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# 01425 :  Woman writers
Recently in a magazine there was an article, which criticized woman writers in Christian publications. Article was against woman writing articles for sister’s column. Also the article had objection against women asking questions in a Bible study. It characterized elders who allow such practice as Jezebalism.
Does Bible prohibit woman-writing articles, or even ask questions in a Bible study? I know Bible prohibits woman-teaching men. But writing articles or even asking questions being compared Jezebalism didn’t make sense to me. Can somebody shed some light into this issue?
Post by : annvarghese  View Profile    since : 15 Oct 2007


Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 12:58:40 AM Close
Dear "annvarghese" in Christ,

I am not against the opinion of what you have posted , sisters should have thier right to express thier views in this era where men and female go shoulder to shoulder and are dependant on each other, but it doesnt mean the decorum of the headship is not there. God didnt change, and word of God the same, but we changed,The talents should be appreciated for writing , but it shouldnt be in any way used for teaching the saints.

Do we follow the scriptures, if yes there were several pious sisters in the scriptures who were very close to Jesus Christ during his public ministry and in old testament we have several pious female characters like elkanah, esther etc but do we read in the 66 books any of the books which was written by any of the women authors. The experiences of several sisters are quoted but it was presented by male authors during several periods.The Holy Spirit didnt allow it. Those who are in favour of a feminist approach might say , as it is a male dominated world thats why it is like this. Sisters if to ask question , the scriptures says ask your husband, if not married, her father, if in a sunday school thier teachers,if none of them can answer, ask in personal those who are well versed , in the gathering of the saints asking a question is also speaking aloud and is prohibited
1 Corinthians 14:
34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
I timothy 2
11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.


I hope you wont get annoyed, this is what the scriptures says.

Yours in Christ
Samuel.V.J

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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 1:40:33 AM Close
Dear bro Samuel, and brethren,
I agree with you, as that’s what the scripture teaches, but suppose, after the Bible Study, can’t a sister go to the brother who shared, and ask a question, if she has some doubts, or problem in understanding, etc. if there are none at home to ask?
Sincerely in Christ,
Tinka
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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 2:12:37 AM Close
Dear Sister tinka in Christ,

<<Sisters if to ask question , the scriptures says ask your husband, if not married, her father, if in a sunday school thier teachers,if none of them can answer, ask in personal those who are well versed>> Sure she can.

Yours in Christ
Samuel.V.J

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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 2:13:31 AM Close
Dear bro Samuel,
thanks for your fast reply, but tell me, suppose you are taking the Bible Study, and I'm there, and I can't understand something you said, so can't I ask you at the end, in person, as to explain what you meant in that portion, or suppose, I don't agree with you in some place, as I feel that, thats not what i learnt from the Scriptures, can't I ask the question to you?
Yours in Him,
Tinka
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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 2:16:30 AM Close
bro Samuel, tell me precisely, suppose in cases like me, where we aren't married yet, nor are our parents in the Lord, i.e., unsaved.
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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 2:33:39 AM Close
Dear Sister tinka in Christ,

<<suppose you are taking the Bible Study, and I'm there, and I can't understand something you said, so can't I ask you at the end, in person, as to explain what you meant in that portion, or suppose, I don't agree with you in some place, as I feel that, thats not what i learnt from the Scriptures, can't I ask the question to you?>> Yes you can personally.

<<tell me precisely, suppose in cases like me, where we aren't married yet, nor are our parents in the Lord, i.e., unsaved.>> As I wrote in my previous post <<ask in personal those who are well versed>> with the scriptures .There is not at all any harm.


Yours in Christ
Samuel.V.J

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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 2:55:10 AM Close
Dear bro Samuel, thanks for your clarification, and "annvarghese", sorry for intruding the thread. Hope you don't mind.
in Christian love,
Tinka
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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 3:23:27 AM Close
Dear Bro. Samuel & Sis. Tinka

I am facing difficulty to get in to Brethren.in discussion forum (moderated forum), are you facing such difficulty?

Bro. Samuel

There no scriptural (Word of God) writers among the women is correct, does that mean women (sisters in Christ) not to write.

I do not think spiritual writing by sisters is coming under headship. There are famous hymn writers among sisters and books are written by our sisters,

Yours in Christ.

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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 3:33:38 AM Close
Dear bro Samkutty,
Yes we are facing the same problem accessing the moderated forum(brethren.in). I've sent a request to the web-master to look into the matter.
yours in Him,
Tinka
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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 5:16:52 AM Close
Dear Br.Samkutty & sister tinka in christ,

All are facing the same problem in accessing moderated forum. And today morning it was for KB net also.

<<There no scriptural (Word of God) writers among the women is correct, does that mean women (sisters in Christ) not to write.>>

My reply <<The talents should be appreciated for writing , but it shouldnt be in any way used for teaching the saints.>> And to add not to criticise by anyway the gathering and the sanctity of the scriptures.

We do praise our various sisters whom have written various hymns through which we glorify the Lord.

Yours in Christ
Samuel.V.J


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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 8:09:19 AM Close
Dear brothers and sisters,

This subject has to be studied with much diligence. Coming up with unambiguous statements based on one verse is too dangerous. I know for sure there would be much controversy if I were to write on this subject. This is where I have linked (before on this forum) the use of head-cover, to display submission, and spiritual liberty given to women in reading a Bible verse or giving a testimony or praying in public without usurping God-given authority to men even when men are present.

