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# 01387 :  When Did the Gift of 2nd Tongues Begin?
I am repeating my question from the other thread to consider when was the 2nd tongue, meant only for private edification, gifted to the church.

Everyone agree that the original gift of tongue which was given on the day of Pentecost, sensible and clear to everyone, has ceased. It was given for common good and everyone could “hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.” as we read in Acts 2:11. Today no one speak in this gift of tongue.

Now, some say that there is a 2nd tongue for private use which others cannot understand. They say this tongue has not ceased. Before considering whether ceased or not, the important question is, when did this begin.

The occasion of the original gift of tongue was the ascension of our Lord back to his Father and our heavenly Father. “Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.” (Ephesians 4:8).
This gift of tongue was given publicly, understood by all and benefited by all. It is consistent with the declaration that, “Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good”. (1 Corinthians 12:7)

But, when was the 2nd tongue for self edification, which others cannot understand, gifted to the church or individuals? No record of its origin is in the scriptures. When I study the nature of our God, I find it difficult to accept that it was a secret ‘back door’ origin.

Can anyone give some light on the origin of this 2nd tongue?

Post by : josbr  View Profile    since : 18 Sep 2007


Reply by : wilson609   View Profile   Since : 18 Sep 2007 7:30:24 PM Close
bro john kurien is back, hope he takes up this question in earnest
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Reply by : vmathew7   View Profile   Since : 19 Sep 2007 12:41:57 AM Close
Dear Borthers in Christ:

I think, there are 17 Spiritual gifts found in the 1 Corinthians 12-14. Can you find the origin of all these gifts from the Bible?

May be we can say after the coming of the Holy Spirit.

Here is a Bible verse which might be an answer for your question. Acts 19:6-7 says. “And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Now the men were about twelve in all.”
NKJV
Sorry, I don’t time to go through the details.
Pastor Mathew

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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 19 Sep 2007 1:51:21 AM Close
Dear brethren in Christ,

When "And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied" because he was Paul,Can we be like Paul, a faithful servant of God from the day he was transformed from Saul.Thats why we have blessed letters of him to differnt churches and saints and we read it till date and keep it close to our hearts. Why he is Paul is as below.
2nd Corinthians 11:23Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

24Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

25Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

26In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

27In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

28Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

29Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?

30If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

31The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

32In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:

33And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.

If we can suffer for our Christ and the Zeal to achieve souls what ever may be the troubles and temptation 10%of the above said, sure miracles can be done through us.


Yours in Christ
Samuel.V.J


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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 19 Sep 2007 7:51:21 AM Close
Dear Bro. Samuel

Apostle Paul suffered a lot for the Gospel, correct that was not the mandate of his miracle works but because he was an APOSTLE itself.

Today of lot of believers suffer because of Lord’s work, even martyrdom is happening but that is not the privilege of doing miracles. Because of our prayers miracles is happening in our lives but the GIFT OF MIRACLE IS NOT AVAILABLE PRESENTLY.

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 19 Sep 2007 10:02:46 AM Close
Those who speak gibberish and claim that they are walking as per 1 Cor 14:2 do not know how to read plain English. If that sounds rude, let it sound. Corinthians of old were no different from the modern Pentecostals, and Paul was RUDE with them (2 Cor 11:6).

I have placed my "commentary" for 1 Cor 14:1-14 below within [[square brackets]]. I have chosen a person speaking Assamese attending an assembly in Kerala as an example. No offence meant to either languages or peoples.


1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

2 For he that speaketh in an UNKNOWN tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God [[he who speaks ASSAMESE in a church in Kerala is not speaking to the audience but to God, because only God could understand Assamese and none else in that congregation]]: for no man understandeth him [[no one in an assembly in Kerala understands Assamese]]; howbeit in the spirit [[in his own spirit]] he speaketh mysteries [[things unknown and not understood by the audience]].

[[An UNKNOWN tongue is not angels tongue, but a proper language UNKNOWN to the audience]]

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification [[because he does it in a tongue KNOWN to others]], and exhortation, and comfort.

