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# 01476 :  treatment for infertility
is it sin that doing ivf treatment for infertility???
Post by : jasmin  View Profile    since : 14 Dec 2007


Reply by : jasmin   View Profile   Since : 14 Dec 2007 7:38:06 AM Close
please give some more information about ivf is sin or not......
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Reply by : gracey   View Profile   Since : 14 Dec 2007 8:17:46 AM Close
I have a friend who has gone through it. The IVF process is not embryos developed from another man or woman. The sperm or eggs from the husband and wife are taken artificially, and they were developed in a lab and deposited back to the uterus. When a husband or a wife does not have healthy sperm or egg, the doctor will advice the couple to receive the sperm or eggs from donors from the donors bank.

The IVF has only 20% success rate. That means the process can fail 80%. The emotional trauma that the couple goes through it is very high. It is expensive also.

In the place of IVF, consider adopting a baby. You will find a great joy in that.

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Reply by : jasmin   View Profile   Since : 14 Dec 2007 9:05:48 AM Close
i never mean that sperm and egg are donating...
some persons having problem on egg and sperm.in that case only doctor adivce to buy from donating bank.but here i asked about the sperm and egg of the couples only.not othersss dear.dear sister grace,ur friend succes on that process ivf????are they belivers or not??
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Reply by : jasmin   View Profile   Since : 14 Dec 2007 9:10:15 AM Close
sorry i had one mistake in the above replay.
please read like this i never not mean the sperm and egg are donating.only husband and wife no oother person including this one to donating..some people misunderstanding that ivf means donating practise.but some situation is like that.but here am asking about the ivf of husband and wifes egg and sperm...
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Reply by : mom23   View Profile   Since : 14 Dec 2007 12:53:39 PM Close
Dear Jasmin,
You did bring a very interesting topic to the table. Personally I feel, it isn't all black or white in this case.
I am just thinking out loud when I write the following but....
It is actually very easy to "pish-tosh" away a couple's emotions in having a family. It is very painful and very hard to deal with the fact that one has difficulty in having children.
Then there are the folks near and far, who get some strange enjoyment from making sordid, hurtful remarks. It is only something a couple going through it can truly understand and it would take tremendous faith on their part to trust God to fulfil His plan with their family.
Yes! there are women mentioned in the scriptures who were barren, but that was during a time when science didn't offer some options...so I have wondered, can we say with confidence then that if they were in a time when there were options presented to them...they wouldn't have taken them?
But I also see the consequence of some decisions like Sarah, who chose to have a surrogate, and Rachel who also chose this path...But IVF is technically different from surrogacy.
But IVF is equally emotionally wrenching...and the chances of it happening are low etc. But having a child a normal way also has equal odds against it...chances of birth defects/risks etc. are there also.
Studies indicate that there is a slight increase in babies conceived through IVF being born with birth-defects vs. normally conceived babies...BUT the question whether it is the IVF treatment itself is not proven, because it could be a hundred things that could have caused it, which also includes the donors' gene pool.

But, please, maybe some of our fellow brethren/sisters who have a better understanding of this topic, not only scripturally but also it's implications in daily life, could shed some light. Because it is something that even I am not able to fully fathom and so cannot just blithely classify it under "sin". Maybe I am worng...if so please help me understand.

A fellow sister in Christ.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 14 Dec 2007 4:51:10 PM Close
I am not an expert on this subject. But I empathize with the emotional trauma it can create going through such situations.

My humble request to the contributors would be to be sympathetic and not judgmental. Unless you have the mind of God there is a possibility that you could be giving the wrong advice, whether by supporting or condemning. You need to seek out godly Christians who are trained to give the right counsel. If you seek out such counsel (not on this forum since you may not find such qualified people readily – unless I am mistaken.) you may glean more wisdom in making the right decision.

In any case, those giving counsel please be sensitive to the subject. I know a young lady who lost her first baby in the first trimester still grieves over that and even after she gave birth to another child would take the day off / stay home thinking of that lost child who was only few weeks old and just remained in her womb.

Parents are very sensitive to these issues as mom23 mentioned, and let’s us be very careful sharing our ‘wisdom’. But those well-qualified please feel free to do so after much prayer.

