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# 01444 :  Believers' Baptism
Believers Baptism.

This thread staring because of trds following question

Reply by : trds Since : 25 Oct 2007 6:42:35 AM (In the thread Brethren Assemblies.)
2. They do not accept believers baptism, which is an ordinances given by Jesus Christ himself.
“Ans: What is 'believers baptism' and what was that ordinance given by Jesus Christ. Please write.”

In the following words Jesus Christ ordinance about baptism can be seen.

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Mar 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Reply by : trds Since : 26 Oct 2007 6:47:39 AM (In the thread Brethren Assemblies)
“About your question whether I had baptism, Yes. I had immersion baptism when I was of the age 21 years. Why I had? Yes. It was proclamation to the world that I had an internal change and accepted Jesus as my Savior. That Baptism did not give me salvation. Salvation preceded Baptism.”

By the above quote ‘trds’ himself proclaimed that he accepted Jesus Christ as his Saviour, by that belief he himself underwent water baptism by immersion.

(1) Your testimony or acts itself is an answer to what is Believers’ baptism.
(2) It is also a proof that it is by immersion.

Yours in Christ
Samkutty N. George.

Post by : sambudhanoor  View Profile    since : 27 Oct 2007


Reply by : trds   View Profile   Since : 27 Oct 2007 2:47:27 AM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor,

Is the above post addressed to me to answer you or some others and me to clarify about 'Believers' baptism"

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 27 Oct 2007 3:18:28 AM Close
Dear trds

You can answer if you are willing.

What I posted is the question you are asked to me is answered and practiced by yourself.

What I posted earlier in other thread the differences between the separated brethrens and other denominations are following:

1. Priesthood of every believer ( Marthomites and others do the services by their appointed Priest).

2. They do not accept believers baptism, which is an ordinances given by Jesus Christ himself.

3. They have appointed priest and other hierarchies. Their hierarchies like Bishops and Archbishop wear Scarf in their head, which is also against the word of God.

4. Their churches are not independent but have controlling heads.

5. Orthodox (Jacobites) and Catholics pray for the dead, pray and to worship the dead Saints.

6. Install idols in their churches.

7. Appointed priests are the mediator between God and man in Catholics and Jacobites. Etc. (They also project Jesus Christ mother Mariam and their dead saints are mediators also).

These practices are against the Word of God.

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Reply by : trds   View Profile   Since : 27 Oct 2007 3:24:02 AM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor,

My testimony is about my about my belief. That is not a proof that Baptism by immersion alone is right. Please write down who gave the phrase, "Believer's Baptism" to mean Baptism in the Bible? Did you read that Jesus was immersed? Did you read that Eunuch was immersed?
I will write more after hearing from you.

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 27 Oct 2007 6:45:00 AM Close
Dear trds

Your Baptism itself is a Believer’s baptism, you accepted Jesus Christ as your Personal Saviour based on that belief you obeyed the Lord in water baptism, a believer’s baptism can be called as believer’s baptism.

Enuch’s baptism was believer’s baptism, he said he believe in Jesus Christ based on his belief he baptized.

Act 8:36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?"
Act 8:37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
Act 8:38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

The word “immersion” brought by you, you said you obeyed the baptism by immersion in water, which is also based on your belief. What is the basis of your belief, is it based on the Word or God or otherwise?

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Reply by : trds   View Profile   Since : 27 Oct 2007 6:54:10 AM Close
Dear Sambudhanoor,

The point is not about my belief. The point is about the immersion baptism which "Brethren" think is the only right way of Baptism, and this was one of the reasons why "Brethren" broke away from Orthodox churches, or differ from evangelical churches. This controversy is in the light of "Brethren Assemblies" proving themselves that their ways are only right. Also because, there was another brother who pointed out that those who attend other evangelical churches are excommunicated by "Brethren". I never heard of such a situation. That was the reason why I brought up this issue.

Now coming to your point, when Philip wanted to baptize eunuch they did not see less water and much water to compare and then prefer to choose much water for baptism. They also went in to the water. Before that eunuch confessed that he believed that "Jesus is the Son of God". Now please read the verses before this conversation.

Acts 8:26-39
26 Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, “Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is desert.
27 So he arose and went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury, and had come to Jerusalem to worship,
28 was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet.
29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go near and overtake this chariot.”
30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him.
32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this: “He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so He opened not His mouth.
33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away, and who will declare His generation? For His life is taken from the earth.”

Contd...2

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Reply by : trds   View Profile   Since : 27 Oct 2007 6:59:11 AM Close
>>2

Please concentrate on verses:

32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this: “He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so He opened not His mouth.
33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away, and who will declare His generation? For His life is taken from the earth.”
34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?”
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him.

This baptism is spoken of in Isaiah:

Isaiah 52:13-15
13 Behold, My Servant shall deal prudently; he shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.
14 Just as many were astonished at you, so His visage was marred more than any man, and His form more than the sons of men;
15 So shall He sprinkle many nations. Kings shall shut their mouths at Him; for what had not been told them they shall see, and what they had not heard they shall consider.

And also,

Ezekiel 36:24-29
24 "For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.
25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
29 I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses.”

If you read about the way Jesus was baptized it is not said there that Jesus was immersed. Please read the verses very clealy.

What I mean is that God did not want to restrict certain kind of baptism as the right way of doing.

Contd...3

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Reply by : trds   View Profile   Since : 27 Oct 2007 7:09:23 AM Close
>>>3

Otherwise the verses should have clearly said that John the Baptist baptized Jesus by immersion. or, Philip immersed eunuch.

This also about sprinkling. The pourning of water over the body from top over the head is another way of baptism. You can not say, all the other ways of baptism are wrong. On the other thread I have quoted what "baptizo" means. It has several meanings. I am not Greek scholar but I have those meanings taken from very reliable sources; not the ones who just claim that they know Greek or Hebrew.

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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 27 Oct 2007 7:35:56 AM Close
Dear brother Samkutty in Christ,

Shall I interfere in your discussion with permissions.

I would request the readers to go through this link:I know several of us might have gone through it:
http://www.brfwitness.org/Articles/2003v38n2.htm
<<Editorial
March/April, 2003
Volume 38, Number 2
In 1708 Alexander Mack and seven others gathered on the banks of the Eder River in Schwarzenau, Germany, to begin a new fellowship of believers in Jesus Christ. This group had covenanted together to follow and obey the teachings of the New Testament, and to put aside their previous denominational affiliations.

The public means of this covenant was baptism. The eight persons at Schwarzenau had all received baptism by sprinkling when they were babies. However, as they studied the New Testament, they found no instance-explicit or implicit--that babies were baptized anywhere in New Testament times. Baptism was administered to believers in Jesus Christ. Only those who trusted Christ for salvation and made public acknowledgment of their faith were baptized.