4 He that speaketh in an UNKNOWN tongue edifieth himself [[any Assamese person singing a Christian song in ASSAMESE will be edified by his own singing, or praying or any recitation he may do; but others who don't understand Assamese cannot be edified because they do not understand]]; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church [[because the prophet speaks in a tongue KNOWN to the people]].

cont'd...

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 19 Sep 2007 10:03:10 AM Close
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues [[various legitimate tongues]], but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret [[note that the "greater" clause is only applicable if the tongue is UNKNOWN to the crowd and NOT interpreted. In such a case, prophecy is greater because it is spoken in a KNOWN tongue and not UNKNOWN tongue]] , that the church may receive edifying.

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? [[what ever I speak, must be some SENSE - that is, it is by revelation, knowledge, prophesying or doctrine. No revelation, knowledge, prophesying or doctrine can be given in GIBBERISH, or in a language UNKNOWN to the readers for any benefit, unless it is interpreted]]

7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? [[Sounds are distinct. Languages have words which have SENSE, unlike gibberish which is NON-SENSE]].

8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? [[if a Pentecostal speaks in GIBBERISH, who can understand and implement his saying?]]

9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. [[This is true when some one speaks ASSAMESE in an assembly in Kerala where no one understands Assamese. This is also true in a Pentecostal church when folks speak GIBBERISH!]]

cont'd...

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Reply by : lemuelraj   View Profile   Since : 19 Sep 2007 10:03:22 AM Close
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. [[Gibberish has no significance]]

11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice [[as do the gibberish speakers]], I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an UNKNOWN tongue [[that is, he that only can speak Assamese but attending a Malayalam assembly]] pray that he may interpret [[his Assamese thoughts into Malayalam speech so that others can understand what he is speaking]].

14 For if I pray in an UNKNOWN tongue [[that is, he that only can speak Assamese but attending a Malayalam assembly, when he prays in ASSAMESE which is UNKNOWN to folks in Kerala]], my spirit prayeth, but my understanding [[about what I am praying]] is unfruitful [[to others who listen]].

Hope this helps.

In Christ Jesus
Moses LemuelRaj

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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 19 Sep 2007 11:43:31 PM Close
Dear Br.Samkutty in Christ,

I do completely with what you wrote and that is the fact, I just wrote, to all those who practice this type not to immitate what Lord Jesus Christ did or what the apostles and disciples did, we see Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, and nowadays many make dummy of the same on easter day,and they hang themselves on the cross and get tortured, for what, as a mark of repaying some thing to Jesus christ ? And the gifts which are practiced nowadays are immitating the saints of the scriptures, which should never be, we have to follow the instruction what the word of God says guided by the holy spirit , but that many a times not done and the acts are copied for which the present day practicers are not aware for what the acts were done and instruction were given during that days but are interpreted to satisfy each ones requirement.


Yours in Christ
Samuel.V.J

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Reply by : kurienjohn   View Profile   Since : 20 Sep 2007 1:14:03 AM Close
1. Lemuelraj is paraphrasing Scripture and intervening in Scripture with his own human logical interpretations (the Assamese stuff). I have no problems with this. There is freedom to do this kind of game-playing with Scripture for some like him. However, let him take care not to mock God in his spirit. We can excuse what comes forth from his soul.
2. It is true that what he does not understand might seem as "gibberish" to him and it is also true that many force themselves to speak "gibberish" so that they might be "seen of men" and have "honor of men" that they speak tongues. But what if some have the true gift? Let Lemuelraj again take care that he be not found mocking God, for God is not mocked, in his spirit. We can excuse what comes forth from his soul.
3. Does it matter when exactly the gift of edifying oneself in tongues before God was poured out? "The Spirit divides the gifts as He wills." Does anyone have a problem with that and does anyone want the Spirit to pour out and divide His gifts according to somebody's human will?
God bless you all
John Kurien
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Reply by : josbr   View Profile   Since : 20 Sep 2007 1:16:28 AM Close
Dear brother Mathew,
Thank your for your reply dated 19 Sep 2007 00:41:57

What I believe is that all the gifts to the church were given by the Lord at the foundation of the church. This includes the original gift of tongue which was clear, sensible, understood and benefited by all as per Acts 2. The original gift of tongues is consistent with the declaration that, “Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good”. (1 Corinthians 12:7)

This must have helped the apostles to preach the gospel across the world, some of them being uneducated fishermen. Even Apostle Thomas may have used this gift to “speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God”.