1 Cor 14: 34-35 is NOT absolute silence. It cannot be. Upon careful analysis of the passage and the theme of 1 Cor 11-14 one could come to the correct interpretation. The pattern some of us have seen back in Kerala, in some assemblies such as my home assembly, where a woman was given the freedom to share her testimony while men were present seems to be most biblically correct pattern. The pattern we see in the Western Assemblies and those following such pattern of absolute silence and requesting a woman to wear the head-cover do not seem making any biblical sense.

Again, I know I have opened a ‘can of worms’ here. But with all sincerity, it is difficult to stay quiet either. Let me sum it up. I believe the pattern we have seen back in Kerala several years ago allowing women to give a testimony, read a scripture portion or even offer a prayer, without any sort of teaching to men who are present, make the most biblical sense after much careful study on my part, later on in my life.

[But having a lady gets up and give a testimony before allowing that sister to take part from the bread and the cup was indeed unwarranted, resulting from the misconceptions.]

Contd.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 8:09:38 AM Close
Asking questions publicly in a Bible study by a woman, as long as it is done in a submissive spirit as the scripture teaches, MUST NOT be prohibited. But a question in the form of teaching men or debating with men in a ‘church setting’ is unbiblical. What is mandated in a church setting cannot be taken as a universal rule, although certain element of the general principle must be followed, since such pattern of authority is spelled out in the domestic front as well.

Regards,

Tom J

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 8:25:34 AM Close
P. S.


I personally would encourage women to write on scriptural things in forums such as these. They should ask questions and counter questions. They should explain their understanding of the scripture. Nobody, including men should be belligerent, but mutually respectful. The pattern set for the church setting MUST NOT be applied here or in any written publication.

If someone is too offended by that he has every right to skip that article. Men should be careful not to place unbiblical yoke upon the shoulders of women like what was done in the case of ‘Jewelry prohibition’.

Dear Annvarghese,

If you live in the USA please try to get a book by Alexander Strock – ‘Equal Yet Different’. It is available in most of the Christian book stores. It is an excellent exposition.

Regards,

Tom J

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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 8:43:44 AM Close
Dear br.Tom J in Christ,

I have written what has been my understanding from the scriptures.<< The pattern some of us have seen back in Kerala, in some assemblies such as my home assembly, where a woman was given the freedom to share her testimony while men were present seems to be most biblically correct pattern.>> I too compleletly agree.

Dear brother why this types of querries have risen up this recent years, we had our parents , our grandparents who have set us an examples which was from the scriptures,the generation just before us didnt have any complaints , why do the sisters now feel that they are deprived from thier so called rights this era. What are the basic reasons.


Yours in Christ
Samuel.V.J



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Reply by : mom23   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 8:57:43 AM Close
Dear Bro.Tom,
I need to clarify something..

In 1 Cor. 14:34, the verse Bro.Samuel quoted..
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak."

vs. 35 ".....for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

These verses seem to indicate that women not speak at all....understanding it literally i.e. The previous verses in the chapter talks of tongues and prophesying...and suddenly it turns to women's silence and the preceding verses go back to the topic....is there a reason for this ? Is the verses referring to women in reference to the topic in the chapter ?

What does this part of the verse mean...
1 Cor. 14: 34
"...burt they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law." ?

Bro. Samuel,
The verses in 1 Cor. talks of married women asking their husbands. Now what happens when the husbands themselves have no answers or if they are unbelievers etc. or unmarried women with no male in the house to turn to or widows on their own?

The verse in 1 Tim.3:13,14,15...
"For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And then Adam was not decieved but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in child bearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

What is the connection between these verses with women's silence ? These verses also indicate that a woman has a "saving" through childbearing and her spiritual life after...or am I understanding this wrong? What is the connection with the previous 2 verses i.e. 1 Tim. 3:11,12?

And none of these verses seem to indicate whether a woman can or cannot write articles, so is it actually based on spiritual truths or is it something else ?

Judy.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 9:27:28 AM Close
Dear Bro. Samuel,

You have asked why sisters are asking these questions -

Please see the introduction to this thread by Ann..

"Recently in a magazine there was an article, which criticized woman writers in Christian publications. Article was against woman writing articles for sister’s column. Also the article had objection against women asking questions in a Bible study. It characterized elders who allow such practice as Jezebalism."

See brother, there was an article written against women writing article in a sister's column! Why can't some of these men show some spiritual discipline and start studying these issues rather thoroughly, instead of picking up the pen and start writing?

We cannot blame the sisters! Some such writings are too destructive.

[Few months ago ‘Suvisheshakan’ published an article against ‘Challenge Meetings’! These are meetings specially geared to introduce the need for Evangelists and to remind men of their supreme call. But this brother from Trivandrum wrote vehemently against it! Then my dear magazine editors were willing to publish it too! ]

When people do not spend time studying the Bible, particularly the NT they come up with lot of fancy ideas. They write against anything that does not fit their mold. They use some OT unrelated, misquoted passages and phrases and fill the pages of the magazines.

Dear mom23,

Your questions require thorough examination of the Scriptures. You raised some very pertinent issues. God willing (I hope this will not be a commitment I make and will not live up to) I will try to deal with it.