Early Brethren also studied church history and practice, and determined that most indicators pointed to the practice of baptism by immersing a believer three times under the water. This reflected both the literal meaning of the Greek word for baptism and the involvement of the Trinity--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -in the work of salvation.

So the original eight agreed together to be baptized in such a fashion, and begin together in their renewed understandings of Christian doctrine. While Alexander Mack was clearly the leader of this group, he desired that they should not be identified by a man's name (as a number of other groups were known). So Mack was baptized by another. One of the others was chosen by lot (drawing on the New Testament practice found in Acts 1, where the early Church selected a replacement for Judas by lot). The one chosen, administered baptism by trine immersion to Mack, and then Mack baptized the other seven.>>

Contd/-
Samuel.V.J

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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 27 Oct 2007 7:37:37 AM Close
Contd/-
Throughout most of Brethren history then, baptism by trine immersion has been taught, practiced, and treasured by Brethren people. In recent years, however, our distinctive form of baptism has been neglected or ignored by many within the Church of the Brethren. While at one time perhaps too much emphasis was laid on baptism and its relationship to saving faith, today it appears that little solid teaching is given on this subject.

Some pastors come from other denominations where baptism seems incidental to the church-and other leaders within the church explain that "this is the way we Brethren do baptism"-so scant attention is paid to the biblical and historical reasons for doing so. As a result, many believe that our practice of baptism is merely a denominational oddity. It is downplayed in denominational literature, neglected in pulpits, and sometimes derided in our conversation.

The article in this issue of the BRF WITNESS is an attempt to set forth the New Testament teaching on baptism, to draw on some historical data supporting it, and to call on the Church of the Brethren to renew its teaching on this important New Testament rite.

--Craig Alan Myers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

New Testament Baptism
by Craig Alan Myers
Baptism constitutes one of the most readily identifiable Christian rites or ordinances. An "ordinance" is a New Testament practice that symbolizes a great spiritual truth, and usually requires more than one person to practice it. With baptism, we find the great spiritual truth and the need for one to administer baptism and another to receive it.

Baptism has always meant much to Christians in the Church of the Brethren. It is one of our hallmarks as a fellowship. It is one thing that marks us off from other professing Christians, and has since the very beginning when the Church of the Brethren began in August 1708 in Schwarzenau, Germany. >>

Contd/-
Samuel.V.J

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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 27 Oct 2007 7:39:37 AM Close
Contd/-
Alexander Mack, the first minister of the Brethren, wrote in the first Brethren tract, "We must be baptized according to the teaching of Jesus Christ and the apostles" (Complete Writings, page 9). He then announced the intention of the first Brethren to obey Christ in baptism. In the history of the Church of the Brethren, probably no other subject has been considered so thoroughly. In fact, the Church of the Brethren was once called the German Baptist Brethren as a reflection of our mode of baptism. More recently, however, our former teaching on this matter has been neglected, and accommodation to other baptismal understandings has been the rule.

We want to consider some basic Bible teaching on baptism, hear the testimony of the early Church Fathers, and listen to more recent writings on the subject, all dealing with the message and the method of New Testament baptism. It is not our purpose to needlessly offend, but to state clearly and forthrightly what we believe the Bible has to say.
Water baptism is a New Testament rite, intended for those who have committed themselves to Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord. It has been taught and practiced, with varying conformity to the New Testament ideal, by nearly every kind of Christian group since the time of the Apostles. Many symbolic meanings have been attached to baptism, and some of these doctrinal teachings have direct bearing on the manner in which water baptism is practiced.

WHO IS TO BE BAPTIZED?

The New Testament spells out who is to receive the rite of baptism. In Acts 18:8, we see that those baptized there were ones who had heard the Gospel and believed its message. Other passages in Acts tie baptism to believing with an open heart (Acts 16:1415), and gladly receiving the message of Christ's death and resurrection (Acts 8:12; 2:41).

Contd/-
Samuel.V.J

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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 27 Oct 2007 7:41:39 AM Close
Contd/-
It is obvious from these instances, that the persons whose baptisms were recorded in Acts, were capable of hearing, understanding, receiving, and believing what Peter, Paul and the other Apostles taught concerning Christ. Acts 2:38 further indicates that baptism is for those who believe the message of Christ, and repent of (turn away from) their sins.

There is no hint whatever that babies were baptized in the New Testament, but only those who were able to consciously trust Christ. The only possible exception to this could be Acts 16:33, where it says, "And immediately he [the Philippian jailer] and all his family was baptized." But notice that no ages are given. The jailer's household could have consisted of those who were adults or youth. To be consistent with the historical record in Acts, we would hold that here too, those who were baptized were those who heard the Gospel message and believed it. Read together with Acts 2:38, baptism is for those who are aware of and sorry for their sins which they have committed. Babies, though tainted with the sin of Adam, are unable to repent of or even understand their sinful acts and attitudes. Brother Hartman Rice wrote, "Anywhere baptism is taught or practiced in the Scriptures, it always follows repentance and believing-something that a baby just couldn't do" (The Biblical Teaching on Water Baptism, page 3).

Some denominations hold that baptism in the New Testament [for the Church] corresponds to circumcision in the Old Testament [for Israel], and thus it is all right to sprinkle or immerse babies. But this is a concept foreign to the New Testament history and practice itself, and for this reason was rejected by the early Anabaptists and the early Brethren.

Baptism is commanded for those who repent of their sins and believe in Christ.

Contd/-
Samuel.V.J

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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 27 Oct 2007 7:43:46 AM Close
Contd/-
WHAT MODE OF IMMERSION SHOULD BE USED?

Even those who agree on baptism by immersion may differ on the specific form or method of performing that immersion. Again, grammar, theology, and history point to a specific kind of immersion for baptism of New Testament believers--trine (or triune) immersion. Trine immersion means being immersed three times in one ritual. It is not three baptisms, but one baptism with three separate actions.

The Greek word "baptizo" requires more than one immersion. The basic word for wash is "bapto." When the "izo" ending is added, it signifies a repeated action. So "baptizo" (in Greek) means "to dip or immerse repeatedly" (A Greek-English Lexicon). Anyone familiar with koine Greek in the first century would have an immediate understanding of "baptizo," and would see it as requiring a repeated immersion into water. The Greek word for "sprinkling" is "rantizo," and would have been used in the New Testament had the early church used that rite.