Since no one speaks in this gift of tongues today, we all agree that this original gift of tongue has ceased as this was foundational and apostolic. We read in Ephesians 2, that the church is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets.

Now, our discussion is on the origin of the 2nd tongue for self edification, which others cannot understand.

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Reply by : josbr   View Profile   Since : 20 Sep 2007 6:29:40 AM Close
It may be of interest in this discussion to mention that towards the end of Apostolic era, some men wanted to fill the gap by proclaiming themselves as Apostles.

The Lord appreciated the church of Ephesus for their vigil and said,

” ..thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:” (Revelations 2:2)

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Reply by : josbr   View Profile   Since : 25 Sep 2007 7:33:22 AM Close
We all agree that the original gift of tongue has ceased because no one speak in it today. It was clear, sensible, understood and benefited by all as per Acts 2.

When the original tongue ceased, a vacuum of gift was experienced. The question that troubled the Corinthians can be understood from 1 Corinthians 12:1-3.

“Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.”

From this introductory versus on the issue of tongue in Corinth, we may understand what troubled them. Apostle Paul is telling them not to confuse between Spiritual gifts and speaking in the Spirit. In order to prove that we speak in the Spirit, it is not necessary to have the gifts or tongue.

As of today, there were men who taught that tongue is the proof of speaking in the Spirit. Therefore when the original tongue ceased, it became necessary to have a 2nd tongue to prove that they speak in the spirit.

What is the proof that we are the children of God? What is the proof that we have the Spirit of God within us?

“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father”. (Galatians 4:6)

“..but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.” (Romans 8:15,16)

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Reply by : swj   View Profile   Since : 25 Sep 2007 7:56:32 AM Close
josbr,
<<<<<<<<When the original tongue ceased, a vacuum of gift was experienced.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It is in history. Rev. C.V.Andrews has a website :www.worldwidegospel.org. In that at the bottom part of the website there is the study about the book of revelation. If you listen the study about chapter 1 of revelation you will know about it. I don't study histroy, so I just listened to it and left it.

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Reply by : josbr   View Profile   Since : 27 Sep 2007 11:49:31 PM Close
When the original tongue ceased, it became necessary to have a 2nd tongue to prove that they speak in the Spirit.

The vanity of this 2nd tongue may be understood from the following analogies used by Apostle Paul while dealing with the issue at Corinth.

Sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. (1Corinthians 13:1)

Speaking into the air (1Corinthians 14:9)

Barbarian (1Corinthians 14:11)

Trumpet giving an uncertain sound
(1Corinthians 14:14)

Piped or harped? – Unable to discern (1Corinthians 14:7)

Apostle Paul is teaching the Corinthians that tongue is not the proof for speaking by the Spirit of God. (1Corinthians 12:1-3)

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Reply by : kurienjohn   View Profile   Since : 28 Sep 2007 12:54:33 AM Close
A lot of this discussion consists of people trying to keep explaining what they do not experience or understand on the basis of Scripture because they adhere to a certain interpretation of Scripture which has fossilised.
Just some points to make:
1. Nobody who understands Scripture and the Lord and His gift of tongues claims that tongues is proof for speaking by the Spirit. That is a peculiar Pentecostal stand which is rigid and fossilised just as the Brethren stand on cessation is rigid and fossilised.
3. The differentiating and dividing between the gift of tongues demonstrated in Acts when they were drunk with the Spirit and the gift of tongues spoken of in 1 Corinthians is a futile venture and is a ploy of Satan to divide the disciples. Those who can see the unity of the Spirit understand that both "work together for the good" of the Body of Christ.
3. Concerning the reference to the Ephesians that they had tried the apostles and found them liars - yes that was a GREAT thing the Ephesians did and were proud of - but Jesus had something against them that was the GREATER SIN - that they had left their first love!
4. What is the proof that we are the children of God? What is the proof that we have the Spirit of God within us?
“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father”. (Galatians 4:6) “..but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.” (Romans 8:15,16) - Absolutely right! But dont become so right that you are not careful and that you find yourself insulting the Holy Spirit and His gifts which are prevalent and exercised by His children even today!!
John Kurien
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Reply by : kbr   View Profile   Since : 28 Sep 2007 7:31:45 AM Close
Dear John Kurien,