Dear Bro John Miller,

I noticed your comments and request in the ‘future Judgments’. God willing (another commitment) I like to respond to it soon.

Regards,

Tom J

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Reply by : annvarghese   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 10:10:41 AM Close
Thank you for all the responses. Bro.Samuel I’m not annoyed and Sis. Tinka, I don’t feel intruded. I’m learning from all the responses here.
I agree with Bro. Tom J in his opinion “Asking questions publicly in a Bible study by a woman, as long as it is done in a submissive spirit as the scripture teaches, MUST NOT be prohibited. But a question in the form of teaching men or debating with men in a ‘church setting’ is unbiblical.”
Just a clarification question in submission should not be deemed as being authoritative or taking over the headship. Especially a scenario like sis. Tinka suggested. On the other hand I have seen women debating men in Bible study. I felt uncomfortable in those situations and it is unbiblical.
contd/-
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Reply by : annvarghese   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 10:12:30 AM Close
Writing in woman’s column for the exhortation of sisters by another sister cannot be held as heretical. God gives each one talents and he/she uses it for God’s glory. I know of a sister who has been writing for almost 50 years in Christian publications which has benefited both believers and unbelievers equally. She has always written exhorting sisters. Through her writing even a lady turned from committing suicide. Another example would be Fanny Cosby. Hymns that she wrote have been an encouragement to many. It has benefited many believers in the ages past and for the times to come. Can we say that it is unbiblical for these women to write?

Why questions raised by women?
It is the article that published earlier raised these questions. Generations past have encouraged these women to write and there wasn’t any opposition to their writings. But now when articles compare women writers and their articles as Jezebalism, don’t you think it is little too much? I don’t think it is an issue of feminism or equal rights? Feminism doesn’t have any footing in Christian life. The question is what is Biblical and unbiblical in a woman’s role in churches and outside world? We have verses in the Bible which prohibits woman teach in the gathering of the saints. Is there any verse that prohibits woman in using her God given talents?

Ann

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 11:40:21 AM Close
How easily we exaggerate? A woman who asks a question in a Bible study is portrayed equal to Jezebel! Who is Jezebel and who is a God fearing female student of the Bible? I wonder how such articles find room in any Christian magazines.

I haven’t seen the article so I don’t where it appeared. But such articles are thoroughly destructive and the fanciful creations showing ignorance of the word of God and God’s people are better off disregarding it.

Comparing a God-fearing sister who wants to study the word of God gets compared to Jezebel! How ignorant? How cruel?

Tom J

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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 1:20:55 PM Close
Dear sis.Ann in Christ

<<On the other hand I have seen women debating men in Bible study. I felt uncomfortable in those situations and it is unbiblical.>>

A debate starts with a small question and when the answers doesnt suit the our expected answer another counter question arises up and hence a debate happens, Is it advisable to have such types of debates when elderly brethren, grandparents, parents , husband is present there in the gathering, I leave it upto you all how you analyze the scenario.

Dear br.Tom
<<Asking questions publicly in a Bible study by a woman, as long as it is done in a submissive spirit as the scripture teaches, MUST NOT be prohibited. But a question in the form of teaching men or debating with men in a ‘church setting’ is unbiblical.>> would you please illustrate practically how would be submissive question, if the answer given in reply doesnt suits the answer of the person who has raised the question, there is a debate and chat. What are the remedies.

Yours in Christ
Samuel.V.j

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Reply by : mom23   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 1:34:31 PM Close
Dear Bro. Samuel,
I just wanted to add a few thoughts to what the Bro.Tom and Sis.Ann have already put forard regarding your question.

You asked the change in the attitude of women today vs. the women of the older generation.
Some of the most interesting things I have observed in the women...meaning my grandmother's generation was the place of women in society itself. One thing was, they were governed by tradition and culture much more....the set patterns/gender roles because
1. it was their comfort zone
2. they didn't have any exposures to any other way of life or thought.
3. their educational qualifications itself.

To a great extent, men were given autocratic authority over women which even extended to church (you may deny it but..)...so challenging authority is not even an issue. There were other day to day problems that seemed more pertinent.

The generations that followed migrated to other countries, other states, they see other cultures...they get educated. One important aspect of education is to question blind beliefs or handed down traditions which don't make sense.
It isn't just a case of feminism...it is a case of women educating themselves with the scriptures and trying to get answers. When that happens, a result is to ask the "why's" and "why not's" and "what if's".

It is interesting to also note what happens to the next generation of women.... we are so obsessed with educational qualifications, but we forget what the child is learning during this pursuit. They are bombarded with media/peers/other families with an unbiblical view on men/women/family & relationships.
We need to ponder how much of that is being observed and emulated by our next generation, after all they spend most of their time in a day either learning this through their education (like feminism) or peers who further influence and cement that ideal...and the media.

This was just my own observations based on talking to a lot of older ladies in various families...stories of their past tell you so much....

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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 3:33:44 PM Close
Dear Ann Varghese,

Your initial query raises an important question and sadly shows a great lack of understanding of the scriptures on the part of some. To suggest that women who use their knowledge of scripture and desire to serve Christ in this way are like Jezebel, is plainly ridiculous.

If we turn to the scriptures, in Acts ch.18 we find that Aquila and Priscilla expounded the way of God to Apollos more exactly. It is clear from this scripture that in the setting of their home, where they had enjoyed intimate Christian fellowship with Paul, they were jointly able to teach Apollos from their knowledge of the truth.