The Great Commission requires trine immersion. Matthew 28:19 says that we are to baptize "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." A simple diagram of that phrase shows it to have three separate prepositions (even in Greek), which would require the baptismal action be done as one rite with three separate actions or immersions. Some recent translations overlook the repeated prepositions in this verse, and so add to the confusion over the proper mode of baptism.
Honoring the Trinity calls for trine immersion. Again, Matthew 28:19 recognizes each member of the Godhead--and our initiatory rite into the Trinitarian Christian faith reflects our belief in the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All three Persons of the Trinity are mentioned because each One has a part in our salvation. God the Father is the Architect of the plan of salvation; God the Son came to earth and paid the bill for salvation; and God the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin and brings about our surrender to Christ,

Contd/-
Samuel

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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 27 Oct 2007 7:46:39 AM Close
Contd/-
and applies the work of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection to our souls and lives.

The text in Matthew 28 requires Trinitarian action in order to fully complete the Lord's command. By trine immersion-one ritual with three actions-we recognize and give honor and worship to each member of the Godhead. We proclaim ourselves as obedient Trinitarians. As we believe in the Trinity, we should symbolize the Trinity in our entrance into the Trinitarian faith.

Trine immersion can be traced back to the Apostles. The early Church Fathers wrote of baptism frequently. One of the first mentions of baptism outside the New Testament was in the Didache. Sometimes called The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, this was a kind of pastor's manual for early church leaders, and was written about A.D. 100. It says, "But concerning baptism, thus baptize ye: having first recited all these precepts, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in running water." Almost a direct quote of Matthew's Gospel, the implication is strongly for trine immersion as the preferred means of baptism.

Tertullian, A.D. 160-220: "Jesus gave as his last command that they should immerse into the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, not into one person. Therefore, all who believed were immersed. For we are immersed, not once but thrice, at the naming of every person of the Trinity."

Augustine, A.D. 354-430, "In this font, before we dipped your whole body, we asked you, 'Believest thou in God the omnipotent Father?' After you declared that you believed, we immersed three times your heads in the sacred font ... You are rightly immersed three times, you who receive baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, who rose the third day from the dead" (Sermon on the Mystery of Baptism).

Jerome, A.D. 340-420: "We are thrice dipped in water that the mystery of the Trinity may appear to be but one, and therefore though we be thrice put under the water to represent the mystery of the Trinity,

Contd/-
Samuel

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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 27 Oct 2007 7:48:08 AM Close
Contd/-

Augustine, A.D. 354-430, "In this font, before we dipped your whole body, we asked you, 'Believest thou in God the omnipotent Father?' After you declared that you believed, we immersed three times your heads in the sacred font ... You are rightly immersed three times, you who receive baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, who rose the third day from the dead" (Sermon on the Mystery of Baptism).

Jerome, A.D. 340-420: "We are thrice dipped in water that the mystery of the Trinity may appear to be but one, and therefore though we be thrice put under the water to represent the mystery of the Trinity, yet it is reputed to be but one baptism."

Chrysostom, A.D. 347-407 "Christ delivered to his disciples one baptism in three immersions when he said to them, 'Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."'

These were ancient teachers. Numerous others may be quoted in similar fashion in support of trine immersion. "Historically, the early authors and Church fathers unite together in giving a vast amount of testimony supporting Trine Immersion, along with countless historians throughout the ages" (Hodge, Could It be Three? page 31).

We may turn to a more recent respected Christian preacher, John Wesley, the founder of Methodism. "When Mr. Wesley baptized adults professing faith in Christ, he chose to do it by trine immersion if the person would submit to it, judging this to be the apostolic method" (Moore's Life of Wesley, Volume 1, page 425).

Trine immersion is the only form of baptism accepted nearly universally as valid by Christian bodies. While our primary appeal is to the Scriptures, it is useful to consider the attitude of other professing Christian bodies. The Eastern Orthodox Church (the Greek church), which prizes many ancient traditions, baptizes by trine immersion, even though it performs the rite for babies.

Contd/-
Samuel.V.J

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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 27 Oct 2007 7:50:50 AM Close
Contd/-
The church followed trine immersion for a thousand years or more. Even those churches that have abandoned immersion, and practice sprinkling, do it three times.

Finally, trine immersion by a forward motion is the literal application of the Scripture. Romans 6:5 indicates that we are united in the likeness of His death. John 19:30 sheds light on this by saying, "And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit." He bowed His head-a forward movement. We too, are to receive baptism in the same way, bowing our heads in a forward movement. Tertullian wrote, "The Christians were baptized by bowing down with great simplicity, and without pomp or many words."

The complet credit of mys posting goes to<<http://www.brfwitness.org/Articles/2003v38n2.htm>>


Yours in Christ
Samuel.V.J

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Reply by : wilson609   View Profile   Since : 27 Oct 2007 12:36:50 PM Close
Dear bro trds,
Let me at the outset make it clear that I don’t intend in having any argument with you as regards the mode of baptism, since you seem to strongly believe that other modes of baptisms apart from immersion are right.pl let me know if I am wrong in my understanding that immersion baptism alone is the right one.Jonh 3:23 “And John also was baptizing in Aenon, near to Salim, because there was much water there, and they came and were baptized.”Pl note the reason for the choice of the place Aenon, chosen for baptism” BECAUSE THERE WAS MUCH WATER THERE”. Since to immerse a person, a mug full or a basin full is not enough, a place where there was much water was chosen. Also baptism symbolizes our identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus. I was able to witness a couple of baptisms where the baptizer made the person go down in sitting posture and then let him come up. I feel even that is wrong since a person is not buried in sitting posture.bro Pl let us know why in your opinion Aenon was preferred by John
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Reply by : trds   View Profile   Since : 27 Oct 2007 1:14:19 PM Close
Dear Wilson,

Aenon means fountain. There was a fountain 8 miles south of Bethshen and it was north of Jerusalem. Salem was better known during those days than Aenon. John was preaching to multitudes of people there and it was necessary to meet the needs of those multitudes with water and that was why John selected that place. It was merely a supposition that John chose that place for the purpose of administering baptism by immersion and there is no record that he baptized all those came for baptism by immersing them. Few think he chose this place for the purpose of immersion but it is just a supposition. In the article mentioned by Samuel there was argument why man should not be bent forward and dipped three times. This is one such argument raised to prove that one kind of baptism was not the mode God chose to impose on man. Brethren baptise by dragging man backwards; this is utterly wrong. I had such baptism but I had no knowledge of these facts before. The thinking that man is identifying or symbolizes with Jesus in death resurrection and ascension is also just imaginary.

God bless you

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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 28 Oct 2007 7:12:53 AM Close
Dear "TRDS" in Christ,

<<The thinking that man is identifying or symbolizes with Jesus in death resurrection and ascension is also just imaginary.>>

Dear brother what ever we say is either lies or just imaginary.

