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# 01448 :  "AGE OF PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY"
Dear readers,

++++++++++++++++++++

John MacArthur in one of his commentary says.. "so I believe that God, prior to the “age of accountability” treats them [children] as “innocent.” It doesn’t mean that they are not fallen; it doesn’t mean that they are not sinful — it does mean that God mercifully treats them as “innocent” in spite of that, and He has to exercise grace to do that, just as He exercises grace to save those who believe."

+++++++++++++++++++++

Trust we also believe this. But please answer to my below questions based on the scripture..

> Any passages in the OT & NT that really supporting to an 'age of personal accountability'?

> Any passages in the OT & NT that supporting children being guiltless before God and that God saves children who have not reached this age by a means other than repentance and faith and trust in Jesus Christ?

> Are all children (including the children of unbelievers) innocent and safe before God prior to the 'age of accountability'?

Psalm 51:5 " Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me"

We all know that death spread to all men through the sin of Adam . He being our representative in the covenant of life, and his sin spreading to all people, thereby resulting in everyone being conceived in sin as David proclaims, then all people everywhere reach the age of accountability at conception..right?

Please don't think that I am supporting RC's "Infant baptism" but these questions are really puzzling. This thought has been bugging me for a couple of days. I am asking probably some stupid questions, sorry, but I want some understanding on this subject.

Your brother in Christ,
Jimple.

Post by : jimple  View Profile    since : 31 Oct 2007


Reply by : samuel.v.j   View Profile   Since : 31 Oct 2007 5:11:01 AM Close
Dear Jimple in Christ,

I dont have a proper answer , but I hope the verses below may have an answer
Matthew 18
1At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the GREATEST in the kingdom of heaven?
2And Jesus called a LITTLE CHILD unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as LITTLE CHILDREN, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this LITTLE CHILD, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19 (New International Version)

The Little Children and Jesus
13Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
14Jesus said, "Let the LITTLE CHILDREN come to me, and do not hinder them, for the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN BELONGS TO SUCH AS THESE."
15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.


Yours in Christ
Samuel.V.J

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Reply by : wilson609   View Profile   Since : 31 Oct 2007 5:13:22 AM Close
i believe that children who die before they reach the age of accountability will find a place in heaven.the basis for me to believe so is 2 samuel,chapter 2,specially verse 23"but now he is dead,why should i fast? Can i bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me"
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Reply by : wilson609   View Profile   Since : 31 Oct 2007 5:15:44 AM Close
pl read the ref given as 2 samuel chap 12 instead of chap 2
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Reply by : jimple   View Profile   Since : 1 Nov 2007 1:12:19 AM Close
Dear brethren in Christ,

Thanks for your responses, but I want to hear more on this subject from the scripture.

I believe, these verses Mathew 18:1-6, speaks about the the importance of humility. Matthew 18:1-6 and 19:13-14 is where Jesus uses children as teaching aids to communicate principles of humility, lovableness, faith, innocence etc to his disciples and also assuring them that unless they were converted and made like little children, they could not enter his kingdom.

These passages cannot be used with any authority for this subject because the age of the children is not specified, and because Jesus is not saying that the children are saved, but simply that the kingdom of God must be received as with a child like perspective.

And regarding 2 Samuel 12 there is not enough scriptural support here for the doctrine that children who die go to heaven. It may certainly includes our grief following the death of a loved one and if we read the entire passage, we can see that it plainly deals with God’s judgment on sin.

I too would like to believe that all children who die go to heaven. It is completely with the Lord’s power to do this. It is true that this is a subject for which we should not be adamant or dogmatic. We can say that God ALWAYS does what is right. We are certain that God is loving, holy, merciful, and gracious and He cares for young children and those who are mentally handicapped, since they were not mentally capable of understanding their sinful state and their need for the Savior. We can conlcude that whatever He does, it is ALWAYS right and good.

But whenever we hear some statements like "We are all accountable by birth not by age. And if some were not accountable, then none would be accountable" and "Nothing has been mentioned in the Bible about any particular age as a "cut off" point", we should have the answer to prove that what we believe is right.

Hope to hear from you more on this subject....

Yours in Him,
Jimple.

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Reply by : samuel.v.j   View Profile   Since : 1 Nov 2007 2:07:49 AM Close
Dear Br.Jimple in Christ,

While we compare Mathew ch: 18 & 19 <<as teaching aids to communicate principles of humility, lovableness, faith, innocence etc to his disciples and also assuring them that unless they were converted and made like little children, they could not enter his kingdom. >>
Is not our Lord Jesus Christ making us aware about the innocence of Little children, dont stop them, <<for the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN BELONGS TO SUCH AS THESE.">> What ever caste , creed, colour, religion as per my view based on the above verse will go to heaven, if they are taken in thier very young age. When it comes to an age of getting understand the truth,the belief of Salvation as per the scriptures is applicable.