Another interesting thing about this Christian couple is that they are mentioned six times in scripture. Three times Aquila's name is put first and three times it is the name of Priscilla that takes precedence. This seems to indicate that spiritually, there was equality between them. Godly women have much to offer in the way of wise counsel, teaching in the proper setting, and spiritual influence among the people of God. If such choose to write down their thoughts and pass them on in written form, there is nothing in scripture as far as I am aware to forbid it.

God bless you dear sister.

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : annvarghese   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 5:44:52 PM Close
Dear Bro. Samuel,

Debating men in the gathering of saints by a woman is unbiblical in my perspective, as I had stated above. But those situations are extremely rare and unfortunately I have been witness to it too. Under no circumstance do I condone that behavior. But most of the time I have seen women ask a question for clarification and leave it at that. I myself have asked questions and when I didn’t get a satisfactory answer I didn’t go for a counter question. I stopped and went searching the Scripture or personally enquired about it with others who are well versed in the Scripture. Not every question will turn into a debate if the questioner has an understanding of how to behave in the presence of God. Whether we are in the Bible study or any other meetings we (bros & sis) are in the presence of God.

Dear Bro. Tom & Bro. John,

Thank you for the word of encouragement.

This article was published recently in a Malayalam magazine edited by a prominent evangelist. I just don’t feel comfortable revealing their name in this forum.

I personally think people write these articles either to boost their circulation or to create controversy. A fair understanding of the Word of God will not prompt people to write in this manner. God has used women – (Deborah, Priscilla, Phebe, Abigail) of the Bible in their times for his glory.

I wonder what we can do collectively and individually from passing these kind of misguided ideas to our next generation?

God Bless

Ann

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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 10:55:00 PM Close
Dear Sister Ann in Christ,

<<Not every question will turn into a debate if the questioner has an understanding of how to behave in the presence of God. Whether we are in the Bible study or any other meetings we (bros & sis) are in the presence of God. >>

The answer what I was trying to tell you in in the above post of your, we are in the presence of God, Apostle Paul why he writes in 1 corinthians 11 and 14 is because the women during that time which had come in from gentile beleifs started questioning and confusng the elders and the saints of the gathering , and thats where Apostle Paul tells them to ask thier husband which was thier tradition during that time, of course we are in the era of grace, we have the liberty to express our views, somethings we follow from the scriptures, some we twist according to our tune , As sister Judy wrote <<it is a case of women educating themselves with the scriptures and trying to get answers. When that happens, a result is to ask the "why's" and "why not's" and "what if's".>> There is no harm in asking the question but as per the scripture permits, let scriptures be our guideline, <<One important aspect of education is to question blind beliefs or handed down traditions which don't make sense. >> If the assemblies were following blind beleifs , sister I leave it upto you, our grandparents/ forefathers they read the scriptures in its original way the knowledge they had , they didnt have bible commentaries or internet ot visual medias where thier faith was questioned, they hold fast what the scriptures taught them , and thier was a discipline in the assembly, in the family thier was a decorum and the same in the assembly , in the family, when wives starts questioning thier husbands for each and every thing ,there are children who are watching the parents where the level of mutual repect they measure of the parents ,and there are chances drifting away from the scriptural truth. And this generation it has already happened.

Yours in Christ
Samuel.V.J

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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 11:50:09 PM Close
Dear brothers & sisters in Christ,
A summary of my replies from my each posts
1-The talents should be appreciated for writing , but it shouldnt be in any way used for teaching the saints.
2-<<Sisters if to ask question , the scriptures says ask your husband, if not married, her father, if in a sunday school thier teachers,if none of them can answer, ask in personal those who are well versed>> Sure she can.

3-<<suppose you are taking the Bible Study, and I'm there, and I can't understand something you said, so can't I ask you at the end, in person, as to explain what you meant in that portion, or suppose, I don't agree with you in some place, as I feel that, thats not what i learnt from the Scriptures, can't I ask the question to you?>> Yes you can personally.

<<tell me precisely, suppose in cases like me, where we aren't married yet, nor are our parents in the Lord, i.e., unsaved.>> As I wrote in my previous post <<ask in personal those who are well versed>> with the scriptures .There is not at all any harm.

4-<<There no scriptural (Word of God) writers among the women is correct, does that mean women (sisters in Christ) not to write.>>

My reply <<The talents should be appreciated for writing , but it shouldnt be in any way used for teaching the saints.>> And to add not to criticise by anyway the gathering and the sanctity of the scriptures.

We do praise our various sisters whom have written various hymns through which we glorify the Lord.

5-I have written what has been my understanding from the scriptures.<< The pattern some of us have seen back in Kerala, in some assemblies such as my home assembly, where a woman was given the freedom to share her testimony while men were present seems to be most biblically correct pattern.>> I too compleletly agree.