Tom J

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 14 Dec 2007 4:58:27 PM Close
After the above posting I found this article on a web-site.. I think it gives some biblical perspectives and again proper counsel would be needed in any case.

Quote -----

In-vitro fertilization is the process of joining a sperm and egg together outside of a woman's body, then placing the fertilized egg, or zygote, in the woman's body so that she can become pregnant. This is a controversial issue among Christians, and the Bible does not address it. Therefore, it becomes a matter of conviction from the Holy Spirit.

God values every human life; He creates and plans for every birth. The Bible says, "You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body and knit me together in my mother's womb....You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion, as I was woven together in the dark of the womb" (Psalm 139:13,15, NLT). Because the fertilized egg is a living human, there are some moral implications to consider. Often couples decide to harvest more eggs than they plan to use, which means that some of the embryos end up being destroyed, or frozen for later use. However, if the couple conceives immediately, they may never need to use the frozen embryos, which would then end up being destroyed. The Bible does not give us permission to destroy innocent human life – this would be murder.


Contd.

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Reply by : tomj   View Profile   Since : 14 Dec 2007 4:59:35 PM Close
Quotes from the web-site continues....


One way to remedy this problem is to only harvest the eggs that the couple plans to implant in the womb. There is, of course, a high risk that at least some of the fertilized eggs will miscarry, but this way it would be a natural expulsion instead of purposeful destruction. This also means that the woman may have to go through additional procedures and expense to have more eggs harvested later on.

Sometimes people, not wanting to wait for God's perfect timing, get pregnant by in-vitro fertilization out of impatience. The Bible tells us that yielding to the Holy Spirit will give us patience (Galatians 5:22), and so we must be careful not to take God's work into our own hands when He may have other purposes for us. A couple should not get involved in in-vitro fertilization without doing it prayerfully and being mindful of the will of God. "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect" (Romans 12:2, NAS).

Recommended Resource: Empty Womb, Aching Heart: Hope and Help for Those Struggling with Infertility by Marlo Schalesky.


Quotes ended...

Quoted by Tom J

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Reply by : wilson609   View Profile   Since : 14 Dec 2007 7:07:21 PM Close
i think the best option for a couple not blessed with children is to go in for adoption.why not help an orphan find a new home and new life.thee are millions of abandoned children.i don't think its possible to find biblical sanction for everything that we do in life,take for instances the use of airconditioners and other modern day electronic gadgets.my using an airconditinner is making the life of my neighbours life miserable,and causing global warming,leading to the destruction of our planet,making it unfit for our future generations.if IVF is sinful what about these gadgets? should'nt we be discarding them
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Reply by : jasmin   View Profile   Since : 14 Dec 2007 8:35:12 PM Close
dear brother and sister,
thanks for giving some information about ivf.every person must realize one thing that we can judge a thing sooo easily but if it happen to our life wat will be the ultimate decision??we can say to other person u please do like this like that...but we r not thinking at the same time if it will happen in my life..so think like that way and do replay.
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Reply by : kumbanadan   View Profile   Since : 17 Dec 2007 4:43:21 AM Close
what asdpoilkj is said is correct scripturally.
Conceiving & child bearing is not intended as a mechanical act. In God's plan it is out of husband & wife's joining the body and becoming one through an act which is pure in their relationship. Not through any other means.
IVF is a big business these days. Egg & sperm banks give you sperm at a cost incase you cant afford to have your own.
IF Sperm and Egg fertilized outside the body could be developed into a child through some manufacturing process (for lady's who are unable to develop the child in the womb) (and this is only an extension of outside fertilization), these people would have made production lines for manufacturing children. Ofcourse some people hire womb these days!
Have you thought how some one will secrete a male sperm for fertilization?
IVF is totally un-biblical!
As asdpoilkj pointed out, there were barren wombs which God closed; there were barren wombs which God then opened. In God's plan some wombs may remain as barren, that too can be for his glory.
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Reply by : beracah   View Profile   Since : 17 Dec 2007 5:42:24 AM Close

Though not directly related to the subject of this thread, with apologies, may I request the
Forum to consider the Biblical guidance on the following also:

1. Organ transplants,
2. Bye-pass surgeries,
3. Artificial limbs,
4. Use of Heart / Lung Machines,
5. Dialysis &
6. Blood Transfusions?

