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# 01389 :  What sud be the answer to this logic...

If God created Satan, then God is Satan. You cannot create something unless it is a manifestation of your own will. How can you make a computer if you don't know how? You would have to base it on knowledge of that computer, or in this case, God's knowledge of "evil." So, God is evil. If God created hell, he'd have to know about eternal torment, meaning God is tormented. If God created humans, and humans are imperfect, God is imperfect. People blind to reason should refer to Isaiah 45:7, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

in HIM
Winchuck

Post by : winchuck  View Profile    since : 21 Sep 2007


Reply by : trds   View Profile   Since : 21 Sep 2007 5:05:24 AM Close
Dear 'winchuk',

I thought of replying to your post just to take relief from the current tension from other threads challenging and counter challenging.

First of all the title of the thread has a spelling mistake, which means, you and I are not perfect.

1) God did not create Satan - Your logic is wrong.

2) Man does not create anything; man either discovers what is already created or invents. Your logic is wrong.

3) Man does not need to know anything about computer to make a computer. Man only assembles the computer based on some literature given to him. A person's lot may be just to fix two screws - Your logic is wrong.

4) The answer is within my answer (3)

5) knowing does not mean to be tormented.

6) Perfect One only knows how to create perfect and imperfect. Imperfect One can not create anything; he will make a mess of anything that is given to him; we are all imperfect -- that is why we fight whether we are 'brethren' or 'Brethren'.

7) If you answer the meaning of this following verse we can ponder on Isaiah 45:7 also.

Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6 KJV

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Reply by : kurienjohn   View Profile   Since : 21 Sep 2007 5:47:13 AM Close
Just a question to trds:
If God did not create Satan, who did?
John Kurien
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Reply by : trds   View Profile   Since : 21 Sep 2007 6:22:35 AM Close
Dear John Kurien,

God created cherubim in perfection, and he, with his lofty ideas and pride tried to become equivalent to God, who threw him from his eminence. That one, who was thrown out of his eminence is known as, Satan, who is evil. See, I am imperfect, if you know better answer teach me.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 21 Sep 2007 7:22:18 AM Close
Dear 'Winchuk,'

Let me add to what 'trds' wrote. Your posting clearly states that the argument is based on human logic. What logic do you use? What are its axioms? Please list them.

When you list them, please tell us, is the logic you use perfect? The logic determines the validity of the conclusion, especially when we try to make something that is not given in th scriptures to be scriptural. The scriptures being the revelation of the will and mind of God. From this stand point, the knowledge about the limitation of the human logic is highly desirable for us to understand the possibility of being wrong in our conclussions.

You should also consider the following: Is there any verse in the Bible that tell us that God created Satan? In Isaiah 45:7, which you quoted, the Hebrew word for "evil" is RA, which is also used at many placed. Genesis 2:9, 17; 3:5, 22 are four of them. The "evil" (RA) in Isaiah 45:7 is different from Satan (HASATAN = Accuser) as se read in Job 1:6, 7, 8, 12, 2:1, 2, 3, 6, 7, and so on. It is also different from Devil (SAIR = Hairy one) in Lev. 17:7 and 2 Chr.11:5, or (SHED = Spoiler) in Deut. 32:17 and Ps. 106:37).

Therefore, we have to consider the logic that is used to come to the conclusion, as you stated in your initial posting. Please tell us about it.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : winchuck   View Profile   Since : 21 Sep 2007 7:50:46 AM Close
Thanks for the answers.

Actually this was one of the postings posted by one of my company's employee on the company's internal discussion forum.

I have answers to give him But I thought i would take advice from you all elders (with the correct wordings and quotes).

in HIM
Winsy

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Reply by : trds   View Profile   Since : 21 Sep 2007 8:44:14 AM Close
Hey Win,

You just can't get away like that. Share your prize with brethren, who are Brethren and also other brethren, who are around you.

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Reply by : mathewgeorge   View Profile   Since : 21 Sep 2007 5:26:46 PM Close

Dear Winsy,

you stated:
"Actually this was one of the postings posted by one of my company's employee on the company's internal discussion forum".

It would have been better if you mentioned this aong with your original posting.

"I have answers to give him But I thought i would take advice from you all elders (with the correct wordings and quotes)."

Please post your answers that you have for our(my) understanding on this forum also.

Thanks

Mathew

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Reply by : kurienjohn   View Profile   Since : 24 Sep 2007 5:48:24 AM Close
Dear TRDS,
next question:
How or where did the cherubim find his lofty ideas from? Since he did not have some one to tempt him from without (unlike Eve) where did these ideas come from? If the cherubim were made perfect by God, how is it that something evil arose from within that perfection? How can something perfect become imperfect?
John Kurien
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Reply by : trds   View Profile   Since : 24 Sep 2007 6:51:01 AM Close
Quote:

"Dear TRDS,
next question:"

So, was my first answer right? How many questions do you have for me in all, Mr. John Kurien?

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Reply by : trds   View Profile   Since : 12 Oct 2007 7:53:43 AM Close
Dear John Kurien,

Since you came back again as 'johnkurienagain' I thought of reminding you to let me know whether or not my first answer is right. Frankly speaking I do not know the answer to your second question. If you have answer please let me know.

I also want to know from you if it is true that man by virtue of his good works becomes one of the gods on trillions of planets. Some believe Jesus became one such god, and by living like him you and I also can become one god like him. Is it true?

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Reply by : sajant   View Profile   Since : 12 Oct 2007 8:37:34 AM Close
Dear All,

I was just going thru the thread. The queries raised by 'winchuck' and some similar stuff had took me away from Faith once. I still do not have answers to many of my such questions even now (I'm not posting them here just because, I don't want to challenge the Faith of believers and confuse all. Also, it may cause unwanted fights here). They are no more a big botheration to me now.

I had come across a reading by St.Augustine (Catholic). I guess many of you might be aware of it, still I'm summerising it in short in my own words for people who haven't heard about it. He was trying to understand the divine mystery of the Holy Trinity, which he couldn't "logically" prove. Then he had a vision / dream. He was walking thru the seashore and met a boy drawing water in a seashell from the sea and filling the small pond, he created on the sand. Augustine asked him on what is he doing, for which he replied, I'm moving the entire water in this sea to this pond ! He laughed at the boy and asked whether you think that is possible - and the reply was - 'sir, that is what exactly I have to tell you'.

We - as just a creation God, I guess it will be foolish to obtain answers to all such divine mysteries. As somebody said, "If we can understand God completely, that god is not God and that Man is not man".

I know it doesn't answer the question. But, it helped me to surrender myself to my God whom I experienced rather than questioning Him. I know my little brain, which is a gift from the Lord, cannot accommodate all the mysteries, which created the whole universe and being such a fool to continue to love all sinners regardless of their state. "Lord, let the mysteries be with you, disclose it to me when you know I can afford & understand them. I know you give whatever I need and whatever is not known, is not needed to me".

God Bless, Sajan

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Reply by : trds   View Profile   Since : 12 Oct 2007 9:09:43 AM Close
After seeing few threads got deleted where I had contributed few answers I thought I should never write again here, because as per me it was a waste of time, but the way things seem to be forging ahead here with believers in Universalism and Cults entering and disturbing the minds of many sincere believers I thought of questioning them, but the answers coming forward seem to be a remote possibility.
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