Contd/-
Samuel V.J

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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 16 Oct 2007 11:53:31 PM Close
Contd/-
6-A debate starts with a small question and when the answers doesnt suit the our expected answer another counter question arises up and hence a debate happens, Is it advisable to have such types of debates when elderly brethren, grandparents, parents , husband is present there in the gathering, I leave it upto you all how you analyze the scenario.
7-The answer what I was trying to tell you in in the above post of your, we are in the presence of God, Apostle Paul why he writes in 1 corinthians 11 and 14 is because the women during that time which had come in from gentile beleifs started questioning and confusng the elders and the saints of the gathering , and thats where Apostle Paul tells them to ask thier husband which was thier tradition during that time, of course we are in the era of grace, we have the liberty to express our views, somethings we follow from the scriptures, some we twist according to our tune
8-<<it is a case of women educating themselves with the scriptures and trying to get answers. When that happens, a result is to ask the "why's" and "why not's" and "what if's".>> There is no harm in asking the question but as per the scripture permits, let scriptures be our guideline, <<One important aspect of education is to question blind beliefs or handed down traditions which don't make sense. >> If the assemblies were following blind beleifs , sister I leave it upto you, our grandparents/ forefathers they read the scriptures in its original way the knowledge they had , they didnt have bible commentaries or internet ot visual medias where thier faith was questioned, they hold fast what the scriptures taught them , and thier was a discipline in the assembly, in the family thier was a decorum and the same in the assembly , in the family,


Yours in Christ
Samuel.V.J

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 17 Oct 2007 2:35:53 AM Close
Dear Bro. Tom J

Quote:
“Reply by : tomj Since : 16 Oct 2007 8:09:19 AM
The pattern we see in the Western Assemblies and those following such pattern of absolute silence and requesting a woman to wear the head-cover do not seem making any biblical sense.”

Requesting a woman to wear the head-cover do not seem making any biblical sense?
How do define the biblical sense?
Is it based on the Word of God? Is the head-cover issue taught in the scripture?

What is the meaning of the following verses?

1Co 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
1Co 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
1Co 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
1Co 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

Following Articles are the reply to the issue, which can be seen in the following threads:

(1) THE WOMAN’S HEAD COVERING
http://www.users.on.net/~joeflorence/


(2) Headcoverings in Scripture
http://www.users.on.net/~joeflorence/hc.htm


(3) Should Christian Women Wear A Head Covering In The Church? Is That Covering
Her Hair or Hat?
Should Christian Women Wear a Covering in the Church?

http://www.users.on.net/~joeflorence/hgmheadcovering.htm

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 17 Oct 2007 3:13:48 AM Close
Sister in Christ can pray but it is not be in public or in a leading prayers.

1Ti 2:8 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting;

Comments by William MacDonald
B. Regarding Men and Women (2:8-15)
2:8 The subject of public prayer is now resumed, and this time our attention is directed to those who should lead the people of God in prayer. The introductory words I desire express Paul's active and inspired desire in this matter.
In the original language of the NT, there are two words which may be translated men. One word means mankind in general, whereas the other means men in contrast to women. It is the second word that is used here. The apostle's instruction is that public prayer should be led by the men rather than by the women. And it means all the men, not just the elders.
The expression everywhere may be taken to mean that any individual Christian may pray at any time, no matter where he may be. But since the subject here seems to be public prayer, it would be better to understand this verse as saying that wherever a mixed group of Christians is gathered together for prayer, it is the men and not the women who should lead in this exercise.

Should Women Speak in the Church Meeting?
By Robert E. Billings, Jr.

http://www.users.on.net/~joeflorence/shouldwomenspeak.htm

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 17 Oct 2007 5:25:26 AM Close
Dear Sam B,

“The pattern we see in the Western Assemblies and those following such pattern of absolute silence and requesting a woman to wear the head-cover do not seem making any biblical sense.”

We have discussed this subject elsewhere and I wrote what I see from the scriptures there. Since this is not the main subject here can we discuss the head-cover issue in another thread, if needed?

I would appreciate if you could look up what I wrote in the other thread.

[As a side note… It was interesting to see Robert Billing’s article on the net. Robert or Bob and I are good friends. He wrote this article about 19 yrs ago and I was one of the three people he gave this article for proof reading and comments.

Also, the reason he wrote this article was because of my comments about how the Kerala assemblies used to have sisters get up and share a testimony or read a portion from the scriptures after the Lord's supper service. He felt that it was totally inappropriate. So, that is the background of this article.

We still maintain good friendship although we agree to disagree on this issue of ‘absolute silence’.]

Regards,

Tom J

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 17 Oct 2007 6:02:26 AM Close
Dear mom23,

Let me answer your first question………….. “Is the verses referring to women in reference to the topic in the chapter?” During the course of this answer I will try to cover your second question [what does it mean.. as the law also says?]

Your question is to see whether 1 Cor 34-35 be taken in the context of the whole chapter? You are right. It has to be taken in the context of the whole chapter. Yet we need to recognize the universal principles on submission here.

God intended to have gender defined roles in the lives of people. One of the designs of creation and the result of the Fall was the submission of women. [Gen 3:16]

1 Tim 2:11-14 “Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.”

So the principle of submission is universal, not bound by culture or location.

1 Cor 14 & 1 Tim 2 deal with the conduct of women in the church. Eph 5: 22-24 & 1 Peter 3 deal with the domestic front. Everywhere we see the need for submission by women as a biblical mandate.

The apostles used strong arguments to prove headship; the creation laws of Genesis, the universal practices of the churches, the order within the Godhead, the command of Jesus Christ & the Christ-Church relationship.

Woman may be highly gifted teachers and leaders, but those are not to be exercised over men in the services of the church. Jesus Christ demonstrated this submission to the Father and He expects His followers willingly submit to the God-ordained order. God’s Spirit cannot and will not be in control where women take upon themselves roles that are restricted to men.