Thanks.

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 17 Dec 2007 7:29:00 AM Close
As I understand

1. Organ transplants,
2. Bye-pass surgeries,
3. Artificial limbs,
4. Use of Heart / Lung Machines,
5. Dialysis &
6. Blood Transfusions?

are not sinful because they are not coming under the criterion of 'adultery' or 'fornication'. Conception through IVF procedure is directly related with either 'adultery' or 'fornication' or 'killing'. The greater probability is with "KILLING". It is also expensive. The estimated cost is $100,000.00

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Reply by : jasmin   View Profile   Since : 17 Dec 2007 7:52:15 AM Close
dear bother,
u said that ivf is sin.i agree with it.but some fact u misunderstood.cost of ivf is 125000 now in india.but so many brotheren chiristian couples are doing this one.i am not a person who havent child.i have child.but now a days this a most important in science.so i made a topic here.
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Reply by : jasmin   View Profile   Since : 17 Dec 2007 7:54:01 AM Close
why other person not come here to make repaly here?????
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Reply by : moses2006   View Profile   Since : 17 Dec 2007 8:02:33 AM Close
In my opinion, there is nothing wrong before God, in prayerfully considering and proceeding with IVF or any other medical techniques, when a couple has exhausted natural ways of conception.

People who go for such techniques often do so as a last resort. They are going through a lot of emotional trauma and social isolation for being childless.

Other people who condemn these artificial techniques, forget that, it is God who gives and sustains life. No matter what the procedure and how the procedure is done, if God does not bless that procedure by ensuring CONCEPTION and LIFE, its not going to amount to anything.

As TomJ wrote, one has to go with these things with the leading of the Holy Spirit. Also, conceived embryos should not be voluntarily destroyed. Implant all conceived embryos and allow God to give life or destroy life.

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Reply by : asdpoilkj   View Profile   Since : 17 Dec 2007 8:23:43 AM Close
If it costs Rs. 125000.00 in India that is fine; but in US it costs more:

" Another way to look at this is to consider the money spent per delivery. This is calculated by adding up the cost of medical services for a group of women and dividing it by the number of women who give birth. As the average IVF cycle charges are between $10,000 and $15,000, analysts have reported costs of about $35,000 per delivery in younger women, while medical costs per delivery are over $132,000 for women over 40.

Source: http://yourtotalhealth.ivillage.com/duration-cost-ivf-treatment.html

Quote from the above post:

" Implant all conceived embryos and allow God to give life or destroy life."

If all the embryos are implanted there will be several children for one mother. A multiple embryo transfer also increases the risk of a multiple pregnancy. Any multiple pregnancy carries an increased risk of miscarriage(s), premature labor and premature birth as well as an increased financial and emotional cost.

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Reply by : mom23   View Profile   Since : 17 Dec 2007 9:07:48 AM Close
I have a couple of questions...

Dear "asdpoikj"

1. How is IVF, "not biblical" according to you ? How is IVF "under the category of adultery and fornication" according to you ?

2. You mentioned verses in the scriptures that talked about the barreness of a woman.
I believe that God uses various ways to fulfill his purposes and not all maybe understood by us.
Can you say with complete confidence that IVF is definitely not a way that God uses science "to open up a womb" ?...because science does explain in 90% cases why "the womb is closed".

3. This very science is also used by us to "open" and "close" the womb, i.e to decide when it is convenient for us to recieve "the fruit of the womb...His reward".
So how does then one become ok to do and the other not ?

4. You mentioned various things that go wrong with IVF, but can you tell us the percentage of times mistakes have been made in a given period ? Because evrything has risks...even a normal pregnancy has so many, many risks that doctors tell you.So bearing in mind the emotional needs of a couple to have a child, how does cost and risk outweigh the need for having a child in their lives?

5. you mentioned various women in the bible whom the Lord chose them to be barren...my question once again...can we say with complete confidence that these women if they lived in a time where procedures like IVF was there, they would not use it or try it?