You had first in another thread was questioning about what is Beleivers Baptism, you yourself had replied on the confirmed statement of the belief of accepting Lord Jesus Christ , then is Baptism compulsory for Salvation, the answer was no, but all those who accepts Lord as thier personal savior were Baptised as per the scriptures. Now the doubt lies what are the types of Baptism. Is immersion Baptism the correct one. Now you have a doubt in the baptism which had been done in the forward or back ward side. Let it be back ward or Forward, the immersion has to be done.
Mark:1
5And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the RIVER of Jordan, confessing their sins.
6And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;
7And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
8I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
9And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
10And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
John:3John
22After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
The third instance of Baptism is of the Eunuch of Acts :8
All instances show enough water to be immersed.
And the early languages translates as Immersions.

WHY ARE ALL THE THREADs AHEAD SUDDENLY


Samuel.V.J


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Reply by : trds   View Profile   Since : 28 Oct 2007 8:36:45 AM Close
Dear Samuel,

The argument arises with these verses to show that man is identified or that baptism by immersion symbolizes, with the death, resurrection and ascension by quoting these verses

It is very hard for me to make you understand and there is no point in making you understand. There were no three incidences. You misunderstood that there were three incidences. Mark incidence and John incidence are one and the same.

Quote:

"WHY ARE ALL THE THREADs AHEAD SUDDENLY"

Why are you asking me this question?

Read my reply to Wilson. You will understand, nay, you will not understand. There was much water from the fountain for feeding the people with water. The following is my last explanation. Indeed I was wasting my time here. Good Bye.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Galatians 2:20)

But please read:

Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. (Romans 6:9)

Christ never died again after his resurrection. But man dies again after baptism. Hence Galatians 2:20 is just imaginary verse to apply to immersion baptism

Why not a person be baptized like the one having been, ”PLANTED” as in Romans 6:5

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (Romans 6:5)

Backward usually symbolizes curse: Judas fell backwards:

As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. (John 18:6)

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Reply by : nelnob1   View Profile   Since : 28 Oct 2007 10:53:12 PM Close
Dear TRDS in Christ,

Dear brother I would not also like to continue any more discussions with you, as you have a sense of superiority complex over everyone in the thread. Thats Good, <<Indeed I was wasting my time here. Good Bye.>>

Read Mark-1 and John -3 once again, are the incidents same ? If yes it upto you, As per my understanding , In Mark Jesus is Baptized by John in river Jordan, and in John, Jesus Baptizes disciples in Judean country side, where John was also baptizing a bit far.
<<John 3:22After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
26And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

Dear brother Good bye, hope to see you in some other thread, my responses in this thread will not continue.


Yours in Christ
Samuel.V.J

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 29 Oct 2007 2:09:14 AM Close
TRDS set an example by obeying the Lord in Water Baptism by immersion.
As you say there are other mode of baptism, why you are chosen Believers Baptism by immersion in water, what was the basis of that action?

When we look at Eunuch’s baptism every right to believe that It was by immersion.

Act 8:38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
Act 8:39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

(1) They went down in to the water
(2) They came up out of water

I have witnessed hundreds of believers’ baptism all are done by immersion in water. Whoever believe and practice the believers’ baptism, they all are doing one mode of baptism, immersion in water.

I never heard or witnessed anyone obeyed the Lord in water baptism except immersion in water.

But nominal Christians are doing child baptism by different ways, sprinkling, pouring etc., which has no basis in the Word of God.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 30 Oct 2007 10:26:09 AM Close
Dear brother Samuel VJ,

In NT, 'pouring' is also called as 'baptism.' 'Sprinkling is never called as 'baptism.'

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 31 Oct 2007 6:20:57 AM Close
Dear Bro. George P Koshy

Will you please mention where in the New Testament "pouring" is called as baptism.

Is this the baptism believers' need to follow?

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Reply by : hithere   View Profile   Since : 3 Nov 2007 4:01:59 PM Close
JESUS NEVER BAPTIZED ANYONE

John 3:22
After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized.

John 4:1-3
Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples), He left Judea and departed again to Galilee.

John 4:1-2 is an explanation of John 3:22. In 3:22, John reveals that Jesus and his disciples were in the land of Judea, and that they were baptizing. In 4:2, the apostle fills us in on the details; telling us that "...Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples)..." If 3:22 contradicts 4:2, then 4:1 also contradicts 4:2! However, 4:2 is an explanation of the previous statements.

There is no contradiction.

http://www.lookinguntojesus.net/ata20020825.htm

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Reply by : samuel.v.j   View Profile   Since : 3 Nov 2007 11:12:11 PM Close
Dear brethren in Christ,

I had suspended my writings in this thread, as I have to clarify one of my post to << Reply by : hithere Since : 3 Nov 2007 16:01:59 >>

I had been replying to "TRDS" of three instances of Baptism where water was more for immersion,1-When John Baptiseth Jesus in river Jordan:: Mark-1, 2- When John Baptiseth people in Aenon: John-3, 3- When Philip Baptiseth Eunuch : Act-8.

Thanks "hithere" for rectifying my mistake on << Reply by : nelnob1 Since : 28 Oct 2007 22:53:12 >> <<Jesus Baptizes disciples in Judean country side>> It should have been Jesus disciples baptizes in Judean country side. I apologise for this error.


My replies will remain suspended in this thread hereafter.


Yours in Christ
Samuel.V.J

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Reply by : hithere   View Profile   Since : 4 Nov 2007 1:23:11 PM Close
I dont believe in child baptism but I found an interesting article.

http://www.imarc.cc/baptize/waswift.html

"I am thoroughly and clearly convinced that pouring or sprinkling water upon a person in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost, is the proper mode of baptism, pouring and sprinkling coming from the same root word".

"There are thousands in our churches who are confused about the mode of water baptism. Many persons have joined immersionist churches simply because they did not understand the full meaning of water baptism."


http://www.imarc.cc/baptize/waswift.html

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 4 Nov 2007 7:49:38 PM Close
'hithere,'

Your posting of 4 Nov 2007 is interesting. Could you provide the "root words" for 'sprinkling' and 'pouring?'

Note: Since I am in California, I may not be able to respond on a timely manner.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : hithere   View Profile   Since : 4 Nov 2007 7:54:52 PM Close
i dont' know anything about root words. I copied from someother place b'coz that was interesting article.
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Reply by : hithere   View Profile   Since : 4 Nov 2007 8:16:03 PM Close
uncle i found interesting question answers also on that web site. the web site is:

http://www.imarc.cc/baptize/baptize.html

some q&a answers as follows

Q. What mode of baptism was prescribed by for inducting one into Holy office?
A. Sprinkling. Num. 8:7.

Q. Then if Jesus was inducted into His public ministry at baptism, what mode must have been used?
A. Beyond all question, to our mind, it was sprinkling.