<<....that you find yourself insulting the Holy Spirit and His gifts which are prevalent and exercised by His children even today!!>> Forget the Brethren stand and Pentecostal stand for a while.

1. Why should we go along with the stands of any of the groups or in the midway ?

2. Can you please list down some of the gifts that are prevalent and are exercised by His children today ?

3. Does it include the gibberish spoken by some charismatic people ?

4. Does this gibberish has any comparison with the Gift of tongues as mentioned in Acts 2 or/and 1 Corinthians ?

5. If you say the gift of tongues still exists, can you say one or two instances it is being used for the glory of God as per the parameters drawn in 1 Corinthians ?

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Reply by : josbr   View Profile   Since : 5 Oct 2007 4:51:19 AM Close
Quote from Mr. kurienjohn dt 28 Sep 2007 00:54:33

<<<The differentiating and dividing between the gift of tongues demonstrated in Acts when they were drunk with the Spirit and the gift of tongues spoken of in 1 Corinthians is a futile venture and is a ploy of Satan to divide the disciples. Those who can see the unity of the Spirit understand that both "work together for the good" of the Body of Christ>>>

We have seen that the original gift of tongue was clear, sensible, understood and benefited by all as per Acts 2, and also the vanity of 2nd tongue.

Some men want to confuse others by teaching that the 2nd tongue is a continuation of the original gift of tongue. Believers should be able to contrast the vanity of 2nd tongue with the truth of original gift of tongue. Both should be separated and the difference should be clearly understood.

The brand name for truth should not be used as a cover to sell lies. Neither mix up both.

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:15)

Regarding the “ploy of Satan”, I do not want to involve Satan in this discussion. Leave him alone. We are responsible for what we do. For that matter, it is improper even to involve the Name of God to intimidate others to accepting wrong things

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Reply by : rtdaniel   View Profile   Since : 12 Oct 2007 10:47:15 AM Close
Dear All,
I just want to add an information here as a warning about what is happening in the so called "Brethren" circle.
At an international Brethren confrence heled recently there was a discussion on a topic related to the Holy Spirit. At this discussion it was insisted that the "Brethren" lack the manifistations of the Holy Spirit, such as the speaking of toungs and working of mirracles and that is the reason for it's down fall. It was also said that they believe in a Holy Trinity comprised of the 'Father, Son and the Holy Scripture' rather than the 'Father, Son and the Holy Spiri'.(Printewd notes were given to all participents).
Be carefull and be prepared to face the enemy.It is not too far from our country.
R.T.Daniel
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Reply by : wilson609   View Profile   Since : 12 Oct 2007 11:14:56 AM Close
dear rtdaniel(roy?),
its so strange and surprising to read that at the conference of the brethren,it was insisted(concluded?),that the brethren lack manifestations of the spirit.i am wondering how the leaders of the conference themselves lost track of the doctrines,which we have been holding fast, for so many decades.was'nt that conclusion contested by any ?
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Reply by : puthusalem   View Profile   Since : 9 Dec 2007 3:08:27 PM Close
Dear brethren,
This is an old thread but I just came across now since it is come to the front line.

May be we can say after the coming of the Holy Spirit.
Here is a Bible verse which might be an answer for your question. Acts 19:6-7 says. “And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Now the men were about twelve in all.”>
It was quoted by Pastor Mathew.

I request Pastor Mathew to read from the beginning of Acts 19.
Note No.1
Tongues are not a sign for believers but for unbelievers
Acts 19: 1 “ …………. having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus”
Ephesus was the Greek cites on the western coast of Asia Minor. They were not Israelites; they were gentiles and were unbelievers.
In connection with this please read 1Cor 14:22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.