MAybe you can help me out...

Bro. Moses2006,
You made a point we are all forgetting...that whatever we decide, if it isn't in God's will, it won't happen, no matter what you try...thank you, sir. Because that is the bottom line.

Dear Bro.Kumbanadan,
I don't think IVF would apply to women who absolutely cannot carry a pregnancy to term in their womb for "n" no.of reasons. But there are so many other parameters in a human body that prohibit a couple from having children naturally. And the question was "only" if the donors were the couple themselves..not outside sources.

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Reply by : fellowchristian   View Profile   Since : 19 Dec 2007 1:58:38 AM Close
Our Lord has compassionately told us to cast our burden upon Him.
He is Lord of everything.

In gospels we read of a woman who had been sick for 12 year. She had spent everything she had for the sake of a cure of her ailment. Finally she was got healed from Jesus our Lord.
We find that our Lord has compassionately consoled her, but never condemned for spending all her belongings for all the treatment she had been going after.
He knew how much she was worried of her sickness.

The agony and frustration of couples who haven’t got an offspring of their own is something beyond others can assume.
IVF is a treatment procedure for unsuccessful couples who fail to get conceived in normal circumstances.
Either the man or the woman might be having problem to release healthy sperm or egg; or there might be other physiological factors that inhibits normal pregnancy.
Why should somebody frown at them for seeking treatments?
Jesus healed deaf and blind.
Are we not going to undergo surgery implanting both artificial and 'live' body organs?
Sure, we have to look into the matter if we are going against God's will.
Recently I have read an article of a Christian lady who is not blessed with an offspring in their wedded bliss. She and her husband opted for adoption. This article might give some insight and consolation for some couples who would be searching for some guideline.
You may read it at:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/december/21.22.html

'Fellowchristian"

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Reply by : johnmiller   View Profile   Since : 19 Dec 2007 7:54:49 AM Close
Dear readers,

I think that in such a discussion as this, those who feel the need to conceal their real identities should divulge their sex.

I would not care to comment on this matter in an open discussion but I feel that Tomj's posts were wise.

Your brother in Christ,

John

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Reply by : anne1   View Profile   Since : 19 Dec 2007 1:30:05 PM Close
Dear Jasmin,

Infertility is one of the torturous experiences a couple can through which will test their faith & marriage. It affects them emotionally, physically & spiritually. It is very hard to fathom the myriad of emotions a couple goes through for others who have not experienced this problem. Decisions they make are their choice and ultimately it is between them and God.

I can personally attest to these as I went through it for many years. Even in my case IVF was one of the options that was given with no guarantees. Somehow I felt very uncomfortable at the thought of conceiving our child outside my womb and in a petri dish even though it would be my husband & mine. I personally declined that offer as I felt I was playing God in that situation. This was my decision and mine alone.

When we had to make the tough decision of not going for treatment, a question was put forth to me. Do you believe that our God needs our help to conceive a child? Can’t he do it without any help when it is His time? That got me thinking. I was faced with 2 options – 1. Go for all kind of treatments that was available, 2. Choose to believe God. And I chose the second one. I realized that I could not dictate to God the time when He will choose to give me a child. I just needed to wait it out if it is in His will. I had come to the realization that I was facing the possibility of growing old childless. This was a scary scenario and one unimaginable for my husband. But I had to choose to believe God in this situation. It was not easy. It is a very hard pill to swallow. But God was faithful and He blessed us with a son without any help after years of waiting. My son is a proof that medical science can be wrong and God is the ultimate Jehovah Jireh.

Hope this has helped your query.