Q. If Jesus had been baptized by another mode, would He not have broken God's law for public ministers?
A. Yes, when the law said sprinkle, no other mode would suffice.

Q. Was there a law in the Old Testament which required a Jew to be thirty years old before he could minister the Holy things?
A. Yes. Num. 4:2-4, 35, 39, 47; Num. 16:8-9; Num. 8:14-15, 21, 22.

Q. Did John baptize publicly?
A. Yes, Jerusalem and Judea, and all the region round about attended his baptism. Matt. 3:5

Q. Since John was six months older than Jesus, and began his ministry six months earlier than the latter, or when he was thirty years old, how was John set apart to his ministry?
A. Was he not sprinkled according to Old Testament law?

Q. If John was sprinkled at thirty years old, how did he baptize Jesus at the same age?
A. Would there not be a striking contrast, if John was sprinkled, and Jesus was immersed?

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 5 Nov 2007 2:27:47 AM Close
Dear hithere

Your admission is good “I dont believe in child baptism”

There are lot of webs which promotes false doctrines, what you pointed-out is one of that.

Before determining which mode of water baptism is necessary, who need to be baptized is to be determined from the Word of God.

The web thread which you pointed-out is promoting infant baptism.

The question and answers you posted is saying about the practices under the law, we are not under the law, we are under grace.

Jesus Christ’s ordinance about believers’ baptism has no connection of the practices of physical cleansing of the old testament law.

Example:
Num 8:7 Thus you shall do to them to cleanse them: Sprinkle water of purification on them, and let them shave all their body, and let them wash their clothes, and so make themselves clean.

Here the washing of cloth and cleaning the physical body is told.

Jesus Christ’s ordinance is as follows:

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

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Reply by : hithere   View Profile   Since : 5 Nov 2007 4:55:38 AM Close
i am thinking about matthew 28:19-20. that was given after Jesus resurrection. johns baptizm and Jesus baptism were before new testament time. when new testament came into force? baptism is cleaning the body as per old testament, so that was done to both is it not?
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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 6 Nov 2007 12:21:06 AM Close
Dear hithere

We are discussing about believers’ baptism which had been commanded by our Lord Jesus Christ after his resurrection as seen in Mathew 28: 19-20 & Mark 16: 16.

New Testament Church started at Pentecost as seen in the Act 2, that day onwards whoever believes shall be baptized.

(1) Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

(2) Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

(3) Act 8:13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

(4) Act 8:37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
Act 8:38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

(5) Act 18:8 Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.

(6) Act 10:47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

These are some of the instances from the scripture, which also the believers have to follow presently, which has no connection with Old Testament rituals.

Contd……….

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 6 Nov 2007 12:23:43 AM Close
Some significance of believers baptism

1. It is a commandment from our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (Mat. 28:19-20, Mar
16:16).

2. It is the first step of obedience as practiced by the early Christians (Acts 2:41-42, Acts 8:
35-38, Acts 7: 17-18, Acts 10: 47-48, Acts 16: 31-33)

3. It is public identification with the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour
Jesus Christ (Rom 6: 3-5, Col 2:12)
4. It is a declaration of the believer to walk in the newness of life. (Rom 6:4)

5. It is a good conscience towards the God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1Pet
3: 20-21)

6. It is a public testimony, because it is conducted in the presence of others.

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Reply by : hithere   View Profile   Since : 6 Nov 2007 4:15:02 AM Close

brother thanks for ur posting. in acts 2 when new testament started with 3000 people gettng savd were they baptized by sprinkling, pouring or immersion, or dipping, or half dipping when they stood in water? during john's time also only those believed were baptized and after acts 2 chapter also only those believed were saved, but wht is difference?

suppose i was in gujarat and there lot of water was not there and some body believed and wants baptism quickly, is it wrong to baptize him by sprinkling? shuld we say no you can't have baptism b'coz there is no lot of water?

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 6 Nov 2007 1:33:54 PM Close
‘hithere,’
Part-1

Thank you for the reply and making it plain that you were just reciting what you read in another website. You provided seven questions and answers from that website on 4 Nov 2007 20:16:0.

The following are my observations:

1. In order to establish the mode of baptism as ‘sprinkling,’ the author(s) of your website (please allow me to use this expression to distinguish it from KeralaBrethren.net Forum) used certain Old Testament references. Are you aware of the fact that the references they quoted were originally written in Hebrew? Moses wrote those books in Hebrew and not in Greek. The New Testament was written in Greek.

2. In the Old Testament references, where do we read that ‘sprinkling’ was the mode of baptism? Sprinkling with water was to purify and not to baptize. There were instances in which the sprinkling with blood was also done. This is referred to in Hebrews. In Hebrews, we do not read that as a baptism.

3. In other places, where the mode of baptism as ‘sprinkling’ is mentioned in their answers, they failed to provide any scriptural references. The answers were given without any Scriptural support. Since you brought it on this Forum as an argument that ‘sprinkling’ is a mode of baptism, it is your responsibility to show that it is stated so in the Bible, especially in the New Testament.

4. The Greek word for ‘baptism’ is BAPTIZW and is pronounced as “Baptizo.” Since you failed to provide any scriptural references to your assertion that ‘sprinkling’ is a mode of baptism, please show that from the Scripture. Doing that is your responsibility.

(To be cont. Part-2)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 6 Nov 2007 1:34:38 PM Close
‘hithere,’
Part-2

5. Our dialog started after you wrote that the root word for ‘sprinkle’ and ‘pour’ are the same. In Greek, the words that are translated as ‘pour’ are BALLO, EPICHEO, EKCHEO, EKCHUNO, KATACHEO, and KERANNUMI. The Greek words for “sprinkle” are PROSCHUSIS, RANTIZO, and RANTISMOS. The Greek word that is translated as ‘sprinkling’ in Hebrews 11:28 is PROSCHUSIS and its meaning is “a pouring over” and not ‘a sprinkling over.’ It has the reference to Exodus 12:21-22, where the children of Israel were asked to smear the lintel and the two side posts. There it was not sprinkling, but it was smearing the blood with a bunch of hyssop. Could you tell how these words have the same root, as you wrote?