Note no.2
They were not born again disciples, they were the followers of John the Baptist, they were took the baptism by John the baptism. When they believed in Lord Jesus Christ and baptised, the Holy Spirit came upon them.
Acts 19: 1 “………finding certain disciples,”
Acts19:2 and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
Acts19:3 So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied.
Acts19:4 Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
Acts 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized into[bthe name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 19:6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[c] and prophesied.
Acts 19:7 There were about twelve men in all.
Cont........

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Reply by : puthusalem   View Profile   Since : 9 Dec 2007 3:09:53 PM Close
In connection with this please read John 3: 3 – 6 ; 3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[a]"
4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit.

Also Romans: 8: 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Your brother in Christ with love
Santhosh

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Reply by : puthusalem   View Profile   Since : 9 Dec 2007 3:54:17 PM Close
Dear brethren,
The bible does not say that the tongues is ceased but said, it will. But when? We do not know that, so we can not say that the tongues is ceased.
1 Corinthians 13: 8 8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

Here it is used “will be cease.

But looking unto that gift of God we can say in these days it does not require. Because, God has given the gift of tongues for spreading the gospel. When we read in Acts 2, we find that they talked in more than 16 languages. And when they preach gospel in different tongue, many of them were turn to Christ.

In these days we have bible in almost every language and we have believers of different speaking tongues.
But, if the God gave a different tongue to a believer, who can stop it? But according to 1 Corinthians 14:10 it should be clear to another person who understand that language, there is no doubt in it.

1 Corinthians 14:10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning.

Your brother in Christ with love
Santhosh

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 10 Dec 2007 7:21:21 AM Close
Dear 'puthusalem,'

It is written in 1 Corinthians 13:10 that when the knowledge is completed ('perfected is come' - KJV) the speaking in tongues and prophecy shall be done away. This was explained before. If you have evidences from the Word of God to furhter explain, please do so. Please do not assert one view without scriptural support.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : puthusalem   View Profile   Since : 10 Dec 2007 3:00:37 PM Close
"I Corinthians 13: 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.
11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.
12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

Dear brother George P Khoshy,
Thanks for your comments
But I would like to know your spiritual view on this verses, so that I my correct it if I am wrong.

Your brother in Christ with love
Santhosh

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Dec 2007 7:05:52 AM Close
Dear Santhosh,
Part-1

1 Corinthians 13:7-10 (II)

If we read 1 Corinthians 11-16, it will be clear that the coming together of the believers on the first day of the week was marred by various matters. One of the major errors at Corinth was that they wanted to speak in tongues, especially to God. They did not consider that the tongues were a sign to the unbelieving and what ever they do is to edify the Body of Christ, the Assembly. In 1 Corinthians 14 we read about their error in speaking in tongues and how that must be corrected for the edification of the saints. Paul corrected them by saying that he would prefer to speak in a few words that is understood by others is preferable to speaking in tongues. Speaking in a language that is not understood by others and claiming that they were speaking to God has to be stopped. This was the message Paul gave to them. Before writing about speaking in tongues Paul told them, “Love never fails, but whether prophecies, they shall be done away; or tongues, they shall cease; or knowledge, it shall be done away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part: but when that which is perfect (TELEW = to end, to finish) has come, that which is in part shall be done away.” (1 Corinthians 13:7-10) In 1 Corinthians 15:24 we read, “Then cometh the end…” The same word TELEW is translated as “end.” On the cross, when our Lord shouted His victorious cry, “It is finished” (John 19:30), it was the same Greek word TELEW that was used. You find it necessary to resolve to rhetoric to establish your erroneous and out of context interpretation to establish your false teaching about speaking in tongue. Any one who reads the scriptures in its context will realize that what is taught there is about the revelation of God’s mind and before the completion or finishing (TELEW) of the written Word of God, the Holy Spirit used gifts such as prophecy and tongues to reveal His mind to the saints... (Cont.)