God Bless

Ann

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Reply by : fellowchristian   View Profile   Since : 20 Dec 2007 12:31:38 AM Close
Sister Anne1 has gone through a similar situation and her view is surely some guidelines to many others.
She has said,
"Infertility is one of the torturous experiences a couple can through which will test their faith & marriage. It affects them emotionally, physically & spiritually. It is very hard to fathom the myriad of emotions a couple goes through for others who have not experienced this problem. Decisions they make are their choice and ultimately it is between them and God."
For her IVF was not an option that she could comfortably accept. She opted to take it to God and she has been blessed with a child.
Praise the Lord.
But I have a question.
There can be cancer patients who opt to deny medical treatments.
There can be kidney patients who won't accept dialysis procedurer or transplantations.
There are cults who profess faith that deny any kind of medical treatments.
Will some Christian doctors, please explain, do you refrain from offering IVF treatment to a couple whom you have dignosed as incapable of conceiving in natural process but conceivable through IVF.
The achievements of medical science too are blessings of God to the mankind.

Fellowchristian

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Reply by : mom23   View Profile   Since : 20 Dec 2007 9:12:17 AM Close
Thank you sister Ann for sharing your experiences and your beliefs without being condescending or judgemental...It takes humility and faith. I was very moved by your short testimony, dear sister....it would be a pleasure & honor to meet you, if not in this world, then in the presence of our Lord.
I say this because sometimes fellow christians like you can, unknowingly, be an example of faith to those of us who have a long way to go in this path. It isn't an easy path, that is why it is narrow. Thank you.
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Reply by : mom23   View Profile   Since : 20 Dec 2007 9:36:43 AM Close
I had a quick question though...I did bring it up before...
But I see some who feel very strongly about not going ahead with IVF as a choice, when couples are unable to bear children. They said to believe in God's plan...I think the quote was..

"It is a substitution for God's plan and going against God's will and asking God to follow man's path."

I can empathize with that statement.
But let me ask this...when we feel so strongly about using methods/technology that are not the Lord's but man's...why do we not have the same emotion or thought when it comes to birth control ?
I ask this because in my mind it is along the same line, they both have to do with the family and familial decisions/choices regarding children...basically using man made technology/science to have control over our environment/family etc.

So why is one (IVF) all about trusting God's plan and God's ways for the family and the other (birth-control) all about our convenience (finance being one determining factor) or not so much God's plan???
Maybe somebody can shed some light on this.....

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Reply by : fellowchristian   View Profile   Since : 20 Dec 2007 9:57:42 AM Close
Commenting on the procedures of 'IVF',one brother has stated,
"It is not sin if husband's ONE sperm alone could join with ONE egg of a women."
Followed with the statement he asks,
"Is it possible?"
Then he himself gives the answer, "NO".

Let an expert doctor doing IVFs answer that question.

We must not be in a haste to make declarations and codemnations.

Let us bow down in reverence so that the wisdom that comes out from the fear of God may lead us.

'fellowchristian'


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Reply by : fellowchristian   View Profile   Since : 21 Dec 2007 12:07:21 AM Close
We have to consider the fact that we are dealing with a problem that is well said by
sister 'Anne 1':
"Infertility is one of the torturous experiences a couple can through which will test their faith & marriage. It affects them emotionally, physically & spiritually. It is very hard to fathom the myriad of emotions a couple goes through for others who have not experienced this problem. Decisions they make are their choice and ultimately it is between them and God."
We shouldnot be like friend's of Job who came to console him.
One brother emphatically stated that it is not possible in 'IVF' doing with one sperm and one egg.
Again he himself quoted a journel where it is stated, "...two common ART procedures -- IVF and intracytoplasmic sperm injection (ICSI), a technique for injecting a single sperm directly into an egg."
It seems that he finds 'masking truths' for the sake of arguement is an acceptable norm.
When we keep silece to the question of birth control for our convenience sake, and fight against medical procedures that might help a couple going through tortourous situation, please do it after reading Mat 23:4.

In Christian love,
"fellowchristian'

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Reply by : anne1   View Profile   Since : 21 Dec 2007 1:02:31 PM Close
Dear Sis. Judy,

Thank you for your kind words. I hope to meet you too. Who knows we may have already met.
Regarding birth control even I have the same concern. Is it in God’s will to use any kind of birth control? I have an uncle & aunt who has 6-7 kids each and well provided. They do not believe in birth control. But here I am who is unable to have any more children, as it will put my health in absolute risk. Again it is choice of believing God and taking him at his word. I think it is a couples’ decision between themselves and God, as ultimately each one has to answer for their own decisions.

God Bless

Ann

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