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : hithere   View Profile   Since : 6 Nov 2007 6:57:48 PM Close
Gpk,
Uncle,

You know lot of greek, but I don't know greek. My first language is telugu. greek or hebrew won't make any differnce for me. when i was in indian armed forces I got three charge sheets. One time my instructor simply framed a charge sheet against me, saying i did not do parade properly and made me run around the baracks three times with rifle in my hands lifted high over the head. He framed a charge sheet saying, 'he failed...' I stood before my big officer and when he was judging I said, i dont' know what he is talking about, I am innocent. He heard me and gave belly full to the instructed and sent me without any punishment. Second time I got charge sheet for not wearing shoe when i sent to police station to collect rifle. they made charge sheet and wrote, 'he failed to...' But when the charge sheet went to my big officer, he asked me why i was not wearing shoe, i told him i was playing table tennis and my ankle got twisted. so he told police officer, why did you charge sheet him silly. big boss left me. third time my boss charge sheeted me saying, 'he failed...' saying I spoke harsh. You know uncle, he was truobling me with his another language that is like your greek, so i told the big boss about this, he said, just go and do parade every evening for three days that is your punishment. So, uncle are you making charge sheet against me,..."you failed to..."
i will tell the boss in heaven that i don't know greek. he will say ok. I know. you go enjoy, feed my sheep.

questions for you: why old testament was written in hebrew and new testament in greek? Why not in greek only?

you know uncle what Exodus 29:21 says. it is about sprinkling. Leviticus 1:11 says about sprinking. and lots of bible lines say sprinkling. circumcision is replaced by baptism. it is sprinkling. Jesus did sprinkling of blood in heaven before the Father in heaven. that is why you are i are saved. I can't believe if you say my friend, who had sprinkling baptism has gone to hell.

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 6 Nov 2007 11:37:34 PM Close
Dear hithere

Above discussion is interesting, Bro. George P Koshy will reply to you, whoever do not believe in Jesus Christ will end up in hell even if he/she got sprinkling or pouring or immersion in water.

John’s baptized his disciples.

Mat 3:4 Now John himself was clothed in camel's hair, with a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey.
Mat 3:5 Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him
Mat 3:6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.

John’s baptism was baptism of repentance, when they believed in Jesus Christ again they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Act 19:4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

I witnessed hundreds of believers baptism all are in one mode immersion in water, myself obeyed the Lord in water baptism by immersion in water. The assemblies or churches who believe and practices believers’ baptism like different Pentecostals, Baptists, Brethren, evangelicals all are doing one mode of water baptism, immersion in water.

I never heard nor witnessed anybody who put their faith in Lord Jesus Christ, obeyed the Lord in water baptism other than immersion in water.

But nominal Christians do infant baptism by pouring or sprinkling etc.

Contd……

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 6 Nov 2007 11:39:23 PM Close
When we look at the scriptures, we have every right to believe that mode of believers’ baptism is by immersion in water.

Joh 3:22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized.
Joh 3:23 Now John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized.

Here baptism was conducted where much water was available, if it pouring or sprinkling there is no need of much water.

When we look at Eunuch’s baptism we can understand that it was by immersion.

Act 8:38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
Act 8:39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

(1) They went down in to the water
(2) They came up out of water

I do not think there is no sufficient water in Gujarat to conduct baptism by immersion. There are evangelist and believers are there who are done and doing believers baptism by immersion. If public pool or river is not available some will go to the sea shore or some of the assemblies have their own water tanks to conduct the baptism.

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Reply by : hithere   View Profile   Since : 7 Nov 2007 3:39:36 AM Close
dear brother,

when you say whoever do not believe in jesus but has sprinkling, or immersion, or pouring baptism will go to hell, it means believing is more important than baptism. baptism has no importance and baptism is not done before believing. baptism only shows to the people that you are a believer and accepted Jesus as savior. what differnce it makes if a person has sprinkling or immersion or pouring baptism then. we are trying to become more quarrelsome on small things, because look... john and Jesus baptized where there was lot of water. Ok then why we are chosing a tank? much water means what? tank, or pond, or river, sea. if we see how john baptized he baptized Jesus in a river, so we all must go to river. no sea, no pond no tank. ok. we make lot of things of our own and not from Bible. Bible says what? pond, or lake, or river, or sea? what is right? sorry but i am confused about these fights for small things

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Reply by : hithere   View Profile   Since : 7 Nov 2007 3:43:26 AM Close
you know brother many of friends died when fighting with pakistanis in war, but some of them were hearing back to the bible broadcast on radio from doctor woodrow kroll and got saved, but not all had baptism. i cant believe my friends went to hell. so, baptism is not a matter for quarrel.
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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 7 Nov 2007 6:09:54 AM Close
Dear hithere

Where is the point of quarrel, I do not think anybody quarreled here, you asked certain questions and I answered for that, this is a discussion only.

As you said believing in Jesus Christ is more important than water baptism, the fellow soldiers who died had accepted Jesus Christ as their personal saviour and should not have the time of obeying the Lord in water baptism also inherit the salvation, eternal life.

Believers’ baptism is for one who put faith in Christ Jesus.

Believers baptism has importance I have provided 6 points in my earlier posts. Sea, river, pool or water tank is not the point much water is the point, wherever it is available.

Whoever believe in Jesus Christ will be saved and have everlasting life.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 8 Nov 2007 9:02:00 AM Close
‘hithere,’
Part-1

Thank you for telling that you do not know Greek. That is not a requirement, but it becomes helpful to understand the meaning of verses and expressions in the Bible, as it was originally given, by the inspiration of God.

I do not know why you mentioned about your career in the military. On this forum, we are discussing about the Word of God and we do this with reverence that is due to God only. There are no charge sheets, but there are requests for you to substantiate what you wrote using the scriptures and scriptures only.

You still have to provide scriptural justification for writing that sprinkling is a mode of baptism that is given in the Bible. All you gave was a few questions and answers from another website and then asserts that sprinkling is a mode of baptism that is given in the Bible.

You wrote by quoting some one that the root word for sprinkling and pouring is the same. I gave you the Greek words for those two English words. Now I am waiting to hear from you. Please provide that “root word” you mentioned about in connection with sprinkling and pouring.

You also wrote, “i will tell the boss in heaven that i don't know greek. he will say ok. I know. you go enjoy, feed my sheep.” --- Is this a sarcastic remark using God? If so, I ask you to be reverential when you even imply about God in your writings.

Are you saying that the Father and the Son will ask you to feed His sheep with false teaching? A teaching becomes false, if the teacher cannot support it from the Word of God and you have not provided the supporting verses for your assertions.

(To be cont. Part-2)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 8 Nov 2007 9:03:19 AM Close
‘hithere,’
Part-2

You asked me some questions, “questions for you: why old testament was written in hebrew and new testament in greek? Why not in greek only?” --- I have no answer from the Word of God to give. If you have asked me, “why I write in English?,” I could have given you an answer. That is so, because the question is about my writings and not about that of another. In this case, you are asking about God’s word and not about mine. You should ask that question to God. Please do not try to use the art of rhetoric in our discussion.