Contd.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 17 Oct 2007 6:03:38 AM Close
So, it is improper or shameful or disgraceful for a woman to speak in church. [1 Cor 14:34] The word ‘speak’ should be understood in the realm of what is described in 1 Tim 2: 11-14. It stands for teaching or speaking authoritatively, the same Greek word we see in Heb 1:1.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO SAY –‘JUST AS THE LAW ALSO SAYS’?

“Just as the law also says”- This means the pattern of submission or its principle originated in the OT and it is reaffirmed in the NT. Such pattern we see in the creation order as well as in the Jewish order of worship. No women were allowed speak at the Jewish Synagogues. The apostle must have summed up this and said; ‘the law also says’. This universal truth is established by looking into the creation account earlier by the Apostle.

ASK THEIR OWN HUSBANDS AT HOME?

“If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home.” Since we do not see such prohibition in 1 Tim 2, it is reasonable to assume that there was some apparent reason for this prohibition. It might be impossible to see what exactly Paul had in mind when he wrote this. So, the next best thing would be to base that passage on any other parallel passages, dealing with the same theme. 1 Tim 2 is certainly helpful.

The implication is that certain women were out of order, as they were with tongues and prophesying, and were asking questions in the church service at Corinth. This could very well be questioning the validity of certain prophesying and the subsequent judging of prophesies.


Contd.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 17 Oct 2007 6:04:27 AM Close
So, Paul is laying the ground rule ---

If they desired to learn, the church was no place for them to express their questions in a disruptive way. Rather they are asked to seek the help of their husbands. Paul must be implying any one of the following or any combination of it or all of it.

(a) Have your husband diligently study and answer your questions; in turn serves as an exhortation to the husband as well, to take the matters of God seriously and be prepared to answer your wife’s questions;

(b) At homes, in those days in particular, husbands held a place of authority and the Holy Spirit is indirectly teaching that women should learn the scriptures from someone who is an authority figure;

(c) Women must seek out male (leaders), preferably within the immediate family, if not, elders;

(d) And privately, in the home settings, where the individual’s question can be dealt with, giving the proper seriousness unhurriedly. [A small group bible study might be a comparable one for today’s needs; in the absence of a believing husband or in case of having a newly saved husband.]

But the over-riding principle is of submission and proper order and not absolute silence as some might even argue.

The main object, based on the context was to prevent chaotic situation in the Corinthian church; Paul was not preventing women from studying the scriptures. He is not suggesting unmarried or widowed women must not study the word either. Paul wanted to establish the proper biblical order as we see in 1 Tim 2 in the church service. “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.”

There are times in informal meetings and Bible studies where it is proper for men and women to share equally in exchanging questions and insights. But when the church comes together as a body to worship God in a formal setting, His standards are clear; the role of leadership is reserved for men.

There is lot more to be said on this subject, but let me conclude here for now.

Tom J

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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 17 Oct 2007 6:29:38 AM Close
Dear Br.Tom in Christ,

Though sis.Judy should reply, let me take the lead for giving the thanks for the elaborate explanation on the topic. I was just telling the practical aspects when there can be 'noes' and 'yes' when elderly brethren , parents , husband are seated. And usually till date in India we dont see that, because sister try to ask thier doubts and querries personally.


Thank you brother
Yours in Christ
Samuel.V.J

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Reply by : mom23   View Profile   Since : 17 Oct 2007 1:37:28 PM Close
Dear Bro. Samuel,
I realize your perception and fears. But with all due respect sometimes the perceptions of women are very, very different from a male point of view.

The question of family decorum...it is based on your understanding of what is family decorum.
I based my post on talking with a lot of older women...way older. I would listen when they would talk...their life, their perceptions, their views, their relationships etc.
I have even listened to the men-their stories about their life/work/choices.....it is intersting the things you learn just by listening.
Life was hard for them, but the description of what the male and female in a family were supposed to do (gender roles) then is different from now.
I know of so many families where men felt men's authority over women (according to the scripture, they say ) includes physical abuse...when a wife didn't obey them. This is just an example...it did not exist everywhere, but it was more prevalent than today.

It is not a question of women giving the wrong message to the younger generation by questioning each and everything a husband does....(there are extremes too), but males and females approach a problem differently sometimes and a solution may require compromise, on both sides...it is not because she doesn't recognize his God-given position in the family, but analysing a solution that works best for the family in the long run.

In the case of children, the security of the family unit i.e. when they see that parents resolve their conflicts with respect/honor/love and prayer (without resorting to name-calling/abuses/unecessary nagging & throwing dishes) it shows a healthy relationship, where questioning/conflict will occur, but how, as parents, you resolve it shows spiritual respect and maturity...it is an unconscious but a very important testimony of how a God ordained union, a marriage, should be.
And you are right,it is a message they carry with them to their own marriages.
I hope I haven't offended you.

A fellow sister,
Judy.

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Reply by : mom23   View Profile   Since : 17 Oct 2007 1:54:24 PM Close
Dear Bro. Tom,

Thank you so much for the post and taking the time to do this.From you post I understand that...
1. That the vs. in 1 Cor. was in context to the church at Corinth and it's choatic situation.
2. The silence was according to what is said in 1 Tim. which pertains to not teaching/asurping authority the men, in church settings, but to learn in silence.
3. Questioning, clearing doubts should be done in private or informal gatherings.