(To be cont. Part-2)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Dec 2007 7:08:01 AM Close
Dear Santhosh,
Part-2

... Apostle Paul told the Corinthians who misused the gifts of the Holy Spirit, especially speaking in tongues, told them that that will cease (1 Corinthians 13:8). The Pentecostals and Charismatics, like talmid1, refuse to accept that which is written. We should be followers our Master, when He was tempted, He told Satan that “It is written,” and we are telling you, talmid1, that it is written, “…or tongues, they shall cease…” When you refuses to read what is written as it is written, let us remind you, “It is written…” Remember that Apostle Paul was the first and we are just following him as he was following the Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1).

The scriptures were completed (TELEW) as indicated in 1 Corinthians 13:10. In 1 Corinthians 13:10 we read about the cessation of tongues at the completion of the Word of God. We should not be lead away from the real time of the completion of the revelation of the Word of God through the Apostles. Those who refuse to accept this truth about the completion of the revelation of the Word of God, the will and mind of God, are propagating the agenda of having an incomplete Word of God that should be continually made to perfection or completion by recent revelations. This is a teaching that comes very close, if not identical, with that of Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Christian Scientists, etc.

In order to use 1 Corinthians 13:10, 12 to establish the continuation of speaking in tongue as a gift to individuals, you have to change the meaning of the Greek word ‘TELEW,’ which means ‘to complete’ (KJV translated it as ‘perfect.’). Our Lord used the same word on the cross, when he proclaimed, “It is finished.” It was He who brought the work of salvation to its completion or to its end. When He did that, he told us that he brought it to its finish... (Cont.)

(To be cont. Part-3)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Dec 2007 7:09:49 AM Close
Dear Santhosh,
Part-3

... In 1 Corinthians 13, we read that when the revelation is brought to its completion, the prophecy and partial knowledge will be done away and the tongue will cease. When you insist that the revelation is not brought to its completion or perfection, then you are insisting that prophecy, partial knowledge, and tongue continue. In 1 Corinthians 13:8 we read that prophecy will be done away, the tongue shall cease, and the knowledge shall be done away. The prophecy and knowledge shall be done away, and the tongue will cease. ‘Cease’ does not mean ‘will continue,’ as you want us to believe. We are asked to read as it is written, then only we can answer the enemy, “it is written.” Why is the difference in telling us that certain gifts will be “done away” (KATARGEThESTAI = will be abolished), while another one will “cease” (PAUSONTAI = shall cease).

Let us consider ‘prophecy’ and ‘knowledge’ that are to be ‘done away’ or ‘will be abolished.’ In verse 9 we read that both these gifts are in part or partial in nature. When they are brought to an end, completed (perfected in verse 10 in KJV), they will be abolished. That is, there will not be any more revelation to give as a prophecy to the children of God. That is what happened in the early days of Christianity when the Holy Spirit inspired the Apostles to complete, bring to an end, of the Word of God for us. When ‘prophecy’ and ‘knowledge’ were completed, the speaking in tongue as a child ceased. The gift of speaking in tongue was not abolished, but ceased. Prophecy is possessed only in the form of inspiration. Knowledge is the reflection of what is prophesied. That makes the knowledge depend upon the prophecy. If we prophesy in part (13:10), the knowledge has to be lesser than what is given in part, because of its dependency on prophecy. That makes the completeness of knowledge solely depends on the completeness of the prophecy... (Cont.)

(To be cont. part-4)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Dec 2007 7:11:13 AM Close
Dear Santhosh,
Part-4

... When those who speak in tongue say that God “reveals through believers,” they are insisting on the incompleteness of the Word of God. Satan knows that as long as he can convince men that the Word of God is not complete (perfect – KJV), he could mislead many to continue in what God has abolished and ceased.

Apostle Paul tried to use certain illustrations to make us understand the abolishing and ceasing of certain gifts. In 13:11 he used the figure of a child growing into manhood. This was to illustrate the partial knowledge of a child and how it is abolished in a grown man. In 13:12 he used the figure of the image reflected imperfectly and how it changes to a perfect image when one see it face to face. The first was in connection with “now I know in part,” and the second in connection with “then shall I know even as also I am known.” What we know has an imperfection because of our nature, and it will be ‘done away’ or ‘abolished’ only when we come face to face with the true knowledge. When we come to 13:13, the comparison of prophecy, knowledge, and tongue is with faith, hope, and love. Among the three; faith, hope, and love; love is greater, because we know the love of God without a shadow of doubt. It is a complete knowledge and not partial.