You also wrote, “you know uncle what Exodus 29:21 says. it is about sprinkling. Leviticus 1:11 says about sprinkling. and lots of bible lines say sprinkling. circumcision is replaced by baptism.” --- Could you show that the baptism in Matthew 28 replaced the consecration of Aaron and his sons as we read in Exodus 29? Could you also show from the New Testament that the sprinkling of the blood of the burnt offering, Leviticus 1:10-13, was replaced by the baptism? You should take some time to expand this using the Word of God, rather than by making assertions.

You also wrote, “lots of bible lines say sprinkling. circumcision is replaced by baptism.” --- Please provide these “lots of Bible lines.” Since there are “lots” of them, one or two will do for our discussion. Otherwise, you are asserting without any authority from the Word of God.

You also wrote, “I can't believe if you say my friend, who had sprinkling baptism has gone to hell.” --- I have more than one question on this. Your posting of 6 Nov 2007 6:57:48 PM was addressed to me and this was the closing statement. Where did I write this? If I did, what was its context? If you cannot show the reference, why did you make this statement, the way you did? Could you show me a single verse that tells that the mode of baptism was by sprinkling? So far, you have not done this.

(To be cont. Part-3)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 8 Nov 2007 9:04:29 AM Close
‘hithere,’
Part-3

If you insist on asserting without providing the verses from the Bible and explaining them, then it will be like the question that was placed to the woman by the serpent, “Is it even so, that God said that, …?” (Genesis 3:1)

Please explain your assertions using the Word of God, so I could learn.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : njmn   View Profile   Since : 13 Nov 2007 1:38:31 AM Close
Baptism was not a command in Matthew 28:19-20 to show to the world that a believer is dead, resurrected and ascencded in the water. Baptism only asserts that a believer has a change of his heart and accepted Jesus as Saviour. That is all the purpose. If it is done by sprinking in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit the purpose is achieved. Even if a person takes water in his fist and sprinkles the purpose is achieved.

Hebrews 9:10 talks about "various ceremonial washings." The word translated "ceremonial washings is a word for baptism (baptismos). The ceremonial washings, or baptisms, that follow are rites of purification in the Old Testament (cf. Heb. 9:13-21).
Compare: Numbers 8:7; 19:19; Leviticus 14:7, Exodus 319:16-21

The word "sprinkle" or some form of it occurs 84 times in the Old Testament and seven times in the New Testament.

Hebrews 9:13-14– Christians are cleansed because they have been sprinkled clean with the blood of Christ.

Hebrews 9:19, 21, and others – Sprinkling clean with blood.

Hebrews 10:22– We can draw near because our hearts have been sprinkled clean.

1 Peter 1:2 – We are sanctified by the sprinkling of Christ’s blood.


The baptism of eunuch was in desert. It was done by Philip (Acts 8:36). There was no river in the desert. Only much water was there.If there had been a river nearby, it would not have been a desert. May be it was a small oasis with a spring.

Cornelius was baptized indoors (Acts 10:48). The Philippian Jailer was baptized indoors at night (Acts 16:33).

Acts 9:18 shows how Paul was baptized. He stood up and was baptized on the spot. It was not immersion, nor was pouring.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 13 Nov 2007 8:37:59 AM Close
‘njmn,’
Part-1

You posted on 13 Nov 2007 01:38:31 the following.

1. You wrote, “Baptism was not a command in Matthew 28:19-20 to show to the world that a believer is dead, resurrected and ascencded in the water. Baptism only asserts that a believer has a change of his heart and accepted Jesus as Saviour. That is all the purpose. If it is done by sprinking in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit the purpose is achieved. Even if a person takes water in his fist and sprinkles the purpose is achieved.” --- Could you show this from the Scriptures, especially from the New Testament? The Holy Spirit gives the doctrines or teachings for the Christians in the New Testament and we learned about this truth from the Lord Jesus Christ in John 14:25-26. About the Old Testament we read that they are shadows of good things to come, they are written for our edification. We read this in 1 Corinthians 10 and in Hebrews.

What are your reasons that prompted you to say, “Baptism was not a command in Matthew 28:19-20?” --- In those two verses, we read the words “go,” “preach,” and “make.” Are these verbs part of a command or just a suggestion? These three verbs “go,” “preach,” and “make” are commands from the Lord Jesus Christ to His disciples. In John 14, the Lord Jesus Christ also said to the same disciples that keeping His command is the sign of those who love Him (John 14:15, 21, 23). Christ also said in Matthew 28:19-20 that making disciples of all nations are by an act and that act is by “baptizing.”

It is also more than an assertion of the change of mind, as you wrote. It is a declaration of the baptizee that he is a follower of Christ as he died in Christ and rose with Him from the death. It is also an act of accepting that person by the Christians as one of them, a follower of Christ, and not a follower of them.

(To be cont. Part-2)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 13 Nov 2007 8:39:25 AM Close
‘njmn,’
Part-2

Where do we read in the New Testament that the baptism can be performed by the sprinkling of water? Alternatively, where do we read that people were baptized by an act of sprinkling, because there was no other facility available? Please do not demand that I should accept your word for it. Please give scriptural support for your assertions.

2. You also wrote, “Hebrews 9:10 talks about "various ceremonial washings…” --- Let us consider this verse in its immediate context. In Hebrews 9:9-10 we read, “…the which is an image for the present time, according to which both the gifts and the sacrifices, unable to perfect as to conscience him that worshipped, are offered, consisting only of meals and drinks and divers washing, ordinances of flesh, imposed until the time of setting things right.” If you look into this washing required by the law in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, you will see that it refers to a complete washing to remove all impurities from what was washed. This is not done by sprinkling, but in running water that is flowing over it. This flowing of water is attained by pouring the water over that which was washed.

In Numbers 8:7, we read about water of purification was to be sprinkled on the Levites to cleanse them. In other places, it was the blood or the oil that was sprinkled. When the Levites were sprinkled with water to cleanse them for the work in the Tabernacle, it was with a water of purification. Are you telling that the present day baptism is to be performed using a ‘water of purification?’ How do we get this water of purification to baptize? In Matthew 28:19-20 or in any other places we do not read about such a ‘water of purification.’ Even you do not hold your own implied teaching, because you wrote that baptism is, “to show to the world that a believer is dead, resurrected, and ascended in the water.”... (Cont.)