A couple of questions though...

1. What exactly was the context with which Paul brought up the issue of women's silence in 1 Cor.14:34,35. Why bring it up in between the topic of tongues and prophesy ?

2. In 1 Tim.2 vs 9 onwards talks about the conduct of women not only in church but generally. So what does vs.15 have in context with the other verses ? Meaning how is it connected ?

Sorry if I am taking the discussion away from the original intent...I do apologize sis.Ann.

Thank you,
Judy.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 17 Oct 2007 2:23:03 PM Close
Dear Judy,

A quick note ---

question 1 >>>>> "Why bring it up in between the topic of tongues and prophesy ?"

Chapter 14: 6-33a; deal with tongue & Prophesy.

33b - 38 ---- cover the order in the church..

Verse 39 --- It is a concluding (wrap up)verse.

This is how I see it.. If you see it differently, please explain.

--------------------------------

1 Tim 2:15 is a difficult verse to understand and explain. But I will do my best later on this evening.[If you explain the first question further I could include that also]

Regards,

Tom J

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Reply by : mom23   View Profile   Since : 17 Oct 2007 2:51:53 PM Close
Bro.Tom,
What I meant was why did Paul bring the 2 verse in between the topic...now once again I am understanding it literally, and it seems to be coming out nowhere...a little going of topic and then back...so why did he specifically mention it..?

vs. 33 - "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."

and then it is..

vs 34, 35 - "Let your women.....in the church."

vs.36 - "what came in the word of God out from you or came it unto you only?"

vs.37 - "If any man think himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge...."

Do you get my form of thought on this ?

Regards,
Judy.

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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 18 Oct 2007 2:19:11 AM Close
Dear sister Judy in Christ,
<<I hope I haven't offended you.>> Never, how can I when discussing with a sister in Christ.

With due respect I would oppose to some of the quotes of your post,
Sister , what do you feel, the headship of family to done by whom ? Sure a husband and wife have equal rights in a family , but as per the scriptures and practically the male member, husband who should be mentally and physically strong has to have a upper hand in the family life, where he takes certain decision, and the family adheres, and certainly in obtaining opinions with his wife irrespective of Physique, qualification , Job and a spiritual family without any regrets follows it. What happens now is somewhat a differnt scenario, now qualification, Job and physical appearance have come in front, and certain places wives take over the charge of the husband because they earn more than thier husbands and decisions are bieng handled one sided, which I hope because of less spiritual perspective, and in this case the children are in a great fear of wandering away from the truth, please dont get offended, for ex. a mother of the age of 45 is much concious about her physical beauty always in beauty parlour doing cosmetics overtaking the husbands instruction , she has a daughter of the age of college going, what example can be the mother to the daughter, she will have a much more beauty concious , for what ? A son will also go in his own way, not to fear anyone

This all I have observed in the recent days, mothers are good earning in thier profession and husbands are hesitating to stop them in taking domestic decisions because they dont have any voice at home and there is a misbalance. Sister, the divorce rate among our brethren believers are alarming.I hope due to the above said reason, I personally know six cases whose fathers are hoped to be the elders of various assembly.

Contd/-
Samuel.V.J

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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 18 Oct 2007 2:20:09 AM Close
contd/-

Sister Judy
I am not against any sister writing any spiritual article for the spiritual edification of the fellow brethren and I appreciate it , but I am against any sister who use the pen to question the sanctity of the scripture and who does the call of unity among sisters to challenge the decorum of the assembly and the brethren. I have not read the article of what sis.Ann is referring to, if the article is for the glory of Heavenly father, I do appreciate and encourage. Sister those who have the talent, let them write for Gods glory and never use for the creating factions in the gathering, if such types of articles are published, sure elderly brethren are likely to respond.

I hope sister you will not be offended.

Yours in Christ
Samuel.V.J

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Reply by : mom23   View Profile   Since : 18 Oct 2007 8:43:53 AM Close
Thank you bro.Samuel,
You do not offend me at all...you are one of the few graciuos brothers on this forum and I always appreciate and respect that attitude of yours.

I understand your perception, you looked at a different scenario and you are right....the unknowing message we give our children is very important. The spousal relationship is not the place for pride and ego or vanity of any sort.

We need to pray for families and pray that they don't allow Satan with his various viles to ruin God's order for a family unit, but allow God to shape the path and choices they make.

In Christ,
Judy.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 19 Oct 2007 8:17:36 AM Close
Dear Judy,

[I am just answering one of your questions here. God willing, the other question(s) may be answered soon.]

I Tim 2: 12-15 --- “And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.”

YOUR QUESTION ----

You have asked about 1 Tim 2:11 -15.“What is the connection between these verses with women's silence? These verses also indicate that a woman has a "saving" through childbearing and her spiritual life after...or am I understanding this wrong? What is the connection with the previous 2 verses i.e. 1 Tim. 3:11,12?” [I am sure you meant chapter 2:11-12]

ANSWER ---

Verse 12 – “And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.”

This is very clear. It is Paul’s clear instruction regarding the woman’s role in the church.

Verse 13-14 – “For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.”

Contd.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 19 Oct 2007 8:19:17 AM Close
Paul is teaching that a woman’s subordinate role is according to God’s original plan of creation. Adam was formed first and then Eve; so in creative order God chose to give man the leadership and protective role. Eve was created as a suitable helper.

