View Profile   Since : 26 Sep 2007 2:14:35 AM Close
Dear Judy
You warm my heart with your openness. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Test new ground trusting in Jesus so that you wont slip up and if you do, pick yourself up and walk again. Jesus brings joy and He brings a tremendous liberty from legalism and doctrinal hang-ups. Isn't that why my heart keeps singing within me? I am sure it does work that way for you too.
One of my favorite books is The Pilgrim's Progress. Have you read it recently? It speaks of all the experiences one has to go through so that one can become tested and refined and happy and liberated from the power of sin in the flesh.
God bless
John Kurien
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Reply by : stanley1   View Profile   Since : 30 Sep 2007 11:25:18 AM Close
John Kurien says When there is nobody to teach the young ones such skills, there can only be emptiness. I would like to know which skills and how can those skills be taught? Don't you think that exercising the senses may damage the senses? Was eve not exercising her senses?
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Reply by : trds   View Profile   Since : 2 Oct 2007 12:07:31 PM Close

Pastor John Kurien of http://www.epcchicago.org believes on his web page under the heading "We Believe" and under the sub-heading "Baptism in water after repentance" that "All who repent and believe in Christ as their Savior and Lord are to be baptized after have they removed all their ornaments (Matthew 28:19; mark 16:16; Acts 10:47, 48; Romans 6:4: Job 22:23-28; James 5:3; Ezekiel 23:39-41)." and under,

"Baptism in the Holy Spirit" it reads,

"All believers are entitled to and should ardently expect and seek to fill in the Holy Spirit. The baptism of believers in the Holy spirit is evidenced by speaking in other tongues (other languages) as the Spirit of God gives utterance (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:4,8; 1 Corinthians 12:1-31; Acts 10:44-46; Acts 15:7-9)."

I was wondering if it is a requirement to remove the ornaments before a saved person is baptized.


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Reply by : mom23   View Profile   Since : 2 Oct 2007 12:14:56 PM Close
Is it the same person though ?? I know 2 other people with the same name...
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Reply by : trds   View Profile   Since : 2 Oct 2007 1:38:08 PM Close

Pastor John Kurien is the same person as seen on http://www.epcchicago.org I don't think he would post other man's picture on that web site. All I was wondering was that -- is it a requirement for a saved person to remove ornaments, I mean, discard totally, before he is baptized.

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Reply by : Varghese   View Profile   Since : 2 Oct 2007 3:18:13 PM Close
The topic on “Ornaments” has already been discussed in some previous threads. Please take a look at these previous discussions.

Personally, the removal of ornaments as a requirement of baptism is not scriptural. It is only a personal choice and not be imposed by others. A personal preference should not be elevated to a doctrine!

God Bless!

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Reply by : kurienjohn   View Profile   Since : 3 Oct 2007 12:05:10 AM Close
Eve was exercising her intellect and the doubting that accompanies intellectual activity and not her senses. When the intellect and doubt combine to doubt the "spirit" of God's Word, then sensuality results. It was after an intellectual doubt in God's word was sown that Eve "saw that the fruit was good" - the movement from intellectual doubt to sensuality became a completed cycle. And then death set in.
However, God has now made it possible for even doubters to come to faith. This is revealed in how Jesus treated his disciples who were very aware of their lack of faith (in His Word) and wanted it increased and so also His treatment of "doubting" Thomas, who was not cast out but enabled to be of faith.
John Kurien
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