(To be cont. Part-3)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 13 Nov 2007 8:40:50 AM Close
‘njmn,’
Part-3

... How do you show about the death and resurrection by having a few water spots on a person, or even a mark of a cross on his/her forehead? I hope that you do not hold baptism with ‘water of purification’ as Roman Catholics and other denominations do.

3. The verses you referred to from the Hebrews deal with the sprinkling of blood and not water. Therefore, it is not about the believer’s baptism that is the interest on this thread.

4. You also wrote about the baptism of the Eunuch as we read in Acts 8:36-39. You chose only to refer Acts 8:36. Why? Is it because in Acts 8:39 we read, “And when they were come up out of the water…?” Why do you say that when both the Eunuch (the one who was baptized) and Philip (the one who performed the baptism) came “out of the water” is to mean that Philip was sprinkling some water on the Eunuch. If one has to “come out of the water,” he/she has to ‘go into the water.’ If one go into the water and come out of the water, then that is not about sprinkling. When water is sprinkled on a person that person does not go into or come out of water, but water was placed on that person by an act of sprinkling. This leaving out of the scriptural facts is a will full deception before God using God’s word. Let me repeat, what we read in Acts 8 is that both the baptizer and the baptizee went into the water for them to come out of it.

5. Acts 10:48 does not say that Cornelius was sprinkled with water, but along with verse 47 it states that Peter commanded others, the Jews that came from Jerusalem with him, to baptize the Gentile Cornelius and others the same way as they were baptized. Their baptism was in much water and not with few drops of water being sprinkled on them. The mode of baptism of the Jews was with “much water” and we read about it John 3:23.

(To be cont. Part-4)

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 13 Nov 2007 8:41:34 AM Close
‘njmn,’
Part-4

6. How did you get the idea that the Philippian Jailor was baptized by sprinkling of the water, in Acts 16? Was water scarce in his house? The wounds of Apostle Paul and Apostle Silas were washed. They were washed clean of all the dried blood, resulted from the beating they suffered during the previous daytime. There was plenty of water. We are told that the Jailor and his family were baptized.

The mode of baptism is to be derived from verses that give us a clear indication of that mode. Acts 8:39 is one of them and you just omitted that from your posting to establish a pre-conceived idea that believer’s baptism is by sprinkling and not by immersion. The mode of baptism is not to be derived from a verse that does not tell us about its mode. This is what you did. You are not cutting the word of truth in a straight line. When one does not divide the word of truth in a straight line, then he/she is engaged in the subversion of the hearers. This we read in 2 Timothy 2:14-15.

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : njmn   View Profile   Since : 13 Nov 2007 9:12:45 AM Close
Ezekiel 36:24-29
24 "For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land.
25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
29 I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses.”

We are saved through washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit which is poured out on us by Jesus.

Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Thus, the sign of cleansing in the Old Testament was sprinkling.

Numbers 19:20
20 But the man who is unclean and does not purify himself, that person shall be cut off from among the assembly, because he has defiled the sanctuary of the LORD. The water of purification has not been sprinkled on him; he is unclean.

This is reiterated again in the New Testament.

Hebrews 10:15-22
15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,"
17 then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."
18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

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Reply by : njmn   View Profile   Since : 13 Nov 2007 9:14:07 AM Close
19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh,
21 and having a High Priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

1 Corinthians 10:2 tells us that the nation of Israel was baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

1 Corinthians 10:1-2
1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,

From clouds come rain, and from God’s Glory Cloud comes his special baptismal rain. Psalm 77:14-20 tells us that as Israel walked through the Red Sea dryshod, between the walls of water, it was raining on them.

Psalm 77:14-20
14 You are the God who does wonders; you have declared Your strength among the peoples.
15 You have with Your arm redeemed Your people, the sons of Jacob and Joseph. Selah
16 The waters saw You, O God; the waters saw You, they were afraid; the depths also trembled.
17 The clouds poured out water; the skies sent out a sound; your arrows also flashed about.
18 The voice of Your thunder was in the whirlwind; the lightnings lit up the world; the earth trembled and shook.
19 Your way was in the sea, your path in the great waters, and Your footsteps were not known.
20 You led Your people like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron.

1 Peter 3:18-21
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

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Reply by : njmn   View Profile   Since : 13 Nov 2007 9:14:57 AM Close
21 There is also an antitype (symbol) which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

When Noah was in the ark, who went under the water and who was sprinkled? When Moses marched through the Red Sea, who went under the water and who was sprinkled?

Numbers 4:1-4
1 Then the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying:
2 “Take a census of the sons of Kohath from among the children of Levi, by their families, by their fathers' house,
3 from thirty years old and above, even to fifty years old, all who enter the service to do the work in the tabernacle of meeting.
4 This is the service of the sons of Kohath in the tabernacle of meeting, relating to the most holy things:”

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Reply by : njmn   View Profile   Since : 13 Nov 2007 9:20:54 AM Close
) "Sprinkle" (Greek-English Lexicon of the N. T. by Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich. Page 741)

"The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God." (Hebrews 9:13-14)

"When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people." (Hebrews 9:21)

n the Assembly of Divines, held at Westminster, in 1643, it was keenly debated, whether immersion or sprinkling should be adopted; 25 voted for sprinkling, and 24 voted for immersion; and even this small majority was obtained at the earnest request of Dr. Lightfoot, who had acquired great influence in that assembly. Sprinkling is therefore the general practice of this country. Many Christians, however, especially the Baptists reject it. The Greek Church universally adheres to immersion. Art. Bapt. Vol. III, pp. 245-246. (Edinburgh Cyclopedia).

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 13 Nov 2007 1:41:09 PM Close
'njmn,'

Baptism is not for cleaning an unclean person. It is an act of obedience to the Lord's command. When we are baptized we also show our love to the One who saved us.

Where do the mode of baptism is told as 'sprinkling?' A simple question to answer from the Word of God. You should make no guessings or assertions. What you have to remember is that there was no "believer's baptism" in the Old Testament. Could you do that?

Shalom Malekim!!!

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Reply by : njmn   View Profile   Since : 13 Nov 2007 2:26:19 PM Close
Where do the mode of baptism is told as 'immersion?' or "pouring"? A simple question to answer from the Word of God. You should make no guessings or assertions. What you have to remember is that there was no "believer's baptism" in the Old Testament. Could you do that?

Do not imply that there is only one meaning for 'baptizo' imply all the meanings that Greek tells you.

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Reply by : George P. Koshy   View Profile   Since : 14 Nov 2007 8:03:13 AM Close
'njmn,'

Your question is already been answered in the two thread that is going on. You have not provided the verses from the New Testament that tell "sprinkling" is a mode of "baptism." I have provided the verses that tell "pouring" is a mode of "baptism."

Shalom Malekim!!!

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