Eve moved away from that protective umbrella and usurped the headship by making a decision against God’s command. What happened in Eden is a confirmation that woman must be under the headship and protection of her husband. Adam then violated his headship role and followed Eve and the subsequent generation plunged into sin.

All of the above happened because God’s original design and role for husband and wife had been violated. But being the head of the family Adam was held accountable for the sin of the whole humanity. (Rom 5:12 -21 & 1 Cor 15:21-22) One man is held accountable for bringing sin into the world.


SAVED BY CHILDBEARING ---

Verse 15 – “Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.”

In verse 13-14, Paul talks about the first woman - Eve’s failure and subsequent sin. This sin brought shame, punishment, pain, tears, into the lives of humanity. But God designed a plan to ‘redeem’ or ‘save’ her from her shame, punishment etc. even while living in this world.

[This word ‘redeem’ is not used in the sense of eternal salvation, but in a sense as we say; ‘yes-I redeemed myself by doing something correctly, after making a mistake. An illustration - I play in a volleyball league and occasionally I make simple mistakes of serving the ball into the net or hitting it out of bounds - unforced errors; immediately after making such mistakes I would say ‘okay Guys, I will redeem myself’, which means I will make extra effort in making a difficult play, so it would balance out. This is the sense that we need to understand this word ‘saved’.

Contd.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 19 Oct 2007 8:19:42 AM Close
How can a woman ‘redeem or save’ herself by childbearing?

Since mothers spend far greater time with their children than their fathers, they do have the unique opportunity for rearing godly children. While a woman may have led the humanity into sin, women have the privilege of leading many into godliness by preparing the lives of her own children or other children that she is caring for.

Those remain unmarried or those who do not have children do not need to consider this as an impediment. God looks at how we use our resources, our talents that are entrusted to us.

The last part of the verse shows the persevering spirit of a Christian mother. She is pictured as a self-disciplined person, portraying Christian virtues; such as faith, love, holiness & self-control.

She is constantly been watched by those ‘little beady eyes’. So the exhortation is that a Christian mother should show consistent and non-pretentious walk, displaying the Christian virtues as listed above and also, respecting the God-ordained roles in their lives.

No success can compensate for failure in the home. The most valuable gift you can give your family is a good example.

[I purposely avoided the incorrect, yet, somewhat common interpretations, such as this passage is speaking about the birth of Jesus Christ or it is about the preservation of the mothers during child-birth etc. They do not stand the test of proper contextual interpretation.]

Regards,

Tom J

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 19 Oct 2007 8:37:33 AM Close
Dear Judy,

I just realized I didn’t answer part of your question; “What is the connection between these verses with women's silence?”

Verses 13-15 are not directly linked to women’s silence. They flow in as part of women’s role. Also, they serve as an exhortation in regard to the importance of child rearing & an encouragement to stay focused while going through the arduous journey of motherhood.

Regards,

Tom J

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Reply by : kbr   View Profile   Since : 20 Oct 2007 8:14:13 AM Close
Dear Brethren/Sisters, (Part1)

Regarding the participation in the assemblies by women, let me add the following: This is not to defend any thought, but only experiences from three assemblies, in which I have been a member on different occasions.

In my home assembly – this is a village assembly with around 100 years stand and one of the largest brethren assemblies in Kerala, where I attended for a long time from my childhood, there was an ammachi, who had been giving her testimony once in a while. She came from a denominational background, but a few of her children are non believers, her request almost all the days were prayer for her children those who are not saved. The church prays for her children on this testimony. I remember another ammachi, who also came from a denominational background recently and very much interested in gospel work – one of her sons is an evangelist, she tells her testimony at least once in a month, where she narrates her experiences in the month while visiting sick people, unbelievers etc and prayer request for those who have been saved by her presentation of gospel. Let me tell frankly, all believers are eager to hear her words for praise every time. I understand this still continues there. The church allowed such testimonies of sisters after the worship meeting. Now also it is being practiced in this church and it is being used for the Glory of God.

Another church - this is a semi urban assembly in Kerala, where I had been a member for 5 years, there also sisters are allowed to give testimonies. All sisters should tell their testimonies at least once in a year. There also sisters use it wisely for the Glory of God.

cont...2

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Reply by : kbr   View Profile   Since : 20 Oct 2007 8:16:47 AM Close
Part 2

In the church – this is not in India, but a Malayalam assembly, where I am a member now, there is no permission for sisters to talk, even in special testimony meetings. Even at the watch night services and the coming days all should say testimonies, but sisters are not allowed. They have only one meeting fortnightly, where no brothers will be present. They are allowed to speak only here.

Now, what I understood from the Bible:

Mary sat at the feet of Christ to study from Him. We cannot say that she did not ask any questions to Him, while learning from Jesus. Jesus Christ recommended Mary’s decision to study the Word from Him.

Jesus talked about worship to a Samaritan lady and about salvation to a Jewish teacher.

Jesus appeared to Mary first, before appearing to any of His disciples.

Acts 1:14 “These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.”

Apostle John wrote a letter to a lady.

I am not commenting on any of the above lines.

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Reply by : mom23   View Profile   Since : 24 Oct 2007 10:10:25 PM Close
Thank you Bro.Tom
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