In John 17:3 we learn that the knowledge of God and Christ is ‘everlasting life.’ In 1 John 4:7, 8 we learn that whoever loves God knows God, and whosoever loves not does not know Him. When we read them together, we realize that the incompleteness of our knowledge is based on the lack of our love to God. The prophecy is brought to completeness, for us. There is no excuse for holding an incomplete knowledge. If we do, it is because we do not love God as we should. We cling on to our ideas and logic to follow alien ‘concepts’ and are eager to propagate them.

(To be cont. Part-5)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 11 Dec 2007 7:12:02 AM Close
Dear Santhosh,
Part-5

It is indubitably told in 1 Corinthians 13:7-10 that when the Word of God is completed, prophecies shall be done away with and the speaking in tongue shall cease. We can proclaim what is completed, and that is the completed word about the God’s mind for us. In that sense the translators of KJV used the word “perfect” in 1 Corinthians 13:10. We can expound on what is revealed as the completed word from God. Though, carelessly, we may call it prophesying, it is only repeating what is in the Bible. There is no justification to expect to receive a new revelation of God’s mind using the Corinthians error of making some unintelligible noise and claiming that they are speaking to God and not to man. This is already corrected in 1 Corinthians 14.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : puthusalem   View Profile   Since : 11 Dec 2007 3:06:34 PM Close
Dear George P Khoshy,

Thanks for your detailed explanation and I appreciate your valuable time you took for this.

Not for any arguments but there is one more thing I would like to ask you, and this is not connection with the problem which was having in the church of Corinthians.
In an unexpected situation, a person (for example; John) reached a place where a group of people are speaking a different language which he does not understand. And that group of people does not understand any other languages. And if the God gave him the tongue to speak to them, can we say it is not possible?

When I said the tongue, not the tongue which the people who spoke in these days and claim that they are speaking to God. That is blasphemy and it is a trap of devil.

Your brother in Christ with love
Santhosh

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 12 Dec 2007 7:34:44 AM Close
Dear 'puthusalem,'

Your posting of 11 Dec 2007 15:06:34 is a good example of the use of rhetorical scenarios to establish a preferred teaching. No God-fearing person should do such a thing. The Scripture, the Word of God, should be your only guide and not your assumed intelectual superiority over God, be the guide on subjects of faith and conduct. Yes! I said that, because your scenario implies that the Holy Spirit, God, did not know about it and you are introducing it for the benefit of other Christians.

I know a number of people who went to places, without knowing their langauges. They studied the language of that place and worked for the Lord and there were results. This include European missionaries as well as Indian missionaries.

In 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 we are clearly told that certain manifestations of early Christianity will cease or be done away. Are you saying that the Holy Spirit lied and your scenario is the evidence? You do this in the name of the Holy Spirit. It is a travesty of misuse of the liberty that is given to a Christian.

Rather than some imaginary scenariuo, please give me some actual events that could be verified. It will help.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : swj   View Profile   Since : 13 Dec 2007 7:58:55 AM Close
Puthusalem,

<<<>>>>>

Different languages was on earth from Genesis 11:9. Before that everybody had the same language. If you want to speak to somebody-communicate with anyone -you need to learn and understand the languages in genesis 11:9.(using your intelligence). In Acts 2 the listeners had already knew their language and inorder to prove the power of holy spirit- or the presence of god, holy spirit, the listerners heard the believers speaking in tongues as in their language they understand. To preach gospel by intelligence you don't need to speak in tongues. But the God to work by your speach you must have holy spirit baptism. It is the holy spirit who make them know about their sin not the language.

We translate the bible into different languages.

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Reply by : swj   View Profile   Since : 13 Dec 2007 8:03:18 AM Close
Puthusalem,

I don't know where did you find that they preached gospel in different tongue.

It is, they preached gospel in various languages.