Yours in Christ
Samuel.V.J

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Reply by : wilson609   View Profile   Since : 1 Nov 2007 2:19:48 AM Close
dear bro jimple,
i am interested to know what you understand about the statement david made,in 2 samuel 12:23 " but now he is dead,why should i fast? Can i bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me". daivid says very confidently that he shall go to the place where the child had gone.which place do you think david is refering to emphatically?
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Reply by : jimple   View Profile   Since : 1 Nov 2007 4:46:25 AM Close
Dear brother,

+++what you understand about the statement david made,in 2 samuel 12:23 " but now he is dead,why should i fast? Can i bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me"+++++

I too believe that indicates the child would be in "paradise" and David would join him there when he dies. But here there is no enough scriptural support for the doctrine that children who die go to heaven becoz even the unbelievers in a time of great grief, expressed hope of being with his or her deceased child. "I shall join him/her there when I die" - this is a very common statement (even from the unbelievers) following the death of a loved one. Moreover we know this section of Scripture deals with the death of David’s son as a result of the adulterous sin of David and Bathsheba. So, we can see that it plainly deals with God’s judgment on sin. So,can we view this as a theological promise for the salvation of infants?

I had a debate with one of my colleague who is an RC. They keep on saying that "The age of accountability is a created doctrine with no biblical foundation". So, we should prove the same biblically and I am too young to debate on this subject from the scripture. So, I invite intellectual feedbacks from all readers on this topic especially from TomJ, John Miller, GPK, Sambudhanoor etc and ofcourse further comments from Samuel.V.J & Wilson609.

Yours in Him,
Jimple

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Reply by : josbr   View Profile   Since : 1 Nov 2007 6:15:17 AM Close
We may include the following verse in our discussion, particularly the statement about children.

“For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.” (1 Corinthians 7:14)

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Reply by : sambudhanoor   View Profile   Since : 1 Nov 2007 7:21:10 AM Close
Dear Jimple

What Wilson said is correct about 2 Sam 12 23.

Even if David says those words in his time of grief, it has been recorded in the Holy Bible, which is the God breathed scriptures.

In Deuteronomy 1: 39 Moses says that Children who have no knowledge of good and evil shall enter in the promised land cannan, which is a shadow of heaven.

Deu 1:39 'Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.

There is an age of choosing good and refusing evil.

Isa 7:15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good.

Our Lord’s sacrificial death was for the whole world, the condition is whoever believe will be saved, but who do not have the age of belief (choosing) will also be saved, if they die before the age of choosing, this is what I understand.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Yours in Christ

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Reply by : samuel.v.j   View Profile   Since : 1 Nov 2007 8:20:59 AM Close
Dear brethren in Christ,

As I have written before all children those who are incapable of understanding the truth and have died as per Mathew 18 & 19 KINGDOM OF HEAVEN BELONGS TO THEM.


But for a discussion as Jimple stated and as I was going through one of the sites related
can a child born in this world of sin can go to heaven.
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/account.html
Proverbs 20:11
• "Even a Child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right."
Psalms 51:5-7
• "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
• Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
• Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow."
Psalms 58:3-5
• "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
• Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
• Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.
2nd Kings 2:23-24
• "And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
• And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."
Romans 5:12-14
• "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned,
• (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not Imputed when there is no law."
The only way that man could escape this imputed sin which brings death, is through Christ. It cannot be escaped through non-accountability (we are all accountable), it cannot be escaped by good works (there is none good), it cannot be escaped by obedience

Contd/-
Samuel

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Reply by : samuel.v.j   View Profile   Since : 1 Nov 2007 8:24:26 AM Close
Contd/-
1st Corinthians 15:21-22
• "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
• For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
Since this is undoubtedly true, then from the womb, we are all sinners. Those people who say babies don't have any sin are lacking knowledge of God's laws and truths. Since there are no exceptions to God's law, "the wages of sin is death," there can be no (theorized) non-accountability clause. Unlike the laws of men, the laws of God don't bend. There is none righteous God says, no not one! He didn't say that there are none righteous except babies. Those are the thoughts of men, not of God! There is none righteous, and that includes children (despite what some may claim). Romans 5:12 says: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." It doesn't say "all except for children," it says all.
When God said in Genesis 18 that if there were 10 righteous people in Sodom, He wouldn't destroy them, some professing Christians obviously think God was lying, because they insist the children there had to be righteous in God's eyes! Not so! They were burned in the city right along with the older people (revisionist accounting notwithstanding). God saved only Lot and his two daughters whom 'He had chosen' to Save. None of the rest were righteous in God's sight! Did God say get the Children out before I rain fire and brimstone, or did God bring out Lot and his house only? The truth is, over 99 percent of the scriptures has to be either ignored, wrested, or tossed aside, in order to hold to the doctrine that Children are somehow automatically accounted righteous before God.
Job 25:4
• "How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a Woman?"

Contd/-
Samuel.V.J

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Reply by : samuel.v.j   View Profile   Since : 1 Nov 2007 8:27:30 AM Close
Contd/-
Romans 9:11
• "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil.."
In Romans chapter 9:8-16 Rebecca had twins in her womb. And though the children had not yet been born, "having done neither good or evil," God called saying which one would be chosen. As it is written in verse 13,(Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated) And in verse 15 it says as God had said unto Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. In verse 16 it says So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. Shall we argue with God saying it is unrighteous of you to call Esau hated even before he was born? God forbid!

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/account.html- The credit goes to this link


This are some of the points in the link, there is a adverse statement in this link than our thinking. As br. Jimple stated brethren who are well versed please present your views.


Yours in Christ
Samuel.V.J

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Reply by : tinka   View Profile   Since : 8 Nov 2007 4:08:34 AM Close
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

from this can't we say that infants or babies whose conscience are not developed till certain age remains outside to the criteria of condemnation?

sincerely in Christ

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