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Reply by : puthusalem   View Profile   Since : 13 Dec 2007 2:59:22 PM Close
Dear George P Khoshy,

With respect, I suggest you to read my comment from beginning to end carefully.
9 Dec 2007 15:08:27
9 Dec 2007 15:09:53
9 Dec 2007 15:54:17
10 Dec 2007 15:00:37
11 Dec 2007 15:06:34

Your brother in Christ with love
Santhosh

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 14 Dec 2007 7:09:30 AM Close
Dear Santhosh,

I read those postings. My request was in connection with your rhetorical question using a scenario, 11 Dec 2007 15:06:34. Could you provide a few examples, events that could be verified, that satisfy your scenario? That will help.

Christianity is a real thing. The doctrines are for real Christian to practice in their life on this earth. Rather than our imagination leads us away from the Word of God, let the Word of God lead us in our life. Please provide some examples from real life, with names and places for verification.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : puthusalem   View Profile   Since : 14 Dec 2007 3:53:39 PM Close
Dear George P Khoshy,

The 1st three posting was my comments.

The 4th one (10 Dec 2007 15:00:37) was a doubt clearing and I said I am willing to correct if I am wrong. And you gave me a clear study on it. Once again thank you.

The first part of 5th one ((11 Dec 2007 15:06:34) was an appreciation for your comments upon my request.

In addition, I apologize for the posing on 9 Dec 2007 15:54:17 and if you think it must remove from the thread, I will do it gladly or the webmasters can do it, I have no problem.

And the second part of 5th one was a personal question towards you. It was not my imagination but I did that way so that I could here from you. I was not witness for that incident and that is why I did not mention the name of the person and place.

It is good to get wisdom from the word of God and grow up together.

Please…..don not judge. And I do not want to add any more words.

If my scenario hurt you or miss leaded you, once again I say sorry for that.

May God bless you.

Your brother in Christ, with love.
Santhosh

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 17 Dec 2007 7:10:43 AM Close
Dear Santosh,

Please allow me to say that your scenario did not hurt or offend me. There are times when people try to establish their preferred teaching using rhetoric. It is like the newsmedia ploy. They will ask a politician to suppose that their children use drugs and what will they do. That is not the way for us to study the Bible. Our study of the Word of God must start from the Word of God and end in the Word of God.

Your scenario did nto begin from the Word of God. It came from you. Please do remember that in Christianity the end does not justify the means. Tt is the means that justify the end. Our "means" is the Word of God.

Since you do not have a personal experience to cite in support of your scenario, I have no answer to it, other than 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 tell us that such manifestations have ceased or done away.

You don't have to remove any postings. They are historical evidences as being facts. I am not addressing the content of postings, but only the posting as it is.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 20 Dec 2007 8:11:56 AM Close
Dear Santhosh,

Let me tell, why I do not like to answer scenarios or hypothetical questions. You have a right to know and I have an obligation to say. This is the fundamental reason why I refuse to give answers to them.

We should not confound miracles with gifts. What is a miracle? A miracle is the suspension of the governing principles and providing a glimpse of the original environment for a moment without introducing new principles or returning to the original environment. On the other hand, a gift is an act of favor that is given for edifying the population. The gifts as we read in 1 Corinthians 12 is for the benefit of the general population of believers, the Body of Christ. In the next chapter we are told certain of them will cease or done away. That means those that are not done away will continue for the edification of the Body. When those gifts, which were ceased or done away, are manifested in one occasion, then that is not the justification to teach about the continuation of those gifts. The principle is that the Body, the Assembly, should function without those gifts. If God wishes to manifest His power by showing a ceased or done away gift for a moment, then for that moment He suspends the ceasing of done away of those gifts. It is like a miracle. Those were gifts, commonly manifested, in the early days of the growth of the Assembly that Christ builds. If they are gifts that are to be practiced today, then they will be prevalent among believers, like the other gifts. We should not confound gifts and miracles.

Gifts are given from the Lord Jesus Christ and distributed through the Holy Spirit as He pleases. We cannot attain them by fasting and prayer (1 Corinthians 12), as some teach.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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